YYZORD
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YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:03 pm

I was going through the draft 2018 master plan for YTZ Toronto Billy Bishop Airport which was released yesterday and I noticed that they plan to have a 24 slot increase by 2021 and then an additional 20 slot increase by 2023. This makes the slot increase for the forseeable future at about 44 slot increase in total. I was thinking what PD and AC can add with these additional 44 slots depending on which carrier gets how many extra slots at YTZ. Growth is pretty limited with the range of the q400 unless PD expands more to the US or they add YWG. Here are my guesses with the q400 fleet for both airlines:

AC: YTZ-EWR, YTZ-ORD (Both routes can be good for UA connections after the AC/UA JV)
PD: YTZ-PHL, YTZ-YWG, YTZ-ATL (Since the Q400 can go all the way to MYR)
PD after US Customs Preclearance Opens at YTZ: YTZ-LGA (move some flights from EWR), YTZ-DCA (move all flights from IAD) YTZ-JFK (maybe for B6 connections and not having to go through customs at JFK)

http://www.billybishopairportmasterplan ... 19_eng.pdf
 
ScottB
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:23 pm

YYZORD wrote:
PD after US Customs Preclearance Opens at YTZ: YTZ-LGA (move some flights from EWR), YTZ-DCA (move all flights from IAD) YTZ-JFK (maybe for B6 connections and not having to go through customs at JFK)


Good luck getting slots at either LGA or DCA.
 
tphuang
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:29 pm

Does Porter actually want more slots or will it be forced to claim them to prevent ac from getting larger share of the market?
 
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OA940
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:35 pm

If only they could expand it and let Porter get those A220s
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WeatherPilot
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:38 pm

Maybe YYZ-ROC/SYR/MDT will come back.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:44 pm

ScottB wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
PD after US Customs Preclearance Opens at YTZ: YTZ-LGA (move some flights from EWR), YTZ-DCA (move all flights from IAD) YTZ-JFK (maybe for B6 connections and not having to go through customs at JFK)


Good luck getting slots at either LGA or DCA.


As a new entrant, PD would have an advantage in any proceeding to allocate slots at LGA/DCA. I doubt that the AC/UA joint venture will result in divestments at either place but some LGA slots might become available as a result of DL/WS. PD would be wise to pick those up and park them (either on YUL/YOW-LGA or with a small YYZ operation) until they can get preclearance at YTZ squared away.
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AWACSooner
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:52 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
Maybe YYZ-ROC/SYR/MDT will come back.

We are talking YTZ here
 
Jetsouth
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:58 pm

It would be great if PD offered services to London, or Kitchener using the new slots. It would allow many of us living west of Toronto another option to either commute to downtown Toronto and avoid the traffic, or to connect via YTZ to another PD destination and avoid YYZ. Currently, AC and Westjet offer London to YYZ service, so it would make sense for PD to offer a similar service to YTZ
 
Jetsouth
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:58 pm

It would be great if PD offered services to London, or Kitchener using the new slots. It would allow many of us living west of Toronto another option to either commute to downtown Toronto and avoid the traffic, or to connect via YTZ to another PD destination and avoid YYZ. Currently, AC and Westjet offer London to YYZ service, so it would make sense for PD to offer a similar service to YTZ
 
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compensateme
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:01 pm

Good to know that the next time I'm hanging out in Downtown Toronto, there will be more noisy turoprops for my audible pleasure.

Jetsouth wrote:
It would be great if PD offered services to London, or Kitchener using the new slots. It would allow many of us living west of Toronto another option to either commute to downtown Toronto and avoid the traffic, or to connect via YTZ to another PD destination and avoid YYZ. Currently, AC and Westjet offer London to YYZ service, so it would make sense for PD to offer a similar service to YTZ


For connections sure, but how many people are realistically going to fly between London and Toronto? (Note the word REALISTIC. People typically do not spend $200-$300 just to avoid traffic, when their actual time savings is likely to be negative). And how many flights does YXU-YTO need? It peaks at 12-13 as it is, with most flights operated by the larger Q400.
Last edited by compensateme on Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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WeatherPilot
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:03 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
Maybe YYZ-ROC/SYR/MDT will come back.

We are talking YTZ here


Soory,

Maybe they’ll add YTZ-ROC/SYR/MDT.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:05 pm

Could PD partner with AA to take over the latter's LGA operations to Toronto? It's a pretty limited offering as it is, and flying to YTZ might give them a bit of a niche in the market against the much larger AC and DL/WS operations. In fact, a broader partnership with AA probably makes some sense for PD considering its lack of a Canadian partner.
 
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compensateme
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:09 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
Could PD partner with AA to take over the latter's LGA operations to Toronto? It's a pretty limited offering as it is, and flying to YTZ might give them a bit of a niche in the market against the much larger AC and DL/WS operations. In fact, a broader partnership with AA probably makes some sense for PD considering its lack of a Canadian partner.


Surly you don't think the average American business traveler would desire to fly on a turboprop over a regional jet, even if PD's experience blows AA's away?
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
NCAD95
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:49 pm

DTW-YTZ would be a great add for Porter.
 
ScottB
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:10 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
some LGA slots might become available as a result of DL/WS. PD would be wise to pick those up and park them (either on YUL/YOW-LGA or with a small YYZ operation) until they can get preclearance at YTZ squared away.


I honestly don't see DL being willing to give up any appreciable number of LGA slots (i.e. more than one or two) to make a joint venture with WS happen, and it's probably tough for the government to make that case with so little overlap between the two; DL doesn't serve YYZ from LGA and WS doesn't serve YUL, YOW, or YHZ from LGA. Even in the event of DL/WS agreeing to divest slots at LGA, I'd expect B6 or NK to outbid what PD would be willing to pay (I'm assuming WN now controls too many slots to be eligible).
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:16 pm

compensateme wrote:
Good to know that the next time I'm hanging out in Downtown Toronto, there will be more noisy turoprops for my audible pleasure.

Jetsouth wrote:
It would be great if PD offered services to London, or Kitchener using the new slots. It would allow many of us living west of Toronto another option to either commute to downtown Toronto and avoid the traffic, or to connect via YTZ to another PD destination and avoid YYZ. Currently, AC and Westjet offer London to YYZ service, so it would make sense for PD to offer a similar service to YTZ


For connections sure, but how many people are realistically going to fly between London and Toronto? (Note the word REALISTIC. People typically do not spend $200-$300 just to avoid traffic, when their actual time savings is likely to be negative). And how many flights does YXU-YTO need? It peaks at 12-13 as it is, with most flights operated by the larger Q400.


London perhaps not. But I have been genuinely surprised at how well they do at YQG, especially up against sometimes 8 AC a day to YYZ, and DL to YYZ from DTW.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:49 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Good to know that the next time I'm hanging out in Downtown Toronto, there will be more noisy turoprops for my audible pleasure.

Jetsouth wrote:
It would be great if PD offered services to London, or Kitchener using the new slots. It would allow many of us living west of Toronto another option to either commute to downtown Toronto and avoid the traffic, or to connect via YTZ to another PD destination and avoid YYZ. Currently, AC and Westjet offer London to YYZ service, so it would make sense for PD to offer a similar service to YTZ


For connections sure, but how many people are realistically going to fly between London and Toronto? (Note the word REALISTIC. People typically do not spend $200-$300 just to avoid traffic, when their actual time savings is likely to be negative). And how many flights does YXU-YTO need? It peaks at 12-13 as it is, with most flights operated by the larger Q400.


London perhaps not. But I have been genuinely surprised at how well they do at YQG, especially up against sometimes 8 AC a day to YYZ, and DL to YYZ from DTW.


I think London and Windsor are fundamentally different because of the distance, though. YQG-YTZ is a time saver to just about anywhere in downtown Toronto and even some points farther afield. YXU-YTZ probably isn't. YTZ is convenient, but the 15-20 minute walk/Uber/streetcar ride to most of the places in Toronto that people actually want to go looms a lot larger when the drive is as short as it is from London. And connecting from YXU doesn't make much sense either when there is more frequent service to the larger hub at YYZ.

ScottB wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
some LGA slots might become available as a result of DL/WS. PD would be wise to pick those up and park them (either on YUL/YOW-LGA or with a small YYZ operation) until they can get preclearance at YTZ squared away.


I honestly don't see DL being willing to give up any appreciable number of LGA slots (i.e. more than one or two) to make a joint venture with WS happen, and it's probably tough for the government to make that case with so little overlap between the two; DL doesn't serve YYZ from LGA and WS doesn't serve YUL, YOW, or YHZ from LGA. Even in the event of DL/WS agreeing to divest slots at LGA, I'd expect B6 or NK to outbid what PD would be willing to pay (I'm assuming WN now controls too many slots to be eligible).


I don't know that "eligible" has a definition that we know, but I don't disagree with you about the likely outcome of a bidding war if B6 were eligible; I'm less sure of the value of LGA slots to NK.
Last edited by Cubsrule on Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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YYZLGA
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:56 pm

compensateme wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
Could PD partner with AA to take over the latter's LGA operations to Toronto? It's a pretty limited offering as it is, and flying to YTZ might give them a bit of a niche in the market against the much larger AC and DL/WS operations. In fact, a broader partnership with AA probably makes some sense for PD considering its lack of a Canadian partner.


Surly you don't think the average American business traveler would desire to fly on a turboprop over a regional jet, even if PD's experience blows AA's away?


I know that's definitely an issue with Americans, but Porter has a premium reputation at least in Canada, regardless of aircraft type. Perhaps they could do a bit of marketing work to extend that to the New York market. On the other hand, the AA operation to YYZ is clearly marginal anyway--likely mostly to serve travellers who are tied by contract or FF to AA. Prop or otherwise, they're not likely to have much of a choice, so there may not be much to lose for AA.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:13 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
compensateme wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
Could PD partner with AA to take over the latter's LGA operations to Toronto? It's a pretty limited offering as it is, and flying to YTZ might give them a bit of a niche in the market against the much larger AC and DL/WS operations. In fact, a broader partnership with AA probably makes some sense for PD considering its lack of a Canadian partner.


Surly you don't think the average American business traveler would desire to fly on a turboprop over a regional jet, even if PD's experience blows AA's away?


I know that's definitely an issue with Americans, but Porter has a premium reputation at least in Canada, regardless of aircraft type. Perhaps they could do a bit of marketing work to extend that to the New York market. On the other hand, the AA operation to YYZ is clearly marginal anyway--likely mostly to serve travellers who are tied by contract or FF to AA. Prop or otherwise, they're not likely to have much of a choice, so there may not be much to lose for AA.


As between a DH4 to YTZ and some AA jet to YYZ Terminal 3, the choice isn't hard. I flew PD with the family last week. My wife - who has not-so-fond 90s memories of Jetstreams, old Dash-8s and the like, commented on what a pleasant prop experience it was and told me that she would not hesitate to fly PD again based on the service and the ease of YTZ. My kids recognized that the airplane was different (both liked being able to see the landing gear retract and extend) but certainly expressed no preference for jets.
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compensateme
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:04 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
compensateme wrote:

Surly you don't think the average American business traveler would desire to fly on a turboprop over a regional jet, even if PD's experience blows AA's away?


I know that's definitely an issue with Americans, but Porter has a premium reputation at least in Canada, regardless of aircraft type. Perhaps they could do a bit of marketing work to extend that to the New York market. On the other hand, the AA operation to YYZ is clearly marginal anyway--likely mostly to serve travellers who are tied by contract or FF to AA. Prop or otherwise, they're not likely to have much of a choice, so there may not be much to lose for AA.


As between a DH4 to YTZ and some AA jet to YYZ Terminal 3, the choice isn't hard. I flew PD with the family last week. My wife - who has not-so-fond 90s memories of Jetstreams, old Dash-8s and the like, commented on what a pleasant prop experience it was and told me that she would not hesitate to fly PD again based on the service and the ease of YTZ. My kids recognized that the airplane was different (both liked being able to see the landing gear retract and extend) but certainly expressed no preference for jets.


My family is just the opposite - the props give them headaches or air sickness, etc. The (free) lounge use to be a huge distraction, but when I was last there they were in the process of removing it..

Still, it's a huge time saver if your final destination is DT Toronto.
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Cubsrule
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:20 pm

compensateme wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:

I know that's definitely an issue with Americans, but Porter has a premium reputation at least in Canada, regardless of aircraft type. Perhaps they could do a bit of marketing work to extend that to the New York market. On the other hand, the AA operation to YYZ is clearly marginal anyway--likely mostly to serve travellers who are tied by contract or FF to AA. Prop or otherwise, they're not likely to have much of a choice, so there may not be much to lose for AA.


As between a DH4 to YTZ and some AA jet to YYZ Terminal 3, the choice isn't hard. I flew PD with the family last week. My wife - who has not-so-fond 90s memories of Jetstreams, old Dash-8s and the like, commented on what a pleasant prop experience it was and told me that she would not hesitate to fly PD again based on the service and the ease of YTZ. My kids recognized that the airplane was different (both liked being able to see the landing gear retract and extend) but certainly expressed no preference for jets.


My family is just the opposite - the props give them headaches or air sickness, etc. The (free) lounge use to be a huge distraction, but when I was last there they were in the process of removing it..

Still, it's a huge time saver if your final destination is DT Toronto.


That’s fair; maybe it’s a matter of how much the convenience matters. PD is also surprisingly price-competitive on transborder with some advance purchase, especially during their seemingly continual sales.
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NWADTWE16
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:39 am

PD is a great airline, and YTZ is an absolute GEM! On the other hand YYZ is earning more and more of a horrible reputation every year, so all signs point to PD & YTZ growth, except for the loud Nimbys

I've gone out of my way to catch the Windsor-YTZ Porter and I mean, frustratingly out of the way due to the border bus (No Uber can cross). Every time I have been at Windsor , Air Canada was cancelling one or many flights to YYZ and Porter was just sitting there, on time ready to pounce.

really pulling for this airline. AC & YYZ are horrid
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Bobloblaw
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:03 pm

YYZ-YHZ is the obvious add. No one has mentioned it
 
smallmj
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:10 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
YYZ-YHZ is the obvious add. No one has mentioned it


I always assumed that YTZ-YHZ was just outside the range of a Q400 and that's why they tag it on to the YHZ-YOW flight. They fly YTZ-YQM, but not a non-stop direct YTZ-YHZ. However, the published specs show that YHZ is well withing range. I'm sure lots of Haligonians avoid Porter because they don't want a 1-stop flight.
 
wave46
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:31 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
YYZ-YHZ is the obvious add. No one has mentioned it


That would seem to be the most obvious one to me as well.

I'm not sure the additional slots will really get used by either AC or Porter though.

Porter seems to be bumping its head on viable destinations as they've tried a few US and Canadian destinations that haven't panned out - Pittsburgh, North Bay and Burlington.

AC is mostly there to keep Porter from running away with their premium Montreal business customers. I don't see their business plan there as anything other than 'keep Porter in check'.

The US airlines are out as they're exclusively jet operations and Westjet has built its Eastern hub around Pearson.
 
YYZORD
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:46 pm

PD should've added PHL instead of PIT cause the airline caters most to business people and PHL is more of a business center. Also easy connections to airlines like QR.

wave46 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
YYZ-YHZ is the obvious add. No one has mentioned it


That would seem to be the most obvious one to me as well.

I'm not sure the additional slots will really get used by either AC or Porter though.

Porter seems to be bumping its head on viable destinations as they've tried a few US and Canadian destinations that haven't panned out - Pittsburgh, North Bay and Burlington.

AC is mostly there to keep Porter from running away with their premium Montreal business customers. I don't see their business plan there as anything other than 'keep Porter in check'.

The US airlines are out as they're exclusively jet operations and Westjet has built its Eastern hub around Pearson.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:00 pm

NWADTWE16 wrote:
PD is a great airline, and YTZ is an absolute GEM! On the other hand YYZ is earning more and more of a horrible reputation every year, so all signs point to PD & YTZ growth, except for the loud Nimbys

I've gone out of my way to catch the Windsor-YTZ Porter and I mean, frustratingly out of the way due to the border bus (No Uber can cross). Every time I have been at Windsor , Air Canada was cancelling one or many flights to YYZ and Porter was just sitting there, on time ready to pounce.

really pulling for this airline. AC & YYZ are horrid


I'm hoping a change in government will allow PD to operate the 220s out of YTZ. This slot increase would definitely help in that regard
 
YYZLGA
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:25 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
I'm hoping a change in government will allow PD to operate the 220s out of YTZ. This slot increase would definitely help in that regard


Maybe, but not sure what change would make that happen. Replacing Miller with Ford and now Tory hasn't changed anything at the municipal level, and neither the Tories nor the Liberals when in power federally have favoured the change. It seems like the revelation that they would have to fill in some of the harbour to extend the runway put off a lot of people who might have been sympathetic.
Last edited by YYZLGA on Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
YYZORD
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:26 pm

With Doug Ford being premier and Andrew Scheer winning the federal election this october, YTZ will become a game changer for sure!

INFINITI329 wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
PD is a great airline, and YTZ is an absolute GEM! On the other hand YYZ is earning more and more of a horrible reputation every year, so all signs point to PD & YTZ growth, except for the loud Nimbys

I've gone out of my way to catch the Windsor-YTZ Porter and I mean, frustratingly out of the way due to the border bus (No Uber can cross). Every time I have been at Windsor , Air Canada was cancelling one or many flights to YYZ and Porter was just sitting there, on time ready to pounce.

really pulling for this airline. AC & YYZ are horrid


I'm hoping a change in government will allow PD to operate the 220s out of YTZ. This slot increase would definitely help in that regard
 
YYZLGA
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:27 pm

YYZORD wrote:
With Doug Ford being premier and Andrew Scheer winning the federal election this october, YTZ will become a game changer for sure!


The Tories were in power for a decade federally and they never allowed any change. The change in provincial government doesn't mean much since it isn't a provincial matter.
 
klakzky123
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:32 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
I'm hoping a change in government will allow PD to operate the 220s out of YTZ. This slot increase would definitely help in that regard


Maybe, but not sure what change would make that happen. Replacing Miller with Ford and now Tory hasn't changed anything at the municipal level, and neither the Tories nor the Liberals when in power federally have favoured the change. It seems like the revelation that they would have to fill in some of the harbour to extend the runway put off a lot of people who might have been sympathetic.


I thought the Harper government was seriously considering opening up YTZ to jets. The issue was that momentum on the issue was only happening right before the election so there was a change in government and the Liberals quickly killed the issue since they openly campaigned on keeping the current agreement in place.

But either way its a three party agreement so as you point out, they need city council and the Ontario government to also agree to this. But having a federal government open to changing the current agreement would at least force the province and city to at least think about the issue. Right now, there's no point. The Federal Government has 100% opposed any changes to the current arrangement so the discussion has been pointless.
 
Dominion301
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:38 pm

YYZORD wrote:
I was going through the draft 2018 master plan for YTZ Toronto Billy Bishop Airport which was released yesterday and I noticed that they plan to have a 24 slot increase by 2021 and then an additional 20 slot increase by 2023. This makes the slot increase for the forseeable future at about 44 slot increase in total. I was thinking what PD and AC can add with these additional 44 slots depending on which carrier gets how many extra slots at YTZ. Growth is pretty limited with the range of the q400 unless PD expands more to the US or they add YWG. Here are my guesses with the q400 fleet for both airlines:

AC: YTZ-EWR, YTZ-ORD (Both routes can be good for UA connections after the AC/UA JV)
PD: YTZ-PHL, YTZ-YWG, YTZ-ATL (Since the Q400 can go all the way to MYR)
PD after US Customs Preclearance Opens at YTZ: YTZ-LGA (move some flights from EWR), YTZ-DCA (move all flights from IAD) YTZ-JFK (maybe for B6 connections and not having to go through customs at JFK)

http://www.billybishopairportmasterplan ... 19_eng.pdf


If new slots become available and AC are awarded some, it would be just about guaranteed they’d use them for YTZ-YOW before anything else. I’m sure they ideally would want 10x daily in order to offer service every 90 minutes in order to be fairly competitive with PD’s 15-18x on weekdays depending upon the time of year. YOW also offers some onward connection options. AC’s original expectation was to be awarded 25 slot pairs to fly YUL & YOW from YTZ as originally Sky Regional had a fleet of 5 Q400s to operate these. However to AC’s surprise they were only awarded 15 slots and had to use the unexpected excess Q400 capacity on YUL-YQM and a couple of YQB-YUL rotations per day. Now all the Qs are with Jazz of course.

Here’s hoping that the slot increases are approved.

Jetsouth wrote:
It would be great if PD offered services to London, or Kitchener using the new slots. It would allow many of us living west of Toronto another option to either commute to downtown Toronto and avoid the traffic, or to connect via YTZ to another PD destination and avoid YYZ. Currently, AC and Westjet offer London to YYZ service, so it would make sense for PD to offer a similar service to YTZ


Well there’s already service on YKF-YTZ with Fly GTA. YXU-YTZ wouldn’t provide PD with any meaningful O&D traffic, which if you look at their route network, you can see it is something PD always want.

smallmj wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
YYZ-YHZ is the obvious add. No one has mentioned it


I always assumed that YTZ-YHZ was just outside the range of a Q400 and that's why they tag it on to the YHZ-YOW flight. They fly YTZ-YQM, but not a non-stop direct YTZ-YHZ. However, the published specs show that YHZ is well withing range. I'm sure lots of Haligonians avoid Porter because they don't want a 1-stop flight.


That’s exactly why. YTZ-YHZ would be weight restricted. Do lots of Haligonians avoid Porter or just avoid them to Toronto? If you’re going to downtown Toronto, the 1/2 hour stop and slightly slower flight times are basically a wash with the added time of dealing with YYZ.

Don’t forget about the significant amount of O&D to YUL & YOW on those routes. Even if there are only on average 15 YHZ-YTZ thru pax PD have no trouble filling those flights on either leg. The one leg of the route where they were struggling in low season was to YYT (now that’s a lot of extra time to Toronto), hence why YYT’s been seasonal for a few years now.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2071
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:13 pm

YYZORD wrote:
PD should've added PHL instead of PIT cause the airline caters most to business people and PHL is more of a business center. Also easy connections to airlines like QR.

wave46 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
YYZ-YHZ is the obvious add. No one has mentioned it


That would seem to be the most obvious one to me as well.

I'm not sure the additional slots will really get used by either AC or Porter though.

Porter seems to be bumping its head on viable destinations as they've tried a few US and Canadian destinations that haven't panned out - Pittsburgh, North Bay and Burlington.

AC is mostly there to keep Porter from running away with their premium Montreal business customers. I don't see their business plan there as anything other than 'keep Porter in check'.

The US airlines are out as they're exclusively jet operations and Westjet has built its Eastern hub around Pearson.


I’d imagine PHL would be the next PD addition if they get more slots. You’re right about PIT being less of a biz route than PHL and PD really didn’t have adequate slots to operate it.

wave46 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
YYZ-YHZ is the obvious add. No one has mentioned it


That would seem to be the most obvious one to me as well.

I'm not sure the additional slots will really get used by either AC or Porter though.

Porter seems to be bumping its head on viable destinations as they've tried a few US and Canadian destinations that haven't panned out - Pittsburgh, North Bay and Burlington.

AC is mostly there to keep Porter from running away with their premium Montreal business customers. I don't see their business plan there as anything other than 'keep Porter in check'.

The US airlines are out as they're exclusively jet operations and Westjet has built its Eastern hub around Pearson.


PD said the problem with BTV was inadequate customs facilities that they had to partially pay for. I fully expect seasonal BTV to return once preclearance comes online at YTZ.

As for YYB North Bay’s failure, again they only had enough slots to fly it 1x and they also thought there was unserved O&D traffic demand for YYB-YTS. Even though Porter is seen as Northern Ontario’s hometown airline, YYB is too close to Toronto for meaningful O&D traffic whereas Sudbury is far enough (plus 3 times bigger). It’s like London vs Windsor. YQG is just far enough away from Toronto to have good amounts of O&D demand.
 
YKF
Posts: 11
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:53 pm

I have found PD to be great for traveling to Northern Ontario (YAM in particular). As for growth, I would like to see PD add DTW, IND, and PHL. I would assume that those 3 markets would be larger than PIT in terms of route potential.

As for service to YXU and YKF, those routes would ideally be served with better (and faster) rail service.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2071
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:42 pm

YKF wrote:
I have found PD to be great for traveling to Northern Ontario (YAM in particular). As for growth, I would like to see PD add DTW, IND, and PHL. I would assume that those 3 markets would be larger than PIT in terms of route potential.

As for service to YXU and YKF, those routes would ideally be served with better (and faster) rail service.


I can’t imagine there’s enough O&D to support YTZ-IND. PHL definitely, DTW probably. What else in the US is left? CLE? Again the O&D is probably too small.
 
YYZORD
Topic Author
Posts: 265
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Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:52 pm

For US transborder, I'd say PHL and ATL for business travelers. DTW maybe. If PD ever partners with AA, PHL is a game changer and they can even add CLT for onward connections. ORD is an AA hub but I don't think they'd move from MDW, the fact both YTZ and MDW are close proximity to their downtown is what makes the route so attractive for business travellers. If PD does get the extra slots maybe they can serve both MDW and ORD like DL does but that's just if they have the extra slots to waste. LGA and DCA are AA hubs but preclearance needs to come first!
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13773
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:53 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
YKF wrote:
I have found PD to be great for traveling to Northern Ontario (YAM in particular). As for growth, I would like to see PD add DTW, IND, and PHL. I would assume that those 3 markets would be larger than PIT in terms of route potential.

As for service to YXU and YKF, those routes would ideally be served with better (and faster) rail service.


I can’t imagine there’s enough O&D to support YTZ-IND. PHL definitely, DTW probably. What else in the US is left? CLE? Again the O&D is probably too small.


There’s likely a fair amount of auto-related demand on DTW-Toronto; the trouble is that the vast majority of that demand is to places that are either more convenient to YYZ (Mississauga, Oakville, Cambridge) or no more convenient to YTZ.

But you may be underestimating the usable range of the DH4 to YTZ. ATL, BNA, CLT, CMH, CVG, RDU, and STL are all probably operationally doable (the commercial case for each is a different matter).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
CRJ 900
Posts: 552
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 4:41 am

Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:50 pm

I don't believe getting slots into DCA is easy at all. To be exact AC (and affiliates) is the ONLY foreign carrier authorized to fly into that airport. So there is a lot more to it than getting awarded a slot there.
 
ghYHZ
Posts: 394
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:26 pm

Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:30 pm

Surprised they haven't started YYG....at least seasonal. Prince Edward Island is a popular summer tourist destination.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13773
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:36 pm

CRJ 900 wrote:
I don't believe getting slots into DCA is easy at all. To be exact AC (and affiliates) is the ONLY foreign carrier authorized to fly into that airport. So there is a lot more to it than getting awarded a slot there.


What do you mean by “authorized?” Any Canadian carrier who asked could get the traffic rights. Slots are the issue.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2071
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:20 am

ghYHZ wrote:
Surprised they haven't started YYG....at least seasonal. Prince Edward Island is a popular summer tourist destination.


Very true and same with YQY (in summer). AC are upping YOW to 2x this summer but don’t fly it year-round. Seems like an expansion opportunity for PD...if they have adequate slack in their fleet or expand it down the road.

Cubsrule wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
YKF wrote:
I have found PD to be great for traveling to Northern Ontario (YAM in particular). As for growth, I would like to see PD add DTW, IND, and PHL. I would assume that those 3 markets would be larger than PIT in terms of route potential.

As for service to YXU and YKF, those routes would ideally be served with better (and faster) rail service.


I can’t imagine there’s enough O&D to support YTZ-IND. PHL definitely, DTW probably. What else in the US is left? CLE? Again the O&D is probably too small.


There’s likely a fair amount of auto-related demand on DTW-Toronto; the trouble is that the vast majority of that demand is to places that are either more convenient to YYZ (Mississauga, Oakville, Cambridge) or no more convenient to YTZ.

But you may be underestimating the usable range of the DH4 to YTZ. ATL, BNA, CLT, CMH, CVG, RDU, and STL are all probably operationally doable (the commercial case for each is a different matter).


True YTZ’s reach is as far as MLB, but I believe PD weight restrict the route to 55 seats. ATL would probably be capped at 67 pax or so. Anything less than being able to take a full load on YTZ-YHZ is pointless. For those from the Maritimes that want to end up in downtown Toronto, the 1/2 hr stop at YOW is just as good as the trek from YYZ even with the UP Express.

Very true about most DTW demand probably being out in the burbs near YYZ.
 
baje427
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:42 am

Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:21 am

Wouldn't an option also be to fly to JFK and connect passengers to B6?
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6243
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:05 pm

The (almost) monopoly that Porter holds on YTZ has been under scrutiny for quite some time. Certainly since Westjet started operating the Q400 and requested YTZ slots.

In any slots became available, I would be astounded if any went to Porter. AC has stated they would like to opererate YTZ-YOW and WS indicated YTZ-LGA.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
NCAD95
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:11 am

Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:12 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
ghYHZ wrote:
Surprised they haven't started YYG....at least seasonal. Prince Edward Island is a popular summer tourist destination.


Very true and same with YQY (in summer). AC are upping YOW to 2x this summer but don’t fly it year-round. Seems like an expansion opportunity for PD...if they have adequate slack in their fleet or expand it down the road.

Cubsrule wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

I can’t imagine there’s enough O&D to support YTZ-IND. PHL definitely, DTW probably. What else in the US is left? CLE? Again the O&D is probably too small.


There’s likely a fair amount of auto-related demand on DTW-Toronto; the trouble is that the vast majority of that demand is to places that are either more convenient to YYZ (Mississauga, Oakville, Cambridge) or no more convenient to YTZ.

But you may be underestimating the usable range of the DH4 to YTZ. ATL, BNA, CLT, CMH, CVG, RDU, and STL are all probably operationally doable (the commercial case for each is a different matter).


True YTZ’s reach is as far as MLB, but I believe PD weight restrict the route to 55 seats. ATL would probably be capped at 67 pax or so. Anything less than being able to take a full load on YTZ-YHZ is pointless. For those from the Maritimes that want to end up in downtown Toronto, the 1/2 hr stop at YOW is just as good as the trek from YYZ even with the UP Express.

Very true about most DTW demand probably being out in the burbs near YYZ.


There is very little if any automotive traffic between Detroit and Toronto as it has been policy for years now that driving is the favored mode of transportation over such short distance because it saves way more money than flying so with that being said most of the DTW-YYZ traffic is driven by other factors. There is a lot of lesiure traffic between DTW and YYZ as it is a popular weekened get away for Michiganders as well as the sporting events as Detroit teams play. That being said I'd say DTW-YTZ on PD is very viable as it would get those Detroiters who chose to fly closer in to where they want to be.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13773
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: YTZ 44 Slot Increase by 2023 According to 2018 Master Plan Draft

Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:04 pm

longhauler wrote:
The (almost) monopoly that Porter holds on YTZ has been under scrutiny for quite some time. Certainly since Westjet started operating the Q400 and requested YTZ slots.

In any slots became available, I would be astounded if any went to Porter. AC has stated they would like to opererate YTZ-YOW and WS indicated YTZ-LGA.


The case for WS receiving slots makes sense. Between AC’s market share in Toronto writ large and the fact that AC proposes no new routes, AC’s is harder.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more

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