Starfuryt
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Ukraine issued grounding request for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:36 pm

I haven't seen this posted anywhere. Seeing how none of these frames are physically in Ukraine I'm not sure what the practical consequences of these are.
Also how does this further impact Antonov's ability to obtain russian made part to keep their aircraft including the An-225 flying (which is currently undergoing yet another overhaul it seems)

http://www.uawire.org/ukrainian-court-i ... n-aircraft

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Starfuryt
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Re: Ukraine issued arrest warrant for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:08 pm

Hence why I'm wondering what the practical consequences of these warrants are. I checked fr24 and there are no volga dnepr aircraft in Ukraine, hence the warrants can't be enforced.
Given the relationship between Russia and Ukraine I can only assume that "safety issues" are political theatre. But then again being Russian my opinion on the matter is highly biased.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Ukraine issued arrest warrant for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:22 pm

Political theatre does sound about right, will probably serve little purpose.
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redzeppelin
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Re: Ukraine issued arrest warrant for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:12 pm

To paraphrase the article as I understood it: Volga-Dnepr contracted An-124 maintenance to a German company, and Antonov is saying that company isn't properly certified to do the work. So Ukraine, at request of the manufacturer, is taking action against the airworthiness of the aircraft. This could get interesting.
 
ei146
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Re: Ukraine issued arrest warrant for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:59 pm

The article says:
It is specified that the aircraft were arrested at the request of the Ukrainian Antonov Concern, which claims that the airworthiness of the aircraft was renewed with a violation. According to the lawyers, the Russian Federal Air Transport Agency illegally certified the German company AMTES for the aircraft maintenance.


So for my understanding this is more a fight about who has oversight over the type certificate? These are Soviet build planes and both Ukrainian authorities with the Antonov Concern and Russian authorities now claim ownership?
How convenient that Volga-Dnepr terminated SALIS participation. Else that Ukrainian move would really piss of some EU countries. Still I don't know if German or other authories in the EU really want to play a role in this fight and really enforce such a warrant.
 
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zeke
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Re: Ukraine issued arrest warrant for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:00 pm

redzeppelin wrote:
To paraphrase the article as I understood it: Volga-Dnepr contracted An-124 maintenance to a German company, and Antonov is saying that company isn't properly certified to do the work. So Ukraine, at request of the manufacturer, is taking action against the airworthiness of the aircraft. This could get interesting.


I think that will effectively ground them from any commercial work, and may even see their ability to transit or land in different countries revoked.

I think the Ukraine is the state for AN124 certification.
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ei146
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Re: Ukraine issued arrest warrant for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:06 pm

zeke wrote:
redzeppelin wrote:
To paraphrase the article as I understood it: Volga-Dnepr contracted An-124 maintenance to a German company, and Antonov is saying that company isn't properly certified to do the work. So Ukraine, at request of the manufacturer, is taking action against the airworthiness of the aircraft. This could get interesting.


I think that will effectively ground them from any commercial work, and may even see their ability to transit or land in different countries revoked.

I think the Ukraine is the state for AN124 certification.


Not so fast. As I understand it now this is more or less a civil law dispute between private companies. This warrant was issued by an Ukrainian court according to Ukrainian law on request of a private company. So probably the planes will be impoundend when they are in the Ukraine. I do not think that other countries will do the same automatically, as Ukrainian law is valid in the Ukraine only.

The Russian airline has to follow the orders of its Russian authorities. If they say, the aircraft is airworthy, who cares what Antonov says. Did the Ukrainian aviation authorities say anything in the matter? Did other international aviation authorities have a reason to question the Russian certificate?
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Ukraine issued arrest warrant for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:34 pm

ei146 wrote:
zeke wrote:
redzeppelin wrote:
To paraphrase the article as I understood it: Volga-Dnepr contracted An-124 maintenance to a German company, and Antonov is saying that company isn't properly certified to do the work. So Ukraine, at request of the manufacturer, is taking action against the airworthiness of the aircraft. This could get interesting.


I think that will effectively ground them from any commercial work, and may even see their ability to transit or land in different countries revoked.

I think the Ukraine is the state for AN124 certification.


Not so fast. As I understand it now this is more or less a civil law dispute between private companies. This warrant was issued by an Ukrainian court according to Ukrainian law on request of a private company. So probably the planes will be impoundend when they are in the Ukraine. I do not think that other countries will do the same automatically, as Ukrainian law is valid in the Ukraine only.

The Russian airline has to follow the orders of its Russian authorities. If they say, the aircraft is airworthy, who cares what Antonov says. Did the Ukrainian aviation authorities say anything in the matter? Did other international aviation authorities have a reason to question the Russian certificate?


You might be confusing matters. Type certificate holder (Antonov) finds an operator in violation of airworthiness rules (forgery of paperwork). Operator refuses to comply with type certificate requirements, and operates in breach of TC. Type certificate holder, unable to enforce amicably, sues to obtain a "cease and desist" or whatever court order they may get. Now, they'll enforce it in all jurisdictions that have treaties, recognizing each others' court rulings.
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ei146
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Re: Ukraine issued arrest warrant for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:48 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
You might be confusing matters. Type certificate holder (Antonov) finds an operator in violation of airworthiness rules (forgery of paperwork). Operator refuses to comply with type certificate requirements, and operates in breach of TC. Type certificate holder, unable to enforce amicably, sues to obtain a "cease and desist" or whatever court order they may get. Now, they'll enforce it in all jurisdictions that have treaties, recognizing each others' court rulings.


Come on, that is a bit thin.
The Russian administration Rosaviazija advised maintenance for Russian Antonovs according to a maintenance program by Russian institutions/companies without involving Antonov, claiming lack of support from Antonov. Antonov now sues the companies following that order.
As an example (a lame one, I know): Boeing says the MAX is safe. Your countries aviation authority says its not. Who wins?

The AN124 is a Soviet plane. Unfortunately after the USSR broke up we ended up with the mess we have now:
-Design company and engine manufacturer in one country, production companies in both.
-Some involved companies partially or completly state owned.
-Both countries more or less in a state of war, declared or not.
-Operators in both countries
-Importance for the military
-Both aviation authorities not really cooperating, not to say fighting each other
Everything that happens here is political.

If any other country enforces this Ukrainian court order it takes a side in this battle. The cynic in me says nobody will do it before carefully checking "What's in for me?"

At the same time there is a open case of Ukraine against Russia at ICAO. The outcome of this will be much more relevant, because this is binding for ICAO members.
 
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zeke
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Re: Ukraine issued arrest warrant for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:44 pm

ei146 wrote:
The Russian administration Rosaviazija advised maintenance for Russian Antonovs according to a maintenance program by Russian institutions/companies without involving Antonov, claiming lack of support from Antonov. Antonov now sues the companies following that order.
As an example (a lame one, I know): Boeing says the MAX is safe. Your countries aviation authority says its not. Who wins?


This isn’t true, there is an agreement in place for Ukrainian Antonov to service Ruslan An-124 aircraft.

To me it is a problem with a maintenance organisation performing maintenance without having the licensed data from the OEM to do the work. Effectively all the maintenance they do is invalid as they cannot prove they are maintained in accordance with the TCDS holders approved data.

Similar happened years ago when numerous companies were offering cargo conversions on Boeing aircraft, Boeing basically said unless those STC holders and aircraft operators paid for the data from Boeing, those aircraft would be grounded.

To maintain the TCDS, which means a teams of engineers and support staff to keep track of fleet issues, service difficulty reports, update manuals, issue ADs is not free. The way OEMs recoup these costs is by charging for the support data.
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atcsundevil
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Re: Ukraine issued grounding request for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:38 am

Please keep politics out of this thread. Politics have a way of quickly derailing threads like this.

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Re: Ukraine issued grounding request for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:48 am

Which countries civil register of aircraft are these aircraft on?

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Re: Ukraine issued grounding request for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:31 am

Gemuser wrote:
Which countries civil register of aircraft are these aircraft on?

Gemuser


They are all on the Russian register.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Ukraine issued arrest warrant for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:59 am

ei146 wrote:
...
Come on, that is a bit thin.
The Russian administration Rosaviazija advised maintenance for Russian Antonovs according to a maintenance program by Russian institutions/companies without involving Antonov, claiming lack of support from Antonov. Antonov now sues the companies following that order.
As an example (a lame one, I know): Boeing says the MAX is safe. Your countries aviation authority says its not. Who wins?
...


Lame example indeed. A more relevant example is if you get your hands on some second-hands planes (for the sake of the argument, let's say Boeing 727) and decide, that a better way to operate them is to remove aluminum wings and install new composite ones that you fancy. Helpfully, the registration country for your fleet is at odds with the US, and its aviation authority is gladly supporting your brave experiment, to "stick it to those Yanks" (among other things).
None of this is approved by Boeing Co, obviously. Having learned that some Boeing 727 are being modified and maintained in ways that are not certified, the Boeing Co issues orders to ground the uncompliant frames.
Knowing that it's a lawsuit-happy world, and that there is a risk -- if adulterated frames start falling out of the sky, OEM will be blamed too -- Boeing Co strikes first, and sues the operator in a jurisdiction of its convenience. Once the grounding order is obtained, they stand-by with court paperwork on hand -- to ground bastardized planes, whenever they fly into a friendly jurisdiction.
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ei146
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Re: Ukraine issued arrest warrant for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:54 am

zeke wrote:
...


Hi zeke,
what you write is absolutly correct if you have regular business between companies in countries with normal bilateral relations. If these are gone you can throw most of it out the window.

With the state of relations between Ukraine and Russia companies on both sides can not or want not provide or accept regular services to/from each other.
Do Russian airlines and the military want to keep the planes flying? - Sure.
Do Russian companies have the technical capabilities to provide maintenance? - No doubt.
Do they need Antonov for it? - Probably not.
Will Russian authorities support these efforts with the required supervision and supporting paper trail? - Sure, as it is in the interest of Russia. If requiered they probably would even declare the AN124 a Russian product and issue a Russian type certificate. Probably they would even have a point given the Soviet history of the plane.
Will this create all kinds of legal problems with Ukraine and Ukrainian companies? - Absolutly. But who cares in Russia? Under the current conditions Ukraine has no means to enforce their point of view there.

Just look at what airlines in Iran do to keep their Western planes flying with the support of their aviation authority. Without legal business relations to the OEMs they are in a somewhat comparable situation.

The more interesting question here is, if other intenational authorities let Russia pass with it. None of them is completly independent, they all act in the interest of their countries and at the direction of their governments. Just as a reminder: These planes are based in LEJ for a reason providing lift for international customers including EU and NATO military.
Which makes the case at the ICAO even more interesting.

Sorry admins, it is impossible to keep politics out of it. Though I try hard not take any side and just show different influences and interests. This whole story is nothing but a political thriller. One day someone will make a movie about it. :-)
 
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Re: Ukraine issued arrest warrant for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:18 am

ei146 wrote:
The article says:
It is specified that the aircraft were arrested at the request of the Ukrainian Antonov Concern, which claims that the airworthiness of the aircraft was renewed with a violation. According to the lawyers, the Russian Federal Air Transport Agency illegally certified the German company AMTES for the aircraft maintenance.


So for my understanding this is more a fight about who has oversight over the type certificate? These are Soviet build planes and both Ukrainian authorities with the Antonov Concern and Russian authorities now claim ownership?
How convenient that Volga-Dnepr terminated SALIS participation. Else that Ukrainian move would really piss of some EU countries. Still I don't know if German or other authories in the EU really want to play a role in this fight and really enforce such a warrant.


Another issue here is that not all the An-124s were/are produced in Ukraine. During the Soviet era the Ulyanovsk Aviation Industrial Complex operated a manufacturing facility at Ulyanovsk which was later renamed to the Aviastar-SP in contemporary era which still manufacturer aircraft at Ulyanovsk. From my knowledge every An-124-100 operated by Volga-Dnepr were built in Ulyanovsk, Russia with the oldest frame being a 1990 model quite close to the end days of the USSR as well.
 
ei146
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Re: Ukraine issued arrest warrant for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:47 am

Phosphorus wrote:
Lame example indeed. A more relevant example is if you get your hands on some second-hands planes (for the sake of the argument, let's say Boeing 727) and decide, that a better way to operate them is to remove aluminum wings and install new composite ones that you fancy. Helpfully, the registration country for your fleet is at odds with the US, and its aviation authority is gladly supporting your brave experiment, to "stick it to those Yanks" (among other things).
None of this is approved by Boeing Co, obviously. Having learned that some Boeing 727 are being modified and maintained in ways that are not certified, the Boeing Co issues orders to ground the uncompliant frames.
Knowing that it's a lawsuit-happy world, and that there is a risk -- if adulterated frames start falling out of the sky, OEM will be blamed too -- Boeing Co strikes first, and sues the operator in a jurisdiction of its convenience. Once the grounding order is obtained, they stand-by with court paperwork on hand -- to ground bastardized planes, whenever they fly into a friendly jurisdiction.


Man, I am lucky to live in a place (Germany, Europe), where such an approach fortunately will not work. Here it is the state authorities who decide, if a plane is airworthy or not. Fortunately not the manufacturer. So such a warrant from Boeing would not be honoured. But you can rest assured the EASA and LBA would have a close look at such a bird if it flies into EU. And you know that there is a black list of aircraft and airlines not allowed to fly in EU. In reality most of the airlines do not end up on the list because they did anything wrong. It is just that the aviation authority of their home country is not considered up to the task and their certificates are not trusted.

Using the car analogy: I could take my off-the-shelf Volkswagen, turn it into some completly different customised thingy, have its roadworthyness checked and certified by authorities, get my registration and go. The only thing Volkswagen could do about it is to ask me to remove the Volkswagen badge, as it was no Volkswagen anymore.
You have a point though: Doing the same with a modified commercial aircraft is difficult and almost impossible without the support of the OEM. The test and certification program any serious authority would require would be so huge and expensive that it would not make sense economically.

In the AN124 case: The AN124 development, launch and series production was a joint effort of many companies in the former Soviet Union with Antonov just one piece of the puzzle. The Russians should have the complete paper trail from development, production, testing and its original certification from former authorities and companies involved. They have the experience and data of 30+ years of operation and maintenance. There is the political will do be independent from Ukrainian support and thus the required funding is made available. Don't you think they would be able to come up with a maintenance program that stands every test, even without the blessing of Antonov?
 
Starfuryt
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Re: Ukraine issued grounding request for 5 Volga-Dnepr An-124

Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:39 am

Keeping politics out of it to the best of my ability.
I think it's safe to assume that Russia is probably far better equipped to keep these birds maintained properly and flying than Ukraine. Both in terms of industrial capability and economical climate in the country, which we can all agree isn't the best in Ukraine at present. Antonov had to source western suppliers to replace original Russian made parts in order to keep their own birds flying. An-225 has been down for maintenance for months, both last year and is currently. It hasn't flown since September 15th, there are some recent pictures of it from GML: https://www.facebook.com/an225/photos/p ... =3&theater

Ukraine will likely continue to shoot Antonov in the foot playing political theater, which is rather unfortunate given the history and the accomplishments of the design bureau.

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