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Polot
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:55 pm

iceberg210 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Greetings to Embraer.
2 additional E-195E2 to Binter Canarias.
https://twitter.com/SpieleWERT/status/1140912394312585216

Is this the first E2 order or did I miss another?

Good to hear we finally have a European launch customer. Is Winderoe expanding? I expected a top off order by now. (Of only one or two E2, but hey, they are the first operator).

Lightsaber

Sadly looks like it,

So far for Embraer
2 E195E2 Binter Canarias
2 E175 Fuji Dream Airlines
20 E175SC United Airlines

Unlike last year where they treaded water, unless Embraer picks something up big between now and the end of the show feels like they're going backwards.

Big orders are going to be in a holding pattern until Boeing purchase is complete, especially as there is no pressing reason (ie full backlog) to rush right now.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:58 pm

iceberg210 wrote:
https://www.skiesmag.com/press-releases/viking-signs-sales-agreement-for-next-generation-cl-515-aerial-firefighter/
Republic of Indonesia launches the next generation CL415 (the CL515) with an order for 6 to Viking Aircraft.
Couple Dash 8 sales and except for Airbus Viking might have the most exciting show this year lol


This is awesome news. The CL515 should be an excellent multi-role platform. Very happy for Viking Air. I'm hoping we'll see the CL-515 get more orders around the world in the future. It's almost a certainty.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:00 pm

Any word as to whether the Fuji Dream Airlines E75s are E1s or E2s?
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:03 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Any word as to whether the Fuji Dream Airlines E75s are E1s or E2s?

E1's
https://embraer.com/global/en/news?slug ... raer-fleet
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:06 pm

iceberg210 wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
Any word as to whether the Fuji Dream Airlines E75s are E1s or E2s?

E1's
https://embraer.com/global/en/news?slug ... raer-fleet

Just a little FYI “E1” is not an official term (it is just E170/E175/E190/E195) so if you ever see Embraer omit E2 they are talking about the ‘E1’.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:34 pm

Polot wrote:
iceberg210 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Is this the first E2 order or did I miss another?

Good to hear we finally have a European launch customer. Is Winderoe expanding? I expected a top off order by now. (Of only one or two E2, but hey, they are the first operator).

Lightsaber

Sadly looks like it,

So far for Embraer
2 E195E2 Binter Canarias
2 E175 Fuji Dream Airlines
20 E175SC United Airlines

Unlike last year where they treaded water, unless Embraer picks something up big between now and the end of the show feels like they're going backwards.

Big orders are going to be in a holding pattern until Boeing purchase is complete, especially as there is no pressing reason (ie full backlog) to rush right now.

Embraer has ghost slots for 2020, so there is already a pressing reason. Never stop selling. Customers do not wait much. Selling aircraft is like selling an aircraft seat by the airline, once the due date is missed, an opportunity to sell is (usually) lost.

Airlines have zero reason to rush to buy from anyone. Yet airlines are buying. KLM/AF and IAG are the two largest orders out there for the E2. (For expected 20 and 26 aircraft, respectively). Embraer needs a backlog to sell. At a minimum help Aircastle find customers for their 2020 deliveries; for having the lease companies unable to place creates an antagonistic situation.

The competing A220 orders have been small. 55 vs. 2, yet are enough to help sell for the next 12 months. Embraer cannot give up and wine about being a victim. Get back in the ring and sell! Maybe this is why all the great sales people I know drink like fish... One needs to forget failures and focus on the next sale. Embraer must quickly get total sales over 600. Profit Hunter is now 2 years old and didn't spike sales. The E2-175 needs the tiniest sale to keep alive; why isn't Embraer offering Winderoe a pair for a song? Always be selling or die is a business axiom for a reason.

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iceberg210
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:56 pm

lightsaber wrote:

The competing A220 orders have been small. 55 vs. 2, yet are enough to help sell for the next 12 months. Embraer cannot give up and wine about being a victim. Get back in the ring and sell! Maybe this is why all the great sales people I know drink like fish... One needs to forget failures and focus on the next sale. Embraer must quickly get total sales over 600. Profit Hunter is now 2 years old and didn't spike sales. The E2-175 needs the tiniest sale to keep alive; why isn't Embraer offering Winderoe a pair for a song? Always be selling or die is a business axiom for a reason.

Lightsaber



You would think they'd send 175E2 to Winderoe and maybe offer free conversions for Horizon and Fuji and anyone else who don't have scope issues for the 175E2. Although I remember you talked about how until there's a large order no one wants the risk of an orphaned fleet? Could it be the case that they might have made those offers but everyone has declined until they get a critical mass of orders to make folks feel like they aren't going to be stuck with an orphaned fleet? I don't know but I'd have to think they must have tried to give away some 175E2's just to get some in the market.
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:12 pm

iceberg210 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

The competing A220 orders have been small. 55 vs. 2, yet are enough to help sell for the next 12 months. Embraer cannot give up and wine about being a victim. Get back in the ring and sell! Maybe this is why all the great sales people I know drink like fish... One needs to forget failures and focus on the next sale. Embraer must quickly get total sales over 600. Profit Hunter is now 2 years old and didn't spike sales. The E2-175 needs the tiniest sale to keep alive; why isn't Embraer offering Winderoe a pair for a song? Always be selling or die is a business axiom for a reason.

Lightsaber



You would think they'd send 175E2 to Winderoe and maybe offer free conversions for Horizon and Fuji and anyone else who don't have scope issues for the 175E2. Although I remember you talked about how until there's a large order no one wants the risk of an orphaned fleet? Could it be the case that they might have made those offers but everyone has declined until they get a critical mass of orders to make folks feel like they aren't going to be stuck with an orphaned fleet? I don't know but I'd have to think they must have tried to give away some 175E2's just to get some in the market.

I'd like to think we would have heard about low/no cost conversions. I hadn't considered Horizon and Fuji, good points. Getting 3 small buyers would be enough to get them to Farnborough IMHO. That would make AF/KLM and IAG much easier sales.... I like your thinking.

Lightsaber

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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:13 pm

9K to buy a “double digit” number of all-electric Eviation Alice aircraft. Entry into service estimated in 2022, will be launch customer.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.c ... tomer.html
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:55 pm

Polot wrote:
iceberg210 wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
Any word as to whether the Fuji Dream Airlines E75s are E1s or E2s?

E1's
https://embraer.com/global/en/news?slug ... raer-fleet

Just a little FYI “E1” is not an official term (it is just E170/E175/E190/E195) so if you ever see Embraer omit E2 they are talking about the ‘E1’.


Thanks for the tip. :)
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:07 pm

It's starting to look like not designing the E175 E2 to conform to existing scope clauses in the U.S. was a serious mistake.

I'm a bit surprised by the lack of international E190/E195 E2 orders to date, though.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:39 pm

lightsaber wrote:
iceberg210 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

The competing A220 orders have been small. 55 vs. 2, yet are enough to help sell for the next 12 months. Embraer cannot give up and wine about being a victim. Get back in the ring and sell! Maybe this is why all the great sales people I know drink like fish... One needs to forget failures and focus on the next sale. Embraer must quickly get total sales over 600. Profit Hunter is now 2 years old and didn't spike sales. The E2-175 needs the tiniest sale to keep alive; why isn't Embraer offering Winderoe a pair for a song? Always be selling or die is a business axiom for a reason.

Lightsaber



You would think they'd send 175E2 to Winderoe and maybe offer free conversions for Horizon and Fuji and anyone else who don't have scope issues for the 175E2. Although I remember you talked about how until there's a large order no one wants the risk of an orphaned fleet? Could it be the case that they might have made those offers but everyone has declined until they get a critical mass of orders to make folks feel like they aren't going to be stuck with an orphaned fleet? I don't know but I'd have to think they must have tried to give away some 175E2's just to get some in the market.

I'd like to think we would have heard about low/no cost conversions. I hadn't considered Horizon and Fuji, good points. Getting 3 small buyers would be enough to get them to Farnborough IMHO. That would make AF/KLM and IAG much easier sales.... I like your thinking.

Lightsaber

Lightsaber

Wouldn't the 175E2 have to fit the AS scope clauses to be able to go to QX?
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:01 pm

The UFO order booked by Bombardier in March for 6 DHC-8-400Qs is destined for TAAG Angola Airlines. The new owner of the DHC-8-400Q programme, De Havilland of Canada announced this news.

https://twitter.com/scramble_nl/status/ ... 5571538946

https://newsroom.aviator.aero/de-havill ... -airlines/

Cheers!
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:19 pm

Horizon has a higher scope limit weight that allows E2-175 opperations. I couldn't find a link, I just recall it is higher than the standard 86,000lb.

seabosdca wrote:
It's starting to look like not designing the E175 E2 to conform to existing scope clauses in the U.S. was a serious mistake.

I'm a bit surprised by the lack of international E190/E195 E2 orders to date, though.

I am too. I am also surprised at zero international E2-175 buyers. Hopefully orders at PAS are not done.

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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:47 pm

JetSmart has selected P&W engines to power its 85 A320neos

https://twitter.com/aviator_aero/status ... 19456?s=20
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:51 pm

LifelinerOne wrote:
The UFO order booked by Bombardier in March for 6 DHC-8-400Qs is destined for TAAG Angola Airlines. The new owner of the DHC-8-400Q programme, De Havilland of Canada announced this news.

https://twitter.com/scramble_nl/status/ ... 5571538946

https://newsroom.aviator.aero/de-havill ... -airlines/

Cheers!

The Q400 seems to be dominant in the African market hopefully Viking can get some more orders.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:57 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
T4thH wrote:
alberchico wrote:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/18/all-electric-jet-firm-eviation-announces-us-airline-as-first-customer.html

Wow. Cape Air is going to buy The Tecnam P2012 as well as an all electric aircraft

Image


Yes the word WOW is correct...so...

WOW, OK only two but an AIRLINE has ordered the FIRST TWO ELECTRIC PLANES!
So either we will remember this day as gamechanger....or one of the next big failures as electric planes are just...rubbish and no gamechanger.


For short-haul, small capacity, electric propulsion is going to be a game changer. Remember how Harbour Air also announced recently their intention to convert their entire fleet to electric.

This is amazing news. Cape Air = exciting!


This has to be the FIRST tailwheel design for commercial operation since the DC-3. Not a chance they get it cert’d in two years.

GF
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:59 pm

I know there isn't a thing as E1, but for sake of trying to prevent confusion please excuse my use of it ;)

lightsaber wrote:
Horizon has a higher scope limit weight that allows E2-175 opperations. I couldn't find a link, I just recall it is higher than the standard 86,000lb.

seabosdca wrote:
It's starting to look like not designing the E175 E2 to conform to existing scope clauses in the U.S. was a serious mistake.

I'm a bit surprised by the lack of international E190/E195 E2 orders to date, though.

I am too. I am also surprised at zero international E2-175 buyers. Hopefully orders at PAS are not done.

Lightsaber

https://seekingalpha.com/article/411901 ... ration-win
Appears that Alaska doesn't have a MTOW requirement for scope just a seat limit.

lightsaber wrote:


You would think they'd send 175E2 to Winderoe and maybe offer free conversions for Horizon and Fuji and anyone else who don't have scope issues for the 175E2. Although I remember you talked about how until there's a large order no one wants the risk of an orphaned fleet? Could it be the case that they might have made those offers but everyone has declined until they get a critical mass of orders to make folks feel like they aren't going to be stuck with an orphaned fleet? I don't know but I'd have to think they must have tried to give away some 175E2's just to get some in the market.

I'd like to think we would have heard about low/no cost conversions. I hadn't considered Horizon and Fuji, good points. Getting 3 small buyers would be enough to get them to Farnborough IMHO. That would make AF/KLM and IAG much easier sales.... I like your thinking.

Lightsaber[/quote]

I can't say I've been in aircraft sales but being in sales I do know that when you have a product you need to get economies of scale on or else it becomes no better than a glorified paperweight there are very things you won't do to get to the economy of scale. I've been continually at a loss to why Embraer hasn't figured that one out.

Step One
Wideroe has 10 Q400's, offer them 175E2's to replace them at or below cost (do whatever it takes) which will get you an important add on/follow up order/launch order for the E2. It would signal faith in the market place that the E2 is worth follow up orders, and would establish a potential market (that I think will exist) where as long as the turboprops out there aren't being updated engine wise the new GTF jets will be able to make any efficiency differences between jet and turboprop even more negligible.

Step Two
Offer Alaska Horizon E2's at E1 pricing, and automatic conversion to the E2 on the remaining orders and options Alaska has. (7 orders 33 options left) Follow this up with offering to trade the rest of near new E1's for E2's for cheap in a package deal with replacing the Q400's (ala what you're doing with Wideroe). This would get you if you just replaced the Q400's 35 orders, but maybe up to ~60 or so if you basically did it to replace the whole fleet. (E1's have a strong second hand market can be sold to Skywest or cheap to fill Republic's big order). Do this same thing for all other 175's for folks that don't have to worry about scope clauses, a E2 is far more important to get ordered and out the door than an E1 at this point.

Step Three
Have built in to contracts E2 upgrade fees for the ~175 175E1's on order by US regional carriers that are very low (ie less than conversion cost over to the MRJ). This makes it so there's a backstop and more likely that carriers will keep ordering 175E1's till they can do an E2, rather than go through the headache of trying a new unproven platform.

In this case you've got ~50 orders for 175E2's, and a much tighter hold on preventing US regionals from jumping ship to MRJ, along with Horizon putting pressure in the market for US regionals to compete with the new engine generation. Can you get to this position? I don't know but it does seem to me that whatever it costs to do so is probably worth it, and now that you've got Boeing backing you up I think throwing a bunch of money on the table to secure your position as the overwhelming majority regional airframe is well worth it. My only question is would 50 orders for the 175 E2 be enough for carriers to sign up feeling that they aren't signing up for an orphan? I'm thinking you'd have to get Alaska to jump first, what's the minimum amount they'd have to buy before other airlines wouldn't feel uncomfortable buying them in ones and twos?
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:14 pm

AAlaxfan wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
iceberg210 wrote:


You would think they'd send 175E2 to Winderoe and maybe offer free conversions for Horizon and Fuji and anyone else who don't have scope issues for the 175E2. Although I remember you talked about how until there's a large order no one wants the risk of an orphaned fleet? Could it be the case that they might have made those offers but everyone has declined until they get a critical mass of orders to make folks feel like they aren't going to be stuck with an orphaned fleet? I don't know but I'd have to think they must have tried to give away some 175E2's just to get some in the market.

I'd like to think we would have heard about low/no cost conversions. I hadn't considered Horizon and Fuji, good points. Getting 3 small buyers would be enough to get them to Farnborough IMHO. That would make AF/KLM and IAG much easier sales.... I like your thinking.

Lightsaber

Lightsaber

Wouldn't the 175E2 have to fit the AS scope clauses to be able to go to QX?


There are no scope clauses for AS, IIRC.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:32 pm

Nothing on the Tecnam P2012?
I can drive faster than you
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:45 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Horizon has a higher scope limit weight that allows E2-175 opperations. I couldn't find a link, I just recall it is higher than the standard 86,000lb.

seabosdca wrote:
It's starting to look like not designing the E175 E2 to conform to existing scope clauses in the U.S. was a serious mistake.

I'm a bit surprised by the lack of international E190/E195 E2 orders to date, though.

I am too. I am also surprised at zero international E2-175 buyers. Hopefully orders at PAS are not done.

Lightsaber

Regarding E 175 E2:
1. It is really different to the rest of the E2 family (smaller version of ´the engines e.g.), so communality to the rest of the E2 family (195E2 and 190E2) is limited. If not enough are sold, you have an orphan bird, no one wants to have.
2. The new generation of engines is first just around 50% heavier, structure has to be stronger (so heavier) to carry them (so more weight even), so you are flying around with several tons more. They are around 50% more expensive and also maintenance is overall more than 50% higher. Additional there is no, to a limited benefit in fuel consumption during start and landing, so in short haul flights the fuel benefit is low. The new generation of Jet engines seems just not to work on the smallest jets of one family of birds; how many A319Neo, Max 7 (which is alread streched to a 7.5), MRJ70 and E175E2 have been ordered? At least they have no benefit to the prior generation or are including capityl costs more expensive.
3. The whole regional jet market (so PAX 50 to 100) is around 2200 jets in the next 20 years.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/paris-boeing-ups-20-year-forecast-on-global-growth-458968/
These are just little more than 100 jets / year.
4. around 60% of the regional market is the US/Canada market, regarding scope clauses, the market is dead for the E175 E2, Big regional markets are also Russia and China, In both countries, many to most of the regional routes have to be sponsored by the state or the reginal governments (in China),, there will be negative net earnings else. These regional airlines are often half owned/controlled by the state/governments and as the state/regional governments are paying them, they also decide (or just stress) which plane type is used, so SSJ100 in Russia and the COMAC ARJ21 ordered in China and the chinese produced turboprops. Additional the local governments force the airlines of the country to buy small numbers of jets locally produced. So these markets are also dead, as local products are forced to be used.
5. Turboprops have a nice benefit in fuel consumption in comparison to jets and in short haul flights/on short routes, the loss of time is limited. In Europe, also Carribean, turboprops are selling pretty well (just remind, we have 105 orders and options for the ATR42/ATR72 on this show and also seen several Q400 orders).

OK, so which market do we have for the E175E2 in the world? US/Canada market is dead, Russia and China is dead, Carribean and Europe, turboprops are now prefered regarding high fuel prices...by ar total expected market in next 20 years of 2200 regional OK, JETS (and not turboprops)? And we have as competitors still the MRJ90 and 70, CRJ family, the E175, SSJ100, ARJ21, Embraer ERJ family e.g.? And the regional jets are additional in competion with the turboprops.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:59 pm

qf789 wrote:
JetSmart has selected P&W engines to power its 85 A320neos

https://twitter.com/aviator_aero/status ... 19456?s=20

Yes! A decent enough order.

Sorry, I'm still morning the loss of Indigo. Sniffle Sniffle (alas earned).

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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:58 pm

If I'm remembering correctly Skywest is/was the 175E2 launch customer but Embraer cancelled??? or took that order of 100+100 off their order books.. SkyWest flies for Alaska too... Could this be another bad sign for the 175E2... As an airline (Skywest) that previously had firm orders for the E2 and also has existing contacts with Alaska airlines that has scope allowing flying of the 175E2 has cancelled it's launch customer order.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:03 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
T4thH wrote:

Yes the word WOW is correct...so...

WOW, OK only two but an AIRLINE has ordered the FIRST TWO ELECTRIC PLANES!
So either we will remember this day as gamechanger....or one of the next big failures as electric planes are just...rubbish and no gamechanger.


For short-haul, small capacity, electric propulsion is going to be a game changer. Remember how Harbour Air also announced recently their intention to convert their entire fleet to electric.

This is amazing news. Cape Air = exciting!


This has to be the FIRST tailwheel design for commercial operation since the DC-3. Not a chance they get it cert’d in two years.

GF

It has a nosewheel on the renderings...

We can only hope it will prove to be fit for the job. At least the order proves there is a market for this type of planes. Would be interesting to know what the expected fuel cost savings would be. And I guess maintenance cost would also be lower.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:33 pm

The picture is clearly a taildragger, which will certainly be interesting on a windy Nantucket day.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:35 pm

Murf wrote:
If I'm remembering correctly Skywest is/was the 175E2 launch customer but Embraer cancelled??? or took that order of 100+100 off their order books.. SkyWest flies for Alaska too... Could this be another bad sign for the 175E2... As an airline (Skywest) that previously had firm orders for the E2 and also has existing contacts with Alaska airlines that has scope allowing flying of the 175E2 has cancelled it's launch customer order.


No, it is not cancelled...it is only reduced to something like non binding purchase rights without delivery date. So to just nothing.
So, if the scopr clauses will be changed/modified accordingly, than we will see again some orders, else we will not see anything.
But why the trade union for pilots of the comercial pilots shall be willed to change the agreement, which has been only introduced to protect the jobs for the comercial pilots from the worst paid regional pilots? A change would have only a benefit for the regional pilots (as said, the trade unions, who only responsible for the comercial pilots and NOT for the regionl pilots,, shall change anything,, what will only risk the jobs and earnings of the own members?
Last edited by T4thH on Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:38 pm

Jalap wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

For short-haul, small capacity, electric propulsion is going to be a game changer. Remember how Harbour Air also announced recently their intention to convert their entire fleet to electric.

This is amazing news. Cape Air = exciting!


This has to be the FIRST tailwheel design for commercial operation since the DC-3. Not a chance they get it cert’d in two years.

GF

It has a nosewheel on the renderings...

We can only hope it will prove to be fit for the job. At least the order proves there is a market for this type of planes. Would be interesting to know what the expected fuel cost savings would be. And I guess maintenance cost would also be lower.


https://thepointsguy.com/news/eviation- ... lane-tour/

Heres the video of its unveiling :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eta7I5OCaIk

There is a production conforming prototype under construction. It appears to also have a tailwheel configuration. It is possible the massive weight of the batteries ( almost 8,000 pounds) screwed up the aircraft's CG to the point where a redesign was warranted to bring it within limits.

Image
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gatibosgru
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:34 am

Regional aircraft lessor NAC has signed a letter of intent to take up to 105 ATR -600 turboprops, including commitments covering 35 firm aircraft.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... rs-459103/
@DadCelo
 
T4thH
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:38 am

gatibosgru wrote:
Regional aircraft lessor NAC has signed a letter of intent to take up to 105 ATR -600 turboprops, including commitments covering 35 firm aircraft.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... rs-459103/

see post #42.
 
BBDFlyer
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:50 am

Murf wrote:
If I'm remembering correctly Skywest is/was the 175E2 launch customer but Embraer cancelled??? or took that order of 100+100 off their order books.. SkyWest flies for Alaska too... Could this be another bad sign for the 175E2... As an airline (Skywest) that previously had firm orders for the E2 and also has existing contacts with Alaska airlines that has scope allowing flying of the 175E2 has cancelled it's launch customer order.

Alaska doesn’t have any scope, but SkyWest’s contract with Delta says that SkyWest cannot fly anything bigger than 86,000 and 76 seats with any carrier or the Delta contract can be cancelled.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:16 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The picture is clearly a taildragger, which will certainly be interesting on a windy Nantucket day.


Crosswind will also be interesting with wingtip mounted props.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:19 am

M100 has a commitment for 15 M100s from an NA customer. https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 74368?s=21


I really don’t get why they called it the M100, makes more sense to call it the M70 or something.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:03 am

ikolkyo wrote:
M100 has a commitment for 15 M100s from an NA customer. https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 74368?s=21


I really don’t get why they called it the M100, makes more sense to call it the M70 or something.

Hmm, but M70 sounds very much like MA60...
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:08 am

N14AZ wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
M100 has a commitment for 15 M100s from an NA customer. https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 74368?s=21


I really don’t get why they called it the M100, makes more sense to call it the M70 or something.

Hmm, but M70 sounds very much like MA60...


It really doesn’t, plus I don’t many think about those Chinese birds.
 
T4thH
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:24 am

ATR is planning a STOL version of the ATR-42 and will start with 10 orders by a lessor (Elix Capital) in 2024

"@ATRaircraft is planning to launch a short take off and landing version of the ATR 42 aircraft, launching with ten aircraft in 2024 to Elix Capital, a lessor #PAS19"
https://twitter.com/LiveFromALounge/status/1141257568217653248

And an Update!
Two more of the STOL version for Air Tahiti, see same thread on Twitter below.
 
T4thH
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Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:02 am

T4thH wrote:
ATR is planning a STOL version of the ATR-42 and will start with 10 orders by a lessor (Elix Capital) in 2024

"@ATRaircraft is planning to launch a short take off and landing version of the ATR 42 aircraft, launching with ten aircraft in 2024 to Elix Capital, a lessor #PAS19"
https://twitter.com/LiveFromALounge/status/1141257568217653248

And an Update!
Two more of the STOL version for Air Tahiti, see same thread on Twitter below.


And next update: STOL version is called ATR-42 600S
and new: 5 additional ATR-42-600 S for undisclosed customer.
https://twitter.com/AeronewsRO/status/1141265632622759936

A really nice start for the new product (the STOL version). Overall, ATR on PAS19 is one of the biggest winners with something around 130? orders and options till now.The regional market is not a big market.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:42 am

T4thH wrote:
ATR is planning a STOL version of the ATR-42 and will start with 10 orders by a lessor (Elix Capital) in 2024

"@ATRaircraft is planning to launch a short take off and landing version of the ATR 42 aircraft, launching with ten aircraft in 2024 to Elix Capital, a lessor #PAS19"
https://twitter.com/LiveFromALounge/status/1141257568217653248

And an Update!
Two more of the STOL version for Air Tahiti, see same thread on Twitter below.

And what will be the differnce between an STOL ATR 42 and a standard ATR 42? Any technical details already available?
 
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OA940
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:00 pm

N14AZ wrote:
T4thH wrote:
ATR is planning a STOL version of the ATR-42 and will start with 10 orders by a lessor (Elix Capital) in 2024

"@ATRaircraft is planning to launch a short take off and landing version of the ATR 42 aircraft, launching with ten aircraft in 2024 to Elix Capital, a lessor #PAS19"
https://twitter.com/LiveFromALounge/status/1141257568217653248

And an Update!
Two more of the STOL version for Air Tahiti, see same thread on Twitter below.

And what will be the differnce between an STOL ATR 42 and a standard ATR 42? Any technical details already available?


Well the S will need just 2600ft to take off so
A350/CSeries = bae
 
vfw614
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:15 pm

ATR has offered the STOL version for two years, it is "just" the first order for the bird.

viewtopic.php?t=1366381
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:16 pm

OA940 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
T4thH wrote:
ATR is planning a STOL version of the ATR-42 and will start with 10 orders by a lessor (Elix Capital) in 2024

"@ATRaircraft is planning to launch a short take off and landing version of the ATR 42 aircraft, launching with ten aircraft in 2024 to Elix Capital, a lessor #PAS19"
https://twitter.com/LiveFromALounge/status/1141257568217653248

And an Update!
Two more of the STOL version for Air Tahiti, see same thread on Twitter below.

And what will be the differnce between an STOL ATR 42 and a standard ATR 42? Any technical details already available?


Well the S will need just 2600ft to take off so

Well yes, but how will they achieve this? More powerful engines? Rockets à la Hercules? Rubber band? Just asking...
 
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hilram
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:47 pm

N14AZ wrote:
OA940 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
And what will be the differnce between an STOL ATR 42 and a standard ATR 42? Any technical details already available?


Well the S will need just 2600ft to take off so

Well yes, but how will they achieve this? More powerful engines? Rockets à la Hercules? Rubber band? Just asking...

Yes, they will use the same Thrust for the engines as for the ATR 72 (=no derating, like current ATR 42).
In addition, there will be a new flap/slat configuration, and improved brakes.

I know that ATR are pitching the STOL version of ATR 42 to Wideroe, as a replacement for their Bombardier Q100/Q200 fleet.
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:58 pm

Image

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
This has to be the FIRST tailwheel design for commercial operation since the DC-3.
GF

{cough}Vickers Viking

Avro York

Avro Tudor

They even fitted one with jet engines, and retained the tail wheel! I bet that scorched some grass on take off....

Speaking of which; that tail propeller on the Eviation bird will trim the tall weeds if it ever lands at a grass airfield. I wouldn't want to be following it whilst it was taxying....

There was also the SE.161 Languedoc (Air France) - now forgotten, but 100 were built, which was quite a big deal in 1948.
And there were also others that didn't amount to much (e.g. Fiat G.212, Sud-Ouest SO.95 Corse, etc)
It was a Fiat that wiped out the Grande Torino soccer team; see Superga Air Disaster (1949) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superga_air_disaster

(Yes, in responding to the original comment I have drifted off-topic. But if you applied the rules strictly, half this thread would disappear, particularly all the other comments about tailwheel aircraft. Meh - Enjoy!)

Now let's get back to Le Bourget.... :airplane:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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OA940
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:35 pm

hilram wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
OA940 wrote:

Well the S will need just 2600ft to take off so

Well yes, but how will they achieve this? More powerful engines? Rockets à la Hercules? Rubber band? Just asking...

Yes, they will use the same Thrust for the engines as for the ATR 72 (=no derating, like current ATR 42).
In addition, there will be a new flap/slat configuration, and improved brakes.

I know that ATR are pitching the STOL version of ATR 42 to Wideroe, as a replacement for their Bombardier Q100/Q200 fleet.


I'm not all that familiar with turboprop economics etc. but while it does cover one major problem with the current regionals in production I assume Wideroe, and a lot of other Q100/200 operators would prefer a 35 (or so) seater over a 50-seater, at least for some of the routes.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
Amiga500
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:45 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
They even fitted one with jet engines, and retained the tail wheel! I bet that scorched some grass on take off....


Beautiful - thank you for drawing it to my attention. :thumbsup:
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2702
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:31 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Well yes, but how will they achieve this? More powerful engines? Rockets à la Hercules? Rubber band? Just asking...


The 42 has derated engines. Unrating them to 72 standard will increase it from 2160 hp per engine to 2750 hp per engine.
To facilitate the VMC with extra torque, they will need to add a powered rudder. The current ATR only has a weak pilot and cable controlled unpowered balance-tab rudder.
The 72 has more powerful (and expensive) carbon brakes. Those will help.
The 42 always came with some flap settings that weren't used. 15 and 30 for takeoff and landing respectively, while 45 was blocked. Later the 42-500 changed that to 15 for takeoff, an unused 25 degrees setting and 35 for landing. Various combinations could help.

OA940 wrote:
I'm not all that familiar with turboprop economics etc. but while it does cover one major problem with the current regionals in production I assume Wideroe, and a lot of other Q100/200 operators would prefer a 35 (or so) seater over a 50-seater, at least for some of the routes.


AFAIK, the 42 has the same fuel burn as the SAAB 340 even though it carries more. Don't know about the Q100/200.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:34 pm

Any reason a small (or for that matter medium) plane could not have swap out battery packs? Battery technology is advancing fast enough that new packs every few years would make sense. And there will be markets for those older packs, especially if designed for such.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 949
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:39 pm

KLM order up to 35 E195-E2 https://twitter.com/e_russell/status/11 ... 7038572546

15 firm orders.
 
T4thH
Posts: 156
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:40 pm

KLM orders some 15 E195 E2 and 20 purchase rights additional.
https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/1141353903314939904
 
AsiaTravel
Posts: 310
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:28 am

Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:43 pm

T4thH wrote:
KLM orders some 15 E195 E2 and 20 purchase rights additional.
https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/1141353903314939904


Nice! Was expecting something from AF-KLM but not that.
 
T4thH
Posts: 156
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:47 pm

AsiaTravel wrote:
T4thH wrote:
KLM orders some 15 E195 E2 and 20 purchase rights additional.
https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/1141353903314939904


Nice! Was expecting something from AF-KLM but not that.


Yes I have to say, I had expected A220 as AF has till now ordered ervery single verion of all Airbus birds, even including the A318.

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