Nami
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Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 am

Earlier this week during President Moon Jae-in's state visit to Finland it was announced that AY will be able to fly to Busan from March 2020 onwards with 3x weekly frequencies.

It seems that this hasn't gone unnoticed at KE and OZ, who for a long time were lobbying against the government allowing this to happen. It has been mentioned earlier that KE wanted AY to pay them the same amount as quoted below, 30 billion KRW per year, and not sell any connecting tickets to destinations where they themselves fly from ICN such as LHR, FRA, AMS, CDG, MAD, PRG etc. These demands didn't go through but you could say they partly succeeded as AY wanted 5x and also would have liked to get more traffic rights to ICN on top of the current 7x weekly.

Of course, until AY issues a press release it's not yet certain whether or not they will fly to PUS immediately from next year.

New Busan-Helsinki Route Irks Korean Carriers

One executive at a Korean airline complained, "We already have direct or indirect routes to major European cities, so it's a losing game to open a new direct route just to compete with Finnair as it would decrease the number of passengers on existing routes and would cost us a lot of money setting up a new office and maintaining it."

The industry predicts a loss of W30 billion for Korean carriers from the new Busan-Helsinki route (US$1=W1,183). "It is with regret that we receive the news of the government's decision without consideration of the Korean airline industry," said one industry insider. "An aviation agreement should benefit all participating parties, but that's not the case here."
 
bhxalex
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:21 am

Maybe they should stop complaining and adapt to compete?

Correct me if I'm wrong but this doesn't give AY an unfair advantage over KE & OZ.
 
finnishway
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:50 am

I know aviation is a tough business, but this complaining and lobbying against competition isn't part of free market economy.
 
lhrsfosyd91
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:50 am

AY opening up a new route to PUS should be the least of their worries. KE and OZ are bleeding money due to poor management choices, not because of heavy competition from other carriers. Korean airlines still enjoy exclusivity on very lucrative routes to JFK, LAX, ORD and others. Extremely arrogant to have the audacity to voice opposition to anyone wishing to enter the Korean market given their duopoly.
 
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DKTraveller
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:57 am

Busan (PUS) is a very nice addition to Finnairs North Asian network, and hopefully will become succesfull.
I would love to fly KE or OZ directly from CPH to Korea (ICN) but seems like not happening in near future?
 
ITSTours
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:04 am

The article is from Chosun Ilbo, the largest newspaper in South Korea which criticizes the current government every single day for whatever reason. Naturally this article provoked strong emotions from the residents in Busan and Gyeongsang province where the local people greatly benefit from the first European nonstop route. ex) http://mobile.busan.com/view/busan/view ... 5743819#cb (column in Korean)
 
ITSTours
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:07 am

lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
AY opening up a new route to PUS should be the least of their worries. KE and OZ are bleeding money due to poor management choices, not because of heavy competition from other carriers. Korean airlines still enjoy exclusivity on very lucrative routes to JFK, LAX, ORD and others. Extremely arrogant to have the audacity to voice opposition to anyone wishing to enter the Korean market given their duopoly.


While it is true that only KE and OZ exist in those three routes currently, S Korea and US have open skies and any of the US3 can start the route whenever they want. KE and OZ do indeed enjoy exclusivity on European routes like LHR, CDG and FRA though.

And this is basically why these two national carriers did not start ex-PUS longhaul routes; concentrating in ICN of course is cheaper and that is the hub-and-spoke model. While blocking the foreign players into the PUS market thereby causing significant inconvenience to the local residents. Especially KE, which has the stronger tie with the government, had successfully prevented the Finnair entrance for almost 5 years.

But they do have a disadvantage that they cannot enjoy 6th freedom demands like Finnair does. KE and OZ neither has a JV with European carriers. KE does codeshare with AF/KLM at least, but OZ does not do any codeshare with Lufthansa. But that is OZ's fault so who to blame?
 
lhrsfosyd91
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:40 am

ITSTours wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
AY opening up a new route to PUS should be the least of their worries. KE and OZ are bleeding money due to poor management choices, not because of heavy competition from other carriers. Korean airlines still enjoy exclusivity on very lucrative routes to JFK, LAX, ORD and others. Extremely arrogant to have the audacity to voice opposition to anyone wishing to enter the Korean market given their duopoly.


While it is true that only KE and OZ exist in those three routes currently, S Korea and US have open skies and any of the US3 can start the route whenever they want. KE and OZ do indeed enjoy exclusivity on European routes like LHR, CDG and FRA though.

And this is basically why these two national carriers did not start ex-PUS longhaul routes; concentrating in ICN of course is cheaper and that is the hub-and-spoke model. While blocking the foreign players into the PUS market thereby causing significant inconvenience to the local residents. Especially KE, which has the stronger tie with the government, had successfully prevented the Finnair entrance for almost 5 years.

But they do have a disadvantage that they cannot enjoy 6th freedom demands like Finnair does. KE and OZ neither has a JV with European carriers. KE does codeshare with AF/KLM at least, but OZ does not do any codeshare with Lufthansa. But that is OZ's fault so who to blame?


Care to elaborate how do Korean airlines enjoy exclusivity on LHR, CDG and FRA?
 
c933103
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:08 am

March 2020 is an interesting date, right before the next Korean presidential election.
This is a placeholder.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:45 am

Just out of curiosity, why does Osaka has far more passengers out of BUS than Tokyo? Other than being geographically closer to South Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimhae_In ... al_Airport, BUS-Japan in 2018:

1 Osaka–Kansai 1,200,457
2 Fukuoka 1,101,085
4 Tokyo–Narita 751,791
14 Sapporo–Chitose 207,424
17 Okinawa-Naha 163,505
19 Nagoya-Chūbu Centrair 153,557
26 Kitakyushu 85,042
 
jfk777
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:52 am

Cry me a river, Korean has the Schipol of Asia and wants to limit a small Scandanavian airline's flight to a Korea's second city. Who told them to buy A380's ? Noticing the river from Tokyo from ANA & JAL is quite dry too, no crying in Japan, just sucking it up.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:04 pm

How about to allow JS to build 2nd hub in PUS to compete foreign airlines?
 
konkret
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:37 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Just out of curiosity, why does Osaka has far more passengers out of BUS than Tokyo? Other than being geographically closer to South Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimhae_In ... al_Airport, BUS-Japan in 2018:

1 Osaka–Kansai 1,200,457
2 Fukuoka 1,101,085
4 Tokyo–Narita 751,791
14 Sapporo–Chitose 207,424
17 Okinawa-Naha 163,505
19 Nagoya-Chūbu Centrair 153,557
26 Kitakyushu 85,042


What I found surprising is the absolute lack of flights to HND.
I understand S.Korea is very much Seoul-centric but I was under the impression that Busan catchment area also has companies/factories which might generate business traffic.
 
hoons90
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:15 pm

ITSTours wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
AY opening up a new route to PUS should be the least of their worries. KE and OZ are bleeding money due to poor management choices, not because of heavy competition from other carriers. Korean airlines still enjoy exclusivity on very lucrative routes to JFK, LAX, ORD and others. Extremely arrogant to have the audacity to voice opposition to anyone wishing to enter the Korean market given their duopoly.


While it is true that only KE and OZ exist in those three routes currently, S Korea and US have open skies and any of the US3 can start the route whenever they want. KE and OZ do indeed enjoy exclusivity on European routes like LHR, CDG and FRA though.


BA flies LHR-ICN, AF flies CDG-ICN (although it's true that AF/KE codeshare on that route), and LH flies FRA-ICN (LH/OZ do not get along, so it might as well be considered competition).

SCQ83 wrote:
Just out of curiosity, why does Osaka has far more passengers out of BUS than Tokyo? Other than being geographically closer to South Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimhae_In ... al_Airport, BUS-Japan in 2018:

1 Osaka–Kansai 1,200,457
2 Fukuoka 1,101,085
4 Tokyo–Narita 751,791
14 Sapporo–Chitose 207,424
17 Okinawa-Naha 163,505
19 Nagoya-Chūbu Centrair 153,557
26 Kitakyushu 85,042


If I'm not mistaken, Osaka has a larger Korean population than Tokyo does.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:21 pm

konkret wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Just out of curiosity, why does Osaka has far more passengers out of BUS than Tokyo? Other than being geographically closer to South Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimhae_In ... al_Airport, BUS-Japan in 2018:

1 Osaka–Kansai 1,200,457
2 Fukuoka 1,101,085
4 Tokyo–Narita 751,791
14 Sapporo–Chitose 207,424
17 Okinawa-Naha 163,505
19 Nagoya-Chūbu Centrair 153,557
26 Kitakyushu 85,042


What I found surprising is the absolute lack of flights to HND.
I understand S.Korea is very much Seoul-centric but I was under the impression that Busan catchment area also has companies/factories which might generate business traffic.


It is all about limited allocation. Wouldn’t surprised me if PUS get HND flight with the additional slots in the upcoming allocation. KHH in Taiwan, similarly, does not have HND flight anyway.

As for the original topic - I can’t help but laugh. Seriously, if one single flight hurt your Europe network so much, maybe it is time to rethink your business strategy.
 
LAXLHR
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:06 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Cry me a river, Korean has the Schipol of Asia and wants to limit a small Scandanavian airline's flight to a Korea's second city. Who told them to buy A380's ? Noticing the river from Tokyo from ANA & JAL is quite dry too, no crying in Japan, just sucking it up.


Someone needs a few history and geography lessons ;-)

ICN is not the Schipol of Asia.

Finland is NOT a part of Scandanavia, but is a part of the Nordic countries.

Look into the Japan - South Korea historical relationship and the answer is there.

smh!!
BA JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO W7 WN NW DL QQ UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR PG MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN PC LO OK OZ UL SQ LA

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 332 333 342 343 380
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:07 pm

Such an odd situation.

Wielding such power to block competitors is certainly not going to help other areas of the country outside Seoul in this case. Seems extremely myopic to then turn around and expect others to pay for the potential loses it may bring just because competitors may actually service another city.

The Seoul-centric nature of the South Korean market seems to be an artificial construct, built by design to help KE and OZ at all costs.

Best of luck to AY. They certainly appear to have patience To get what they wanted.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:12 pm

I believe there is no openskies between the RoK and Europe (correct me if I'm wrong) hence no JV.

Also, KE only codeshares on one of the two AF flights and AF only codeshares on the daily KE flight.

I fail to see how a 3x weekly frequency would have a big impact on KE, they've been running their "domestic-international connecting pax only" flights from PUS and TAE to ICN for a few years now and KE flies to almost all the places koreans want to go to anyway, connecting in ICN or HEL won't change much.

Nice to see PUS get more international love, all I want to see now is a flight to LAX (I'm sure EK is dying to get rights also).

On a side note, PUS has always been an interesting market, I remember a few years ago BA tried to get a air-rail "codeshare" with a KTX ride from ICN to Busan. Not sure what happened to it, I guess it got discontinued when the KTX to ICN did.
 
raylee67
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:22 pm

ITSTours wrote:

While it is true that only KE and OZ exist in those three routes currently, S Korea and US have open skies and any of the US3 can start the route whenever they want. KE and OZ do indeed enjoy exclusivity on European routes like LHR, CDG and FRA though.

And this is basically why these two national carriers did not start ex-PUS longhaul routes; concentrating in ICN of course is cheaper and that is the hub-and-spoke model. While blocking the foreign players into the PUS market thereby causing significant inconvenience to the local residents. Especially KE, which has the stronger tie with the government, had successfully prevented the Finnair entrance for almost 5 years.

But they do have a disadvantage that they cannot enjoy 6th freedom demands like Finnair does. KE and OZ neither has a JV with European carriers. KE does codeshare with AF/KLM at least, but OZ does not do any codeshare with Lufthansa. But that is OZ's fault so who to blame?


But KE and OZ have 6th freedom on the other side (i.e. at ICN) which Finnair does not have. For ongoing connecting flights in Europe (let's say for traffic between London and Busan), Finnair's service would just be PUS-HEL-LHR competing with KE's PUS-ICN-LHR. Seems quite fair.

Using KE and OZ's argument, they should not be allowed to fly many Asia routes by those governments, say Danang in Vietnam, because they would be able to sell DAD-ICN-LAX, while VN is "disadvantaged".
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 351 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
ITSTours
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:09 pm

lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
AY opening up a new route to PUS should be the least of their worries. KE and OZ are bleeding money due to poor management choices, not because of heavy competition from other carriers. Korean airlines still enjoy exclusivity on very lucrative routes to JFK, LAX, ORD and others. Extremely arrogant to have the audacity to voice opposition to anyone wishing to enter the Korean market given their duopoly.


While it is true that only KE and OZ exist in those three routes currently, S Korea and US have open skies and any of the US3 can start the route whenever they want. KE and OZ do indeed enjoy exclusivity on European routes like LHR, CDG and FRA though.

And this is basically why these two national carriers did not start ex-PUS longhaul routes; concentrating in ICN of course is cheaper and that is the hub-and-spoke model. While blocking the foreign players into the PUS market thereby causing significant inconvenience to the local residents. Especially KE, which has the stronger tie with the government, had successfully prevented the Finnair entrance for almost 5 years.

But they do have a disadvantage that they cannot enjoy 6th freedom demands like Finnair does. KE and OZ neither has a JV with European carriers. KE does codeshare with AF/KLM at least, but OZ does not do any codeshare with Lufthansa. But that is OZ's fault so who to blame?


Care to elaborate how do Korean airlines enjoy exclusivity on LHR, CDG and FRA?


Of course BA, AF and LH fly on their end but these routes are traffic right limited. Usually the European side does not exhaust the rights but Korean side always does. Exclusivity here means the Korean side; no other Korean airlines can enter. Should have clarified. (Sorry I didn't have enough sleep.)
 
finnishway
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:11 pm

Some of you may remember that Finnair planned to start flying to Svalbard, Norway in 2016.

They announced the route and started selling tickets. Then Norway denied Finnair to operate that route, because it wasn't part of the air traffic agreement between Norway and Finland. Nowadays Svalbard doesn't serve international flights anymore. Would be interesting to know if Norwegian or SAS had something to do with lobbying this behind the scene protecting their small market.
 
ITSTours
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:17 pm

raylee67 wrote:
ITSTours wrote:

While it is true that only KE and OZ exist in those three routes currently, S Korea and US have open skies and any of the US3 can start the route whenever they want. KE and OZ do indeed enjoy exclusivity on European routes like LHR, CDG and FRA though.

And this is basically why these two national carriers did not start ex-PUS longhaul routes; concentrating in ICN of course is cheaper and that is the hub-and-spoke model. While blocking the foreign players into the PUS market thereby causing significant inconvenience to the local residents. Especially KE, which has the stronger tie with the government, had successfully prevented the Finnair entrance for almost 5 years.

But they do have a disadvantage that they cannot enjoy 6th freedom demands like Finnair does. KE and OZ neither has a JV with European carriers. KE does codeshare with AF/KLM at least, but OZ does not do any codeshare with Lufthansa. But that is OZ's fault so who to blame?


But KE and OZ have 6th freedom on the other side (i.e. at ICN) which Finnair does not have. For ongoing connecting flights in Europe (let's say for traffic between London and Busan), Finnair's service would just be PUS-HEL-LHR competing with KE's PUS-ICN-LHR. Seems quite fair.

Using KE and OZ's argument, they should not be allowed to fly many Asia routes by those governments, say Danang in Vietnam, because they would be able to sell DAD-ICN-LAX, while VN is "disadvantaged".


Let me clarify here; I really do not agree with their argument. They have been unfairly preventing Finnair entrance and caused the inconvenience to the Southeast Korean residents.

But their idea is they cannot develop the ex-PUS longhaul because they cannot get the feed. (And S Korean airlines have exhausted all major Europe bound traffic rights.) It is true and I do see the merit of the argument. I just do not think it is not enough to prevent the Finnair entrance.

And there isn't a HEL-PUS or even -ICN O&D market, so KE/OZ without the feed cannot develop the route. This traffic right is what only Finnair can use. And it is why these two airlines oppose, claiming that the traffic right is unfair to them.

Danang is basically dominated by Korea O&D. The market is very different.
Last edited by ITSTours on Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:21 pm

So why don't Korean or Asiana launch their own long-haul flights out of PUS? At least major gateways like LAX, LHR and CDG.

Korean long-haul seems to be fairly dominated by Korean tourists and VFR so even with a few weekly frequencies those routes should work.
 
ITSTours
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:22 pm

c933103 wrote:
March 2020 is an interesting date, right before the next Korean presidential election.


It just coincides with the IATA 20' summer season.
And it is not the presidential election. It is the general election for the Assembly members. Arguably more important is the local sentiment.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:26 pm

If AY is denied rights to PUS then OZ/KE should be limited to one city in the EU. Its only fair....
 
Blerg
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:38 pm

What kind of market is Finnair after? Are there economic ties between Busan and Europe or will they rely solely on Korean tourists?

Didn't LH operate ICN-PUS in the past?
 
jfk777
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:02 am

LAXLHR wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Cry me a river, Korean has the Schipol of Asia and wants to limit a small Scandanavian airline's flight to a Korea's second city. Who told them to buy A380's ? Noticing the river from Tokyo from ANA & JAL is quite dry too, no crying in Japan, just sucking it up.


Someone needs a few history and geography lessons ;-)

ICN is not the Schipol of Asia.

Finland is NOT a part of Scandanavia, but is a part of the Nordic countries.

Look into the Japan - South Korea historical relationship and the answer is there.

smh!!



ICN is not the Schipol of Asia ? If not Seoul then what is ? Not Narita or Haneda. Not PVG. Taipei would be a longshot. Hong Kong has many connections but Korean Air flies to more of the USA and Canada then Cathay does. SO LAXLHR, what is the Schipol of Asia ?
 
hoons90
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:39 am

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
I believe there is no openskies between the RoK and Europe (correct me if I'm wrong) hence no JV.


I believe Spain and Austria are the only European countries with unrestricted frequencies to Korea.

Blerg wrote:
Didn't LH operate ICN-PUS in the past?


Yes, LH flew MUC-ICN-PUS from March 2007 until March 2014. Frequency varied between 3x-6x weekly on the A340-300 (A340-600 in Summer 2011).
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
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thekorean
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:33 am

usflyer msp wrote:
If AY is denied rights to PUS then OZ/KE should be limited to one city in the EU. Its only fair....

Good thing it doesn't sound like South Korean government has any intentions of doing that. Aviation is not a huge part of their economy. They have bigger fish to fry.
 
Blerg
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:29 am

hoons90 wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
I believe there is no openskies between the RoK and Europe (correct me if I'm wrong) hence no JV.


I believe Spain and Austria are the only European countries with unrestricted frequencies to Korea.

Blerg wrote:
Didn't LH operate ICN-PUS in the past?


Yes, LH flew MUC-ICN-PUS from March 2007 until March 2014. Frequency varied between 3x-6x weekly on the A340-300 (A340-600 in Summer 2011).


Thanks, do you know why LH cut it? Was it due to bad loads?
 
c933103
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:18 am

usflyer msp wrote:
If AY is denied rights to PUS then OZ/KE should be limited to one city in the EU. Its only fair....

Why? AY is not Korean carrier
This is a placeholder.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:02 pm

ITSTours wrote:
While it is true that only KE and OZ exist in those three routes currently, S Korea and US have open skies and any of the US3 can start the route whenever they want. KE and OZ do indeed enjoy exclusivity on European routes like LHR, CDG and FRA though.


Out of curiosity, would this allow, say, Delta to begin flying ICN-SIN or United to start ICN-HKG? Would they have rights to transport Korean passengers on those routes, or just connecting pax? I’m not saying either airline would do this, just asking what sort of approval, if any, would be needed from Korea (ignore any approval from the third country, it’s not important).
 
flyfresno
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:04 pm

c933103 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
If AY is denied rights to PUS then OZ/KE should be limited to one city in the EU. Its only fair....

Why? AY is not Korean carrier


I see where you are going, but also, more than two EU carriers operate to ICN, so it’s not really a fair comparison.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:42 pm

flyfresno wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
While it is true that only KE and OZ exist in those three routes currently, S Korea and US have open skies and any of the US3 can start the route whenever they want. KE and OZ do indeed enjoy exclusivity on European routes like LHR, CDG and FRA though.


Out of curiosity, would this allow, say, Delta to begin flying ICN-SIN or United to start ICN-HKG? Would they have rights to transport Korean passengers on those routes, or just connecting pax? I’m not saying either airline would do this, just asking what sort of approval, if any, would be needed from Korea (ignore any approval from the third country, it’s not important).


It is limited to flights between South Korea and US. If DL wants to start ICN-SIN, they would need authority from South Korea and Singapore AFAIK, especially since South Korea-Singapore bilateral are quite restrictive. ICN-HKG...well, if DL wants to lose tons of money. Fifth freedom rights to HKG is probably easier to get (AI still fly that, ET used to also), but that market is extremely crowded with tons of LCC presence. Plus KE has enough flight to feed whatever DL pax transiting at ICN.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:52 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
While it is true that only KE and OZ exist in those three routes currently, S Korea and US have open skies and any of the US3 can start the route whenever they want. KE and OZ do indeed enjoy exclusivity on European routes like LHR, CDG and FRA though.


Out of curiosity, would this allow, say, Delta to begin flying ICN-SIN or United to start ICN-HKG? Would they have rights to transport Korean passengers on those routes, or just connecting pax? I’m not saying either airline would do this, just asking what sort of approval, if any, would be needed from Korea (ignore any approval from the third country, it’s not important).


It is limited to flights between South Korea and US. If DL wants to start ICN-SIN, they would need authority from South Korea and Singapore AFAIK, especially since South Korea-Singapore bilateral are quite restrictive. ICN-HKG...well, if DL wants to lose tons of money. Fifth freedom rights to HKG is probably easier to get (AI still fly that, ET used to also), but that market is extremely crowded with tons of LCC presence. Plus KE has enough flight to feed whatever DL pax transiting at ICN.


I did say UA for HKG, and I also said neither airline would do it...I’m more curious about if it’s possible.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:54 pm

I don’t see how this is any different from the US 3 not liking the Gulf carriers.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:50 pm

flyfresno wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
flyfresno wrote:

Out of curiosity, would this allow, say, Delta to begin flying ICN-SIN or United to start ICN-HKG? Would they have rights to transport Korean passengers on those routes, or just connecting pax? I’m not saying either airline would do this, just asking what sort of approval, if any, would be needed from Korea (ignore any approval from the third country, it’s not important).


It is limited to flights between South Korea and US. If DL wants to start ICN-SIN, they would need authority from South Korea and Singapore AFAIK, especially since South Korea-Singapore bilateral are quite restrictive. ICN-HKG...well, if DL wants to lose tons of money. Fifth freedom rights to HKG is probably easier to get (AI still fly that, ET used to also), but that market is extremely crowded with tons of LCC presence. Plus KE has enough flight to feed whatever DL pax transiting at ICN.


I did say UA for HKG, and I also said neither airline would do it...I’m more curious about if it’s possible.


I did miss the UA part.

For ICN-SIN: highly doubtful. AFAIK not even South Korean LCCs can get rights on that route right now, as the bilateral is very restrictive.

For ICN-HKG: That would depends on HK Aviation Authority and South Korea. I don’t think it is 100% Open Skies right now (I can be totally wrong, though). Either way, considering that UA only fly to ICN from SFO, there is no reason for UA to try to get the beyond fifth freedom rights anyway, especially since UA fly SFO-HKG as well.
 
Carfield
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:11 pm

I just want to add that Delta used to fly between Busan and Tokyo Narita using one of those 757s.
I flew that flight once and the loading looked pretty good, but the yield might be the issue.

JAL, despite cutting Incheon to Narita route, has kept the twice daily Busan to Narita flights, and connection traffic possibly has something to do with it.

Carfield
 
ITSTours
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:27 pm

flyfresno wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
While it is true that only KE and OZ exist in those three routes currently, S Korea and US have open skies and any of the US3 can start the route whenever they want. KE and OZ do indeed enjoy exclusivity on European routes like LHR, CDG and FRA though.


Out of curiosity, would this allow, say, Delta to begin flying ICN-SIN or United to start ICN-HKG? Would they have rights to transport Korean passengers on those routes, or just connecting pax? I’m not saying either airline would do this, just asking what sort of approval, if any, would be needed from Korea (ignore any approval from the third country, it’s not important).


US and South Korea have open skies that include beyond and intermediate rights.
They still need to get approval as usual (which is true for any country, any route...) but they do not need to obtain a traffic right.

Third country approval is a totally different issue but let us ignore that for now as you said.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:06 pm

If OZ and KE are so upset, why didn't they try PUS long-haul to Europe before AY thought of it? They probably know about AY's strategy of making HEL the DXB of the north.
 
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huaiwei
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:26 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
If OZ and KE are so upset, why didn't they try PUS long-haul to Europe before AY thought of it? They probably know about AY's strategy of making HEL the DXB of the north.

Because unlike DXB, HEL is not a major destination in its own right for the Far East market. Only AY can make it work by getting people to transit through HEL.

So is Finland prepared to give the Koreans fifth freedoms to fly beyond HEL and pick up passengers there?
It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
 
WorldspotterPL
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:37 pm

jfk777 wrote:
LAXLHR wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Cry me a river, Korean has the Schipol of Asia and wants to limit a small Scandanavian airline's flight to a Korea's second city. Who told them to buy A380's ? Noticing the river from Tokyo from ANA & JAL is quite dry too, no crying in Japan, just sucking it up.


Someone needs a few history and geography lessons ;-)

ICN is not the Schipol of Asia.

Finland is NOT a part of Scandanavia, but is a part of the Nordic countries.

Look into the Japan - South Korea historical relationship and the answer is there.

smh!!



ICN is not the Schipol of Asia ? If not Seoul then what is ? Not Narita or Haneda. Not PVG. Taipei would be a longshot. Hong Kong has many connections but Korean Air flies to more of the USA and Canada then Cathay does. SO LAXLHR, what is the Schipol of Asia ?


There is no Schiphol of Asia, especially not one of Far East Asia. Both ICN hubs (KE and OZ) have low connecting passenger percentages (KE 25%, OZ 16%). That is only 15k absolute daily connecting pax for KE and a mere 7k for OZ (2017 data). Neither of the Tokyo and Chinese hubs are more impressive as you stated correctly ([email protected] 27% and 6k absolute, [email protected] 27%, 10k, [email protected] 22%, 23k, [email protected] 27%,22k and [email protected] 17%, 22k). The only airline/airport operations that come even close to what KLM/SkyTeam do at AMS (58% connecting pax, 70k in absolute terms) in Asia are [email protected] (48%, 48k), [email protected], and [email protected] (both around 35% and 35k/27k respectively). While we are at it, [email protected] is even more impressive, 68% and 90k, let alone ATL and DXB.

Best,
PL
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:44 pm

WorldspotterPL wrote:
There is no Schiphol of Asia, especially not one of Far East Asia. Both ICN hubs (KE and OZ) have low connecting passenger percentages (KE 25%, OZ 16%). That is only 15k absolute daily connecting pax for KE and a mere 7k for OZ (2017 data). Neither of the Tokyo and Chinese hubs are more impressive as you stated correctly ([email protected] 27% and 6k absolute, [email protected] 27%, 10k, [email protected] 22%, 23k, [email protected] 27%,22k and [email protected] 17%, 22k). The only airline/airport operations that come even close to what KLM/SkyTeam do at AMS (58% connecting pax, 70k in absolute terms) in Asia are [email protected] (48%, 48k), [email protected], and [email protected] (both around 35% and 35k/27k respectively). While we are at it, [email protected] is even more impressive, 68% and 90k, let alone ATL and DXB.

Best,
PL


I wonder where the number for HKG came from. Using (albeit slightly old) OAG data, it's something like 70-30 for Local vs. Connecting pax at HKG. Counting both CX and KA and I still only get about 41k daily connecting pax (~36k on CX).

But yes, ICN overall has maybe 20% connecting traffic (I average the 25% from 2014 and ~16% from 2017 in the OAG report), nowhere near US hubs or European hubs.

https://www.oag.com/hubfs/Free_Reports/ ... Report.pdf

If anything, to me ICN resemble CDG more than AMS, both having large local demand, although being somewhat overshadow by a neighbor further "out" (Tokyo in ICN's case, London in Paris' case).
 
WorldspotterPL
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:02 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
I wonder where the number for HKG came from. Using (albeit slightly old) OAG data, it's something like 70-30 for Local vs. Connecting pax at HKG. Counting both CX and KA and I still only get about 41k daily connecting pax (~36k on CX).

But yes, ICN overall has maybe 20% connecting traffic (I average the 25% from 2014 and ~16% from 2017 in the OAG report), nowhere near US hubs or European hubs.

https://www.oag.com/hubfs/Free_Reports/ ... Report.pdf

If anything, to me ICN resemble CDG more than AMS, both having large local demand, although being somewhat overshadow by a neighbor further "out" (Tokyo in ICN's case, London in Paris' case).


Good point, Indeed, I count airlines including alliance and other partners as well as sub-divisions.

About CDG, it actually isn't that different to AMS when looking at the SkyTeam operation (53% and 62k) with very similar O&D numbers, too. The larger O&D compared to AMS is captured by foreign carriers and Orly. In terms of overshadowing by neighbours you are right, especially in terms of trans-ocean ops to the US respectively.
 
ITSTours
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:09 am

Delta's ICN connecting % was almost 40% right before the JV. I guess it is now even higher. But it is only Delta.
The Korean government wants higher connecting % to really become the Schipol of Asia but the airlines focus on O&D which is of course more profitable. Especially LCCs do not care about connections.

I think they should focus more on cargo connections which actually works very well.
 
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teme82
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:46 am

huaiwei wrote:
So is Finland prepared to give the Koreans fifth freedoms to fly beyond HEL and pick up passengers there?

The agreement has already 5th freedom rights to both parties. This agreement seems to be extension to the original. If I understood the agreement text correctly.

[EDIT] And the agreement gives both sides two destinations... Plus there is a clause for fair competition
Flying high and low
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:16 am

jfk777 wrote:
Cry me a river, Korean has the Schipol of Asia and wants to limit a small Scandanavian airline's flight to a Korea's second city.


Amen
 
leftcoast8
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:25 am

A big reason SQ ended service to YVR in 2009 was because the route was SIN-ICN-YVR (with full 5th freedom rights on the SIN-ICN segment). South Korea has restricted bilaterals with Singapore and refused SQ's request for more SIN-ICN slots. So when the GFC kicked into high gear, SQ was forced to axe its less profitable routes, of which SIN-YVR was one. This freed up three SIN-ICN slots (the service was 3 weekly).

The U.S.-Korea and Canada-Korea open skies agreements are the exception and not the norm--the ROK government is surprisingly restrictive with rights to European and Asian countries, at the behest of Hanjin and Kumho Asiana (the chaebol that own KE/OZ). People think AC throws its weight around to nix EK's proposals for YVR and YYC routes, but that's child's play compared to how stingy ROK is with bilaterals. HKSAR's Civil Aviation Department is also fairly restrictive with 5th freedom rights out of HKG, if I recall.
 
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QuawerAir
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:43 am

Finnair announced today the launch of Busan-service. The route will be operated from 30 March 2020 with Airbus A350 on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. Thus, Finnair will fly 10x weekly to South Korea.

Finnair
ATL, AYT, FRA, FUE, HEL, JFK, LCA, LHR, MUC | AY, BA, DL, FH, LH, LO | A320, A321, A333, 752, 764, 772, 788
The word "Quawer" means nothing but it looks great.
 
hoons90
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Re: Korean Air and Asiana unhappy about the government allowing Finnair to fly to PUS

Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:14 pm

QuawerAir wrote:
Finnair announced today the launch of Busan-service. The route will be operated from 30 March 2020 with Airbus A350 on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. Thus, Finnair will fly 10x weekly to South Korea.

Finnair


I'm very happy about this news. Really hope they stick it to KE.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.

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