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Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 6:31 am
by 4engines4lnghll
Dfw?

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 7:08 am
by BlueSky1976
jfk777 wrote:
The A350 is designed for ultra long haul flights not 90 minute short hauls. AN A350 is too much plane for Japanese domestic runs.


Wrong and wrong.
JAL ordered A350-900 "Regional" variant, which is optimized for short, more frequent operations. They'll be used as a domestic workhorses, replacing their 777-200s and -300s.
Their A350-1000s will be dedicated to long haul operations and will serve as replacement for 777-200ERs and -300ERs.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
by seabosdca
Dave05 wrote:
Evelop Air a359 is configured for single class 432 passengeres, this must makes the a359 a 10 hour aircraft then.....


Compared to a typical long-haul configuration of ~275 passengers, the 432-passenger configuration would knock off somewhere between 2.5 and 3 hours of range. It's still easily a 13-hour airplane even with all those people crammed in.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 9:47 am
by flipdewaf
Dave05 wrote:
AirwayBill wrote:
Dave05 wrote:
Is 369 total seats the highest count seats in a A359? Just curious....


The recently-delivered Evelop A350-900 can carry up to 432 passengers with ist single-class config (!) (10ab economy)

Air Caraibes' A350-900 is also denser, with 389 seats (3 class, 10ab economy)

French Bee also has quite-high-density A350-900s (411 seats)


Evelop Air a359 is configured for single class 432 passengeres, this must makes the a359 a 10 hour aircraft then.....


According to the payload range chart (eyeballing) it would be about 13.5-14hrs endurance.

usax777 wrote:
This is one of the nicest looking livery of A350!
Agreed, I wasnt keen on the A350 when it first came out (I think the flight global articles with the nose profile did it) but in the flesh it has a tall, leggy, almost 757 esque look to it and looks fantastic.

Fred

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 10:23 am
by masA380
B and his fan won’t be too happy seeing this. Especially when the -1000 goes long-haul in future. All in all, nice looking aircraft and livery.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 2:10 pm
by LaunchDetected
BlueSky1976 wrote:
AL ordered A350-900 "Regional" variant, which is optimized for short, more frequent operations.


Actually, JAL ordered the "Domestic" variant, with increased DSG.

The "Regional" variant entered into service with Singapore Airlines in December.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 2:29 pm
by zakuivcustom
LaunchDetected wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:
AL ordered A350-900 "Regional" variant, which is optimized for short, more frequent operations.


Actually, JAL ordered the "Domestic" variant, with increased DSG.

The "Regional" variant entered into service with Singapore Airlines in December.


Isn't both variants ultimately just a paper derate of "regular" A359? i.e. lower MTOW and lower thrust to "optimized" for the increase cycles?

I don't think either JL or SQ order the actual "A350-900 Regional" anyway (Which was a moniker used by Airbus back in 2013 or so).

https://www.mro-network.com/fleet/inter ... 0-regional

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 2:50 pm
by LaunchDetected
zakuivcustom wrote:
Isn't both variants ultimately just a paper derate of "regular" A359? i.e. lower MTOW and lower thrust to "optimized" for the increase cycles?


Precisely. I can't unfortunately specify the exact differencies of data in both variants, but the objective is to maximize the cycles.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 3:02 pm
by LaunchDetected
zakuivcustom wrote:
I don't think either JL or SQ order the actual "A350-900 Regional" anyway (Which was a moniker used by Airbus back in 2013 or so).


"Regional" and "Domestic" names are used in internal documents, and Singapore Airlines have a different cabin layout for the Regional ones (on the Singapore-Brisbane line IIRC).

https://www.icao.int/SAM/Documents/2018 ... rkshop.pdf (see page 13)


At the end of the following SIA press release we can read:
"SIA placed orders for a total of 67 Airbus A350-900 aircraft, 30 of which are already in the fleet including seven ultra-long-range variants, 21 long-haul variants, and two medium-haul variants".

https://www.singaporeair.com/en_UK/in/m ... 218-181218[/quote]

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 3:37 pm
by xwb565
LaunchDetected wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Isn't both variants ultimately just a paper derate of "regular" A359? i.e. lower MTOW and lower thrust to "optimized" for the increase cycles?


Precisely. I can't unfortunately specify the exact differencies of data in both variants, but the objective is to maximize the cycles.


Is this high cycle rating permanent or can the airframe be restored to a regular long haul configuration down the road?. I assume some complex calculations would need to be made with regards to how the high cycle usage has affected the airframe in order to go back to a regular high mtow? I understand if you cannot reveal certain details.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 3:43 pm
by LaunchDetected
xwb565 wrote:
LaunchDetected wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Isn't both variants ultimately just a paper derate of "regular" A359? i.e. lower MTOW and lower thrust to "optimized" for the increase cycles?


Precisely. I can't unfortunately specify the exact differencies of data in both variants, but the objective is to maximize the cycles.


Is this high cycle rating permanent or can the airframe be restored to a regular long haul configuration down the road?. I assume some complex calculations would need to be made with regards to how the high cycle usage has affected the airframe in order to go back to a regular high mtow? I understand if you cannot reveal certain details.


Unfortunately i'm not qualified enough to answer your question, i don't know enough about certification to provide an insightful answer. But i would say that a cycle is a cycle, if JAL wants to convert their Domestic to "Vanilla" A350-900 they will have to look at the number of cycle, and above all change the cabin layout!

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 4:01 pm
by zakuivcustom
LaunchDetected wrote:
"Regional" and "Domestic" names are used in internal documents, and Singapore Airlines have a different cabin layout for the Regional ones (on the Singapore-Brisbane line IIRC).


I see. It's certainly interesting that Airbus do indeed call JL's A350 "A359 Domestic", though.

On a side note, SIN-KUL and SIN-CGK are not exactly that much shorter than JL's domestic routes anyway (SIN-CGK is almost identical to HND-FUK, while SIN-KUL is shorter than HND-ITM), and SQ is using their "regional" A359 on those two routes (along with ICN and BNE).

xwb565 wrote:
Is this high cycle rating permanent or can the airframe be restored to a regular long haul configuration down the road?. I assume some complex calculations would need to be made with regards to how the high cycle usage has affected the airframe in order to go back to a regular high mtow? I understand if you cannot reveal certain details.


It's definitely not permanent - AFAIK those planes just need recertification (and for JL, cabin reconfiguration). I don't know the details, though (I don't work in the industry afterall...).

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 4:06 pm
by LaunchDetected
zakuivcustom wrote:
On a side note, SIN-KUL and SIN-CGK are not exactly that much shorter than JL's domestic routes anyway (SIN-CGK is almost identical to HND-FUK, while SIN-KUL is shorter than HND-ITM), and SQ is using their "regional" A359 on those two routes (along with ICN and BNE).


I heard somewhere that Singapore Airlines has also ordered the Domestic variant, but i cannot confirm this with any sources.

I created a distinct thread to talk about those variants and to avoid off-topic on this one: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1421673

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 8:11 pm
by moyangmm
masA380 wrote:
B and his fan won’t be too happy seeing this. Especially when the -1000 goes long-haul in future. All in all, nice looking aircraft and livery.


But A350-1000 doesn’t have first class. All current A35J operators use 35J on less premium markets with low-J, no-F configurations, compared with 77W. If JAL doesn’t want to phase out their flagship F product, I guess they will convert some of their 35J to domestic 359 and cancel the rest. They will order some 778/779 instead on their long-haul premium routes.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 9:04 pm
by Stitch
moyangmm wrote:
But A350-1000 doesn’t have first class. All current A35J operators use 35J on less premium markets with low-J, no-F configurations, compared with 77W.


Which is solely due to an airline configuration choice, not an inherent inability of the A350-1000 to support heavy First Class suites.

First Class is being withdrawn from many airlines and for those airlines that still offer it, from many of their airframes, including the 77W.



moyangmm wrote:
If JAL doesn’t want to phase out their flagship F product, I guess they will convert some of their 35J to domestic 359 and cancel the rest. They will order some 778/779 instead on their long-haul premium routes.


It is highly unlikely JAL will order the 777X family - they had the option and chose the A350, instead. So if they want to keep First Class on their longhaul fleet once the 777-300ERs are withdrawn, they will install it on their A350-1000s.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 10:00 pm
by Waterbomber2
moyangmm wrote:
masA380 wrote:
B and his fan won’t be too happy seeing this. Especially when the -1000 goes long-haul in future. All in all, nice looking aircraft and livery.


But A350-1000 doesn’t have first class. All current A35J operators use 35J on less premium markets with low-J, no-F configurations, compared with 77W. If JAL doesn’t want to phase out their flagship F product, I guess they will convert some of their 35J to domestic 359 and cancel the rest. They will order some 778/779 instead on their long-haul premium routes.



Good luck with that my friend.

JL is a premium airline and the B777X is not efficient in JL's desired 9-abreast Y configuration. That and the fact that Boeing took them for granted in the contest against the A350 because of the work share they were giving Japan. Boeing sounded pretty confident before JL awarded it to the A350.
As for the B778, there is no need for it at JL nor NH.

JL will put a F class on the A350-1000 wherever it will replace a B77W.
JL pax also generally hate the B77W, so forget it.

If you want to cheer for Boeing, you can suggest that JL orders additional B787's.
The next contest will be for a fleet of B767's that are up for replacement in the next 10 years. They will need another 20+ copies, and some for Zipair.
Unless they opt for A330neo's that is... If JL likes their A350's, and Airbus offers them delivery slots and a sweeeet deal, no one can predict what they will do.
It makes more sense to order more B787's than A330neo's, but the B787 is notably inflexible for the long haul routes, to the point that they are forced to open a LCC subsidiary to operate 9-abreast B787's.
It's not inconceivable that JL will fold the B787 back into ther domestic network and part of mid haul, bringing a A350/A330neo combo to the mid- and long haul network and fold Zipair back into JL.
This is more or less how they are working with the current B77W/B787/B777/B767 combo.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 10:35 pm
by moyangmm
Waterbomber2 wrote:
If you want to cheer for Boeing, you can suggest that JL orders additional B787's.


I totally agree. B787-10 is also a good option for their long-haul premium fleet. Given how low the density JL uses, B78J has more than enough range.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 12:09 am
by zakuivcustom
Waterbomber2 wrote:
If you want to cheer for Boeing, you can suggest that JL orders additional B787's.
The next contest will be for a fleet of B767's that are up for replacement in the next 10 years. They will need another 20+ copies, and some for Zipair.
Unless they opt for A330neo's that is... If JL likes their A350's, and Airbus offers them delivery slots and a sweeeet deal, no one can predict what they will do.
It makes more sense to order more B787's than A330neo's, but the B787 is notably inflexible for the long haul routes, to the point that they are forced to open a LCC subsidiary to operate 9-abreast B787's.
It's not inconceivable that JL will fold the B787 back into ther domestic network and part of mid haul, bringing a A350/A330neo combo to the mid- and long haul network and fold Zipair back into JL.
This is more or less how they are working with the current B77W/B787/B777/B767 combo.


They're actually getting 4 new 787-8 for domestic use:

https://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/167238 (Sorry...Japanese only)

It's mainly replacing old 763 and 772A, and will be use initially on HND-ITM. And yes, those 787 will be 9-abreast.

A330neo makes zero sense for JL anyway - there's zero advantage operating A339 on both short-haul or long-haul against 787.

Of course, JL will also transfer 2 of the oldest 788 to Zipair, so essentially AFAIK the fleet size is a wash.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 3:55 am
by Waterbomber2
zakuivcustom wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
If you want to cheer for Boeing, you can suggest that JL orders additional B787's.
The next contest will be for a fleet of B767's that are up for replacement in the next 10 years. They will need another 20+ copies, and some for Zipair.
Unless they opt for A330neo's that is... If JL likes their A350's, and Airbus offers them delivery slots and a sweeeet deal, no one can predict what they will do.
It makes more sense to order more B787's than A330neo's, but the B787 is notably inflexible for the long haul routes, to the point that they are forced to open a LCC subsidiary to operate 9-abreast B787's.
It's not inconceivable that JL will fold the B787 back into ther domestic network and part of mid haul, bringing a A350/A330neo combo to the mid- and long haul network and fold Zipair back into JL.
This is more or less how they are working with the current B77W/B787/B777/B767 combo.


They're actually getting 4 new 787-8 for domestic use:

https://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/167238 (Sorry...Japanese only)

It's mainly replacing old 763 and 772A, and will be use initially on HND-ITM. And yes, those 787 will be 9-abreast.

A330neo makes zero sense for JL anyway - there's zero advantage operating A339 on both short-haul or long-haul against 787.

Of course, JL will also transfer 2 of the oldest 788 to Zipair, so essentially AFAIK the fleet size is a wash.


I restate of course that the B787 makes more sense given that they already operate a huge fleet.
But I wouldn't state that the A330neo makes zero sense.
Many B767's will need to be replaced within the next 6 years, while some will be needed for expansion, and Boeing isn't going to give B787's away at bargain pricing with the order books this full.
Airbus will be very eager to place the A330neo's with JAL, have early delivery positions if needed, and the cockpit commonality with the A350 is a selling point, so who knows...?
We also need to look at the economic side. The A339 in 8-abreast is more or less the same size as the B789 if not slightly bigger.
The B788 is too small for long haul missions but JL's B787 fleet is tilted towards the B788.
So there is room for an order for 20+ B789/B787-10's or A339's.

Again, I see the B789 fit better and as a JL frequent flyer I hope that they get those, as well as some B787-10's (not too many as the A359 Regional already fills this role), but the A330neo just can't be ruled out.


Concerning the A359 regional variant, I think that there is more than an engine derate with JL's aircraft.
SQ's A359 regional is just an engine derate and has the same type number, but JL probably got a few more favors out of Airbus to make it moe of a A359D.
Perhaps an even lower MTOW, a lower MZFW in exchange for additional cycles?
The engines could also be slightly different in terms of intake shape, etc...

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 3:09 pm
by zakuivcustom
Sort of bumping this...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411835&start=550#p21361051

And the Wind Plane Rises!

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:16 pm
by janders
The 3 special livery (red, silver, green) frames formally delivered today. First aircraft will depart for Japan on June 13th.


Also here is the seatmap

Image
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D83esEKXsAEEbER.jpg:large

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:29 pm
by x1234
I understand this is regional aircraft but why are the first seats NOT lie-flat!? WOW old 2-2-2 config.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:32 pm
by seabosdca
These are being used for flights of less than 2 hours. There is no reason for lie-flats on such flights.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:39 pm
by speedbird52
Stitch wrote:



moyangmm wrote:
If JAL doesn’t want to phase out their flagship F product, I guess they will convert some of their 35J to domestic 359 and cancel the rest. They will order some 778/779 instead on their long-haul premium routes.


It is highly unlikely JAL will order the 777X family - they had the option and chose the A350, instead. So if they want to keep First Class on their longhaul fleet once the 777-300ERs are withdrawn, they will install it on their A350-1000s.

A lot of airlines ordered the A350 and 779

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:50 pm
by Motorhussy
speedbird52 wrote:
A lot of airlines ordered the A350 and 779


That’s rather a generous assessment of the number of airlines which have ordered the 779, but yes, most airlines which have ordered the 779 also have A350’s.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:56 pm
by Stitch
speedbird52 wrote:
A lot of airlines ordered the A350 and 779


Yes, however I do not expect JAL to be one of them.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:59 pm
by Stitch
x1234 wrote:
I understand this is regional aircraft but why are the first seats NOT lie-flat!? WOW old 2-2-2 config.


As seabosdca noted, the longest stage length these frames will likely be used on will be similar to LAX-ORD or DFW-BOS. The flight time is just not long enough to justify a true lie-flat product and, to be honest, JAL's looks pretty nice.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:03 pm
by jfk777
Waterbomber2 wrote:
moyangmm wrote:
masA380 wrote:
B and his fan won’t be too happy seeing this. Especially when the -1000 goes long-haul in future. All in all, nice looking aircraft and livery.


But A350-1000 doesn’t have first class. All current A35J operators use 35J on less premium markets with low-J, no-F configurations, compared with 77W. If JAL doesn’t want to phase out their flagship F product, I guess they will convert some of their 35J to domestic 359 and cancel the rest. They will order some 778/779 instead on their long-haul premium routes.



Good luck with that my friend.

JL is a premium airline and the B777X is not efficient in JL's desired 9-abreast Y configuration. That and the fact that Boeing took them for granted in the contest against the A350 because of the work share they were giving Japan. Boeing sounded pretty confident before JL awarded it to the A350.
As for the B778, there is no need for it at JL nor NH.

JL will put a F class on the A350-1000 wherever it will replace a B77W.
JL pax also generally hate the B77W, so forget it.

If you want to cheer for Boeing, you can suggest that JL orders additional B787's.
The next contest will be for a fleet of B767's that are up for replacement in the next 10 years. They will need another 20+ copies, and some for Zipair.
Unless they opt for A330neo's that is... If JL likes their A350's, and Airbus offers them delivery slots and a sweeeet deal, no one can predict what they will do.
It makes more sense to order more B787's than A330neo's, but the B787 is notably inflexible for the long haul routes, to the point that they are forced to open a LCC subsidiary to operate 9-abreast B787's.
It's not inconceivable that JL will fold the B787 back into ther domestic network and part of mid haul, bringing a A350/A330neo combo to the mid- and long haul network and fold Zipair back into JL.
This is more or less how they are working with the current B77W/B787/B777/B767 combo.



Why do JAL passengers "hate" their 77W, I have flown them several time and love them. They have to be the least dense 77W out there, only 9 seats in economy. For all the A350 lover pointing out how great that plane is at 9 seats in economy a 777 at 9 seats per row is better. JAL;s 77W have a great First and J Class sections.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:05 pm
by eamondzhang
x1234 wrote:
I understand this is regional aircraft but why are the first seats NOT lie-flat!? WOW old 2-2-2 config.

Why does every airline has to install lie-flat?? NO plane that flies Japan domestic routes on a daily basis install lie-flat, unless it's between international rotations operated by an international-configured plane. It is a seat-jamming exercise in the first place, and I bet with 1c that you're probably one of the few that is asking for a lie-flat on some sectors that could be as short as 40min.

Michael

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:51 pm
by speedbird52
Motorhussy wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
A lot of airlines ordered the A350 and 779


That’s rather a generous assessment of the number of airlines which have ordered the 779, but yes, most airlines which have ordered the 779 also have A350’s.

British Airways, Lufthansa, Singapore, Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, ANA, and Cathay, for a total of 344. Considering most of these airlines still have nearly brand new fleets of 77Ws those numbers seem pretty good to me.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:11 am
by jfk777
speedbird52 wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
A lot of airlines ordered the A350 and 779


That’s rather a generous assessment of the number of airlines which have ordered the 779, but yes, most airlines which have ordered the 779 also have A350’s.

British Airways, Lufthansa, Singapore, Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, ANA, and Cathay, for a total of 344. Considering most of these airlines still have nearly brand new fleets of 77Ws those numbers seem pretty good to me.


Ths group has contains long time flyers of the 77W, some random planes may be "new" most have been around the better part of 10 years or close to it. The 779 in BA's and Lufthansa case are replacing 744's not 777 ( of any type). The ME3 have so many 77W some are very new and some are old. In the Cathay and Singapore case their 77W have been around a while and are getting replaced by 777-9 and A350.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:46 am
by speedbird52
jfk777 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:

That’s rather a generous assessment of the number of airlines which have ordered the 779, but yes, most airlines which have ordered the 779 also have A350’s.

British Airways, Lufthansa, Singapore, Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, ANA, and Cathay, for a total of 344. Considering most of these airlines still have nearly brand new fleets of 77Ws those numbers seem pretty good to me.


Ths group has contains long time flyers of the 77W, some random planes may be "new" most have been around the better part of 10 years or close to it. The 779 in BA's and Lufthansa case are replacing 744's not 777 ( of any type). The ME3 have so many 77W some are very new and some are old. In the Cathay and Singapore case their 77W have been around a while and are getting replaced by 777-9 and A350.

Yup. When the time comes and if we don't have a major economic crash I see at least 3/4 of the 77W being replaced by 779

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:32 am
by Waterbomber2
jfk777 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
moyangmm wrote:

But A350-1000 doesn’t have first class. All current A35J operators use 35J on less premium markets with low-J, no-F configurations, compared with 77W. If JAL doesn’t want to phase out their flagship F product, I guess they will convert some of their 35J to domestic 359 and cancel the rest. They will order some 778/779 instead on their long-haul premium routes.



Good luck with that my friend.

JL is a premium airline and the B777X is not efficient in JL's desired 9-abreast Y configuration. That and the fact that Boeing took them for granted in the contest against the A350 because of the work share they were giving Japan. Boeing sounded pretty confident before JL awarded it to the A350.
As for the B778, there is no need for it at JL nor NH.

JL will put a F class on the A350-1000 wherever it will replace a B77W.
JL pax also generally hate the B77W, so forget it.

If you want to cheer for Boeing, you can suggest that JL orders additional B787's.
The next contest will be for a fleet of B767's that are up for replacement in the next 10 years. They will need another 20+ copies, and some for Zipair.
Unless they opt for A330neo's that is... If JL likes their A350's, and Airbus offers them delivery slots and a sweeeet deal, no one can predict what they will do.
It makes more sense to order more B787's than A330neo's, but the B787 is notably inflexible for the long haul routes, to the point that they are forced to open a LCC subsidiary to operate 9-abreast B787's.
It's not inconceivable that JL will fold the B787 back into ther domestic network and part of mid haul, bringing a A350/A330neo combo to the mid- and long haul network and fold Zipair back into JL.
This is more or less how they are working with the current B77W/B787/B777/B767 combo.



Why do JAL passengers "hate" their 77W, I have flown them several time and love them. They have to be the least dense 77W out there, only 9 seats in economy. For all the A350 lover pointing out how great that plane is at 9 seats in economy a 777 at 9 seats per row is better. JAL;s 77W have a great First and J Class sections.


I've been on one of their B77W's just a few days ago and I hated it.
Seat pitch and width is great, but it's the noise that is unbearable. Especially when they try to climb higher during cruise, it's like everything is breaking loose.
I'd take one of their B788's over their B77W any day.
By the way I noticed that their B789's are a lot noisier than their B788's, probably due to higher weights and engines working harder as a result.
Overall though, even on the B789, the cabin environment is in a different league than their B77W's.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:33 am
by StuckInCA
Pudelhund wrote:
Is there really not a more optimal plane to put on this short of a route, like a 787-10 or A330-900? Seems like dropping a shark in a fish bowl.


Is your disapproval based on the distance or the capacity?

It seems very normal to start a new type on a short route and this is a high capacity route.

If I disregard smaller types and choose a random day next month, ANA (as an example) has during that one day FUK-HND:

1x 767 (270 seats)
3x 787 (395 or 335 seats depending which type)
8x 772 (405 seats)
1x 773 (514 seats)

JAL also has some big AC on this route and relatively often I can't find a seat on any airline between FUK and TYO when searching at the last minute. I've been on 773's on that route several times where it's VERY full or completely full.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:36 am
by hoons90
StuckInCA wrote:
Pudelhund wrote:
Is there really not a more optimal plane to put on this short of a route, like a 787-10 or A330-900? Seems like dropping a shark in a fish bowl.


JAL also has some big AC on this route and relatively often I can't find a seat on any airline between FUK and TYO when searching at the last minute. I've been on 773's on that route several times where it's VERY full or completely full.


I concur. I flew several domestic flights with JAL back in April (HND-FUK, ITM v.v.), and they have screens throughout the airport to indicate seat availability (either a circle, triangle or X depending on how full the flight is in each cabin). Saw mostly X's with a few triangles here and there.
Tried to upgrade to First Class or Class J on every flight, but absolutely no luck whatsoever. It's a good thing that 10-abreast on the JAL 777 was surprisingly bearable.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:05 am
by hongkongflyer
seabosdca wrote:
Dave05 wrote:
Evelop Air a359 is configured for single class 432 passengeres, this must makes the a359 a 10 hour aircraft then.....


Compared to a typical long-haul configuration of ~275 passengers, the 432-passenger configuration would knock off somewhere between 2.5 and 3 hours of range. It's still easily a 13-hour airplane even with all those people crammed in.


They used 747 and 777 as a domestic plane before

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:22 am
by Motorhussy
speedbird52 wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
A lot of airlines ordered the A350 and 779


That’s rather a generous assessment of the number of airlines which have ordered the 779, but yes, most airlines which have ordered the 779 also have A350’s.

British Airways, Lufthansa, Singapore, Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, ANA, and Cathay, for a total of 344. Considering most of these airlines still have nearly brand new fleets of 77Ws those numbers seem pretty good to me.


Eight airlines. As I said, a generous assessment. I didn’t say it wasn’t going to get better so calm your jets.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:54 am
by IndianicWorld
Just watched the Airbus-JAL A350 handover ceremony on YouTube and can only hope it goes well for them.

Even though the standard A350 is optimised for longer range routes, it appears that this model that JAL have is a 217T (if I heard it right) version based on the speaker from Airbus stated.

Best of luck to Airbus and Japan Airlines on what I hope is a relationship that brings further orders.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:01 pm
by flee
IndianicWorld wrote:
Just watched the Airbus-JAL A350 handover ceremony on YouTube and can only hope it goes well for them.

Even though the standard A350 is optimised for longer range routes, it appears that this model that JAL have is a 217T version based on the speaker from Airbus stated. No idea how it works but it will still be flying non-stop to Tokyo from France on this occasion :)

Much lower MTOW because these first few frames are replacing domestic B777-200s. The configuration is high density for JAL. I think JAL will probably only use the A350-1000s for long haul.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:08 pm
by IndianicWorld
flee wrote:
IndianicWorld wrote:
Just watched the Airbus-JAL A350 handover ceremony on YouTube and can only hope it goes well for them.

Even though the standard A350 is optimised for longer range routes, it appears that this model that JAL have is a 217T version based on the speaker from Airbus stated. No idea how it works but it will still be flying non-stop to Tokyo from France on this occasion :)

Much lower MTOW because these first few frames are replacing domestic B777-200s. The configuration is high density for JAL. I think JAL will probably only use the A350-1000s for long haul.


Yep, but 217T seemed like a significant difference. Was interesting to hear.

Happy to see the A350 finally at JAL, 6 years after ordering.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:59 pm
by zeke
IndianicWorld wrote:

Yep, but 217T seemed like a significant difference. Was interesting to hear.

Happy to see the A350 finally at JAL, 6 years after ordering.


Think they also have XWB-75 engines, XWB-84 derated to 75 klb

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:20 pm
by mercure1

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:37 pm
by Stitch
IndianicWorld wrote:
Yep, but 217T seemed like a significant difference. Was interesting to hear.


This is one of two newer Weight Variants (WV018), though not the lowest, which is WV017 with an MTOW of 210,000kg.


As an aside, has anyone heard anything about these frames being formally identified as A350-942 instead of the current A350-941?

The EASA TCDS looks to still be from May 2019 and only notes the model A350-941, however Airbus noted that on 11 April of this year the Japanese Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transportation, and Tourism issued their own Type Certificate for the A350 family. Would they give it a different model number or would they adopt the same as other certification agencies have?

JAL takes delivery of its 1st Airbus (A350)

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:20 pm
by Vladex

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:24 pm
by mercure1
Interesting such a capable aircraft assigned first to domestic network.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:12 pm
by Stitch
mercure1 wrote:
Interesting such a capable aircraft assigned first to domestic network.


They've been doing it for decades with the 747, 767, 777 and 787.

There has not really been a true "short-haul-optimized widebody" since the original A300.

Re: JAL announces first A350 route

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:15 pm
by juliuswong
I can't believe I can live to witness this day.. A brand new Airbus for JAL. Kudos for both JAL and Airbus on the delivery.

Re: JAL takes delivery of its 1st Airbus (A350)

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:01 am
by filipinoavgeek
Not its first Airbus, it used to operate A300s for several years after its merger with JAS. Thread title should probably be edited to remove the parentheses.

Re: JAL takes delivery of its 1st Airbus (A350)

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:44 am
by LaunchDetected
filipinoavgeek wrote:
Not its first Airbus, it used to operate A300s for several years after its merger with JAS. Thread title should probably be edited to remove the parentheses.


Technically JAL never took delivery of Airbus aircraft. No need to be this picky.

Re: JAL takes delivery of its 1st Airbus (A350)

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:47 am
by filipinoavgeek
LaunchDetected wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
Not its first Airbus, it used to operate A300s for several years after its merger with JAS. Thread title should probably be edited to remove the parentheses.


Technically JAL never took delivery of Airbus aircraft. No need to be this picky.


True, but the wording in the title could still cause confusion, and others would point out the A300 as well.