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Stitch
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:50 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Please also note the total absence of an artist impression, or model aircraft, in BA colours at the 'ceremony'. Being that closely associated with a tarred product was probably a step too far for BA, and may speak volumes of their true intentions.


So making an announcement at the one time of year when most of the world's media gives a rat's buttocks about reporting aerospace news about a "tarred product" was how IAG wanted to distance themselves from being associated with the MAX?

B777LRF wrote:
I fully expect British Airways to use this as nothing more than a bargaining chip when speaking to the suits of Toulouse, and to let the LoI lapse once they've gotten what they wanted: Cheaper A320-series.


If IAG wanted a lower price from Airbus, all they had to do was wait for Boeing's "Best and Final" offer and if it was lower than what Airbus had offered, tell Airbus what Boeing offered and wait for Airbus to beat it. South African Airways played this same strategy over a decade ago to get Airbus to lower the A340-600 price during an RFP with the 777-300ER. Hell, if my sources are correct, IAG did (effectively) this for their A380 order during an RFP with the 747-8.


B777LRF wrote:
The price for all this? Probably a very sweet deal on the delayed 777X and promises of deep discounts on their next 787 order.


So Boeing agrees to allow IAG to make a false claim that they intend to buy 200 737 MAX for various divisions and in return, not only will Boeing lose a 200 frame sale to the A320 family, they will also allow IAG to have a lower price on the 777X order they recently firmed and will pay below market price for a follow-on 787 order. Assuming, of course, IAG doesn't decide to take that reduced 787 contract to Airbus for A350-900s and/or A330-900s. I also assume you forgot to mention that Boeing agreed to provide IAG with a discount on the 777X service agreement they entered into, as well.

And lest we forget, IAG also agreed to make a false statement to the London Stock Exchange about their intent to purchase the 737s and therefore would have a material effect on their stock price. I am sure that both IAG investors and British Exchange officials will have no issue with that.

Seriously... Even if I thought I'd seen it all, I would have been wrong...
 
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Stitch
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:58 pm

BoeingVista wrote:
But there is something weird about this order, usually an intention to order is announced after a board meeting as it required board approval so this must have been a rush job that certainly implies very keen pricing.


The Board may very well have given IAG's executives the authority to enter into an LoI if certain conditions were met. IAG and Boeing would then work on drafting a final Sales Contract that would be taken to the respective Boards for final review and approval.
 
lhrnue
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:41 pm

The notorious British press is not holding back on this news.
 
smartplane
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:51 pm

MCTSET wrote:
They may have got such a good price that they can just lease them out to airlines in Asia and Africa that need them for a decent margin. I think this is the strategy of indigo partners airlines, buy big and fill where needed, if not lease them out. Another debate is that why do IAG need to place these MAX’s in an existing airline, maybe they set up in new airline in a new geography, who said IAG airlines have to be in Europe

Except A & B sale / purchase agreements preclude airline customers from selling / leasing off undelivered orders, without the OEM's approval, as effectively airlines are then competing with the OEM in respect to new sales.
 
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keesje
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:31 pm

smartplane wrote:
MCTSET wrote:
They may have got such a good price that they can just lease them out to airlines in Asia and Africa that need them for a decent margin. I think this is the strategy of indigo partners airlines, buy big and fill where needed, if not lease them out. Another debate is that why do IAG need to place these MAX’s in an existing airline, maybe they set up in new airline in a new geography, who said IAG airlines have to be in Europe

Except A & B sale / purchase agreements preclude airline customers from selling / leasing off undelivered orders, without the OEM's approval, as effectively airlines are then competing with the OEM in respect to new sales.


We don't know the terms and conditions future contracts after this LOI could have. They possibly include a lot of thresholds, escape doors and parachutes. The seller is in no position to be tough.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
PixelPilot
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:54 pm

Everybody crying now but by the time the birds enter the fleet nobody will remember a thing.
It's the era of sensationalism and being offended. Both work great to stir the pot and unfortunately a lot of people join that train.
Good thing is they find something to be offended by on a daily basis so in this day and age it's just noise.

Of course as long as Boeing gets the bird airworthy :)
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:55 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Can’t wait for this to be firmed up to see what nonsense people start saying then.


Sigh. It'll be the Delta A350/A330neo order again, but in reverse.
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:03 am

Stitch wrote:
BoeingVista wrote:
But there is something weird about this order, usually an intention to order is announced after a board meeting as it required board approval so this must have been a rush job that certainly implies very keen pricing.


The Board may very well have given IAG's executives the authority to enter into an LoI if certain conditions were met. IAG and Boeing would then work on drafting a final Sales Contract that would be taken to the respective Boards for final review and approval.


Its possible, but I think you agree that this is not a normal IAG order process which is long winded with public announcements of what aircraft it is asking for RFP's from OEM's. If the board gave an authority for an adhoc LOI then it will have been on IAG's terms though obviously Boeing boosters are never going to admit this. Clearly IAG did not need to do a snap order here, Boeing needed to change the narrative which they successfully did and that would have come at a financial cost to Boeing.
BV
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:32 am

Before the Paris Air Show, the talk was all about how horrible the show was going to be for Boeing because of the fallout of the MAX.

After the Paris Air Show, the talk was all about how horrible the show was for Boeing because they announced an LOI for 200 MAX.

:rotfl:

Only on A.net.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:25 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
Before the Paris Air Show, the talk was all about how horrible the show was going to be for Boeing because of the fallout of the MAX.

After the Paris Air Show, the talk was all about how horrible the show was for Boeing because they announced an LOI for 200 MAX.

:rotfl:

Only on A.net.


You can see it that way if you want but thats not how I see it.

The IAG deal is good business for Boeing & IAG; whatever price they got for the planes will be forgotten in the oral and written history (apart from us old timers on A.net), what will be considered important is that a blue chip airline group backed the MAX, its now up to Boeing to use this afterglow properly and get the MAX back in the air as soon as they can without creating any corner cutting controversies.
BV
 
talonone
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:35 am

CHRISBA35X wrote:
Absolutely astonished by this IAG order. Absolitely out of nowhere, seemingly.

I don't see these going to BA but I could absolutely see EI replacing their A320, 752 and A321 fleet with 738/A321XLR. Also Level and Vuelling. Struggling to see IB going 737 for the narrowbody fleet but stranger things have happened.

Vueling is a all Airbus fleet. Iberia also. Level is just a name flying with Iberia AOC! Are Lingus is also an all Airbus fleet. The only IAG member with a mixt fleet is BA. Just imagine the cost to introduce a new plane type in 4 airlines. Pilot's training and rate types, spare parts, mechanics, ground handling, etc...
Is just a move to keep Airbus on their toes, and to give a confidence vote for the so much hurted 737Max program.
The space and human stupidity are endless. Maybe the space is not... but the human stupidity for sure!
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:48 am

talonone wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
Absolutely astonished by this IAG order. Absolitely out of nowhere, seemingly.

I don't see these going to BA but I could absolutely see EI replacing their A320, 752 and A321 fleet with 738/A321XLR. Also Level and Vuelling. Struggling to see IB going 737 for the narrowbody fleet but stranger things have happened.

Vueling is a all Airbus fleet. Iberia also. Level is just a name flying with Iberia AOC! Are Lingus is also an all Airbus fleet. The only IAG member with a mixt fleet is BA. Just imagine the cost to introduce a new plane type in 4 airlines. Pilot's training and rate types, spare parts, mechanics, ground handling, etc...
Is just a move to keep Airbus on their toes, and to give a confidence vote for the so much hurted 737Max program.


Yeah, because airlines are in the business of spending billions of dollars for votes of confidence
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
AirwayBill
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:59 am

MileHFL400 wrote:

Yeah, because airlines are in the business of spending billions of dollars for votes of confidence


Pretty sure they haven't spent a single dime on this LOI yet.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:01 am

AirwayBill wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:

Yeah, because airlines are in the business of spending billions of dollars for votes of confidence


Pretty sure they haven't spent a single dime on this LOI yet.


I’ve never heard of IAG not firming up one
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
talonone
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:10 am

MileHFL400 wrote:
talonone wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
Absolutely astonished by this IAG order. Absolitely out of nowhere, seemingly.

I don't see these going to BA but I could absolutely see EI replacing their A320, 752 and A321 fleet with 738/A321XLR. Also Level and Vuelling. Struggling to see IB going 737 for the narrowbody fleet but stranger things have happened.

Vueling is a all Airbus fleet. Iberia also. Level is just a name flying with Iberia AOC! Are Lingus is also an all Airbus fleet. The only IAG member with a mixt fleet is BA. Just imagine the cost to introduce a new plane type in 4 airlines. Pilot's training and rate types, spare parts, mechanics, ground handling, etc...
Is just a move to keep Airbus on their toes, and to give a confidence vote for the so much hurted 737Max program.


Yeah, because airlines are in the business of spending billions of dollars for votes of confidence


You see, we do have a problem. We want to belive so hard, that we do not see the obvious matter.
The costs of introducing this new type of aircraft do you think will be supported by Boeing? By the companies? Do you know how much cost for an airliner to introduce a new type of plane.
On the other hand, IAG needs a as in the sleeve for the future acquisition. And now is acquired. This LOI to became a firm order? Difficult, but not impossible.
But take the facts, and not the dreams in to account.
The space and human stupidity are endless. Maybe the space is not... but the human stupidity for sure!
 
Amiga500
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:18 am

BoeingVista wrote:
The IAG deal is good business for Boeing & IAG


I'd say its great business for both (maybe marginally less great for Boeing).

For Boeing: Assurance on the MAX - you could see quite a few smaller airlines order over the back of this year based on IAG having vetted and being confident in the type.

For IAG: You got to imagine its come at a pretty keen price so in itself is a great deal - and its going to keep Airbus honest in the future too.
 
T4thH
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:30 am

Boeing PAS19 order announcement.
200 737 Max
20 B787-9/10
10 B787-10 via lease (so old)
5 B787-9
5 777F
up to 6 777F
1 777-200
45 B737-800 freighter conversions (of existing passender jets)
https://twitter.com/hashtag/pas19?f=tweets&vertical=news
 
ELBOB
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:31 am

Amiga500 wrote:
and its going to keep Airbus honest in the future too.


Why? Airbus could skip the next thirty orders of this size before their narrowbody backlog would be zeroed. They'd be foolish to concede on price to IAG; let that airline group eat the cost of introducing new support processes, pilot training and certification and just sit back laughing.

The Max is the last of the 737 line, so IAG will have to do that all again when it comes to fleet-renewal time around 2055. They'd better have extracted one heck of a bargain from Boeing to compensate for work that they'll have to throw away in the future.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:46 am

ELBOB wrote:
Why? Airbus could skip the next thirty orders of this size before their narrowbody backlog would be zeroed.


Assuming neither A or B are selling below cost, a plane sold is a profit made.

Is it better to have some profit than no profit? Or is it better to run the risk of not filling that slot and letting your competitor have it? In some cases it will be the former, in other cases the latter.

I'd say right now, Airbus are in the latter bracket as the risk of not filling the slots are extremely low. But that might not be the case next time they are up for renewal - and they know that an IAG threat to go to Seattle is not an idle one.


Ryanair have cried wolf one time too many in Toulouse and are now not taken seriously - hence why O'Leary can't get a good price out of Boeing.
 
Andy33
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:45 am

talonone wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
Absolutely astonished by this IAG order. Absolitely out of nowhere, seemingly.

I don't see these going to BA but I could absolutely see EI replacing their A320, 752 and A321 fleet with 738/A321XLR. Also Level and Vuelling. Struggling to see IB going 737 for the narrowbody fleet but stranger things have happened.

Vueling is a all Airbus fleet. Iberia also. Level is just a name flying with Iberia AOC! Are Lingus is also an all Airbus fleet. The only IAG member with a mixt fleet is BA. Just imagine the cost to introduce a new plane type in 4 airlines. Pilot's training and rate types, spare parts, mechanics, ground handling, etc...
Is just a move to keep Airbus on their toes, and to give a confidence vote for the so much hurted 737Max program.

I do wish people would read the thread before commenting.
Willie Walsh, IAG's CEO, said at the show, as the LOI was being announced, that these planes would be used by Vueling, Level, and BA's Gatwick operation. If he had meant that they would actually be used by Iberia, Aer Lingus, or BA Heathrow, he'd have said so.
Level do not operate all their flights using Iberia's AOC, just the long-haul ones out of Spain. They also have a French AOC (formerly used by BA Openskies) used for long haul flights from Paris, and an Austrian one used for shorthaul flights from Vienna and Amsterdam.
There's a good precedent in Europe for converting an entire sizable airline from one plane model to another from a different manufacturer, when EasyJet changed from an all-737NG fleet to an all A320series fleet. European airline managers know as a result that it can be done, how it was done, and roughly how much it would cost.
Vueling have 122 A320 series planes, Level have 7, and BA Gatwick 30. An order (ok, LOI) for 200 planes isn't unreasonable to replace 159 planes when two of the three fleets are expanding rapidly. BA Gatwick's planes are all leased, and will fall due for replacement in the early to mid 2020s. Vueling's planes are mostly leased. Some are quite new, and thanks to IAG's internal standardisation policy, an A320 series plane can be moved from one of its operating fleets to another in less than a week, including seat swap if required, and a repaint., and be indistinguishable from planes delivered new to the receiving fleet. So it entirely possible that those Iberia, Aer Lingus, and BA Heathrow A320ceo series planes that will fall due for replacement and don't already have A320neos on order for that purpose, will see cascaded Vueling Airbuses instead . The Paris Air Show actually saw new A320neo series orders for IAG - A321XLRs for Iberia and Aer Lingus, so there's clearly a commitment to keeping those two fleets as A320series.
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:00 pm

Andy33 wrote:
talonone wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
Absolutely astonished by this IAG order. Absolitely out of nowhere, seemingly.

I don't see these going to BA but I could absolutely see EI replacing their A320, 752 and A321 fleet with 738/A321XLR. Also Level and Vuelling. Struggling to see IB going 737 for the narrowbody fleet but stranger things have happened.

Vueling is a all Airbus fleet. Iberia also. Level is just a name flying with Iberia AOC! Are Lingus is also an all Airbus fleet. The only IAG member with a mixt fleet is BA. Just imagine the cost to introduce a new plane type in 4 airlines. Pilot's training and rate types, spare parts, mechanics, ground handling, etc...
Is just a move to keep Airbus on their toes, and to give a confidence vote for the so much hurted 737Max program.

I do wish people would read the thread before commenting.
Willie Walsh, IAG's CEO, said at the show, as the LOI was being announced, that these planes would be used by Vueling, Level, and BA's Gatwick operation. If he had meant that they would actually be used by Iberia, Aer Lingus, or BA Heathrow, he'd have said so.
Level do not operate all their flights using Iberia's AOC, just the long-haul ones out of Spain. They also have a French AOC (formerly used by BA Openskies) used for long haul flights from Paris, and an Austrian one used for shorthaul flights from Vienna and Amsterdam.
There's a good precedent in Europe for converting an entire sizable airline from one plane model to another from a different manufacturer, when EasyJet changed from an all-737NG fleet to an all A320series fleet. European airline managers know as a result that it can be done, how it was done, and roughly how much it would cost.
Vueling have 122 A320 series planes, Level have 7, and BA Gatwick 30. An order (ok, LOI) for 200 planes isn't unreasonable to replace 159 planes when two of the three fleets are expanding rapidly. BA Gatwick's planes are all leased, and will fall due for replacement in the early to mid 2020s. Vueling's planes are mostly leased. Some are quite new, and thanks to IAG's internal standardisation policy, an A320 series plane can be moved from one of its operating fleets to another in less than a week, including seat swap if required, and a repaint., and be indistinguishable from planes delivered new to the receiving fleet. So it entirely possible that those Iberia, Aer Lingus, and BA Heathrow A320ceo series planes that will fall due for replacement and don't already have A320neos on order for that purpose, will see cascaded Vueling Airbuses instead . The Paris Air Show actually saw new A320neo series orders for IAG - A321XLRs for Iberia and Aer Lingus, so there's clearly a commitment to keeping those two fleets as A320series.


Its also not unheard of for one group to run different narrow body fleets for different brands, QF uses 737's and Jetstar uses A320's
BV
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:19 pm

I don't understand why people think IAG would take the PR hit from announcing a MAX LOI now if they didn't intend to order them.

BoeingVista wrote:

The IAG deal is good business for Boeing & IAG; whatever price they got for the planes will be forgotten in the oral and written history (apart from us old timers on A.net), what will be considered important is that a blue chip airline group backed the MAX, its now up to Boeing to use this afterglow properly and get the MAX back in the air as soon as they can without creating any corner cutting controversies.
I think this sums it up pretty well.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
musman9853
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:27 pm

T4thH wrote:
Boeing PAS19 order announcement.
200 737 Max
20 B787-9/10
10 B787-10 via lease (so old)
5 B787-9
5 777F
up to 6 777F
1 777-200
45 B737-800 freighter conversions (of existing passender jets)
https://twitter.com/hashtag/pas19?f=tweets&vertical=news


Didn't ALC also buy 30 more 787s?
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cv990Coronado
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:28 pm

BoeingVista wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Before the Paris Air Show, the talk was all about how horrible the show was going to be for Boeing because of the fallout of the MAX.



The IAG deal is good business for Boeing & IAG; whatever price they got for the planes will be forgotten in the oral and written history (apart from us old timers on A.net), what will be considered important is that a blue chip airline group backed the MAX, its now up to Boeing to use this afterglow properly and get the MAX back in the air as soon as they can without creating any corner cutting controversies.


Willie Walsh's statement at a time when Boeing was in need of affirmation from a blue chip airline will I'm sure to be remembered in Seattle/Chicago. This will be very beneficial to IAG over time irrespective of whether this order is eventually fulfilled or not,
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scbriml
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:33 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
I don't understand why people think IAG would take the PR hit from announcing a MAX LOI now if they didn't intend to order them.


I don't subscribe to the #FakeNews view on this, but let's be clear, there would be no "PR hit" if IAG simply said nothing and let this LOI quietly expire. None whatsoever.
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Bricktop
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:44 pm

scbriml wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
I don't understand why people think IAG would take the PR hit from announcing a MAX LOI now if they didn't intend to order them.


I don't subscribe to the #FakeNews view on this, but let's be clear, there would be no "PR hit" if IAG simply said nothing and let this LOI quietly expire. None whatsoever.

The PR hit they are taking is right now. There's no rational reason to take it, fanboy fantasies aside.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:00 pm

Bricktop wrote:
scbriml wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
I don't understand why people think IAG would take the PR hit from announcing a MAX LOI now if they didn't intend to order them.


I don't subscribe to the #FakeNews view on this, but let's be clear, there would be no "PR hit" if IAG simply said nothing and let this LOI quietly expire. None whatsoever.

The PR hit they are taking is right now. There's no rational reason to take it, fanboy fantasies aside.

Exactly.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:37 pm

All the announcements up to now. Excluding the converted freighter deals, just the new builds.

Korean Air – commitment – 10x 787-9, 10x 787-10
ALC – commitment – 5x 787-9
Air China – intention – 6x 777F (from earlier announcement by the airline 3x firm + 3 option)
Qatar Airways – commitment – 5x 777F
Turkmenistan Airlines – commitment – 1x 777-200LR
IAG – LOI – 200x 737 MAX

Boeing has not done an airshow wrap-up, there might be more news..?

No firm orders announced, but I would still consider it a good number of commitments considering the MAX situation.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:32 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
All the announcements up to now. Excluding the converted freighter deals, just the new builds.

Korean Air – commitment – 10x 787-9, 10x 787-10
ALC – commitment – 5x 787-9
Air China – intention – 6x 777F (from earlier announcement by the airline 3x firm + 3 option)
Qatar Airways – commitment – 5x 777F
Turkmenistan Airlines – commitment – 1x 777-200LR
IAG – LOI – 200x 737 MAX

Boeing has not done an airshow wrap-up, there might be more news..?

No firm orders announced, but I would still consider it a good number of commitments considering the MAX situation.

Thanks for this also Momo1435.

As I said over in the Airbus thread, looking at that list it is less than 2 months 787 production at rate 14. On the 777 front, a few months at best. Very meh indeed. So the "biggie" without doubt is the shocker of the 200 Max order from IAG. The world knew that Airbus was going to launch the A321XLR at PAS, but if anyone says they saw the IAG order coming they are full of it.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:43 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
Air China – intention – 6x 777F (from earlier announcement by the airline 3x firm + 3 option)


China Airlines, not Air China.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:28 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
Air China – intention – 6x 777F (from earlier announcement by the airline 3x firm + 3 option)


China Airlines, not Air China.
You read one thing and then still write the other. Chips happens.
 
LHR01
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:49 pm

IAG 737 Max 8/10 Order LoI/MoU 200
Korean Air Korean Air 787-9 Order LoI/MoU 10
Korean Air Korean Air 787-10 Order LoI/MoU 10
China Airlines China Airlines 777F Order LoI/MoU 6
Air Lease 787-9 Order LoI/MoU 5
Turkmenistan Airlines Turkmenistan Airlines 777-200LR Order LoI/MoU 1
Last edited by LHR01 on Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:51 pm

LHR01 wrote:
IAG 737 Max 8/10 Order LoI/MoU 50


This should be 200
 
LHR01
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:57 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
LHR01 wrote:
IAG 737 Max 8/10 Order LoI/MoU 50


This should be 200



it is
 
jbs2886
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:58 pm

LHR01 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
LHR01 wrote:
IAG 737 Max 8/10 Order LoI/MoU 50


This should be 200



it is


Well it wasn't in your original post, as quoted. lol
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:05 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
LHR01 wrote:
IAG 737 Max 8/10 Order LoI/MoU 50


This should be 200


Probably just referring to how many Boeing will actually charge IAG for. . .
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gatibosgru
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:31 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
LHR01 wrote:
IAG 737 Max 8/10 Order LoI/MoU 50


This should be 200


Probably just referring to how many Boeing will actually charge IAG for. . .


There's a thread to discuss this order specifically if you'd like.

Back to the topic, I wonder if this is it for Boeing, I thought Fridays were usually not a big deal closing day.
@DadCelo
 
talonone
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:38 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
talonone wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
Absolutely astonished by this IAG order. Absolitely out of nowhere, seemingly.

I don't see these going to BA but I could absolutely see EI replacing their A320, 752 and A321 fleet with 738/A321XLR. Also Level and Vuelling. Struggling to see IB going 737 for the narrowbody fleet but stranger things have happened.

Vueling is a all Airbus fleet. Iberia also. Level is just a name flying with Iberia AOC! Are Lingus is also an all Airbus fleet. The only IAG member with a mixt fleet is BA. Just imagine the cost to introduce a new plane type in 4 airlines. Pilot's training and rate types, spare parts, mechanics, ground handling, etc...
Is just a move to keep Airbus on their toes, and to give a confidence vote for the so much hurted 737Max program.


Yeah, because airlines are in the business of spending billions of dollars for votes of confidence

Since when a LOI costs "billions of dollars" :banghead:
The space and human stupidity are endless. Maybe the space is not... but the human stupidity for sure!
 
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Stitch
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:55 pm

BoeingVista wrote:
Its possible, but I think you agree that this is not a normal IAG order process which is long winded with public announcements of what aircraft it is asking for RFP's from OEM's. If the board gave an authority for an adhoc LOI then it will have been on IAG's terms though obviously Boeing boosters are never going to admit this. Clearly IAG did not need to do a snap order here, Boeing needed to change the narrative which they successfully did and that would have come at a financial cost to Boeing.


Well Airbus' Christian Scherer claims IAG never issued an RFP so it might have been a case where Boeing and IAG were discussing an exclusive. Which to me means more that IAG wanted to diversify it's fleet between both OEMs and not play Airbus and Boeing off against each other with the goal of whomever offered the "best" deal would win. Let us not forget that IAG did at one time consider 787s for Iberia even though they were only operated Airbus aircraft. That being said, Airbus have claimed they will work hard to get IAG to never consummate the LoI and instead order Airbus so we shall see what is going on.

I still don't see why Boeing has to gut themselves for a potential 200 frame order considering they have a backlog of 4500 frames already that will take close to a decade to deliver. Either Boeing is going to fix the MAX or not. If they do, then soon enough the grounding will fade away just as it did for the 787. And if they don't, well then it doesn't matter how many airlines sign LoIs for how many MAX.



Then again, if Boeing really did offer to see these planes for next to nothing, better to let Airbus win the order away by selling them for literally nothing. :silly:
 
marcelh
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:22 pm

@Stitch: a “next to nothing” offer from Boeing smells like dumping...
 
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Stitch
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:26 pm

marcelh wrote:
@Stitch: a “next to nothing” offer from Boeing smells like dumping...


Well it's only dumping if AIG actually firms the order, and since many have made it clear they will not, it's okay. :silly:
 
Checklist787
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:42 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
Before the Paris Air Show, the talk was all about how horrible the show was going to be for Boeing because of the fallout of the MAX.

After the Paris Air Show, the talk was all about how horrible the show was for Boeing because they announced an LOI for 200 MAX.

:rotfl:

Only on A.net.


Mdrrr!!! It's pretty pathetic I recognize
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bob75013
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:47 pm

Bricktop wrote:
scbriml wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
I don't understand why people think IAG would take the PR hit from announcing a MAX LOI now if they didn't intend to order them.


I don't subscribe to the #FakeNews view on this, but let's be clear, there would be no "PR hit" if IAG simply said nothing and let this LOI quietly expire. None whatsoever.

The PR hit they are taking is right now. There's no rational reason to take it, fanboy fantasies aside.


The only PR hit they are taking is right here on a.net. In the real world that is absolutely meaningless. Sorry to burst the bubble of haters out there.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:51 pm

scbriml wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
I don't understand why people think IAG would take the PR hit from announcing a MAX LOI now if they didn't intend to order them.


I don't subscribe to the #FakeNews view on this, but let's be clear, there would be no "PR hit" if IAG simply said nothing and let this LOI quietly expire. None whatsoever.


Like the A380's of Kingfisher Amedeo, Virgin Atlantic...? #FakeNews :roll:
 
RandWkop
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:57 pm

Stitch wrote:
BoeingVista wrote:
Its possible, but I think you agree that this is not a normal IAG order process which is long winded with public announcements of what aircraft it is asking for RFP's from OEM's. If the board gave an authority for an adhoc LOI then it will have been on IAG's terms though obviously Boeing boosters are never going to admit this. Clearly IAG did not need to do a snap order here, Boeing needed to change the narrative which they successfully did and that would have come at a financial cost to Boeing.


Well Airbus' Christian Scherer claims IAG never issued an RFP so it might have been a case where Boeing and IAG were discussing an exclusive. Which to me means more that IAG wanted to diversify it's fleet between both OEMs and not play Airbus and Boeing off against each other with the goal of whomever offered the "best" deal would win. Let us not forget that IAG did at one time consider 787s for Iberia even though they were only operated Airbus aircraft. That being said, Airbus have claimed they will work hard to get IAG to never consummate the LoI and instead order Airbus so we shall see what is going on.

I still don't see why Boeing has to gut themselves for a potential 200 frame order considering they have a backlog of 4500 frames already that will take close to a decade to deliver. Either Boeing is going to fix the MAX or not. If they do, then soon enough the grounding will fade away just as it did for the 787. And if they don't, well then it doesn't matter how many airlines sign LoIs for how many MAX.



Then again, if Boeing really did offer to see these planes for next to nothing, better to let Airbus win the order away by selling them for literally nothing. :silly:

Carsten Spohr has also said the MAX will be considered for LH group airlines. So we may see another win for Boing in Airbus territory. Even FR has ordered Airbus through a subsidiary and the world didn't stop turning.
 
smartplane
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:58 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
BoeingVista wrote:
The IAG deal is good business for Boeing & IAG


I'd say its great business for both (maybe marginally less great for Boeing).

For Boeing: Assurance on the MAX - you could see quite a few smaller airlines order over the back of this year based on IAG having vetted and being confident in the type.

For IAG: You got to imagine its come at a pretty keen price so in itself is a great deal - and its going to keep Airbus honest in the future too.

May turn out the deal is for Boeing Capital to lease the 737's to IAG in tranches of say 10. Boeing Capital then on-sells to established leasing companies, and/or creates a secondary market.
 
Texas77
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:10 pm

Andy33 wrote:
talonone wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
Absolutely astonished by this IAG order. Absolitely out of nowhere, seemingly.

I don't see these going to BA but I could absolutely see EI replacing their A320, 752 and A321 fleet with 738/A321XLR. Also Level and Vuelling. Struggling to see IB going 737 for the narrowbody fleet but stranger things have happened.

Vueling is a all Airbus fleet. Iberia also. Level is just a name flying with Iberia AOC! Are Lingus is also an all Airbus fleet. The only IAG member with a mixt fleet is BA. Just imagine the cost to introduce a new plane type in 4 airlines. Pilot's training and rate types, spare parts, mechanics, ground handling, etc...
Is just a move to keep Airbus on their toes, and to give a confidence vote for the so much hurted 737Max program.

I do wish people would read the thread before commenting.
Willie Walsh, IAG's CEO, said at the show, as the LOI was being announced, that these planes would be used by Vueling, Level, and BA's Gatwick operation. If he had meant that they would actually be used by Iberia, Aer Lingus, or BA Heathrow, he'd have said so.
Level do not operate all their flights using Iberia's AOC, just the long-haul ones out of Spain. They also have a French AOC (formerly used by BA Openskies) used for long haul flights from Paris, and an Austrian one used for shorthaul flights from Vienna and Amsterdam.
There's a good precedent in Europe for converting an entire sizable airline from one plane model to another from a different manufacturer, when EasyJet changed from an all-737NG fleet to an all A320series fleet. European airline managers know as a result that it can be done, how it was done, and roughly how much it would cost.
Vueling have 122 A320 series planes, Level have 7, and BA Gatwick 30. An order (ok, LOI) for 200 planes isn't unreasonable to replace 159 planes when two of the three fleets are expanding rapidly. BA Gatwick's planes are all leased, and will fall due for replacement in the early to mid 2020s. Vueling's planes are mostly leased. Some are quite new, and thanks to IAG's internal standardisation policy, an A320 series plane can be moved from one of its operating fleets to another in less than a week, including seat swap if required, and a repaint., and be indistinguishable from planes delivered new to the receiving fleet. So it entirely possible that those Iberia, Aer Lingus, and BA Heathrow A320ceo series planes that will fall due for replacement and don't already have A320neos on order for that purpose, will see cascaded Vueling Airbuses instead . The Paris Air Show actually saw new A320neo series orders for IAG - A321XLRs for Iberia and Aer Lingus, so there's clearly a commitment to keeping those two fleets as A320series.


well said and very rational, andy. I'm not so used to that here.

as for training cost, yes that is real. but to worry about the training cost on their NEXT order, in 2055, to replace the MAX? come on, no way they are worried about that. we might all be getting delivered to our destinations by amazon drones by then. the world changes too much in 30 years time to be thinking we need to have the right answer today on what we'll do then
 
Checklist787
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:19 pm

Texas77 wrote:
Andy33 wrote:
talonone wrote:
Vueling is a all Airbus fleet. Iberia also. Level is just a name flying with Iberia AOC! Are Lingus is also an all Airbus fleet. The only IAG member with a mixt fleet is BA. Just imagine the cost to introduce a new plane type in 4 airlines. Pilot's training and rate types, spare parts, mechanics, ground handling, etc...
Is just a move to keep Airbus on their toes, and to give a confidence vote for the so much hurted 737Max program.

I do wish people would read the thread before commenting.
Willie Walsh, IAG's CEO, said at the show, as the LOI was being announced, that these planes would be used by Vueling, Level, and BA's Gatwick operation. If he had meant that they would actually be used by Iberia, Aer Lingus, or BA Heathrow, he'd have said so.
Level do not operate all their flights using Iberia's AOC, just the long-haul ones out of Spain. They also have a French AOC (formerly used by BA Openskies) used for long haul flights from Paris, and an Austrian one used for shorthaul flights from Vienna and Amsterdam.
There's a good precedent in Europe for converting an entire sizable airline from one plane model to another from a different manufacturer, when EasyJet changed from an all-737NG fleet to an all A320series fleet. European airline managers know as a result that it can be done, how it was done, and roughly how much it would cost.
Vueling have 122 A320 series planes, Level have 7, and BA Gatwick 30. An order (ok, LOI) for 200 planes isn't unreasonable to replace 159 planes when two of the three fleets are expanding rapidly. BA Gatwick's planes are all leased, and will fall due for replacement in the early to mid 2020s. Vueling's planes are mostly leased. Some are quite new, and thanks to IAG's internal standardisation policy, an A320 series plane can be moved from one of its operating fleets to another in less than a week, including seat swap if required, and a repaint., and be indistinguishable from planes delivered new to the receiving fleet. So it entirely possible that those Iberia, Aer Lingus, and BA Heathrow A320ceo series planes that will fall due for replacement and don't already have A320neos on order for that purpose, will see cascaded Vueling Airbuses instead . The Paris Air Show actually saw new A320neo series orders for IAG - A321XLRs for Iberia and Aer Lingus, so there's clearly a commitment to keeping those two fleets as A320series.


well said and very rational, andy. I'm not so used to that here.

as for training cost, yes that is real. but to worry about the training cost on their NEXT order, in 2055, to replace the MAX? come on, no way they are worried about that. we might all be getting delivered to our destinations by amazon drones by then. the world changes too much in 30 years time to be thinking we need to have the right answer today on what we'll do then


Wow two most rational and intelligent comments. It goes up the level. :thumbsup:

Otherwise there is also Air Canada which has grown to a fleet of 737 MAX when it had the A32Xceo's
 
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Stitch
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:24 pm

smartplane wrote:
May turn out the deal is for Boeing Capital to lease the 737's to IAG in tranches of say 10. Boeing Capital then on-sells to established leasing companies, and/or creates a secondary market.


I know IAG airlines are leasing some of the frames in their respective fleets, but are they being leased direct from the OEMs or are they all from non-OEM lessors?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Boeing News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:35 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
I don't understand why people think IAG would take the PR hit from announcing a MAX LOI now if they didn't intend to order them.


I don't subscribe to the #FakeNews view on this, but let's be clear, there would be no "PR hit" if IAG simply said nothing and let this LOI quietly expire. None whatsoever.


Like the A380's of Kingfisher Amedeo, Virgin Atlantic...? #FakeNews :roll:


Which part of "I don't subscribe to..." are you struggling with? :roll:
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