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compensateme
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:34 pm

questions wrote:
Could DL be holding out for possible additional slots in the future to eventually move to HND-SIN and HND-MNL?

Otherwise, unless DL is making a boatload on these routes, it would seem 1) the routes would go to KE, 2) the aircraft re-deployed and 3) DL NRT operations shut down — said another way, the profit on these two routes must be greater than doing those three things.


DL has yet to update its flight schedules to reflect the HND flying. These things take time. When the transition is made, the beyond flights to SIN & MNL will almost unquestionably be dropped. Several hundred jobs at NRT, SIN and MNL as well as FA, etc. will be lost. Again... these things take time. DL was *just* awarded the HND flights. These things take time.

No conspiracy theory here folks.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
evanb
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:47 pm

questions wrote:
Could DL be holding out for possible additional slots in the future to eventually move to HND-SIN and HND-MNL?


I guess it's technically possible, but DL would have to convince the USDOT that it's in the US interest to allocate very scarce HND slots to a non-US flight. Given the competition from US carriers for these slots I would hazard a guess that the USDOT would only consider this if there were fewer application for slots for US routes than there are slots available. The chance of this occurring though is near zero.
 
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enilria
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:09 pm

compensateme wrote:
questions wrote:
Could DL be holding out for possible additional slots in the future to eventually move to HND-SIN and HND-MNL?

Otherwise, unless DL is making a boatload on these routes, it would seem 1) the routes would go to KE, 2) the aircraft re-deployed and 3) DL NRT operations shut down — said another way, the profit on these two routes must be greater than doing those three things.


DL has yet to update its flight schedules to reflect the HND flying. These things take time. When the transition is made, the beyond flights to SIN & MNL will almost unquestionably be dropped. Several hundred jobs at NRT, SIN and MNL as well as FA, etc. will be lost. Again... these things take time. DL was *just* awarded the HND flights. These things take time.

No conspiracy theory here folks.

The HND assignments are only preliminary. They can't file anything until they are made permanent. Delta said several years ago they wanted to move the entire hub in NRT to HND otherwise they were being treated unfairly. That was pre-KE JV, however (see how I rhymed that?).
 
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PDXPOL
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:24 am

enilria wrote:
onwFan wrote:
And give it two years - I will be surprised if DL still flies MSP-HND (or PDX-HND - it is only a matter of time that JL jumps on the route in partnership with AS). I find it really hard to believe that DL will be able to profitably fly seven daily into HND - one each of SEA/PDX/LAX/MSP/DTW/ATL/HNL-HND. Even though DL has good visibility in Japan, most of DL's transpacific flights have been replicated at ICN over the past few years - I doubt if flights into both ICN and HND will be sustainable, but who knows...

kachun wrote:
I flew MSP-HND several times before and it's always been full or nearly full.

What I've seen with MSP is that the loads have built up nicely, but the yields are junk mostly because MSP doesn't really have any business ties to Japan. I think part of what has propped it up as much as it has been was that it was DL's only real hub with HND service and there has been a growing contingent of customers who prefer HND. I think once all these new HND routes open up they will see either a load or yield collapse on MSP-HND. I think the start of ICN-MSP is more or less in expectation that we will see that outcome. I'd be really surprised to see MSP keep HND and ICN. I think ICN will do well, but HND will be hit hard when all the new routes begin.

As for PDX. I can't believe it does well enough now to keep flying to NRT. Without any feed at HND I will be shocked to see it survive. If JL/NH entered DL would be crazy to even stay 1 second longer. With no feed on either end they would be demolished. I wonder if DL has a plan for where to ask to move the MSP and PDX slots already? I'm very puzzled by PDX-HND on DL. At least HND-HNL I can tell myself is there to build Japan point of sale brand strength...at great cost I suspect. IDK what PDX-HND is for. They can cover it very well over SEA and it's not as if DL is a hub carrier in PDX...maybe decades ago.



PDX is a very strong market for Tokyo in general. The load factors on the current flight maintain in the mid to high 80 percentile consistently. There are over a 140 Japanese businesses in Oregon. DL's planes fill up including the premium seats. Also Oregon' fasted growing population is Asian. The HND flight is here to stay and not going anywhere soon. As for daily (including winter) and an A332 which was proposed, they will have to feed some through other cities to PDX.

https://www.wweek.com/uncategorized/201 ... act-sheet/

https://www.oregonlive.com/data/2017/06 ... owing.html
 
N649DL
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:39 am

I can't think of a single DL hub that would be able to support ULH service in the US to SIN. I think it's smart they operate NRT-SIN independently considering how badly UA did on LAX-SIN. There's no way DL could make SEA-SIN work on a nonstop either.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:11 am

N649DL wrote:
I can't think of a single DL hub that would be able to support ULH service in the US to SIN. I think it's smart they operate NRT-SIN independently considering how badly UA did on LAX-SIN. There's no way DL could make SEA-SIN work on a nonstop either.

UA's LAX-SIN is more performance issue than anything else; or how are you supporting the twice daily SFO-SIN? Granted SFO is a far better market to SIN than any of DL's hub (maybe sans LAX)

Michae
 
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:19 am

[list=][/list]
global1 wrote:
Don’t know about SIN, but could DTW-NGO go to daily and the NGO-MNL tag be brought back? I don’t know how this might negatively affect aircraft utilization as the DTW-NGO flight now turns around and heads back to the States.

NGO is now daily for at least for the summer.
 
runningformqm
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:34 am

eamondzhang wrote:
UA's LAX-SIN is more performance issue than anything else; or how are you supporting the twice daily SFO-SIN? Granted SFO is a far better market to SIN than any of DL's hub (maybe sans LAX)

Michae


ua/sq also have connecting flights beyond sin. given dl's hubs, sin would be very challenging from the us. except for slc and sea, dl's us hubs to sin are >9k miles. if dl couldnt make hkg work i doubt sin would be viable.
 
N649DL
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:46 am

eamondzhang wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I can't think of a single DL hub that would be able to support ULH service in the US to SIN. I think it's smart they operate NRT-SIN independently considering how badly UA did on LAX-SIN. There's no way DL could make SEA-SIN work on a nonstop either.

UA's LAX-SIN is more performance issue than anything else; or how are you supporting the twice daily SFO-SIN? Granted SFO is a far better market to SIN than any of DL's hub (maybe sans LAX)

Michae


The feed going into the UA hub at SFO is far superior than the LAX hub to feed a ULH route like that. DL I highly doubt could make LAX-SIN work either.

Was UA's LAX-SIN a performance issue in terms of blocking seats out for the ULH or PAX loads or both? I thought it was PAX related.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:55 am

N649DL wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I can't think of a single DL hub that would be able to support ULH service in the US to SIN. I think it's smart they operate NRT-SIN independently considering how badly UA did on LAX-SIN. There's no way DL could make SEA-SIN work on a nonstop either.

UA's LAX-SIN is more performance issue than anything else; or how are you supporting the twice daily SFO-SIN? Granted SFO is a far better market to SIN than any of DL's hub (maybe sans LAX)

Michae


The feed going into the UA hub at SFO is far superior than the LAX hub to feed a ULH route like that. DL I highly doubt could make LAX-SIN work either.

Was UA's LAX-SIN a performance issue in terms of blocking seats out for the ULH or PAX loads or both? I thought it was PAX related.

Seat blockings as you said; I literally read the other thread five seconds ago (believe it's the United Fleet thread) that they routinely block 50+ seats in winter. Never sustainable with that sort of performance.

LAX has its local market and that's partially why SQ flies 10x weekly (or is it 11x?)

Michael
 
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:06 am

enilria wrote:

As for PDX. I can't believe it does well enough now to keep flying to NRT. Without any feed at HND I will be shocked to see it survive. If JL/NH entered DL would be crazy to even stay 1 second longer. With no feed on either end they would be demolished. I wonder if DL has a plan for where to ask to move the MSP and PDX slots already? I'm very puzzled by PDX-HND on DL. At least HND-HNL I can tell myself is there to build Japan point of sale brand strength...at great cost I suspect. IDK what PDX-HND is for. They can cover it very well over SEA and it's not as if DL is a hub carrier in PDX...maybe decades ago.



So... you are not counting any of these non-stop flights that Delta operates from Portland daily?

LAX x5
SLC x6
DTW x1
JFK x3
ATL x4
AMS x1
LHR x1
SEA x8

I get that Delta doesn't operate dozens of flights out of Portland to dozens of cities in the US, but to say there is NO feed on the US end is a bit misleading. There are 29 flights from Portland to other cities daily, including 2 other international destinations. You are correct, there will be nothing in HND. There are several multi-national companies based Portland as well... Nike, Adidas, Columbia, Patagonia... etc.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:16 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Well right now Delta offer no connections on either end.

That's more a function of you erratically conflating "connection" with "codeshare," than it is a statement of fact.



NZ321 wrote:
SIN is primarily about US military presence in SIN

:lol: :lol: :lol:



N649DL wrote:
The feed going into the UA hub at SFO is far superior than the LAX hub to feed a ULH route

Based on what?

....what city/metro/area is sending an even-remotely significant number of high-yield connecting pax to SIN (or really, any other ULH destination), that UA serves from SFO but not LAX?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
onwFan
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:20 am

fly4ever78 wrote:
enilria wrote:

As for PDX. I can't believe it does well enough now to keep flying to NRT. Without any feed at HND I will be shocked to see it survive. If JL/NH entered DL would be crazy to even stay 1 second longer. With no feed on either end they would be demolished. I wonder if DL has a plan for where to ask to move the MSP and PDX slots already? I'm very puzzled by PDX-HND on DL. At least HND-HNL I can tell myself is there to build Japan point of sale brand strength...at great cost I suspect. IDK what PDX-HND is for. They can cover it very well over SEA and it's not as if DL is a hub carrier in PDX...maybe decades ago.



So... you are not counting any of these non-stop flights that Delta operates from Portland daily?

LAX x5
SLC x6
DTW x1
JFK x3
ATL x4
AMS x1
LHR x1
SEA x8

I get that Delta doesn't operate dozens of flights out of Portland to dozens of cities in the US, but to say there is NO feed on the US end is a bit misleading. There are 29 flights from Portland to other cities daily, including 2 other international destinations. You are correct, there will be nothing in HND. There are several multi-national companies based Portland as well... Nike, Adidas, Columbia, Patagonia... etc.


Out of the flights you mention - LAX, DTW, ATL and SEA will already have nonstop flights to HND on DL (Not sure how LHR and AMS even fit into this). I hardly think DL has capacity shortage to have to divide SLC & JFK connecting traffic between SEA and PDX. The business traffic you mention is perhaps the only reason why DL is still on the route - Given that JL/AS will have feed on both ends, I think it is just a matter of time (especially with added loyalty if AS/oneworld connect pans out)....I would think that all the companies you mention already have contracts with AS for other domestic routes? Anyway, will be interesting to see what happens two years from the DL move into HND.
 
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enilria
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:37 pm

PDXPOL wrote:
enilria wrote:
onwFan wrote:
And give it two years - I will be surprised if DL still flies MSP-HND (or PDX-HND - it is only a matter of time that JL jumps on the route in partnership with AS). I find it really hard to believe that DL will be able to profitably fly seven daily into HND - one each of SEA/PDX/LAX/MSP/DTW/ATL/HNL-HND. Even though DL has good visibility in Japan, most of DL's transpacific flights have been replicated at ICN over the past few years - I doubt if flights into both ICN and HND will be sustainable, but who knows...

kachun wrote:
I flew MSP-HND several times before and it's always been full or nearly full.

What I've seen with MSP is that the loads have built up nicely, but the yields are junk mostly because MSP doesn't really have any business ties to Japan. I think part of what has propped it up as much as it has been was that it was DL's only real hub with HND service and there has been a growing contingent of customers who prefer HND. I think once all these new HND routes open up they will see either a load or yield collapse on MSP-HND. I think the start of ICN-MSP is more or less in expectation that we will see that outcome. I'd be really surprised to see MSP keep HND and ICN. I think ICN will do well, but HND will be hit hard when all the new routes begin.

As for PDX. I can't believe it does well enough now to keep flying to NRT. Without any feed at HND I will be shocked to see it survive. If JL/NH entered DL would be crazy to even stay 1 second longer. With no feed on either end they would be demolished. I wonder if DL has a plan for where to ask to move the MSP and PDX slots already? I'm very puzzled by PDX-HND on DL. At least HND-HNL I can tell myself is there to build Japan point of sale brand strength...at great cost I suspect. IDK what PDX-HND is for. They can cover it very well over SEA and it's not as if DL is a hub carrier in PDX...maybe decades ago.



PDX is a very strong market for Tokyo in general. The load factors on the current flight maintain in the mid to high 80 percentile consistently. There are over a 140 Japanese businesses in Oregon. DL's planes fill up including the premium seats. Also Oregon' fasted growing population is Asian. The HND flight is here to stay and not going anywhere soon. As for daily (including winter) and an A332 which was proposed, they will have to feed some through other cities to PDX.

https://www.wweek.com/uncategorized/201 ... act-sheet/

https://www.oregonlive.com/data/2017/06 ... owing.html

That's all great but there are nearly zero long-haul trans-ocean routes on legacies with no hub on either end in the entire world (and hub-tags don't count either). It's not about PDX. The economics on those types of routes just never work.

If you can get 200 people going from PDX-TYO with no connects then a hub airline can get 400 people with 200 local and 200 connect. With the CASM advantage of a 400 passenger plane that usually allows another all local legacy to get pushed out. It's surprising nobody has pushed Delta out of this if it is as good as you say. It would always be better with a hub in Tokyo. It's just a leftover appendage from what when DL had a NRT hub and frankly to see it move to HND is super-odd.
 
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enilria
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:00 pm

fly4ever78 wrote:
enilria wrote:

As for PDX. I can't believe it does well enough now to keep flying to NRT. Without any feed at HND I will be shocked to see it survive. If JL/NH entered DL would be crazy to even stay 1 second longer. With no feed on either end they would be demolished. I wonder if DL has a plan for where to ask to move the MSP and PDX slots already? I'm very puzzled by PDX-HND on DL. At least HND-HNL I can tell myself is there to build Japan point of sale brand strength...at great cost I suspect. IDK what PDX-HND is for. They can cover it very well over SEA and it's not as if DL is a hub carrier in PDX...maybe decades ago.



So... you are not counting any of these non-stop flights that Delta operates from Portland daily?

LAX x5
SLC x6
DTW x1
JFK x3
ATL x4
AMS x1
LHR x1
SEA x8

I get that Delta doesn't operate dozens of flights out of Portland to dozens of cities in the US, but to say there is NO feed on the US end is a bit misleading. There are 29 flights from Portland to other cities daily, including 2 other international destinations. You are correct, there will be nothing in HND. There are several multi-national companies based Portland as well... Nike, Adidas, Columbia, Patagonia... etc.

Yeah, there's no feed. Those are all other DL hubs.

Maybe SLC.
LAX is circuitous and non-stop.
DTW is non-stop.
JFK is much closer via DTW.
ATL is non-stop.
AMS (I'm wiping the tear of hilarity from my eye.)
LHR (same as above)
SEA, seriously?

So no. With the exception of SLC there is no feed of consequence. According to MIDT less than 7% of the traffic connects to Tokyo on the PDX side. About 1/2 is SLC and the other half is a mix of interline and those bargain bin double and triple connects they push on you. For example, CLE-DTW-SEA-PDX-NRT for $199 shows up, that's like $70 per flight, LOL.
 
N649DL
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:19 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Well right now Delta offer no connections on either end.

That's more a function of you erratically conflating "connection" with "codeshare," than it is a statement of fact.



NZ321 wrote:
SIN is primarily about US military presence in SIN

:lol: :lol: :lol:



N649DL wrote:
The feed going into the UA hub at SFO is far superior than the LAX hub to feed a ULH route

Based on what?

....what city/metro/area is sending an even-remotely significant number of high-yield connecting pax to SIN (or really, any other ULH destination), that UA serves from SFO but not LAX?


I'm giving UAL credit here on how SFO can feed a niche UAL route like SIN from there. UA at LAX just isn't as big enough of a feeder hub and as already mentioned the seat blocking on the route was high (granted, I'm not sure if SFO is all that much closer not to do so as well.)

UA does just fine on legacy routes like SYD and LHR from LAX but operating SIN was too much of a stretch for the hub. As said, it's probably why DL flies NRT-SIN and not nonstop from the US.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:32 pm

DL's tags from NRT (SIN and MNL) work because of large TYO O&D. If DL could move the flights from NRT to HND I'm sure DL would, but otherwise those tags will stay at NRT until Ed and Glen have better yields elsewhere for the frames. Those tags show the power of FF programs... many cheaper alternatives, including ex-HND. Why have those tags survived? Why would pax who could fly ex-HND schlep out to the boonies (additional hour to two hours each way by rail) to fly to SIN or MNL? SkyMiles.
 
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Polot
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:42 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
DL's tags from NRT (SIN and MNL) work because of large TYO O&D. If DL could move the flights from NRT to HND I'm sure DL would, but otherwise those tags will stay at NRT until Ed and Glen have better yields elsewhere for the frames. Those tags show the power of FF programs... many cheaper alternatives, including ex-HND. Why have those tags survived? Why would pax who could fly ex-HND schlep out to the boonies (additional hour to two hours each way by rail) to fly to SIN or MNL? SkyMiles.

These fights will be gone when DL moves to HND because there will be no frames in NRT to fly them. The routes are targeted for DL’s US customers (many of whom need to take a 1 stop to get to SIN/MNL anyways), not Japanese O&D.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:13 pm

Maybe we're mistaking this thread. Maybe he's playing Jeopardy - giving us the answer, and we need to get the question.

What is: why is NRT-SIN still bookable on Delta.com?
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:23 pm

compensateme wrote:
Maybe we're mistaking this thread. Maybe he's playing Jeopardy - giving us the answer, and we need to get the question.

What is: why is NRT-SIN still bookable on Delta.com?

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:29 am

N649DL wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
N649DL wrote:
The feed going into the UA hub at SFO is far superior than the LAX hub to feed a ULH route

....what city/metro/area is sending an even-remotely significant number of high-yield connecting pax to SIN (or really, any other ULH destination), that UA serves from SFO but not LAX?

UA at LAX just isn't as big enough of a feeder hub
UA does just fine on legacy routes like SYD and LHR from LAX but operating SIN was too much of a stretch for the hub.

All you did was repeat what you said the first time, without ever actually addressing the question presented.

The switch from LAX to SFO was primarily a function of the aircraft's performance at range... if it was all about SFO cnnx, they would've just launched it as a second SFO in the first place.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
N649DL
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:59 am

LAX772LR wrote:
N649DL wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
....what city/metro/area is sending an even-remotely significant number of high-yield connecting pax to SIN (or really, any other ULH destination), that UA serves from SFO but not LAX?

UA at LAX just isn't as big enough of a feeder hub
UA does just fine on legacy routes like SYD and LHR from LAX but operating SIN was too much of a stretch for the hub.

All you did was repeat what you said the first time, without ever actually addressing the question presented.

The switch from LAX to SFO was primarily a function of the aircraft's performance at range... if it was all about SFO cnnx, they would've just launched it as a second SFO in the first place.


Because your question was a poorly phrased sentence and the answer is really quite obvious, None. And it really has nothing to do with the topic. You're just nitpicking at this point.

SFO isn't all that much closer than LAX and it probably has to have seats blocked off as well.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:27 am

N649DL wrote:
You're just nitpicking at this point.

If by "nitpicking" you mean addressing an oft-repeated but rarely-substantiated lore of this website, then sure.....


N649DL wrote:
SFO isn't all that much closer than LAX and it probably has to have seats blocked off as well.

The word "probably" should be your clue that you're expressing supposition rather than fact.

If you don't understand that an extra hour's flying time (read that: "weight of fuel at departure") is a critical factor into the capacity calculation for an ULH op, that's already at the margin of a ship's performance profile, then I'm not sure what to tell you.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
toobz
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:35 am

As someone that has taken the PDX-NRT flight frequently, I can tell you it does well. It is always full or overbooked.
 
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:25 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
onwFan wrote:
And give it two years - I will be surprised if DL still flies MSP-HND (or PDX-HND - it is only a matter of time that JL jumps on the route in partnership with AS). I find it really hard to believe that DL will be able to profitably fly seven daily into HND - one each of SEA/PDX/LAX/MSP/DTW/ATL/HNL-HND. Even though DL has good visibility in Japan, most of DL's transpacific flights have been replicated at ICN over the past few years - I doubt if flights into both ICN and HND will be sustainable, but who knows...


Agreed. Delta is toast on PDX-HND once JAL or ANA start service. It will be so much better for Portland residents to have connecting opportunities beyond Tokyo.


Except I'm pretty sure Delta holds a few corporate contracts for that flight. I know NW got a big Nike contract for the PDX-NRT to start up.
 
N649DL
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Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:29 am

LAX772LR wrote:
N649DL wrote:
You're just nitpicking at this point.

If by "nitpicking" you mean addressing an oft-repeated but rarely-substantiated lore of this website, then sure.....


N649DL wrote:
SFO isn't all that much closer than LAX and it probably has to have seats blocked off as well.

The word "probably" should be your clue that you're expressing supposition rather than fact.

If you don't understand that an extra hour's flying time (read that: "weight of fuel at departure") is a critical factor into the capacity calculation for an ULH op, that's already at the margin of a ship's performance profile, then I'm not sure what to tell you.


I'm not sure why you're attacking my post. Others agreed with it: UA clearly moved the LAX flight to SFO for very logical reasons. I currently live in LA and I can tell you that while UA is rebuilding itself (after nearly downsizing it to a fault), & it was a ballsy move to fly LAX-SIN when it was launched. Some folks I talk to really don't like UA down here but tolerate them because it's cheap. They don't like AA much either, but know they are the big hub in town. The corporate contracts, hub feed, & loyalty up in SFO is much greater. And that's a no brainier, yet you still couldn't directly address the seat blocking issue!

Maybe do yourself a favor and stop trolling / projecting / deflecting logic about my posts because you simply don't agree with them. And you're doing a very poor job addressing the question by the way. Vague and flaky points aren't helping your argument. It's clear you don't like me picking on UA at LAX and I'm not sure why.
 
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LAX772LR
Posts: 12301
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:50 am

N649DL wrote:
yet you still couldn't directly address the seat blocking issue!

You really should pay closer attention.

Here they are again:
LAX772LR wrote:
an extra hour's flying time (read that: "weight of fuel at departure") is a critical factor into the capacity calculation for an ULH op
LAX772LR wrote:
The switch from LAX to SFO was primarily a function of the aircraft's performance at range

Was I mistaken in believing that you had the wherewithal to figure out that each one of these directly references "the seat blocking issue"...?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Coal
Posts: 2519
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:14 am

Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:44 am

Flown DL a few times SIN-NRT, it was usually the cheapest option, especially last minute.

Would fly DL over TZ/TR any day. The 763s are way better than the 787s (e.g. PTVs, etc.). But of course would rather fly SQ at the right fare.
Nxt Flts: KE SIN-ICN-ATL | DL ATL-FLL | AA MIA-ATL | KE ATL-ICN-SIN
 
kavok
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:21 pm

Even if for some reason DL wanted to maintain NRT-SIN/MNL, they legally wouldn’t be able to once they shift their USA-NRT operations to HND. By rule, the NRT-SIN/MNL tags have to be attached to a NRT-USA flight. Hence they’d have to keep two USA-NRT flights to keep the tags. I also wonder if DL might keep two token NRT flights (from SEA/DTW?) through the 2020 olympics before dropping them, and the NRT-SIN/MNL operation with it shortly after.

The only other scenario I could see happening, is if DL reapplies to the DOT for flexibility to shift HND slots around. I know they just asked, and in January 2019 the DOT basically told them “not at this time”, which is different than a hard ‘no’. Well, maybe after the dust settles the DOT would reconsider, especially if NH/JL start moving their HND slots around as they see fit.

DL re-asking the DOT to shift HND slots, and if the DOT says yes next time, could allow DL to shift its worst performing USA-HND slots to HND-SIN/MNL, and thus relaunching the tag operation from HND.
 
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Polot
Posts: 9347
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:30 pm

kavok wrote:
Even if for some reason DL wanted to maintain NRT-SIN/MNL, they legally wouldn’t be able to once they shift their USA-NRT operations to HND. By rule, the NRT-SIN/MNL tags have to be attached to a NRT-USA flight. Hence they’d have to keep two USA-NRT flights to keep the tags. I also wonder if DL might keep two token NRT flights (from SEA/DTW?) through the 2020 olympics before dropping them, and the NRT-SIN/MNL operation with it shortly after.

The only other scenario I could see happening, is if DL reapplies to the DOT for flexibility to shift HND slots around. I know they just asked, and in January 2019 the DOT basically told them “not at this time”, which is different than a hard ‘no’. Well, maybe after the dust settles the DOT would reconsider, especially if NH/JL start moving their HND slots around as they see fit.

DL re-asking the DOT to shift HND slots, and if the DOT says yes next time, could allow DL to shift its worst performing USA-HND slots to HND-SIN/MNL, and thus relaunching the tag operation from HND.

The DOT may apply conditions such as they can only shuffle them around as long as it is used from a US gateway. As long as access is restricted and other airlines want more flights they are instantly going to file an objection the moment DL tries to shift a HND slot to SIN or MNL, claiming the slots are not being used for the public’s best interest (the entire reasoning behind the award process). This isn’t like China where the the NRT tags were old legacy routes.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6969
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:23 pm

kavok wrote:
Even if for some reason DL wanted to maintain NRT-SIN/MNL, they legally wouldn’t be able to once they shift their USA-NRT operations to HND. By rule, the NRT-SIN/MNL tags have to be attached to a NRT-USA flight. Hence they’d have to keep two USA-NRT flights to keep the tags.


With HND slots being a scarce commodity, is there a time in the foreseeable future when DL will have moved all of its U.S.-Tokyo flights to HND, thus abandoning NRT altogether?
Upcoming flights:
May: AM MEX-CUN 73H (Y), AM CUN-MEX 73W (Y).
August: KL MEX-AMS 74M (J), KQ AMS-NBO 788 (J).
 
jbmitt
Posts: 630
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 3:59 am

Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:37 pm

fly4ever78 wrote:
enilria wrote:

As for PDX. I can't believe it does well enough now to keep flying to NRT. Without any feed at HND I will be shocked to see it survive. If JL/NH entered DL would be crazy to even stay 1 second longer. With no feed on either end they would be demolished. I wonder if DL has a plan for where to ask to move the MSP and PDX slots already? I'm very puzzled by PDX-HND on DL. At least HND-HNL I can tell myself is there to build Japan point of sale brand strength...at great cost I suspect. IDK what PDX-HND is for. They can cover it very well over SEA and it's not as if DL is a hub carrier in PDX...maybe decades ago.



So... you are not counting any of these non-stop flights that Delta operates from Portland daily?

LAX x5
SLC x6
DTW x1
JFK x3
ATL x4
AMS x1
LHR x1
SEA x8

I get that Delta doesn't operate dozens of flights out of Portland to dozens of cities in the US, but to say there is NO feed on the US end is a bit misleading. There are 29 flights from Portland to other cities daily, including 2 other international destinations. You are correct, there will be nothing in HND. There are several multi-national companies based Portland as well... Nike, Adidas, Columbia, Patagonia... etc.


I had different figures and add in MSP.

DTW x2
ATL x5
MSP x5

If the hubs lose the NRT flight for HND, it would be a viable connection opportunity for people who need to be closer than NRT. Double connections are probably better served elsewhere.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9482
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:21 pm

jbmitt wrote:
fly4ever78 wrote:
enilria wrote:

As for PDX. I can't believe it does well enough now to keep flying to NRT. Without any feed at HND I will be shocked to see it survive. If JL/NH entered DL would be crazy to even stay 1 second longer. With no feed on either end they would be demolished. I wonder if DL has a plan for where to ask to move the MSP and PDX slots already? I'm very puzzled by PDX-HND on DL. At least HND-HNL I can tell myself is there to build Japan point of sale brand strength...at great cost I suspect. IDK what PDX-HND is for. They can cover it very well over SEA and it's not as if DL is a hub carrier in PDX...maybe decades ago.



So... you are not counting any of these non-stop flights that Delta operates from Portland daily?

LAX x5
SLC x6
DTW x1
JFK x3
ATL x4
AMS x1
LHR x1
SEA x8

I get that Delta doesn't operate dozens of flights out of Portland to dozens of cities in the US, but to say there is NO feed on the US end is a bit misleading. There are 29 flights from Portland to other cities daily, including 2 other international destinations. You are correct, there will be nothing in HND. There are several multi-national companies based Portland as well... Nike, Adidas, Columbia, Patagonia... etc.


I had different figures and add in MSP.

DTW x2
ATL x5
MSP x5

If the hubs lose the NRT flight for HND, it would be a viable connection opportunity for people who need to be closer than NRT. Double connections are probably better served elsewhere.

PDX is moving to HND as well per the DOT.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23624
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Because Delta (DL) has not canceled NRT-SIN?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:52 pm

Let's say this again.

Haneda slots cannot be used for beyond service to 3rd countries.

Slots are only valid for service from a gateway in the U.S. or it's territories.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California

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