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Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:01 pm
by flyinghippo
I'm a DL flyer and going to SFO for a business trip in October. To my surprise, all business class on direct flights between JFK - SFO are sold out on DL. I even looked into 3Q/4Q of this year, 90% of the flights have their business cabins sold out. DL flies 757 with 16 D1 seats

Meanwhile, AA has plenty of C seats on their A321s on the same dates. They're using A321s with 20 C and 10F seats (Didn't search for F seats so not sure about their LF)

While AS also provide direct service between JFK/SFO, they do not have lie-flat seats.

Is DL underserving JFK/SFO route? Obviously, UA has EWR-SFO all wrapped up, but JFK-SFO still represents a significant market that DL can capitalize on - especially if their C cabins are consistently sold out. Does anyone have info on the premium cabin LFs for DL and AA?

Thoughts/Insights?

Re: JFK-SFO biz availability on DL

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:14 pm
by senatorflyer
Aren’t AA using A321s?

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:17 pm
by airzona11
While it would be nice to have seats available (not to mention room for upgrades), that airline business model is from days past. DL has been outspoken about wanting to grow and growing paid premium cabin seats. They seem to have no problem selling the seats, and that far out, probably at healthy fares.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:18 pm
by flyfresno
Aren’t a few of the JFK-SFO flights on 767s?

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:22 pm
by lightsaber
airzona11 wrote:
While it would be nice to have seats available (not to mention room for upgrades), that airline business model is from days past. DL has been outspoken about wanting to grow and growing paid premium cabin seats. They seem to have no problem selling the seats, and that far out, probably at healthy fares.

Free business class is money losing. DL should probably expand,

At this time UA has reduced capacity due to the MAX grounding. I would assume their SFO hub is short of J seats until that is undone. So I assume DL is benefitting until UA can out the MAX back in the schedule.

Lightsaber

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:25 pm
by flyinghippo
flyfresno wrote:
Aren’t a few of the JFK-SFO flights on 767s?

Maybe - but all of the days/flights I searched only had 757s

Re: JFK-SFO biz availability on DL

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:26 pm
by flyinghippo
senatorflyer wrote:
Aren’t AA using A321s?


Yes - you're right! Corrected my OP. Thanks

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:30 pm
by flyinghippo
If the LF on JFK/SFO is that high, I wonder if DL can do close to hourly flights between the 2 cities when they get A321NEOs and have a similar cabin as AA in terms of premium seat counts?

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:33 pm
by compensateme
Uh no, DL's premium cabin in October is hardly sold out and likely has only a handful of passengers booked for the entire month.

Most business travelers book their travel within days, not months. DL's clearly blocking sales within the premium cabin - I'm not certain why, but there's no availability even next April or May.

Who knows? Maybe 738 and 739 will replace the D1 aircraft to SFO, while DL begins flying the D1 aircraft to its newest focus city, SJC. :bouncy:

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:47 pm
by wrldtvlr
I fly the route often on DL - it's all 757s except for a lone 767, but these flights are elite heavy all the time. I'm Platinum Medallion and on 20 flights I've been upgraded twice. There are a ton of Diamond members in NYC.

DL is looking to upgauge the JFK-SFO flights as they've done on JFK-LAX but they need to find the metal first.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:52 pm
by PA110
flyinghippo wrote:
I'm a DL flyer and going to SFO for a business trip in October. To my surprise, all business class on direct flights between JFK - SFO are sold out on DL. I even looked into 3Q/4Q of this year, 90% of the flights have their business cabins sold out. DL flies 757 with 16 D1 seats

Thoughts/Insights?


I just had a look at several random dates in October and there are plenty of revenue business class seats available for sale JFK to SFO. Were you looking for upgrade or redemption seats? If so, good luck. I think demand for revenue (paid) seats will keep those at slim to non-existent.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:56 pm
by senatorflyer
Btw, there are 4 seats available as we speak for tomorrow on DL610.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:11 pm
by airboss787
compensateme wrote:
Uh no, DL's premium cabin in October is hardly sold out and likely has only a handful of passengers booked for the entire month.

Most business travelers book their travel within days, not months. DL's clearly blocking sales within the premium cabin - I'm not certain why, but there's no availability even next April or May.

Who knows? Maybe 738 and 739 will replace the D1 aircraft to SFO, while DL begins flying the D1 aircraft to its newest focus city, SJC. :bouncy:


Whatever it is, availability on JFK-SFO for the entire month of October in D1 seems to be pretty sparse. A few days on weekends available only. 1 stop options are a little more but non-stop seem to be hard to come by.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:14 pm
by codc10
Most definitely a revenue management decision.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:30 pm
by dcaproducer
I just did a dummy search for Oct 14-18 and D1 is readily available. Fares range from $3,791-$5,178 RT. The higher fares are the first few flights of the day.
Are there specific dates you're looking at?

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:31 pm
by flyinghippo
Just tried to book again and now I see biz seats available... (13 Oct - 17 Oct)

Were they just blocking them? (I searched on Delta.com and Google Flights)

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:56 pm
by EA CO AS
flyinghippo wrote:
Just tried to book again and now I see biz seats available... (13 Oct - 17 Oct)

Were they just blocking them? (I searched on Delta.com and Google Flights)


Always book with the carrier, never with Google.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:58 pm
by STT757
UA needs to get back on Kennedy-SFO to compliment EWR.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:59 pm
by runningformqm
flyinghippo wrote:
Just tried to book again and now I see biz seats available... (13 Oct - 17 Oct)

Were they just blocking them? (I searched on Delta.com and Google Flights)


This usually happens on saturdays when dl does its weekly schedule changes. perhaps there was a midweek schedule update.

Also, the 767 doesnt seem to be on sfo-jfk all summer. Im a sfo based plat who regularly flies tcon.

It would be odd for the seats to be soldout that far in advance. There are usually a couple of seats available the day before and day of (but sold before T-60)

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:11 pm
by SEAxSANxBOS
EA CO AS wrote:
flyinghippo wrote:
Just tried to book again and now I see biz seats available... (13 Oct - 17 Oct)

Were they just blocking them? (I searched on Delta.com and Google Flights)


Always book with the carrier, never with Google.


My same advice I give to every passenger. Regardless of the airline you fly. Always check and ultimately book via their website.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:26 pm
by jayunited
lightsaber wrote:
Free business class is money losing. DL should probably expand,
At this time UA has reduced capacity due to the MAX grounding. I would assume their SFO hub is short of J seats until that is undone. So I assume DL is benefitting until UA can out the MAX back in the schedule.
Lightsaber


UA doesn't use any 737s on any EWR-SFO/LAX flights, the grounding of our 14 MAX9s has had no effect on our EWR-SFO/LAX schedule. Looking at UA's October schedule on Wednesday's which normally has the lightest schedule during the work week UA has 15 daily departures scheduled and on Saturdays in October UA has 10 departures scheduled varying from 78Xs to 77As, to 752s.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:13 am
by Cointrin330
lightsaber wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
While it would be nice to have seats available (not to mention room for upgrades), that airline business model is from days past. DL has been outspoken about wanting to grow and growing paid premium cabin seats. They seem to have no problem selling the seats, and that far out, probably at healthy fares.

Free business class is money losing. DL should probably expand,

At this time UA has reduced capacity due to the MAX grounding. I would assume their SFO hub is short of J seats until that is undone. So I assume DL is benefitting until UA can out the MAX back in the schedule.

Lightsaber


Yeah, no. The MAXs at UA were mainly flying out of IAH and some out of SFO, but regardless, we are talking about JFK-SFO (or NYC-SFO for that matter). The MAX groundings don't really impact the NYC-SFO market. UA flies the 757, 777, 787-10 on EWR-SFO-EWR and the model there is a little different. Premium heavy, but also HUB to HUB.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:01 am
by strfyr51
flyinghippo wrote:
I'm a DL flyer and going to SFO for a business trip in October. To my surprise, all business class on direct flights between JFK - SFO are sold out on DL. I even looked into 3Q/4Q of this year, 90% of the flights have their business cabins sold out. DL flies 757 with 16 D1 seats

Meanwhile, AA has plenty of C seats on their A321s on the same dates. They're using A321s with 20 C and 10F seats (Didn't search for F seats so not sure about their LF)

While AS also provide direct service between JFK/SFO, they do not have lie-flat seats.

Is DL underserving JFK/SFO route? Obviously, UA has EWR-SFO all wrapped up, but JFK-SFO still represents a significant market that DL can capitalize on - especially if their C cabins are consistently sold out. Does anyone have info on the premium cabin LFs for DL and AA?

Thoughts/Insights?

Have you actually called Delta to see if this is a programming Glitch? This doesn't seem right for EVERY Flight...

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:13 am
by sketch
EA CO AS wrote:
flyinghippo wrote:
Just tried to book again and now I see biz seats available... (13 Oct - 17 Oct)

Were they just blocking them? (I searched on Delta.com and Google Flights)


Always book with the carrier, never with Google.

It's impossible to book with Google. Google Flights is a search engine which, once you select an itinerary, gives you a link to the website (e.g., Delta.com) for the actual booking.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:21 am
by AEROFAN
dcaproducer wrote:
I just did a dummy search for Oct 14-18 and D1 is readily available. Fares range from $3,791-$5,178 RT. The higher fares are the first few flights of the day.
Are there specific dates you're looking at?


For domestic business/first? $5,000? You gots to be kidding. What kind of fool pays this sort of money for something which is only slightly better than economy class?

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:28 am
by rjmf22
New York-SFO is one of the most served markets in the US. It really doesn't help Delta that United serves the route with the most flights, even though it is out of EWR. For the month of July, they have 8 752's, 3 777-200's, and a 787-10 operating twelve daily flights. Not to mention it is between hub to hub service...

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:15 am
by flyinghippo
AEROFAN wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
I just did a dummy search for Oct 14-18 and D1 is readily available. Fares range from $3,791-$5,178 RT. The higher fares are the first few flights of the day.
Are there specific dates you're looking at?


For domestic business/first? $5,000? You gots to be kidding. What kind of fool pays this sort of money for something which is only slightly better than economy class?


JFK-SFO flights on both AA and DL are flatbeds. So it's significantly better than econ class.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:18 am
by Softaero
AEROFAN wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
I just did a dummy search for Oct 14-18 and D1 is readily available. Fares range from $3,791-$5,178 RT. The higher fares are the first few flights of the day.
Are there specific dates you're looking at?


For domestic business/first? $5,000? You gots to be kidding. What kind of fool pays this sort of money for something which is only slightly better than economy class?

It's a flat bed. It's not "slightly better than economy class".

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:34 am
by paperwastage
sketch wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
flyinghippo wrote:
Just tried to book again and now I see biz seats available... (13 Oct - 17 Oct)

Were they just blocking them? (I searched on Delta.com and Google Flights)


Always book with the carrier, never with Google.

It's impossible to book with Google. Google Flights is a search engine which, once you select an itinerary, gives you a link to the website (e.g., Delta.com) for the actual booking.

no, google flights started allowing you to book directly on their website

it doesn't always show up, and technically it's handled by the airline or some OTA in the background


https://support.google.com/travel/answer/7515668

Image

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:42 am
by tphuang
flyinghippo wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
I just did a dummy search for Oct 14-18 and D1 is readily available. Fares range from $3,791-$5,178 RT. The higher fares are the first few flights of the day.
Are there specific dates you're looking at?


For domestic business/first? $5,000? You gots to be kidding. What kind of fool pays this sort of money for something which is only slightly better than economy class?


JFK-SFO flights on both AA and DL are flatbeds. So it's significantly better than econ class.


There is always availability on AA for under $700 and they make it available for discount for closer to $550. Who in their right mind would pay that much for D1, when A321T J's available for 1/4 the price and has much better lounge situation at JFK. I've found plenty of savers availability on AA on this route. They are almost always the lowest priced.

wrldtvlr wrote:
I fly the route often on DL - it's all 757s except for a lone 767, but these flights are elite heavy all the time. I'm Platinum Medallion and on 20 flights I've been upgraded twice. There are a ton of Diamond members in NYC.

DL is looking to upgauge the JFK-SFO flights as they've done on JFK-LAX but they need to find the metal first.

They actually had more widebodies on this route in previous summers. Which means your second paragraph is false. And they've had no problem upgauging LAX when they wanted to. Reality is they are just not as strong on JFK-SFO as they are on JFK-LAX, which should surprise no one.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:44 am
by TW870
flyinghippo wrote:
I'm a DL flyer and going to SFO for a business trip in October. To my surprise, all business class on direct flights between JFK - SFO are sold out on DL. I even looked into 3Q/4Q of this year, 90% of the flights have their business cabins sold out. DL flies 757 with 16 D1 seats

Meanwhile, AA has plenty of C seats on their A321s on the same dates. They're using A321s with 20 C and 10F seats (Didn't search for F seats so not sure about their LF)

While AS also provide direct service between JFK/SFO, they do not have lie-flat seats.

Is DL underserving JFK/SFO route? Obviously, UA has EWR-SFO all wrapped up, but JFK-SFO still represents a significant market that DL can capitalize on - especially if their C cabins are consistently sold out. Does anyone have info on the premium cabin LFs for DL and AA?

Thoughts/Insights?


I concur with the OP that some days it is showing zero Delta One availability, but the issue is with Delta's booking engine. When I search Oct 21-24 on flexible dates, for example, for best fare for D1, it gives me zero availability at all for any date pairs around that time in D1. It actually prices domestic first JFK-SFO and gives you no non-stop options - even though I specifically preferenced D1. Best fare is $1400 JFK-SLC-SFO. But then when I flip back and just do a regular search for those dates, fares for D1 are available on all round trips non-stop, and are in the 3K-5K range RT. I have had this problem a few times lately. I couldn't get it to sell me any D1 tickets to HNL in November on any dates - unless I booked ATL-HNL nonstop with no connecting flights on either side. Then I came back the next day and bought a ticket using upgrade with miles to D1 on DAY-ATL-HNL . My guess is there are some software glitches they are working out. Call if you want to buy tickets on dates that don't show up. I promise you they are not sold out in D1 in October for JFK-SFO.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:13 am
by Sancho99504
tphuang wrote:
flyinghippo wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:

For domestic business/first? $5,000? You gots to be kidding. What kind of fool pays this sort of money for something which is only slightly better than economy class?


JFK-SFO flights on both AA and DL are flatbeds. So it's significantly better than econ class.


There is always availability on AA for under $700 and they make it available for discount for closer to $550. Who in their right mind would pay that much for D1, when A321T J's available for 1/4 the price and has much better lounge situation at JFK. I've found plenty of savers availability on AA on this route. They are almost always the lowest priced.

I just priced a round trip on AA in J JFK-SFO in first for 10/17-19 for $5,116.60.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:25 am
by Pellegrine
AEROFAN wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
I just did a dummy search for Oct 14-18 and D1 is readily available. Fares range from $3,791-$5,178 RT. The higher fares are the first few flights of the day.
Are there specific dates you're looking at?


For domestic business/first? $5,000? You gots to be kidding. What kind of fool pays this sort of money for something which is only slightly better than economy class?


People's employers pay mostly.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:16 am
by slcdeltarumd11
Maybe there was some temporary block on seats? I see seats on everyday , every flight that far away.

There is no way they are sold out, business people rarely make plans that far ahead. My bet is there was some block in place. You were looking at revenue seats paying cash, not for award saver or upgrades or something right? Maybe they plan to move some premium flights to SJC , could happen i guess and they were testing out a way to block seats for a potential future move. Either way i see premium seats on every flight that far ahead right now.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:03 pm
by dcaproducer
flyinghippo wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
I just did a dummy search for Oct 14-18 and D1 is readily available. Fares range from $3,791-$5,178 RT. The higher fares are the first few flights of the day.
Are there specific dates you're looking at?


For domestic business/first? $5,000? You gots to be kidding. What kind of fool pays this sort of money for something which is only slightly better than economy class?


JFK-SFO flights on both AA and DL are flatbeds. So it's significantly better than econ class.


This. Plus they provide D1 level meal service/catering, which is better than domestic F.
People pay for it. I fly the D1 route DCA-LAX-DCA a couple of times a year and it's always full.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:50 pm
by dmstorm22
Pellegrine wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
I just did a dummy search for Oct 14-18 and D1 is readily available. Fares range from $3,791-$5,178 RT. The higher fares are the first few flights of the day.
Are there specific dates you're looking at?


For domestic business/first? $5,000? You gots to be kidding. What kind of fool pays this sort of money for something which is only slightly better than economy class?


People's employers pay mostly.


True, but those employers, depending on size, are probably paying reasonably less than $5k (or whatever the general public is)

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:06 pm
by flyfresno
flyinghippo wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
Aren’t a few of the JFK-SFO flights on 767s?

Maybe - but all of the days/flights I searched only had 757s


Nope, you are right. They had 1-2 767s on it at one point. That changed I guess...

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:13 pm
by BravoOne
flyinghippo wrote:
I'm a DL flyer and going to SFO for a business trip in October. To my surprise, all business class on direct flights between JFK - SFO are sold out on DL. I even looked into 3Q/4Q of this year, 90% of the flights have their business cabins sold out. DL flies 757 with 16 D1 seats

Meanwhile, AA has plenty of C seats on their A321s on the same dates. They're using A321s with 20 C and 10F seats (Didn't search for F seats so not sure about their LF)

While AS also provide direct service between JFK/SFO, they do not have lie-flat seats.

Is DL underserving JFK/SFO route? Obviously, UA has EWR-SFO all wrapped up, but JFK-SFO still represents a significant market that DL can capitalize on - especially if their C cabins are consistently sold out. Does anyone have info on the premium cabin LFs for DL and AA?

Thoughts/Insights?


So what dates are you proposing for this October trip?

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:43 pm
by AEROFAN
Pellegrine wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
I just did a dummy search for Oct 14-18 and D1 is readily available. Fares range from $3,791-$5,178 RT. The higher fares are the first few flights of the day.
Are there specific dates you're looking at?


For domestic business/first? $5,000? You gots to be kidding. What kind of fool pays this sort of money for something which is only slightly better than economy class?


People's employers pay mostly.


Really? For domestic travel? Interesting. Mine doesn't. We are allowed to book business for international flights of 6+ but definitely cannot do so for domestic travel.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:48 pm
by AEROFAN
Softaero wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
I just did a dummy search for Oct 14-18 and D1 is readily available. Fares range from $3,791-$5,178 RT. The higher fares are the first few flights of the day.
Are there specific dates you're looking at?


For domestic business/first? $5,000? You gots to be kidding. What kind of fool pays this sort of money for something which is only slightly better than economy class?

It's a flat bed. It's not "slightly better than economy class".


According to all of the trip reports on Youtube - it is slightly better.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:51 pm
by AEROFAN
Sancho99504 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
flyinghippo wrote:

JFK-SFO flights on both AA and DL are flatbeds. So it's significantly better than econ class.


There is always availability on AA for under $700 and they make it available for discount for closer to $550. Who in their right mind would pay that much for D1, when A321T J's available for 1/4 the price and has much better lounge situation at JFK. I've found plenty of savers availability on AA on this route. They are almost always the lowest priced.

I just priced a round trip on AA in J JFK-SFO in first for 10/17-19 for $5,116.60.


HA :lol: I am travelling to later this year on vacation using American and Qatar in J. I paid a little more than half that.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:08 pm
by dmstorm22
AEROFAN wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:

For domestic business/first? $5,000? You gots to be kidding. What kind of fool pays this sort of money for something which is only slightly better than economy class?


People's employers pay mostly.


Really? For domestic travel? Interesting. Mine doesn't. We are allowed to book business for international flights of 6+ but definitely cannot do so for domestic travel.


Every company is different. There's enough traffic on NYC-SFO (or NYC-LAX) that they can fill the front with the company's that do allow it.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:26 pm
by AEROFAN
dmstorm22 wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:

People's employers pay mostly.


Really? For domestic travel? Interesting. Mine doesn't. We are allowed to book business for international flights of 6+ but definitely cannot do so for domestic travel.


Every company is different. There's enough traffic on NYC-SFO (or NYC-LAX) that they can fill the front with the company's that do allow it.


Clearly there is; consequently the price points.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:33 pm
by twicearound
AEROFAN wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
I just did a dummy search for Oct 14-18 and D1 is readily available. Fares range from $3,791-$5,178 RT. The higher fares are the first few flights of the day.
Are there specific dates you're looking at?


For domestic business/first? $5,000? You gots to be kidding. What kind of fool pays this sort of money for something which is only slightly better than economy class?


how is it only slightly better than economy?

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:19 pm
by catiii
flyinghippo wrote:
I'm a DL flyer and going to SFO for a business trip in October. To my surprise, all business class on direct flights between JFK - SFO are sold out on DL. I even looked into 3Q/4Q of this year, 90% of the flights have their business cabins sold out. DL flies 757 with 16 D1 seats

Meanwhile, AA has plenty of C seats on their A321s on the same dates. They're using A321s with 20 C and 10F seats (Didn't search for F seats so not sure about their LF)

While AS also provide direct service between JFK/SFO, they do not have lie-flat seats.

Is DL underserving JFK/SFO route? Obviously, UA has EWR-SFO all wrapped up, but JFK-SFO still represents a significant market that DL can capitalize on - especially if their C cabins are consistently sold out. Does anyone have info on the premium cabin LFs for DL and AA?

Thoughts/Insights?


Try JetBlue if you're looking for an alternative lay flat between JFK and SFO...

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:30 pm
by wrldtvlr
tphuang wrote:
wrldtvlr wrote:
I fly the route often on DL - it's all 757s except for a lone 767, but these flights are elite heavy all the time. I'm Platinum Medallion and on 20 flights I've been upgraded twice. There are a ton of Diamond members in NYC.

DL is looking to upgauge the JFK-SFO flights as they've done on JFK-LAX but they need to find the metal first.

They actually had more widebodies on this route in previous summers. Which means your second paragraph is false. And they've had no problem upgauging LAX when they wanted to. Reality is they are just not as strong on JFK-SFO as they are on JFK-LAX, which should surprise no one.

I happen to sit on an Advisory Board for Delta Sales, so I have a bit more insight into these things than most.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:21 pm
by tlecam
AEROFAN wrote:
Softaero wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:

For domestic business/first? $5,000? You gots to be kidding. What kind of fool pays this sort of money for something which is only slightly better than economy class?

It's a flat bed. It's not "slightly better than economy class".


According to all of the trip reports on Youtube - it is slightly better.


Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but
- having flown in domestic first just last night from ORD-LGA
- having flown SFO-JFK in D1 a few months ago, and also having flown Mint and AA's 321T in J
- having flown Europe - JFK in J two weeks ago

The latter two are very similar, and there is a huge difference from the first.

I hate red eyes from the west to east coast, but the lay flat seat makes it manageable.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:23 pm
by tlecam
AEROFAN wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:

For domestic business/first? $5,000? You gots to be kidding. What kind of fool pays this sort of money for something which is only slightly better than economy class?


People's employers pay mostly.


Really? For domestic travel? Interesting. Mine doesn't. We are allowed to book business for international flights of 6+ but definitely cannot do so for domestic travel.


Our senior executives and people designated as "Frequent flyers" by the company can fly paid J for domestic flights over 4 hours.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:54 pm
by tphuang
wrldtvlr wrote:
tphuang wrote:
wrldtvlr wrote:
I fly the route often on DL - it's all 757s except for a lone 767, but these flights are elite heavy all the time. I'm Platinum Medallion and on 20 flights I've been upgraded twice. There are a ton of Diamond members in NYC.

DL is looking to upgauge the JFK-SFO flights as they've done on JFK-LAX but they need to find the metal first.

They actually had more widebodies on this route in previous summers. Which means your second paragraph is false. And they've had no problem upgauging LAX when they wanted to. Reality is they are just not as strong on JFK-SFO as they are on JFK-LAX, which should surprise no one.

I happen to sit on an Advisory Board for Delta Sales, so I have a bit more insight into these things than most.


I'm sure you do. But keep this in mind. For all of 2018,
DL on JFK-LAX had 89% LF with those flights having 215 seat per flight.
DL on JFK-SFO had 85% LF with those flights having 186 seat per flight.
Since the in Q1 of 2019,
DL on JFK-LAX had 83% LF with those flights having 222 seat per flight.
DL on JFK-SFO had 78% LF with those flights having 180 seat per flight.

And for this summer, they are running all 757s, which is 168 seat per flight. On JFK-LAX, they are running 3 757s, 6 767s and 1 A332.

And I check in december, they are runing all 757s on JFK-SFO and all 767s on JFK-LAX.

So they have enough 767s to completely upgauge LAX but then chose to downgauge SFO to all 757s (vs having 2 767s last summer).

Based on their lower LF on JFK-SFO, it seems to be far more reasonable that they are doing this because 767s represent too much J and Y capacity on a route where they only hub on one end. It's quite plausible the route planners have a different view than the sales team.

Re: Is DL under serving JFK/SFO business?

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:30 pm
by AEROFAN
tlecam wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:

People's employers pay mostly.


Really? For domestic travel? Interesting. Mine doesn't. We are allowed to book business for international flights of 6+ but definitely cannot do so for domestic travel.


Our senior executives and people designated as "Frequent flyers" by the company can fly paid J for domestic flights over 4 hours.

Interesting. No one can on the company's dime - not even senior executives. One can however upgrade at one's own cost.