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LJ
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:06 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
OA940 wrote:
That's great to hear. Also the A330neo looks so hot in VS colours. Let's hope we see an airline order for the A220 now ;D


I'm surprised nobody has mentioned ALC's order for 50 A220-300s: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 21xlr.html


It was mentioned in reply 20.

BlueSky1976 wrote:
Air Lease orders 23 A321LR + 27 A321XLR + 50 A220-300.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:09 pm

T4thH wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
OA940 wrote:
That's great to hear. Also the A330neo looks so hot in VS colours. Let's hope we see an airline order for the A220 now ;D


I'm surprised nobody has mentioned ALC's order for 50 A220-300s: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 21xlr.html

Le Bourget – Air Lease Corporation (ALC) (NYSE: AL), the Los Angeles-based aircraft leasing company, has signed a Letter of Intent (LoI) for 100 Airbus aircraft, including for the first time 50 A220-300s and 27 A321XLRs.



Please check post 20 in this thread:
Air Lease orders 23 A321LR + 27 A321XLR + 50 A220-300.

Everyone is just happy, to have seen the first A220-300 order, which is a little bi unexpected (as by lease company)and than also an according high one with 50. But this is still just a MOU (so still not a firm order).


Oops, looks like I missed it. My mistake!
 
sabby
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:09 pm

finnishway wrote:
sabby wrote:
I can see Finnair and SAS order some A321XLR for Asia routes.


Finnair will most likely order A321XLR and they are interested in it, but not for their Asia routes.

Just a few weeks ago AY's CEO said in the Finnish media that using narrowbody aircraft on the routes to China for example is not smart thing to from business point of view. This is because Russian overfly rights cost are same for every aircraft despite the number of passengers. So why fly narrowbody and pay the same price, when you can fly widebody and in the case of Finnair probably fill even more seats than narrowbody can.

AY is looking A321XLR for example more flights to North America. Toronto and Boston are possibilities for this kind of routes.


Good point about the Russian overfly cost. But they don't need it for India. I think they could add a few more destinations in India and be a gateway to Europe. Using narrow body on both legs would give them cost advantage and therefore better price than others while still making profits. They can make a few seasonal routes in Thailand like Krabi/Phuket regular using the XLR in off season.
 
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:19 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
T4thH wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned ALC's order for 50 A220-300s: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 21xlr.html



Please check post 20 in this thread:
Air Lease orders 23 A321LR + 27 A321XLR + 50 A220-300.

Everyone is just happy, to have seen the first A220-300 order, which is a little bi unexpected (as by lease company)and than also an according high one with 50. But this is still just a MOU (so still not a firm order).


Oops, looks like I missed it. My mistake!

Hey, I mis-posted in another thread as I'm still not yet fully thinking of A220 as Airbus. As I posted (and deleted), I'm happy for an A220 order. But as much as I should have more faith in Udvar-Hazy, the last A380 lease order has me wondering how firm an order this really is.

I'm a Pratt fan. Another hundred PW1500G in service would be great. But until I hear of placement, I shall be skeptical.

Lightsaber
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Cedric13
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:20 pm

MEA is officially the a321XLR launch customer (confirmed by airbus) as the airline has ordered 4 aircraft that are not conversions bringing their a321 order to 15 including 11 a321 neo. They also have 4 a330-900 aircraft on order.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 1xlrs.html
 
Asiaflyer
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:27 pm

Nine A220-300 will eventuelly go to David Neelemans new airline.

From Reuters:

17-Jun-2019 16:14:34 - GECAS AND DAVID NEELEMAN AGREE TO A LETTER OF INTENT FOR NINE A220-300 AIRCRAFT
17-Jun-2019 16:16:16 - GECAS - CO & DAVID NEELEMAN’S NEW AIRLINE, AGREED TO A LOI FOR PURCHASE, LEASEBACK OF NINE A220-300 AIRCRAFT WITH DELIVERIES SCHEDULED IN 2021 & 2022
SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
 
T4thH
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:28 pm

And as already clarified in an earlier post in this thread:
Air Lease orders 23 A321LR + 27 A321XLR + 50 A220-300.


The 23 A321LR are "only" A321 Neo.and not the LR version.
(as a LR version ist just a "preparation for LR" and jet can be used as standard A321Neo else, order upgrade to LR can be easily changed later on, short before start of production.Most will order/change order late). Instead of 2 additional tanks, 3 additional tanks can be placed (or non).

An XLR is different, this is a strongly modified bird.
 
OlafW
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:29 pm

sabby wrote:

Good point about the Russian overfly cost. But they don't need it for India. I think they could add a few more destinations in India and be a gateway to Europe. Using narrow body on both legs would give them cost advantage and therefore better price than others while still making profits.


India routes from Finland don't have the same incentive for the passenger compared to Far East routes. Grabbing two totally random city pairs, I played through a routing from MAD and FRA, to DEL and ITM, with stop and without stop in HEL. The DEL routes are 10 and 12,5 % longer when connecting in HEL, but going to ITM, the route has the same length or less than 1% additional length. That's why Finnair's "Short route" concept to East Asia works, South and South East Asia not so much
 
T4thH
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:36 pm

Asiaflyer wrote:
Nine A220-300 will eventuelly go to David Neelemans new airline.

From Reuters:

17-Jun-2019 16:14:34 - GECAS AND DAVID NEELEMAN AGREE TO A LETTER OF INTENT FOR NINE A220-300 AIRCRAFT
17-Jun-2019 16:16:16 - GECAS - CO & DAVID NEELEMAN’S NEW AIRLINE, AGREED TO A LOI FOR PURCHASE, LEASEBACK OF NINE A220-300 AIRCRAFT WITH DELIVERIES SCHEDULED IN 2021 & 2022


???Moxy airlines???
Already 60 A220 have been ordered last year? Are these 50 now additional one or are these 50 part of the 60????
Two many ???? for me now.


Nice, seems now to be confirmed, that David Neeleman's new Airline (Moxy) is real (and not as already some has postulated a ghost, who will never start and later on just evaporate to nothing than bits and bytes in the INet).
 
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Miami
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:39 pm

Wonder when AA’s announcement will come.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
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Polot
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:42 pm

T4thH wrote:
Asiaflyer wrote:
Nine A220-300 will eventuelly go to David Neelemans new airline.

From Reuters:

17-Jun-2019 16:14:34 - GECAS AND DAVID NEELEMAN AGREE TO A LETTER OF INTENT FOR NINE A220-300 AIRCRAFT
17-Jun-2019 16:16:16 - GECAS - CO & DAVID NEELEMAN’S NEW AIRLINE, AGREED TO A LOI FOR PURCHASE, LEASEBACK OF NINE A220-300 AIRCRAFT WITH DELIVERIES SCHEDULED IN 2021 & 2022


???Moxy airlines???
Already 60 A220 have been ordered last year? Are these 50 now additional one or are these 50 part of the 60????
Two many ???? for me now.


Nice, seems now to be confirmed, that David Neeleman's new Airline (Moxy) is real (and not as already some has postulated a ghost, who will never start and later on just evaporate to nothing than bits and bytes in the INet).

Note this is GECAS not ALC. it sounds like GECAS is purchasing 9 A223s (was Moxy order ever firmed?) and leasing them back. Unclear if this is new order or purchasing from Moxy’s original order/LOI/whatever it is now.
Last edited by Polot on Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
fcogafa
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:42 pm

It reads like an LOI for GECAS to purchase 9 of the current order and lease them back.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:43 pm

I think it will be very telling for this airshow that Airbus didn't launch the A321XLR with "X amount of orders and commitments" in their press release and on social media.

This airshow will not be about the orders and who has "won the show".
 
YIMBY
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:50 pm

OlafW wrote:
sabby wrote:

Good point about the Russian overfly cost. But they don't need it for India. I think they could add a few more destinations in India and be a gateway to Europe. Using narrow body on both legs would give them cost advantage and therefore better price than others while still making profits.


India routes from Finland don't have the same incentive for the passenger compared to Far East routes. Grabbing two totally random city pairs, I played through a routing from MAD and FRA, to DEL and ITM, with stop and without stop in HEL. The DEL routes are 10 and 12,5 % longer when connecting in HEL, but going to ITM, the route has the same length or less than 1% additional length. That's why Finnair's "Short route" concept to East Asia works, South and South East Asia not so much


HEL is close to the midpoint between India and North America, and XLR would be the most perfect plane in both legs. India-Scandinavia and Russia-America connections might add volume. Nevertheless, ARN is not much worse so competition may be expected. Scheduling may be challenging.

Expecting 321XLR order by AY and SK. (Norwegian, too, if they had money for it)
 
T4thH
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:54 pm

Polot wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Asiaflyer wrote:
Nine A220-300 will eventuelly go to David Neelemans new airline.

From Reuters:

17-Jun-2019 16:14:34 - GECAS AND DAVID NEELEMAN AGREE TO A LETTER OF INTENT FOR NINE A220-300 AIRCRAFT
17-Jun-2019 16:16:16 - GECAS - CO & DAVID NEELEMAN’S NEW AIRLINE, AGREED TO A LOI FOR PURCHASE, LEASEBACK OF NINE A220-300 AIRCRAFT WITH DELIVERIES SCHEDULED IN 2021 & 2022


???Moxy airlines???
Already 60 A220 have been ordered last year? Are these 50 now additional one or are these 50 part of the 60????
Two many ???? for me now.


Nice, seems now to be confirmed, that David Neeleman's new Airline (Moxy) is real (and not as already some has postulated a ghost, who will never start and later on just evaporate to nothing than bits and bytes in the INet).

Note this is GECAS not ALC. it sounds like GECAS is purchasing 9 A223s (was Moxy order ever firmed?) and leasing them back. Unclear if this is new order or purchasing from Moxy’s original order/LOI/whatever it is now.


Ah correct, my mistake. And yes, the 60 x A220 Moxy order (as also the JetBlue order) have been firmed in the last week of 2018!
Source in German. "Festauftrag" means "firmed order".
https://www.flugrevue.de/zivil/uebersicht-zivilflugzeug-bestellungen-im-jahr-2018/
Airbus A220-300 - "Moxy" (60)
Letzte Dezemberwoche 2018
Eine neue US-Airline - Codename "Moxy" -, deren Gründung von David Neelman organisiert wird, hat in der letzten Dezemberwoche 2018 einen Festauftrag für 60 A220-300 erteilt. Sie werden im US-Werk Mobile gebaut.
 
fcogafa
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:56 pm

So 12 firm orders on the first day, 8 x A330NEO for VIR and 4 x A321XLR for MEA?
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:57 pm

Miami wrote:
Wonder when AA’s announcement will come.


Airbus has another press conference scheduled for tomorrow at 10:30am (Paris time) so maybe there's a chance then.
@DadCelo
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:06 pm

Cedric13 wrote:
MEA is officially the a321XLR launch customer (confirmed by airbus) as the airline has ordered 4 aircraft that are not conversions bringing their a321 order to 15 including 11 a321 neo. They also have 4 a330-900 aircraft on order.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 1xlrs.html


It is just than in May O&D spreadsheet MEA has 15 A321neo on order. So this order is not additional to that. Either MEA had ordered the 4 XLR already and this is only the announcement, or it is a conversion.
 
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Polot
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:07 pm

AA may not necessarily announce anything at PAS. They are big enough that they don’t really have to to get attention. Airbus may push them to do so though.
 
fcogafa
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:18 pm

fcogafa wrote:
So 12 firm orders on the first day, 8 x A330NEO for VIR and 4 x A321XLR for MEA?


OK, with the MEA info, make that 8 new firm orders today then.....
 
Bricktop
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:21 pm

Children, children, can we keep the thread to orders and not speculation about specs or who may buy what to fly where? FFS, there are enough threads to post that stuff. When I saw 120+ posts I thought Airbus must be kicking some real ass. Nah, it's just a.net being a.net. :roll:
 
T4thH
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:21 pm

OK, the 50 A220-300, "ordered" (MOU) by Air Lease are for Air Baltic....
OK...Air Baltic has still 30 options for the A220.

Very good news - direct New York flights are coming closer. In addition 50 Airbus A220-300 order was announced today during #PAS2019. Happy for @airBaltic future.

https://twitter.com/Gaussm/status/1140552267210383360
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:21 pm

scbriml wrote:
gokmengs wrote:
Congrats to Airbus for the orders and the launch of XLR, however is it me or the EIS for XLR is a bit longer than expected, usually variants for airbus takes shorter time to EIS, and we all knew they been working on this for a while we are looking at 3.5 years, thats a long time even for aviation. What do you guys think?


I would imagine the timing is not accidental - probably optimised to reduce conversion of existing A321neo orders while being available before any NMA offering.


Agreed. This timeline makes sense for a variety of reasons, both technical and strategic.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Polot
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:24 pm

T4thH wrote:
OK, the 50 A220-300, "ordered" (MOU) by Air Lease are for Air Baltic....
OK...Air Baltic has still 30 options for the A220.

Very good news - direct New York flights are coming closer. In addition 50 Airbus A220-300 order was announced today during #PAS2019. Happy for @airBaltic future.

https://twitter.com/Gaussm/status/1140552267210383360

Are we sure it’s for AirBaltic? That is huge expansion for them considering they still have 30 more left to be delivered as well.

I read it more as the CEO saying AirBaltic has a ‘popular’ aircraft.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:27 pm

Polot wrote:
Are we sure it’s for AirBaltic? That is huge expansion for them considering they still have 30 more left to be delivered as well.

I read it more as the CEO saying AirBaltic has a ‘popular’ aircraft.


Are Air Baltic not MRO on CSeries too? That is probably where he is coming from.

[50 onto the previous order for Air Baltic is unsustainable IMO.]
 
sabby
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:31 pm

OlafW wrote:
sabby wrote:

Good point about the Russian overfly cost. But they don't need it for India. I think they could add a few more destinations in India and be a gateway to Europe. Using narrow body on both legs would give them cost advantage and therefore better price than others while still making profits.


India routes from Finland don't have the same incentive for the passenger compared to Far East routes. Grabbing two totally random city pairs, I played through a routing from MAD and FRA, to DEL and ITM, with stop and without stop in HEL. The DEL routes are 10 and 12,5 % longer when connecting in HEL, but going to ITM, the route has the same length or less than 1% additional length. That's why Finnair's "Short route" concept to East Asia works, South and South East Asia not so much


DEL is already served by AY A330. I was talking about other cities like CCU/HYD/BLR/MAA etc. It may add another 30-60 minutes for western europe compared to ME3/EU3 but they would be able to compete more aggressively at lower cost sue to narrow body. Most of central and southern europe along with nordic countries would be similar duration as other 1 stops. Also, as another user pointed out, India-US/Canada traffic via HEL could be nicely done at lower cost. They can't compete against the non-stops from BOM/DEL of course but AY was never about catching premium traffic on most routes.

@MODS can we have another sticky thread to discuss about repercussions and possible routes for all the orders and aircraft announced at PAS ? That way we can keep these threads clean.
Last edited by sabby on Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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crimsonchin
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:43 pm

Miami wrote:
Wonder when AA’s announcement will come.


What is AA supposed to be ordering?
 
Ishrion
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:44 pm

crimsonchin wrote:
Miami wrote:
Wonder when AA’s announcement will come.


What is AA supposed to be ordering?


Rumored to be A321XLR
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:52 pm

hibtastic wrote:
The A321XLR is going to a pretty compelling option for airlines. More space for baggage / cargo than the LR version too. Ideal aircraft for Icelandair I’d say.


I would like for Icelandair to order them. Icelandair could again go for being a one type airline. The A321XLR has the range to do the longer flights and the economy for the shorter ones. For very thin routes they could add a few A320neo.
I do not expect Icelandair to make a move now.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:57 pm

As interesting as the XLR is, it still builds on the same basic wing as the first sub 80t A321s. With a MTOW of 101t, the XLR is going to cruise initially at FL290-300, at best ending up at FL350 with higher payloads. There is a significant efficiency potential to a revised/better wing. A modern airliner should have initial cruise capability at around FL350 at gross weight.
Last edited by arcticcruiser on Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Strato2
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:11 pm

Airbus stock hit ATH today.
 
fcogafa
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:16 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Airbus stock hit ATH today.


What has Athens got to do with it?
Last edited by fcogafa on Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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OA940
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:16 pm

The A220 orders seem to be interesting. If the ALC orders are indeed for airbaltic that means that their planned subsidiary is gonna be big, because there's no way they're gonna take them all up. Also for Moxy 69 planes seems like a lot, but if anyone can launch an airline its David Neeleman so I'll keep the faith for now
A350/CSeries = bae
 
StTim
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:21 pm

I am presuming that ATH is not Athens but All Time High.
 
junlinwong94
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:21 pm

fcogafa wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Airbus stock hit ATH today.


What has Athens got to do with it?



Think it means "All Time High"
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:30 pm

fcogafa wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Airbus stock hit ATH today.


What has Athens got to do with it?


ATH = All Time High
Tarriffs are taxes. Taxation is theft. You are not entitled to anything.
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Olddog
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:40 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
I think it will be very telling for this airshow that Airbus didn't launch the A321XLR with "X amount of orders and commitments" in their press release and on social media.

This airshow will not be about the orders and who has "won the show".


Maybe you should wait the end of the trade show before drawing conclusions?
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
Bricktop
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:44 pm

Olddog wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
I think it will be very telling for this airshow that Airbus didn't launch the A321XLR with "X amount of orders and commitments" in their press release and on social media.

This airshow will not be about the orders and who has "won the show".


Maybe you should wait the end of the trade show before drawing conclusions?

Boeing is the equivalent of the Thai Women's World Cup soccer team. Airbus ironically is the US Womens team. :yes:
 
Amiga500
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:47 pm

fcogafa wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Airbus stock hit ATH today.


What has Athens got to do with it?


The Greeks told Airbus that it is silly for Airbus to be afraid of making the A321 XLR fly any higher in-case its wings would melt just like Icarus - everyone in Greece knows Icarus made his wings of wax and feathers, not Al2024.

That dastardly lot in Toulouse decided to hit back, launching a 1000 aircraft raid over Greece, dropping thousands of tons of stock on Athens from 30,000ft (and not an inch higher).

The banking crisis has nothing on this. With stock falling almost continuously, the bottom has fallen out of the Greek market.

The EU are already holding an emergency summit to discuss it.


I think that was it... yeah, pretty sure that's the jist of it - maybe one or two details are a bit off but you get the picture.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:59 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Airbus stock hit ATH today.


What has Athens got to do with it?


The Greeks told Airbus that it is silly for Airbus to be afraid of making the A321 XLR fly any higher in-case its wings would melt just like Icarus - everyone in Greece knows Icarus made his wings of wax and feathers, not Al2024.

That dastardly lot in Toulouse decided to hit back, launching a 1000 aircraft raid over Greece, dropping thousands of tons of stock on Athens from 30,000ft (and not an inch higher).

The banking crisis has nothing on this. With stock falling almost continuously, the bottom has fallen out of the Greek market.

The EU are already holding an emergency summit to discuss it.


I think that was it... yeah, pretty sure that's the jist of it - maybe one or two details are a bit off but you get the picture.

Well played. :thumbsup: I laughed even though your post and this reply are soon to be deleted.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:11 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
I think it will be very telling for this airshow that Airbus didn't launch the A321XLR with "X amount of orders and commitments" in their press release and on social media.

This airshow will not be about the orders and who has "won the show".


actually there was talked about 200 XLR on this show. I think it will mostly be declared conversions or perhaps some more MoU.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:14 pm

Bricktop wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
fcogafa wrote:

What has Athens got to do with it?


The Greeks told Airbus that it is silly for Airbus to be afraid of making the A321 XLR fly any higher in-case its wings would melt just like Icarus - everyone in Greece knows Icarus made his wings of wax and feathers, not Al2024.

That dastardly lot in Toulouse decided to hit back, launching a 1000 aircraft raid over Greece, dropping thousands of tons of stock on Athens from 30,000ft (and not an inch higher).

The banking crisis has nothing on this. With stock falling almost continuously, the bottom has fallen out of the Greek market.

The EU are already holding an emergency summit to discuss it.


I think that was it... yeah, pretty sure that's the jist of it - maybe one or two details are a bit off but you get the picture.

Well played. :thumbsup: I laughed even though your post and this reply are soon to be deleted.


I hope that jokes are on the allowed list.
 
T4thH
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:42 pm

OA940 wrote:
The A220 orders seem to be interesting. If the ALC orders are indeed for airbaltic that means that their planned subsidiary is gonna be big, because there's no way they're gonna take them all up. Also for Moxy 69 planes seems like a lot, but if anyone can launch an airline its David Neeleman so I'll keep the faith for now

Regarding Air Baltic: If you verify the source in detail, (this was "Fiegerfaust" on Twitter), than it is clear, it was wrong. Regarding 69 for the new airline of David: Thes are still only 60 jets. Of them 9 have been sold to a lease company and than leased back by the new airline. This is a standard procedure, regular seen.
 
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Momo1435
Posts: 918
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:47 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
I think it will be very telling for this airshow that Airbus didn't launch the A321XLR with "X amount of orders and commitments" in their press release and on social media.

This airshow will not be about the orders and who has "won the show".


actually there was talked about 200 XLR on this show. I think it will mostly be declared conversions or perhaps some more MoU.

There's an clear difference between talk and boosting about the number of orders in all publications.

Airbus knows perfectly how they should launch this version of the A321 with everything going on in the industry right now. But it's pretty clear from this thread that not everybody has taken notice.

Good job Airbus.
 
leyland1989
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:47 pm

Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:01 pm

I'm a little confused here,
Correct me if I am wrong, my understandings are follow;
the A321LR is just a current production high MTOW variant of A321Neo with extra ACTs that can be converted back to a regular A321Neo if needed.

The A321XLR is a permanent modification of the current A321Neo with larger (or extra) permanent centre fuel tanks + some other minor modifications which is a separate variant that cannot be converted back into a regular A321Neo.


If this is the case, I can see A321LR still has its own niche and will still be produced for those who want to have greater flexibility within their fleet.
Airbus:319,320,332,333,343,345,346,359,388
Boeing: 717,734,738,753,74R,742,743,744,74E,748,763,772,773,77E,77L,77W,788,789
Misc:AT5,CN1,CNJ,CR2,CR7,CR9,DH8,ER4,ERD,E70,E75,E90,M11,S20
 
United857
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:37 am

Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:18 pm

leyland1989 wrote:
I'm a little confused here,
Correct me if I am wrong, my understandings are follow;
the A321LR is just a current production high MTOW variant of A321Neo with extra ACTs that can be converted back to a regular A321Neo if needed.

The A321XLR is a permanent modification of the current A321Neo with larger (or extra) permanent centre fuel tanks + some other minor modifications which is a separate variant that cannot be converted back into a regular A321Neo.


If this is the case, I can see A321LR still has its own niche and will still be produced for those who want to have greater flexibility within their fleet.

That's pretty much the difference between the XLR and LR. More specifically, the LR uses up to 3 ACTs the size of a LD3-45 container each and are basically just like cargo containers sitting in the cargo hold that can be removed if they are no longer needed. The problem with this approach is that there is a lot of wasted space around the contour of the cargo hold, causing the LR to lose up to 3 full cargo container positions if you want to use it at its maximum range TATL.

The XLR rectifies this by permanently sealing 2 cargo container positions in the aft cargo hold all the way to the outer fuselage, allowing not just the traditional cargo space to be used for fuel but also the space around the regular cargo hold contours as well. This frees up 1 cargo container position while further increasing fuel capacity beyond the 3 ACT version of the LR.
A319 A320 A321 A333 A343 A346 A388 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B748 B752 B764 B772 B77L B77W B788 CRJ2 E145 E17S E190 MD88 MD90
AA AC B6 CA CX CZ DL EK FM HU KA LH LX MU NH TK UA US
 
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OA940
Posts: 1842
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:38 pm

T4thH wrote:
OA940 wrote:
The A220 orders seem to be interesting. If the ALC orders are indeed for airbaltic that means that their planned subsidiary is gonna be big, because there's no way they're gonna take them all up. Also for Moxy 69 planes seems like a lot, but if anyone can launch an airline its David Neeleman so I'll keep the faith for now

Regarding Air Baltic: If you verify the source in detail, (this was "Fiegerfaust" on Twitter), than it is clear, it was wrong. Regarding 69 for the new airline of David: Thes are still only 60 jets. Of them 9 have been sold to a lease company and than leased back by the new airline. This is a standard procedure, regular seen.


Ah. Sorry I didn't actually bother to read anything further and sources etc. If it's from Fiegerfaust then yeah I don't believe it for a second. Regarding Moxy I guess I missed the part where they clarified it wasn't a topup. Thanks for the clarification
A350/CSeries = bae
 
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tlecam
Posts: 1402
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:45 pm

I think the VS 339 order makes sense as a transatlantic workhorse. I've flown their 789 from BOS to LHR and from JFK to LHR. I enjoyed both premium economy and the upper class experience. It seems that VS has adapted Delta's rationale that the 789 is overkill for those routes. A 787-10 could have worked as well, but I"m guessing that the economics (purchase price plus operating expense) favored the 339. The 787-10 likely would hold more seats (DL has roughly 280 in their 339s with 29 J class; using UA as my proxy, the 787-10 holds 318, and that's with 44 J class seats), but may also require additional flight attendants and I think that DL and VS will continue to focus on frequency between the US and LHR/LGW, rather than big planes.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
Gulfstream500
Posts: 295
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:30 am

Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:46 pm

Asiaflyer wrote:
Nine A220-300 will eventuelly go to David Neelemans new airline.

From Reuters:

17-Jun-2019 16:14:34 - GECAS AND DAVID NEELEMAN AGREE TO A LETTER OF INTENT FOR NINE A220-300 AIRCRAFT
17-Jun-2019 16:16:16 - GECAS - CO & DAVID NEELEMAN’S NEW AIRLINE, AGREED TO A LOI FOR PURCHASE, LEASEBACK OF NINE A220-300 AIRCRAFT WITH DELIVERIES SCHEDULED IN 2021 & 2022


When will they be delivered? EIS?
Can someone please start a wikipedia list of failed startup airlines? I am interested in seeing just how long it would be...
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17684
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Paris Air Show 2019: Airbus News and Orders Thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:51 pm

United857 wrote:
leyland1989 wrote:
I'm a little confused here,
Correct me if I am wrong, my understandings are follow;
the A321LR is just a current production high MTOW variant of A321Neo with extra ACTs that can be converted back to a regular A321Neo if needed.

The A321XLR is a permanent modification of the current A321Neo with larger (or extra) permanent centre fuel tanks + some other minor modifications which is a separate variant that cannot be converted back into a regular A321Neo.


If this is the case, I can see A321LR still has its own niche and will still be produced for those who want to have greater flexibility within their fleet.

That's pretty much the difference between the XLR and LR. More specifically, the LR uses up to 3 ACTs the size of a LD3-45 container each and are basically just like cargo containers sitting in the cargo hold that can be removed if they are no longer needed. The problem with this approach is that there is a lot of wasted space around the contour of the cargo hold, causing the LR to lose up to 3 full cargo container positions if you want to use it at its maximum range TATL.

The XLR rectifies this by permanently sealing 2 cargo container positions in the aft cargo hold all the way to the outer fuselage, allowing not just the traditional cargo space to be used for fuel but also the space around the regular cargo hold contours as well. This frees up 1 cargo container position while further increasing fuel capacity beyond the 3 ACT version of the LR.

To expand, each ACT is heavy. Sealing off permanently the cargo hold is lighter. Each ACT also has a significant weight of fuel that must be considered unusable. The permanent tank should have much less unusable fuel than 2 ACTs. There is also an avoidance of duplicating certain plumbing, fuel level, venting valves, and other hardware that saves cost and weight.

So a permanent tank should save 500kg or so in structural weight vs. 3 ACTs (probably more) and should allow at least 500kg more fuel to be usable ,(vs. 3 ACTs). Plus, more volume.

Downside is there is a lot of paperwork to complete and certification as a new fuel system must be tested.

If an airline regularly needs one ACT or more, the xLR makes sense. Otherwise it doesn't as it adds weight (including more unusable fuel) and takes away two cargo positions.

Lightsaber
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