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FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:19 pm

New article from FG at https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ar-458314/ compares A350 vs 787.

It seems a bit reluctant to reach any conclusions, but it does provide some interesting graphs normalized by first year of delivery/orderability.

First, deliveries:

Image

Second: orders:

Image

I also am reluctant to draw any conclusions, but I think I see a pattern.

The article goes on to compare how the two products are doing based on geographical region.

All in all, a very informative article.
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:30 pm

Airbus and Boeing know what they are doing, the frames are slotted in-between each other.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:35 pm

wow

orders really flattened out when the 350 started getting delivered whereas the 787 took off after its

something definitely fishy going on...wiki says 350 has -1 orders this year.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:47 pm

airzona11 wrote:
Airbus and Boeing know what they are doing, the frames are slotted in-between each other.

I wouldn't say it's an exact science.

The original A350 Mk1 was the same size as A330 and thus 787, but after it lost competitions to 787 at AC and QF, Airbus decided it had to make it Xtra Wide and a clean sheet.

Boeing famously started out to build a Sonic Cruiser but ended up with a hi-tech hi-range A330 with growth in it for 787-10 too.

Airbus has captured the 772 sweet spot but might be vulnerable to 787-10 from below, and having just one engine vendor also seems to be a disadvantage.
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:55 pm

The deliveries chart looks odd at the year 9 for the 787. The line rate increased to 14 recently, which should be an uptick in deliveries, but the chart went flat.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:04 pm

A350 only had 1 delivery in 2014 and it took its time after that
A lot of airlines that are under Boeing spell from a long past ordered 787. JAL had to apologize for ordering A350, so 787 is definitely more ordered and produced but the victory is temporary and pyrhic.I believe A350 has a larger ground clearance so it will have much more engine potential along with being larger or right sized.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:12 pm

Vladex wrote:
A350 only had 1 delivery in 2014 and it took its time after that
A lot of airlines that are under Boeing spell from a long past ordered 787. JAL had to apologize for ordering A350, so 787 is definitely more ordered and produced but the victory is temporary and pyrhic.I believe A350 has a larger ground clearance so it will have much more engine potential along with being larger or right sized.

I think the A350 is already excellent and I think it will be the first commercial airliner to get the RR UltraFan which should make it even better, yet I also think airlines really do like having two different engine vendors competing for their business so 787 has an important commercial advantage that A350 lacks.
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:14 pm

a350 is one of the best rides in the sky, but man look at the acceleration in 787 orders compared to it over the last few years. Wow.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:15 pm

Vladex wrote:
A350 only had 1 delivery in 2014 and it took its time after that
A lot of airlines that are under Boeing spell from a long past ordered 787. JAL had to apologize for ordering A350, so 787 is definitely more ordered and produced but the victory is temporary and pyrhic.I believe A350 has a larger ground clearance so it will have much more engine potential along with being larger or right sized.



Decisions to purchase, like in JAL's case, are based on economics, not some "spell" as you say. And this is the case now more than ever.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:18 pm

economic circumstances are very different. Such analysis needs many other factors to be applied.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:29 pm

Vladex wrote:
A350 only had 1 delivery in 2014 and it took its time after that
A lot of airlines that are under Boeing spell from a long past ordered 787. JAL had to apologize for ordering A350, so 787 is definitely more ordered and produced but the victory is temporary and pyrhic.I believe A350 has a larger ground clearance so it will have much more engine potential along with being larger or right sized.


ayo- hol' up. so boeing is using magic spells to sell aircraft? well at least they don't have to bribe people lol

but in all seriousness, chalking the sales disparity up to a "spell" is kind of...hilarious?

what these graphs show is that either the 787 is htat much better, the 350 isn't that good, or else the 350 is too expensive for what it offers in performance vs its main alternative. 350 was on fire before it came out. if you had a car and a ton of preorders then it hit the streets and the ongoing orders dried totally up you'd say Houston we have a problem.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:33 pm

Revelation wrote:
yet I also think airlines really do like having two different engine vendors competing for their business so 787 has an important commercial advantage that A350 lacks.


Can you cite a single example of a sales campaign lost on the basis of a lack of engine choice?

The disadvantage from which you claim the A350 suffers doesn’t seem to have affected sales of other exclusively engines frames such as 737NG, 737MAX, 777L/W/X. Strange.
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:46 pm

scbriml wrote:
Revelation wrote:
yet I also think airlines really do like having two different engine vendors competing for their business so 787 has an important commercial advantage that A350 lacks.

Can you cite a single example of a sales campaign lost on the basis of a lack of engine choice?

No, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have an impact.

We don't know which customers avoid A350 totally due to the lack of engine competition.

We know AF has held off buying A350 for years till it could get permission to service the RR engine itself.

We read in our current KE thread that KE is staying away from A350 for the same reason

We don't know which customers enter or stay in the 787 market at least in part because engine competition delivers better prices and/or terms and drives frequent PIPs.

scbriml wrote:
The disadvantage from which you claim the A350 suffers doesn’t seem to have affected sales of other exclusively engines frames such as 737NG, 737MAX, 777L/W/X. Strange.

We don't know how better they'd be doing with competitive engine offerings.

We do know A320ceo and A320neo have two engine offerings and are the leader in orders for their market segment.

We do know in pretty much every situation customers ask vendors for engine choices.

We read such requests are happening in very recent times for NMA.
Last edited by Revelation on Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:46 pm

I have to admit I thought it said “farting” need to get glasses hahaha, have a good day everyone
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:49 pm

socko wrote:
I have to admit I thought it said “farting” need to get glasses hahaha, have a good day everyone

If this was an article about Tesla you might have been correct! :biggrin:
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:51 pm

it's probably because the 787 is the smaller plane. the trend has been clear towards the smallest plane that can efficiently complete the route. being bigger has its challenges
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:10 pm

With Airbus always bragging that they sold more A330s then Boeing sold more 787 after the Dreamliner was launched it's pretty obvious were the sweet spot is in the market has been the last decade if you look at the size of wide-body planes.

The slightly larger A350 is placed in a different spot in the market, making it a little bit more difficult to sell. Which doesn't mean that smaller is better, the A333 sold much better then the A332, same for the 789 compared to the 788.

And I say a little bit more difficult to sell because the A350 has sold better since it's launch than any other wide-body plane ever apart from the 787. So nobody has to make apologies for it's somewhat slower sales, the A350 is very successful. And they didn't burn as much money as Boeing did on the execution of the early production rate increases.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:28 pm

I wouldn't mind knowing how the normalised hours per fleet are going. The A350 is enjoying over 99% reliability with all apart form a single EY A350 that has been delivered in service. There have been, and continues to be large numbers of 787s on the ground waiting for fixes.
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:30 pm

Nice infographics! Hopefully we can see more A350 orders in the upcoming air shows.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:37 pm

musman9853 wrote:
it's probably because the 787 is the smaller plane. the trend has been clear towards the smallest plane that can efficiently complete the route. being bigger has its challenges

Yes, I was thinking the same thing when I wrote my comment about 787-10 potentially undermining A359.
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:40 pm

zeke wrote:
I wouldn't mind knowing how the normalised hours per fleet are going. The A350 is enjoying over 99% reliability with all apart form a single EY A350 that has been delivered in service. There have been, and continues to be large numbers of 787s on the ground waiting for fixes.

Apart from the initial battery cluster-f, AFAIK the "large numbers of 787s on the ground waiting for fixes" are primarily due to RR engines and unrelated to the airframe itself. Kindly correct me if there are other issues I am unaware of.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:42 pm

Interesting that every time the lack of engine choice was brought up in all the numerous 737-A320 threads, it was shot down because it doesn't matter much, but suddenly it's "oh we don't know, it could be better with two". Some consistency would be nice, to at least mask an agenda.
Last edited by crimsonchin on Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:45 pm

Revelation wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
it's probably because the 787 is the smaller plane. the trend has been clear towards the smallest plane that can efficiently complete the route. being bigger has its challenges

Yes, I was thinking the same thing when I wrote my comment about 787-10 potentially undermining A359.

All of which should be in the A350's favor when compared to the B77X, right? That vaunted 25 tons should severely limit the B77X's prospects.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:53 pm

crimsonchin wrote:
Interesting that every time the lack of engine choice was brought up in all the numerous 737-A320 threads, it was shot down because it doesn't matter much, but suddenly it's "oh we don't know, it could be better with two". Some consistency would be nice, to at least mask an agenda.

Sure, you could complain about that, or you could add something of value to this thread instead.

So, how do you think the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies are faring?
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:55 pm

Revelation wrote:
We don't know which customers avoid A350 totally due to the lack of engine competition.


In all the sales campaigns where any frame with an engine choice has won, has the customer ever said having that choice clinched the deal for them?

Revelation wrote:
We don't know how better they'd be doing with competitive engine offerings.


Given the increasing number of frames which don't have an engine choice, neither OEM seems particularly bothered about it.

Revelation wrote:
We do know A320ceo and A320neo have two engine offerings and are the leader in orders for their market segment.


Ha, can I quote you on that the next time there's a fight over which sells better, the A320 or 737? :wink2:

Revelation wrote:
We do know in pretty much every situation customers ask vendors for engine choices.

We read such requests are happening in very recent times for NMA.


Of course the airlines would always prefer a choice, but that hasn't stopped them spending billions on buying those frames without a choice in their thousands. My point is simply that a lack of engine choice doesn't seem to hinder sales to any significant degree. There seems to be very little (no) evidence to the contrary.
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:01 pm

Bricktop wrote:
zeke wrote:
I wouldn't mind knowing how the normalised hours per fleet are going. The A350 is enjoying over 99% reliability with all apart form a single EY A350 that has been delivered in service. There have been, and continues to be large numbers of 787s on the ground waiting for fixes.

Apart from the initial battery cluster-f, AFAIK the "large numbers of 787s on the ground waiting for fixes" are primarily due to RR engines and unrelated to the airframe itself. Kindly correct me if there are other issues I am unaware of.


I also would like to know the other fixes these 787 are getting that isn't related to RR. Perhaps CX pilots are aware of something the rest of us don't know.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:03 pm

Revelation wrote:
crimsonchin wrote:
Interesting that every time the lack of engine choice was brought up in all the numerous 737-A320 threads, it was shot down because it doesn't matter much, but suddenly it's "oh we don't know, it could be better with two". Some consistency would be nice, to at least mask an agenda.

Sure, you could complain about that, or you could add something of value to this thread instead.


I could, but why wouldn't I want to point out a sudden and very convenient change in the merits of sole engine choice vs dual, seeing as apparently we love dual engine choices again and they now matter. I hope to be in the next 777X thread where I'm sure we'll be back to loving single engine suppliers again

So, how do you think the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies are faring?


The 787 seems to be doing better since delivery, while the A350 has somewhat "stagnated". Is this due to the 777 replacement cycle not hitting full stride, or the poor A350 and having only RR? One has to wonder.
Last edited by crimsonchin on Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:03 pm

crimsonchin wrote:
Interesting that every time the lack of engine choice was brought up in all the numerous 737-A320 threads, it was shot down because it doesn't matter much, but suddenly it's "oh we don't know, it could be better with two". Some consistency would be nice, to at least mask an agenda.

Hopefully those critics who constantly slammed the exclusivity including on the 777W are now being consistent and doing the same for the A350, at least we would know it was based on principle versus A versus B...
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:13 pm

What is most important is profitability. These graphs do nothing to help with this situation.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:28 pm

Ideally we would not rat hole on engine selection, but it seems to strike a nerve.

crimsonchin wrote:
Revelation wrote:
crimsonchin wrote:
Interesting that every time the lack of engine choice was brought up in all the numerous 737-A320 threads, it was shot down because it doesn't matter much, but suddenly it's "oh we don't know, it could be better with two". Some consistency would be nice, to at least mask an agenda.

Sure, you could complain about that, or you could add something of value to this thread instead.

I could, but why wouldn't I want to point out a sudden and very convenient change in the merits of sole engine choice vs dual, seeing as apparently we love dual engine choices again and they now matter. I hope to be in the next 777X thread where I'm sure we'll be back to loving single engine suppliers again

Not sure what there is to love about it, but it's pretty clear that the 777x market space won't be very high volume whereas one would hope A350 could reach the volume where having a 2nd vendor would be supportable. For the record I did criticize GE at the time for buying its way to an exclusive on 77W.

crimsonchin wrote:
[
So, how do you think the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies are faring?


The 787 seems to be doing better since delivery, while the A350 has somewhat "stagnated". Is this due to the 777 replacement cycle not hitting full stride, or the poor A350 and having only RR? One has to wonder.

I'd venture the 772/E replacement cycle is in full swing yet we see a small suggestion of stagnation.
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:44 pm

In the A330 / A350 / B787 competitions there may be engine preference occurring. Per 2018 data the 787 is 53% GE, 33% RR, and 14% undecided. The A330 and A350 are both RR 100%. So the airlines that prefer GE trend toward 787 and those that prefer going RR are favoring the A330/350 but are still buying 787's too.

I fear the WB market is over ordered, so the number of new orders will be slow for a few years. To a lesser extent in the NB space also.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:46 pm

Infrequent poster and certainly no expert but I thought Airbus was offering both the A330 Neo and the A350 as competitive options against the 787 series of aircraft? As such isn't comparing A350 sales to 787 sales removing a major part of the equation for aircraft sales in this sector of the market?
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:02 pm

Bricktop wrote:
Apart from the initial battery cluster-f, AFAIK the "large numbers of 787s on the ground waiting for fixes" are primarily due to RR engines and unrelated to the airframe itself. Kindly correct me if there are other issues I am unaware of.


Pretty significant issue that stops the aircraft from earning. I seem to see the same TG at BKK for a long time now.

Sure there have been other problems like the ELT fire.

My question was how much downtime have 787s had since being delivered.
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:42 pm

zeke wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Apart from the initial battery cluster-f, AFAIK the "large numbers of 787s on the ground waiting for fixes" are primarily due to RR engines and unrelated to the airframe itself. Kindly correct me if there are other issues I am unaware of.


Pretty significant issue that stops the aircraft from earning. I seem to see the same TG at BKK for a long time now.

Sure there have been other problems like the ELT fire.

My question was how much downtime have 787s had since being delivered.

Remember that the 787 has been in service longer and the A350 could face a similar engine issue down the road. Considering the A350 is RR only and the 787 RR is the version hampered by RR inability to supply fixes quickly, the A350 is at greater risk in the future.
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:42 pm

zeke wrote:
I wouldn't mind knowing how the normalised hours per fleet are going. The A350 is enjoying over 99% reliability with all apart form a single EY A350 that has been delivered in service. There have been, and continues to be large numbers of 787s on the ground waiting for fixes.


that's pretty much entirely RR's fault though. seems kinda disingenuous to blame the frame, which other than some earlier kinks, has proven to be reliable and successful
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:43 pm

YellowJ wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
zeke wrote:
I wouldn't mind knowing how the normalised hours per fleet are going. The A350 is enjoying over 99% reliability with all apart form a single EY A350 that has been delivered in service. There have been, and continues to be large numbers of 787s on the ground waiting for fixes.

Apart from the initial battery cluster-f, AFAIK the "large numbers of 787s on the ground waiting for fixes" are primarily due to RR engines and unrelated to the airframe itself. Kindly correct me if there are other issues I am unaware of.


I also would like to know the other fixes these 787 are getting that isn't related to RR. Perhaps CX pilots are aware of something the rest of us don't know.


CX doesnt have 787s though
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:14 am

musman9853 wrote:
zeke wrote:
I wouldn't mind knowing how the normalised hours per fleet are going. The A350 is enjoying over 99% reliability with all apart form a single EY A350 that has been delivered in service. There have been, and continues to be large numbers of 787s on the ground waiting for fixes.


that's pretty much entirely RR's fault though. seems kinda disingenuous to blame the frame, which other than some earlier kinks, has proven to be reliable and successful


RR's fault yes, for signing up for an overly aggressive Boeing timescale and then missing performance marks, patching up with insufficiently tested packages. At this point the T1000 is a Frankenstein.
Give them enough time and I'm sure they can come up with something as exemplary as the TXWB. That doesn't come in a billion different versions as the T1000 or undergo multiple upgrades to become the version we have today. Owing to this history, RR pulled out of the 2025 NMA for good reasons.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:31 am

musman9853 wrote:
CX doesnt have 787s though

Yet. ;) :duck:
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:47 am

I've heard rumors from vendors that RR didn't leave enough early delivery slots available for new orders. That Airbus must produce through the current block.

The 787 delivery delays are quite impressive. Instead the slope dropped.

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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:20 am

Revelation wrote:
We know AF has held off buying A350 for years till it could get permission to service the RR engine itself.

We read in our current KE thread that KE is staying away from A350 for the same reason

Certain airlines only buy if they can feed their engine service division. AF, KE, SQ, and DL.

Is LH servicing theirs? Normally they insist on servicing engines, but I do not know on the A350.

RR is very dependent on engine service revenue. Due to the difficulty recovering R&D costs, fewer service centers are allowed. They also require incredibly expensive equipment today, e.g. the machines to friction weld on compressor blades. This requires servicing more engines per year to pay for the machines.

I keep harping on economics of scale. Because there is more specialized tooling, servicing more engines is required to be economical. Unfortunately, this must lead to consolidation of engine service work.

On one hand this favors RR due to the sole source contract. But this is diluted by contracts with DL, SQ, and AF allowing Txwb work by them. RR cannot allow to many engine overhaul shops (nor GE) or the OEM shops won't have enough business.

Nothing new. This has been going on for decades. This is just another round of consolidation.

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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:57 am

zeke wrote:
I wouldn't mind knowing how the normalised hours per fleet are going. The A350 is enjoying over 99% reliability with all apart form a single EY A350 that has been delivered in service. There have been, and continues to be large numbers of 787s on the ground waiting for fixes.

Thanks to RR.
Good thing Boeing also offers a GE engine on the 787.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:15 am

lightsaber wrote:
Revelation wrote:
We know AF has held off buying A350 for years till it could get permission to service the RR engine itself.

We read in our current KE thread that KE is staying away from A350 for the same reason

Certain airlines only buy if they can feed their engine service division. AF, KE, SQ, and DL.

Is LH servicing theirs? Normally they insist on servicing engines, but I do not know on the A350.

Lightsaber


https://www.mro-network.com/maintenance ... xwb-repair

"N3 Engine Overhaul Services (N3), the Rolls-Royce and Lufthansa Technik joint venture, has been granted Part-145 authorization by German regulator The Federal Aviation Office (LBA) to become a repair center for the Trent XWB engine powering the A350 aircraft."

So I think, yes.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:08 am

The a350 has met or exceeded all performance guarantees from day one. It has in the last couple of quarters become the most reliable widebody overtaking even the 777. However the smaller widebody will always sell better in a dip. Hence it is no surprise the 787 has sold well.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:48 am

9Patch wrote:
zeke wrote:
I wouldn't mind knowing how the normalised hours per fleet are going. The A350 is enjoying over 99% reliability with all apart form a single EY A350 that has been delivered in service. There have been, and continues to be large numbers of 787s on the ground waiting for fixes.

Thanks to RR.
Good thing Boeing also offers a GE engine on the 787.

The GE engine isn't problem free either - there have been a few IFS as well.

In any case, it is quite pointless to compare aircraft sales as a measure of success. These aircraft programmes will go on for a few decades and whether it is a success or not is still unknown. In the long run, both will have their own customers and we shall have to wait and see what the end result will be.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:25 am

musman9853 wrote:
that's pretty much entirely RR's fault though. seems kinda disingenuous to blame the frame, which other than some earlier kinks, has proven to be reliable and successful


Not sure that is entirely fair.

RR has said one of the reasons why the Trent XWB is not having the same issues as the Trent 1000 is due to unique geometry within the Trent 1000 engine. I understood that was due to the design requirements to produce around 4times higher generator loads, this impacts margins within the engine so they moved the accessory drive from the HP to IP spool.

It speaks volumes in my view that neither the 737Max or 777-X went “bleed less”.
Last edited by zeke on Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Geoff1947
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:32 am

Very misleading graphs to support a particular view.

The 787 built up a huge orderbook of 887 by 2011 before it entered service. Only one year, 2013, since then has Boeing sold more than it delivered.

I find facts inform a discussion !

The 787 is a huge success on the basis of its delivery rate but there is so much hype and exaggeration surrounding it.

Geoff
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:53 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
The deliveries chart looks odd at the year 9 for the 787. The line rate increased to 14 recently, which should be an uptick in deliveries, but the chart went flat.


Year 9 of the 787 deliveries and the Year 6 of the A350 deliveries are 2019, which is not even half way down. The charts probably only consider the first 5 months for the 2019 deliveries.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:02 am

h1fl1er wrote:
Vladex wrote:
A350 only had 1 delivery in 2014 and it took its time after that
A lot of airlines that are under Boeing spell from a long past ordered 787. JAL had to apologize for ordering A350, so 787 is definitely more ordered and produced but the victory is temporary and pyrhic.I believe A350 has a larger ground clearance so it will have much more engine potential along with being larger or right sized.


ayo- hol' up. so boeing is using magic spells to sell aircraft? well at least they don't have to bribe people lol

but in all seriousness, chalking the sales disparity up to a "spell" is kind of...hilarious?

what these graphs show is that either the 787 is htat much better, the 350 isn't that good, or else the 350 is too expensive for what it offers in performance vs its main alternative. 350 was on fire before it came out. if you had a car and a ton of preorders then it hit the streets and the ongoing orders dried totally up you'd say Houston we have a problem.


In terms of bribes. We have no idea if that statement is true. It took a long time for Airbus to get caught. Boeing has been caught in the past on other programs. Not neccesarily commercial aircraft.... So who knows. After all India has been rife for years with paying out to people all along the sales trip to get business sales. So they could be just as guilty of it & we or the government has not got a good evidence yet to charge them.
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:08 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
Per 2018 data the 787 is 53% GE, 33% RR, and 14% undecided.


I'll give you even better data.

Not all of the first 1,000 787s have been built but we do now know which engines each and every one will have.

The answer is 629 with the GEnx and 371 with the T1000. That's 63% GE and 37% RR. (Much as it pains me to say so...)
 
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Re: FG: How are the all-new Airbus (A350) and Boeing (787) widebodies faring?

Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:10 am

The trick is in the "normalization" of theses graphs. Post the raw data with the real date of production ad I bet you will see a totally different picture :)

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