Interflug74
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:53 am

German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:24 pm

https://www.focus.de/finanzen/boerse/we ... 19845.html

After holding in french airspace, german DFS (Deutsche Flugsicherung) denies entering german airspace to an Norwegian 737 MAX, and the flight had to land in french Châlons Vatry.
I thought ALL flights of the MAX are halted in this moment? How can they take off in Spain and countinue to France in the first place?
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2265
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:27 pm

Ferry movements are governed under special flight rules (and one time permits)
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 868
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:59 pm

The 737 MAX has been grounded worldwide for almost 3 months now; why did it take so long for Norwegian to ferry one of their planes back? Sounds like poor planning on their end.
 
Chemist
Posts: 508
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:11 pm

:lol: I'm sure the Germans weren't going to let it land at Berlin's new airport!
 
sciing
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:54 am

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:02 am

Chemist wrote:
:lol: I'm sure the Germans weren't going to let it land at Berlin's new airport!

There are 300 moves each day on the runway for the later BER.
https://www.berlin-airport.de/en/_docum ... SXF-EN.pdf
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 2551
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:44 am

737 MAXs have literally been flying daily since the grounding. Just as ferry flights and mostly Boeing moving aircraft around/testing.
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 3573
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:01 am

They were just pestering Norwegian.

I'm sure within a few days this plane will continue to Stockholm, only this time without overflying Germany. They'll fly straight north, over the Netherlands and then over the North Sea towards Norway. Once north of German airspace they'll bend off to the east towards Stockholm.
 
CXfirst
Posts: 3020
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:13 pm

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:03 am

WayexTDI wrote:
The 737 MAX has been grounded worldwide for almost 3 months now; why did it take so long for Norwegian to ferry one of their planes back? Sounds like poor planning on their end.


You don't have any idea about their operational needs.

It could be simply that they now have knowledge of what the eventual fix will be and it requires it to be done in Stockholm, or simply the frame is coming close to some scheduled service, or a whole other heap of operational needs.

So, why does it matter if the ferry flight was done a day after grounding or 3 months? It was approved by EASA and Eurocontrol, just denied by Germany (and France) after it was already in the air.
 
ei146
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:07 am

Not all i's dotted and t's crossed on some request form?
 
zkncj
Posts: 3155
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:53 am

WayexTDI wrote:
The 737 MAX has been grounded worldwide for almost 3 months now; why did it take so long for Norwegian to ferry one of their planes back? Sounds like poor planning on their end.


All depends on the situation, e.g. originally it might of just been an simple software fix that could be done in remote locations. And Norwegian now has more infomation it was now best to fly it back to one of there bases.

Or it could even been they have only just got given there ferry permits to bring the aircraft home. I can see some countries being hesitant at first about the ferry permits due to risks even being an no passenger carrying flight .
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 868
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:56 pm

CXfirst wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
The 737 MAX has been grounded worldwide for almost 3 months now; why did it take so long for Norwegian to ferry one of their planes back? Sounds like poor planning on their end.


You don't have any idea about their operational needs.

It could be simply that they now have knowledge of what the eventual fix will be and it requires it to be done in Stockholm, or simply the frame is coming close to some scheduled service, or a whole other heap of operational needs.

So, why does it matter if the ferry flight was done a day after grounding or 3 months? It was approved by EASA and Eurocontrol, just denied by Germany (and France) after it was already in the air.

It looks like other airlines have quickly gathered their planes in one spot after the grounding; so why did Norwegian wait 3 months and then decided to ferry that plane?
They had no operational needs for the plane since it was grounded; sounds more like a maintenance decision.

The ferry flight for this specific plane was not denied by France since the plane was already over France and landed in France. Google translation of the quoted article:
After flying several queues in French airspace, the pilots had to land at Châlons Vatry airport in the French province
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 2890
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:38 pm

Why did they wait? Maybe it is a space issue. Not every airport has the room for many grounded airplanes. They could have left the planes scattered around their system where they had space and are only now moving them to where they can get the fix or other work done. Other airlines have sent their aircraft to a couple of large storage type of airports, like Mohave, that isn't the option that all others have taken.
 
dcajet
Posts: 3753
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:03 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
The 737 MAX has been grounded worldwide for almost 3 months now; why did it take so long for Norwegian to ferry one of their planes back? Sounds like poor planning on their end.


Why do airlines bother, when all they need to do is consult the many specialists available on hand here on A.net? They know better!
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
AIRT0M
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:54 am

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:12 pm

Poor planning by Norwegian, or maybe a fault of Eurocontrol. The German airspace was initially closed for MAX flights until 11 June (the day Norwegian tried to ferry the plane), but was later extended until 8 September (for now).
 
CXfirst
Posts: 3020
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:13 pm

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:35 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
CXfirst wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
The 737 MAX has been grounded worldwide for almost 3 months now; why did it take so long for Norwegian to ferry one of their planes back? Sounds like poor planning on their end.


You don't have any idea about their operational needs.

It could be simply that they now have knowledge of what the eventual fix will be and it requires it to be done in Stockholm, or simply the frame is coming close to some scheduled service, or a whole other heap of operational needs.

So, why does it matter if the ferry flight was done a day after grounding or 3 months? It was approved by EASA and Eurocontrol, just denied by Germany (and France) after it was already in the air.

It looks like other airlines have quickly gathered their planes in one spot after the grounding; so why did Norwegian wait 3 months and then decided to ferry that plane?
They had no operational needs for the plane since it was grounded; sounds more like a maintenance decision.

The ferry flight for this specific plane was not denied by France since the plane was already over France and landed in France. Google translation of the quoted article:
After flying several queues in French airspace, the pilots had to land at Châlons Vatry airport in the French province


First of all. The plane came from Malaga, which isn't an out station, but a base. So there are plenty of good reasons for it to stay there 3 months, and they probably had good reasons to ferry it now. Most airlines did ferry flights straight away, back to base, and Norwegian wasn't an exception. When I talked about operational need, it was in regards to continue operations from Malaga when the ban is lifted.

Also, France decided to close its airspace as Germany did (with Norwegian already in their airspace), and it wasn't just a simple landing. Norwegian had to hold for a while before being directed to land at Vatry.

If French airspace had been open as normal, Norwegian would not have gone to Vatry, they would have elected to go to a much more suitable airport. Probably back to Malaga, a reroute via another country, or at least another Norwegian base.
 
User avatar
CrimsonNL
Posts: 2077
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:34 pm

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:38 pm

They are not the only ones in Europe. TUI Netherlands' PHTFO has been in SOF ever since the grounding. Numerous attempts have been made to ferry her back, some really crazy (airspace avoiding) routes too, but no luck yet.

Martijn
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7754
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:40 pm

WestJet moved one of their Max's yesterday from YLW to YVR. As mentioned above, ferry flights happen all the time.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
smartplane
Posts: 903
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:27 pm

When a commercial aircraft model is grounded, it's insurance cover is also suspended, with ground risk only remaining.

Flight approval is on a one for one basis, and perhaps in this case, not all the t's were crossed, and i's dotted.

There is also an issue for the crew, whose life and injury cover will also be suspended for the duration of the flight.

Relocating aircraft in these situations is usually done under experimental cover, with approved crew, so perhaps the delay was sourcing Boeing or Boeing-approved flight crew, and covering the aircraft under the Boeing flight-test policy.

Despite EU airspace management, individual countries have the veto when experimental or grounded aircraft propose over flights.

Or this very aircraft may turn up at Paris next week.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2604
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: German DFS denies transfer flight trough german airspace of an Norwegian 737 Max

Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:00 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
They were just pestering Norwegian.

I'm sure within a few days this plane will continue to Stockholm, only this time without overflying Germany. They'll fly straight north, over the Netherlands and then over the North Sea towards Norway. Once north of German airspace they'll bend off to the east towards Stockholm.


AFAIK, France forbids ferry flights too, they just didn't realise it was a MAX until the Germans refused it. Guess it's stuck in Vatry until the ungrounding.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos