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impilot
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: Will Boeing Brasil let the E175-E2 just fall off the table?

Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:40 am

Amiga500 wrote:
The big problem the airframers have with scope is - you are placing a multi-billion dollar program on the premise that a pen-stroke does not happen.

If the pilots unions decided in 2022 to allow the E175-E2 to be within scope, MITAC will have sunk how many billion into a pit? One (well, 3) pen-strokes and the entire market premise is gone.

Scope is an artificial restraint outside of market and is entirely free of inertia. Its a dangerous game for airframers betting on scope changing/not changing.

Scope isn’t an artificial restraint. Any US3 airline can fly an E175-E2 tomorrow so long as it doesn’t say “express” or “connection” or “Eagle” on it. All scope does is prevent outsourcing and forces airlines to actually fly their own flights on their own metal instead of the lowest bidder. The manufacturers need to complain to the greedy airline CEOs and convince them to stop outsourcing...that has as good a chance of succeeding as trying to relax scope.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Will Boeing Brasil let the E175-E2 just fall off the table?

Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:43 am

impilot wrote:
Scope isn’t an artificial restraint.


In what world is it not artificial?!?!


If scope were removed, how many airlines would continue to fly current 76 seat RJs?


It is not a limit caused by aerodynamics, metallurgy or passenger demand. It is entirely an artificial (paper) constraint on aircraft design and operation.
 
impilot
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: Will Boeing Brasil let the E175-E2 just fall off the table?

Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:51 am

Amiga500 wrote:
impilot wrote:
Scope isn’t an artificial restraint.


In what world is it not artificial?!?!


If scope were removed, how many airlines would continue to fly current 76 seat RJs?


It is not a limit caused by aerodynamics, metallurgy or passenger demand. It is entirely an artificial (paper) constraint on aircraft design and operation.


The “constraint” is corporate greed and fascination with outsourcing. All 40,000 pilots at the US3 would welcome a E175-E2 to their fleet. Nothing, including scope, is stopping the US3 from placing orders for E2s of any size. Except for the fact that they don’t like the economics of having them at mainline. So, scope isn’t restraining anything other than outsourcing jobs.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Will Boeing Brasil let the E175-E2 just fall off the table?

Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:55 am

impilot wrote:
The “constraint” is corporate greed and fascination with outsourcing.


What ever way you want to view it - either the unions being intransigent or the airlines being a shower of slave-driving _____ - it is artificial.

It could literally change overnight if either side were to change their opinion.

That is not a good thing for an airframer that must make a multi-billion dollar bet ~10 years before entry to market and total program life of ~40 years.
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 906
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: Will Boeing Brasil let the E175-E2 just fall off the table?

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:48 am

impilot wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
impilot wrote:
Scope isn’t an artificial restraint.


In what world is it not artificial?!?!


If scope were removed, how many airlines would continue to fly current 76 seat RJs?


It is not a limit caused by aerodynamics, metallurgy or passenger demand. It is entirely an artificial (paper) constraint on aircraft design and operation.


The “constraint” is corporate greed and fascination with outsourcing. All 40,000 pilots at the US3 would welcome a E175-E2 to their fleet. Nothing, including scope, is stopping the US3 from placing orders for E2s of any size. Except for the fact that they don’t like the economics of having them at mainline. So, scope isn’t restraining anything other than outsourcing jobs.


I am pretty sure the E175 E2 exceeds the range capabilities of the early Hawker Trident and Boeing 727. There is nothing really regional about the Ejets except for the compensation level of those working aboard these fine Brazilian aircraft.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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TWA772LR
Posts: 7347
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Will Boeing Brasil let the E175-E2 just fall off the table?

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:13 am

The thing is the 175E2 is IMO ahead of its time. All those E1s will need to be replaced eventually but technology is dictating that the next generation of that market segment be heavier than the previous generation. The airlines and the unions will understand this but as long as E1s are still being produced, the airlines have no choice but to not revisit the scope issue and the unions know that. Maybe with Boeing in the picture things could change, but it will be a few years.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20569
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Will Boeing Brasil let the E175-E2 just fall off the table?

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:29 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
My question is to anyone. Can an E170 E2 be made that is less than 86,000 pounds ?

Yes, the same way the MRJ/SpaceJet is being made compliant:
1. Shrink the body to reduce weight.
2. A small reduction in wingspan, optimized for a lower MTOW
3. A substantial reduction in fuel tank capacity. Even empty, fuel tanks are heavy.

This reduces the range to regional capacity and reduces the quantity of premium seats for 76 seats.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
Blockplus
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:55 pm

Re: Will Boeing Brasil let the E175-E2 just fall off the table?

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:44 pm

Is 175 skin being etched like the 145 was to reduce weight? How about al-li skins?
 
dstblj52
Posts: 523
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Will Boeing Brasil let the E175-E2 just fall off the table?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:58 am

TWA772LR wrote:
The thing is the 175E2 is IMO ahead of its time. All those E1s will need to be replaced eventually but technology is dictating that the next generation of that market segment be heavier than the previous generation. The airlines and the unions will understand this but as long as E1s are still being produced, the airlines have no choice but to not revisit the scope issue and the unions know that. Maybe with Boeing in the picture things could change, but it will be a few years.

all three mainline unions have the same stance on this issue, Not one more pound, not one more seat, not one more plane. They have more leverage now then they have had in decades and they intend to use it.

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