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lightsaber
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:01 pm

Embraer launches E2 predictive maintenance.
https://www.skiesmag.com/press-releases ... -ikon/amp/

My take is that it takes 3+ years of data on 150+ aircraft to be useful to cut costs. The more aircraft, the better assuming one has a plan to farm the data.

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inkjet7
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:07 pm

It's an intention to purchase, not an order yet.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:10 pm

VSMUT wrote:
[

AFAIK, the 42 has the same fuel burn as the SAAB 340 even though it carries more. Don't know about the Q100/200.

This is why I wonder if the key to making a replacement 30 seater would be to jump the 42 in engine technology, ie put the biggest GE Catalyst you could on there, just don't know if that's really a possible engine for a Q100 or EMB120....


seansasLCY wrote:
KLM order up to 35 E195-E2 https://twitter.com/e_russell/status/11 ... 7038572546

15 firm orders.

That's the order Embraer has been waiting for for the E2 for a long time. Great news for the E2! Hopefully they've still got a couple more this show, but that sure makes the EJets have a whole lot more life coming out of the show.
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:40 pm

iceberg210 wrote:
This is why I wonder if the key to making a replacement 30 seater would be to jump the 42 in engine technology, ie put the biggest GE Catalyst you could on there, just don't know if that's really a possible engine for a Q100 or EMB120....


The GE Cataclyst is just a tad in the weak end. You will need at least 2000 hp for an ATR 42.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:03 pm

iceberg210 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
[

AFAIK, the 42 has the same fuel burn as the SAAB 340 even though it carries more. Don't know about the Q100/200.

This is why I wonder if the key to making a replacement 30 seater would be to jump the 42 in engine technology, ie put the biggest GE Catalyst you could on there, just don't know if that's really a possible engine for a Q100 or EMB120....


seansasLCY wrote:
KLM order up to 35 E195-E2 https://twitter.com/e_russell/status/11 ... 7038572546

15 firm orders.

That's the order Embraer has been waiting for for the E2 for a long time. Great news for the E2! Hopefully they've still got a couple more this show, but that sure makes the EJets have a whole lot more life coming out of the show.

KLM buying 15 is a big deal. Not enough to sustain production in 2020, but enough to keep the E2 in the sales game.

Congrats!
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iceberg210
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:12 pm

VSMUT wrote:
iceberg210 wrote:
This is why I wonder if the key to making a replacement 30 seater would be to jump the 42 in engine technology, ie put the biggest GE Catalyst you could on there, just don't know if that's really a possible engine for a Q100 or EMB120....


The GE Cataclyst is just a tad in the weak end. You will need at least 2000 hp for an ATR 42.

Yeah I know it'd be far too little for a 50 seater, my question is whether it could be used on a reengined 30 seater (ie a new DHC8-100 which was first built with 1800 hp per engine where the max catalyst is currently at 1600 HP)


Back on the KLM order, any word on other airlines that were looking into upgrading to the E2? IAG Royal Jordanian etc? I'm honestly a little surprised KLM bought this early in the cycle as they have a lot of newer E Jets.
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:23 pm

I think the E195 might be a partial 737-700 replacement. Thinner routes can move to klc with a loper operation cost. White other routes will move to a future NEO/Max fleet, With the low end being the a320 or 737-8.
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:23 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
It's an intention to purchase, not an order yet.

LoI.
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2019/06 ... braer.html

This is still very good news

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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:28 pm

iceberg210 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
iceberg210 wrote:
This is why I wonder if the key to making a replacement 30 seater would be to jump the 42 in engine technology, ie put the biggest GE Catalyst you could on there, just don't know if that's really a possible engine for a Q100 or EMB120....


The GE Cataclyst is just a tad in the weak end. You will need at least 2000 hp for an ATR 42.

Yeah I know it'd be far too little for a 50 seater, my question is whether it could be used on a reengined 30 seater (ie a new DHC8-100 which was first built with 1800 hp per engine where the max catalyst is currently at 1600 HP)


Back on the KLM order, any word on other airlines that were looking into upgrading to the E2? IAG Royal Jordanian etc? I'm honestly a little surprised KLM bought this early in the cycle as they have a lot of newer E Jets.

IAG is bidding off the E2 va. A220 for 26.

What concerns me is no announcement from Aircastle to place their E2s.

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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:37 pm

FlyRow wrote:
I think the E195 might be a partial 737-700 replacement. Thinner routes can move to klc with a loper operation cost. White other routes will move to a future NEO/Max fleet, With the low end being the a320 or 737-8.

AMS is slot limited and hence KLM has been up-gauging aircraft capacity. KL said to a local aviation website:

E195-E2, nicknamed 'Profit Hunter' for its economic performance, will eventually replace the E190 at KLM Cityhopper.
https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... or-e195-e2

They might also be used as added capacity when AMS allows for more slots to quickly capture all of those that can be allocated to KL.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:25 pm

I read that the oldest E190 in KLM’s fleet is 11 years old. I’m curious as to their reasoning on replacing them.
Everyone probably expected a 737-replacement order rather than an E190-replacement order. ;)
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:58 pm

AMS18C36C wrote:
I read that the oldest E190 in KLM’s fleet is 11 years old. I’m curious as to their reasoning on replacing them.

Up-gauging capacity. They have done the same by replacing 11 year old 737-700's for 737-800's.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:26 pm

BBDFlyer wrote:
Murf wrote:
If I'm remembering correctly Skywest is/was the 175E2 launch customer but Embraer cancelled??? or took that order of 100+100 off their order books.. SkyWest flies for Alaska too... Could this be another bad sign for the 175E2... As an airline (Skywest) that previously had firm orders for the E2 and also has existing contacts with Alaska airlines that has scope allowing flying of the 175E2 has cancelled it's launch customer order.

Alaska doesn’t have any scope, but SkyWest’s contract with Delta says that SkyWest cannot fly anything bigger than 86,000 and 76 seats with any carrier or the Delta contract can be cancelled.


Why would Delta have a clause like that in the contract?

seansasLCY wrote:
KLM order up to 35 E195-E2 https://twitter.com/e_russell/status/11 ... 7038572546

15 firm orders.


Excellent news for Embraer and KLM. I look forwards to flying on one of them in the not too distant future.
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:42 pm

zkojq wrote:
BBDFlyer wrote:
Murf wrote:
If I'm remembering correctly Skywest is/was the 175E2 launch customer but Embraer cancelled??? or took that order of 100+100 off their order books.. SkyWest flies for Alaska too... Could this be another bad sign for the 175E2... As an airline (Skywest) that previously had firm orders for the E2 and also has existing contacts with Alaska airlines that has scope allowing flying of the 175E2 has cancelled it's launch customer order.

Alaska doesn’t have any scope, but SkyWest’s contract with Delta says that SkyWest cannot fly anything bigger than 86,000 and 76 seats with any carrier or the Delta contract can be cancelled.


Why would Delta have a clause like that in the contract?

Because that’s what has been agreed with their pilots.

V/F
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:56 pm

T4thH wrote:
Yes I have to say, I had expected A220 as AF has till now ordered ervery single verion of all Airbus birds, even including the A318.


:boggled: Somehow I missed the pictures of the Air France A340NG? Must have been very pretty.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:37 pm

zkojq wrote:
BBDFlyer wrote:
Murf wrote:
If I'm remembering correctly Skywest is/was the 175E2 launch customer but Embraer cancelled??? or took that order of 100+100 off their order books.. SkyWest flies for Alaska too... Could this be another bad sign for the 175E2... As an airline (Skywest) that previously had firm orders for the E2 and also has existing contacts with Alaska airlines that has scope allowing flying of the 175E2 has cancelled it's launch customer order.

Alaska doesn’t have any scope, but SkyWest’s contract with Delta says that SkyWest cannot fly anything bigger than 86,000 and 76 seats with any carrier or the Delta contract can be cancelled.


Why would Delta have a clause like that in the contract?

seansasLCY wrote:
KLM order up to 35 E195-E2 https://twitter.com/e_russell/status/11 ... 7038572546

15 firm orders.


Excellent news for Embraer and KLM. I look forwards to flying on one of them in the not too distant future.



You missed the multitude of scope threads?

GF
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:22 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
zkojq wrote:
BBDFlyer wrote:
Alaska doesn’t have any scope, but SkyWest’s contract with Delta says that SkyWest cannot fly anything bigger than 86,000 and 76 seats with any carrier or the Delta contract can be cancelled.


Why would Delta have a clause like that in the contract?

Because that’s what has been agreed with their pilots.

V/F



No I mean why would Delta's contact with SkyWest stop SkyWest from operating aircraft of a certain characteristics for airlines that aren't Delta? That's none of their business.
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:25 pm

The A321neo, E195-E2 and the 737 MAX 10 are attracting or beginning to attract more attention from airlines than smaller versions. The E195-E2 already has four times more firm orders than the E190-E2.

Clearly a change compared to the old version of these aircraft families.
Last edited by edu2703 on Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:25 pm

Because the DL/ALPA contract requires any out-sourced work cannot he done by contractors using aircraft exceeding the DL scope limits. This is industry standard.

GF
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:26 pm

OA940 wrote:
hilram wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Well yes, but how will they achieve this? More powerful engines? Rockets à la Hercules? Rubber band? Just asking...

Yes, they will use the same Thrust for the engines as for the ATR 72 (=no derating, like current ATR 42).
In addition, there will be a new flap/slat configuration, and improved brakes.

I know that ATR are pitching the STOL version of ATR 42 to Wideroe, as a replacement for their Bombardier Q100/Q200 fleet.


I'm not all that familiar with turboprop economics etc. but while it does cover one major problem with the current regionals in production I assume Wideroe, and a lot of other Q100/200 operators would prefer a 35 (or so) seater over a 50-seater, at least for some of the routes.


Wideroe is operating its DHC8-100 as 39-seaters, not 35-seaters...

https://www.wideroe.no/en/business/charter-a-plane

...so they have crammed in as many seats as possible. Therefore, I guess some additional capacity is more welcome than unwelcome. ATR, btw, is marketing the ATR42 as a 44seater.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:35 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Because the DL/ALPA contract requires any out-sourced work cannot he done by contractors using aircraft exceeding the DL scope limits. This is industry standard.

GF


For flights operated for Delta by SkyWest I completely understand (and agree). But why is it any of Delta's business what aircraft SkyWest operates for other (non Delta) carriers. If SkyWest wants to operate E175E2s on behalf of, for example, Alaska then why does Delta's agreement preclude that as another poster here said. As long as Alaska and Alaska's pilot union are fine with E2s then why should Delta be able to stop them? :scratchchin:

Read the quote again:

BBDFlyer wrote:
Alaska doesn’t have any scope, but SkyWest’s contract with Delta says that SkyWest cannot fly anything bigger than 86,000 and 76 seats with any carrier or the Delta contract can be cancelled.
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:02 am

Ah, because ALPA and DL negotiators agreed to that clause. ALPA wanted to restrict out-sourcing and by this clause it prevents regionals from creating alter-ego airlines that impinge of ALPA flying. Say, SkyWest bought a fleet of A220s and tried to code share or compete against DL on DL routes out of KSLC. DL might not be able to compete based on higher costs of labor and reduce flying to the detriment of mainline DL pilots.

GF
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:36 am

Jetty wrote:
AMS18C36C wrote:
I read that the oldest E190 in KLM’s fleet is 11 years old. I’m curious as to their reasoning on replacing them.

Up-gauging capacity. They have done the same by replacing 11 year old 737-700's for 737-800's.

Yes, the oldest is 11 years old:
https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/KLM ... e-e190.htm

2008 delivery. Oh well, if economics says replace it, do so. Resale on E-190s is poor, oh well. More than likely there is a credit provision in the purchase.

I'm certain the A220-100 was offered at great terms. Airbus could have used the sale.

The CF-34-10 has never been a great engine. The E-Jets still have software issues and these planes are due for the expensive wing spar repair. Why wouldn't you switch to a different maintenance program and put as much of that steep maintenance bill into a down payment? Fuel and maintenance savings will pay back the lease and then there are free seats.

Lightsaber

Late edit:
Comment on E1-190/195 opperators:
https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-e190.htm
#1 opperators, JetBlue replacing early with A220
#2 opperators, Azul, replacing with E2-195
#5 operator, KLM replacing with E2-195

Air Canada used to be up there. They are just parking them for now. Last ones replaced by A220s

The E-Jets aren't loved by their opperators, at least not the CF-34-10 variants.
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:11 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Ah, because ALPA and DL negotiators agreed to that clause. ALPA wanted to restrict out-sourcing and by this clause it prevents regionals from creating alter-ego airlines that impinge of ALPA flying. Say, SkyWest bought a fleet of A220s and tried to code share or compete against DL on DL routes out of KSLC. DL might not be able to compete based on higher costs of labor and reduce flying to the detriment of mainline DL pilots.

GF


Bingo and that clause ain't going anywhere. It's not in Delta's best interest either.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:22 am

zkojq wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
zkojq wrote:

Why would Delta have a clause like that in the contract?

Because that’s what has been agreed with their pilots.

V/F



No I mean why would Delta's contact with SkyWest stop SkyWest from operating aircraft of a certain characteristics for airlines that aren't Delta? That's none of their business.


It doesn't. It has ordered the E175-E2 but of its contracts with the majors, only AS does not have a scope clause, so it will be only flying scope compliant planes for

From wiki
SkyWest, like most regional airlines in the United States, is subject to scope clause requirements of its mainline carrier partners and their pilot unions. Those requirements limit the size of the aircraft flown by regional airlines, measured in seat capacity. This has created three subgroups of aircraft flown by SkyWest: aircraft with no more than 50 seats, no more than 70 seats and no more than 76 seats.


SkyWest operates an average of more than 2,200 flights per day to 250+ cities in the United States, Canada, Mexico, and the Bahamas with an extensive network of routes largely set up to connect passengers between smaller airports and the large hubs of its partner airlines. In total, SkyWest carried 35.9 million passengers in 2017.

Under various contracts, the company operates an average of 897 flights per day as Delta Connection on behalf of Delta Air Lines, 812 flights per day as United Express on behalf of United Airlines, 332 flights per day as American Eagle on behalf of American Airlines, and 144 flights per day as Alaska SkyWest in partnership with Alaska Airlines.


So Skywest operates 2,185 flights each day for DL, UA, AA, and AS, maybe 200 each day outside of that.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:02 am

Babyshark wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Ah, because ALPA and DL negotiators agreed to that clause. ALPA wanted to restrict out-sourcing and by this clause it prevents regionals from creating alter-ego airlines that impinge of ALPA flying. Say, SkyWest bought a fleet of A220s and tried to code share or compete against DL on DL routes out of KSLC. DL might not be able to compete based on higher costs of labor and reduce flying to the detriment of mainline DL pilots.

GF


Bingo and that clause ain't going anywhere. It's not in Delta's best interest either.


And it's also why new airlines such as Moxy come into existence.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:32 am

So no announcement concerning the CRJ program sale to MHI yet?
The Spacejet has not collected orders yet, except the 15 UFO's.
We would have to wait until the M100's first flight milestone to start seeing orders pour in.
However, with the M90 about to EIS, why aren't they selling any of those? Too much focus on the U. S. RJ market?
With the M90's low fuel burn, fhe many ATR/Q400 operators could be considered as potential sales opportunities.
The countless European regional airlines should also be interested.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:53 am

vfw614 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
hilram wrote:
Yes, they will use the same Thrust for the engines as for the ATR 72 (=no derating, like current ATR 42).
In addition, there will be a new flap/slat configuration, and improved brakes.

I know that ATR are pitching the STOL version of ATR 42 to Wideroe, as a replacement for their Bombardier Q100/Q200 fleet.


I'm not all that familiar with turboprop economics etc. but while it does cover one major problem with the current regionals in production I assume Wideroe, and a lot of other Q100/200 operators would prefer a 35 (or so) seater over a 50-seater, at least for some of the routes.


Wideroe is operating its DHC8-100 as 39-seaters, not 35-seaters...

https://www.wideroe.no/en/business/charter-a-plane

...so they have crammed in as many seats as possible. Therefore, I guess some additional capacity is more welcome than unwelcome. ATR, btw, is marketing the ATR42 as a 44seater.


The ATR 42 seats up to 52. Most typical is 48.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:04 am

Jetty wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
I think the E195 might be a partial 737-700 replacement. Thinner routes can move to klc with a loper operation cost. White other routes will move to a future NEO/Max fleet, With the low end being the a320 or 737-8.

AMS is slot limited and hence KLM has been up-gauging aircraft capacity. KL said to a local aviation website:

E195-E2, nicknamed 'Profit Hunter' for its economic performance, will eventually replace the E190 at KLM Cityhopper.
https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... or-e195-e2

They might also be used as added capacity when AMS allows for more slots to quickly capture all of those that can be allocated to KL.


sure, but it won’t hurt KL when the E1-190 and E2-195 operate alongside for a while. The gap between the 100 seat E190 and 170 seat B738 is large (when the 73G is gone). Same between 80 seat E-170s and 130 seat E2-195. So for a while KL will be happy to have them flying side by side as KL is no stranger to right-sizing capacity on European routes.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:51 am

lightsaber wrote:
Jetty wrote:
AMS18C36C wrote:
I read that the oldest E190 in KLM’s fleet is 11 years old. I’m curious as to their reasoning on replacing them.

Up-gauging capacity. They have done the same by replacing 11 year old 737-700's for 737-800's.

Yes, the oldest is 11 years old:
https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/KLM ... e-e190.htm

2008 delivery. Oh well, if economics says replace it, do so. Resale on E-190s is poor, oh well. More than likely there is a credit provision in the purchase.

I'm certain the A220-100 was offered at great terms. Airbus could have used the sale.

The CF-34-10 has never been a great engine. The E-Jets still have software issues and these planes are due for the expensive wing spar repair. Why wouldn't you switch to a different maintenance program and put as much of that steep maintenance bill into a down payment? Fuel and maintenance savings will pay back the lease and then there are free seats.

Lightsaber

Late edit:
Comment on E1-190/195 opperators:
https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-e190.htm
#1 opperators, JetBlue replacing early with A220
#2 opperators, Azul, replacing with E2-195
#5 operator, KLM replacing with E2-195

Air Canada used to be up there. They are just parking them for now. Last ones replaced by A220s

The E-Jets aren't loved by their opperators, at least not the CF-34-10 variants.

The E-195 E2 are to replace the 737-700 at KLM. 4 of the 18x 73G are being replaced with the last 4 738s delivered by Boeing. Leases of the remaining 73Gs expire between now and 2023. The MAX-8 wasn't available in these numbers on short term, and the E195 E2 will have the same number of seats as the 73G in KL config (132-136 for the E195, 132 for the 73G).

The options are for E190 replacement. All but the 2 oldest of the E190s are leased too, those will expire between now and 2028: 4x 2019, 4x 2020, 4x 2021, 8x 2022, 2x 2023, 3x 2024, 3x 2025, 2x 2028.

Of course, if KL can secure delivery slots for the 737MAX earlier, there may be a shift in plans and the E-195 could replace E190s earlier. But the priority was 73G replacement, they are not economical to operate anymore with 4 FA's demanded by the unions.

KL 737NG and AF A32x replacement will probably be decided by the end of the year. Guess a lot will depend on availability/pricing of delivery slots freed up by MAX cancellations.

A220 probably was in the running as 73G re[placement as well, but the E jets are popular with KL passengers, and KL Cityhopper standardized on Embraer a few years ago. Adding a totally new type probably wasn't worth it. And plenty of availability for the E2. I believe the A220 is frontrunner to replace A318/A319s with AF though.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:14 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Any reason a small (or for that matter medium) plane could not have swap out battery packs? Battery technology is advancing fast enough that new packs every few years would make sense. And there will be markets for those older packs, especially if designed for such.


It's possible. But if it hasn't made inroads for commercial ground uses yet I don't see quick change batteries somehow working for aircraft. I think we're more likely to see designs that can take massive charge currents with the appropriate ground infrastructure. And possibly simplified replacement in hanger. As they will probably need to be replaced every now and then during the lifetime of the airframe itself.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:20 am

frigatebird wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Up-gauging capacity. They have done the same by replacing 11 year old 737-700's for 737-800's.

Yes, the oldest is 11 years old:
https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/KLM ... e-e190.htm

2008 delivery. Oh well, if economics says replace it, do so. Resale on E-190s is poor, oh well. More than likely there is a credit provision in the purchase.

I'm certain the A220-100 was offered at great terms. Airbus could have used the sale.

The CF-34-10 has never been a great engine. The E-Jets still have software issues and these planes are due for the expensive wing spar repair. Why wouldn't you switch to a different maintenance program and put as much of that steep maintenance bill into a down payment? Fuel and maintenance savings will pay back the lease and then there are free seats.

Lightsaber

Late edit:
Comment on E1-190/195 opperators:
https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-e190.htm
#1 opperators, JetBlue replacing early with A220
#2 opperators, Azul, replacing with E2-195
#5 operator, KLM replacing with E2-195

Air Canada used to be up there. They are just parking them for now. Last ones replaced by A220s

The E-Jets aren't loved by their opperators, at least not the CF-34-10 variants.

The E-195 E2 are to replace the 737-700 at KLM. 4 of the 18x 73G are being replaced with the last 4 738s delivered by Boeing. Leases of the remaining 73Gs expire between now and 2023. The MAX-8 wasn't available in these numbers on short term, and the E195 E2 will have the same number of seats as the 73G in KL config (132-136 for the E195, 132 for the 73G).

The options are for E190 replacement. All but the 2 oldest of the E190s are leased too, those will expire between now and 2028: 4x 2019, 4x 2020, 4x 2021, 8x 2022, 2x 2023, 3x 2024, 3x 2025, 2x 2028.

Of course, if KL can secure delivery slots for the 737MAX earlier, there may be a shift in plans and the E-195 could replace E190s earlier. But the priority was 73G replacement, they are not economical to operate anymore with 4 FA's demanded by the unions.

KL 737NG and AF A32x replacement will probably be decided by the end of the year. Guess a lot will depend on availability/pricing of delivery slots freed up by MAX cancellations.

A220 probably was in the running as 73G re[placement as well, but the E jets are popular with KL passengers, and KL Cityhopper standardized on Embraer a few years ago. Adding a totally new type probably wasn't worth it. And plenty of availability for the E2. I believe the A220 is frontrunner to replace A318/A319s with AF though.


737s to be replaced with E-jets? Thats sweet music to my ears! :cloudnine:

I assume this will mean moving KLM mainline business to Cityhopper? What about crews?
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:40 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Ah, because ALPA and DL negotiators agreed to that clause. ALPA wanted to restrict out-sourcing and by this clause it prevents regionals from creating alter-ego airlines that impinge of ALPA flying. Say, SkyWest bought a fleet of A220s and tried to code share or compete against DL on DL routes out of KSLC. DL might not be able to compete based on higher costs of labor and reduce flying to the detriment of mainline DL pilots.

GF


I understand your point, but using the phrase "ALPA Flying" when there are a multitude of different regionals represented by ALPA, too, is somewhat indicative of the disparity in the way regional pilot groups are treated vis-a-vis our major brethren, even in a union which is supposed to represent them, too.

It's one of the problems with the way the unions are structured in the US. What is good for regional pilots (in the present) often conflicts with the needs of the majors. When you have a single entity (ALPA National) representing all of those labor groups, it's a conflict of interest.

Now, in the long run, any flying that is retained by the majors is good for pilots as a whole so it's not as if I'm totally up in arms, but there are issues where I think this conflict of interest is relevant.
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:54 am

Companies are closing the order books on PAS19.

ATR:
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35 firm
35 options
35 purchase rights

ATR42S: ElixAviation (10), AirTahiti , UFO (5)
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Incom
Of the new Incom T-65, shown by Le godt: till now no orders.
https://twitter.com/D_Orbit/status/1141650620698550273https://twitter.com/D_Orbit/status/1141650620698550273
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:18 am

VSMUT wrote:
737s to be replaced with E-jets? Thats sweet music to my ears! :cloudnine:

I assume this will mean moving KLM mainline business to Cityhopper? What about crews?

I must say I don't know about details, so I can only offer my opinion here. But yes, I expect the number of destinations served by Cityhopper could increase. Although eventually the end result may be that that 738 routes will upgauge to MAX-10, 73G routes to 738/MAX-8, and E190 routes to E195. It's also possible KL will look at some double E190 frequencies, merging them to a single MAX-10. Some destinations see multiple daily E175/190 services, sometimes 2 morning and 2 evening departures shortly after each other.

All this of course if KL indeed add the MAX-8 and 10 to their fleet, as rumored.

Don't think the crews will be affected. Cityhopper will probably need more people, KLM mainline not as much.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:25 am

There's not enough room at AMS for KLM to downsize routes from the 737 to the E195. This order will be to replace the current E190 fleet early.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:38 am

Momo1435 wrote:
There's not enough room at AMS for KLM to downsize routes from the 737 to the E195. This order will be to replace the current E190 fleet early.


KLM seats 132 in the 737-700. The E195E2 will seat 132 in single class configuration. Not every destination served by the 737-700 can support an upsizing.

Edit: The FlightGlobal article seems to indicate that it will complement the existing E-jet fleet and replace the 737-700.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... st-459202/
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:24 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
There's not enough room at AMS for KLM to downsize routes from the 737 to the E195. This order will be to replace the current E190 fleet early.


KLM seats 132 in the 737-700. The E195E2 will seat 132 in single class configuration. Not every destination served by the 737-700 can support an upsizing.

Edit: The FlightGlobal article seems to indicate that it will complement the existing E-jet fleet and replace the 737-700.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... st-459202/

The current E195 E1 in their fleet has 118 seats, I don't see it go up with the E2 to match the 737-700.

You article you quote also mentions the market situation at AMS. It does look like the max number of flights will be increased by the current government, but it won't be enough for KLM to just downsize the replacements for the 737-700 at this moment.
 
iceberg210
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:36 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
The current E195 E1 in their fleet has 118 seats, I don't see it go up with the E2 to match the 737-700.

The E195E2 is three rows longer than the E1, so should be another 12 seats so my guess would be 130 total if in a similar configuration.
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:47 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
There's not enough room at AMS for KLM to downsize routes from the 737 to the E195. This order will be to replace the current E190 fleet early.


KLM seats 132 in the 737-700. The E195E2 will seat 132 in single class configuration. Not every destination served by the 737-700 can support an upsizing.

Edit: The FlightGlobal article seems to indicate that it will complement the existing E-jet fleet and replace the 737-700.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... st-459202/

I personally believe KLM will eventually excercise all options on the E2-195 and replace all E-190 with larger aircraft and some 73G with E2-195s on the routes that cannot support larger aircraft. I believe most 73Gs will be replaced by larger aircraft. Many routes will lose frequency to higher yielding routes, that is typical as slots will always be allocated to maximize profit

Overall, more E2s for KLM.

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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:49 pm

iceberg210 wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
The current E195 E1 in their fleet has 118 seats, I don't see it go up with the E2 to match the 737-700.

The E195E2 is three rows longer than the E1, so should be another 12 seats so my guess would be 130 total if in a similar configuration.

I never realized that the E2 was a bit bigger. But even then, most talk in all the other media then Flightglobal talks about replacing the E190s. We'll see what happens, especially when AF-KLM finaly decides on the next generation large narrow body for their fleets.
 
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:24 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
There's not enough room at AMS for KLM to downsize routes from the 737 to the E195. This order will be to replace the current E190 fleet early.


KLM seats 132 in the 737-700. The E195E2 will seat 132 in single class configuration. Not every destination served by the 737-700 can support an upsizing.

Edit: The FlightGlobal article seems to indicate that it will complement the existing E-jet fleet and replace the 737-700.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... st-459202/

The current E195 E1 in their fleet has 118 seats, I don't see it go up with the E2 to match the 737-700.


KLM only has the E190, no E195s. The E190E2 and
E195E2 are stretched over their E1 siblings.
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:06 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Resale on E-190s is poor, oh well.

Not that much ... only on the inicial batch of produced aircraft ...
We have many examples of airplanes in the first production lots that are already in the second or third operator ...


lightsaber wrote:
The CF-34-10 has never been a great engine.

Agree 100%.
And the interest in improving the product was never great either (on the part of GE, I mean) ...


lightsaber wrote:
The E-Jets still have software issues

No longer ... it is more related to practices not observed in the operation ... we have data on this ...

lightsaber wrote:
and these planes are due for the expensive wing spar repair.

Only in a small specific aircrafts ("the babies") related to a wrong pipeline during production and subsequently corrected. Customer alerted that at any given time the repair would be necessary ... All expenses due to Embraer, of course ...


lightsaber wrote:
E-Jets aren't loved by their operators, at least not the CF-34-10 variants.

By your posts (and I really like them ...), it seems to me that you are from the industry. And as you, although I am not a fan of the engines either, I confess that I diverge from your thinking on this issue. We have the AF (HOP) with the MSN 1900051 F-HBLA operating since November 2006, and we have the MSN 1900767 F-HBLL AF (HOP) delivered in May 2019 ... They are part of a batch of 7 new aircraft leased from Nordic. They are not replacing the oldest fleet but expanding the fleet they operate ...

As for the KLM order, they operate several flights to LCY.

Due to its dimensions and until there is an expansion of that airport, the E195-E2 will not be homologated for its operation there (idem for A220-300) ...

In fact, KLM aims to replace its fleet of 737-700 ...
 
inkjet7
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:41 pm

lightsaber wrote:
2008 delivery. Oh well, if economics says replace it, do so. Resale on E-190s is poor, oh well.


As far as I know most or all of the KLC ones are leased.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:46 pm

lightsaber wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
There's not enough room at AMS for KLM to downsize routes from the 737 to the E195. This order will be to replace the current E190 fleet early.


KLM seats 132 in the 737-700. The E195E2 will seat 132 in single class configuration. Not every destination served by the 737-700 can support an upsizing.

Edit: The FlightGlobal article seems to indicate that it will complement the existing E-jet fleet and replace the 737-700.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... st-459202/

I personally believe KLM will eventually excercise all options on the E2-195 and replace all E-190 with larger aircraft and some 73G with E2-195s on the routes that cannot support larger aircraft. I believe most 73Gs will be replaced by larger aircraft. Many routes will lose frequency to higher yielding routes, that is typical as slots will always be allocated to maximize profit

Overall, more E2s for KLM.

Lightsaber


I may have missed this, but will the E195-E2s be operated by KLM mainline or at Cityhopper?
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:21 pm

(Sorry for the size of images guys ... I really don´t know how to make them smaller :( )

Image KL 737-700 Image E195-E2 cabin layout
 
marcogr12
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:15 pm

well they could always go for a denser config. since the E2-195 can hold up to 146pax...But what will happen with the LCY flights if the E2-195 is not certified to fly to LCY and they have not ordered the E2-190?How long will they keep their E-190s?
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
inkjet7
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:29 pm

FlyRow wrote:
I think the E195 might be a partial 737-700 replacement. Thinner routes can move to klc with a loper operation cost. White other routes will move to a future NEO/Max fleet, With the low end being the a320 or 737-8.

I'm not so sure about this. AMS is slot restricted. Even if there will be slightly more slots in the future, they will be slot restricted again and likely rather soon. KLM's 737-700's have 142 seats, of which a maximum of 140 is used (depending on the number of business class seats on a particular flight, as middle seats are blocked). It would be better to use bigger planes rather than smaller ones for a slot restricted home airport.
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:29 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
well they could always go for a denser config. since the E2-195 can hold up to 146pax...But what will happen with the LCY flights if the E2-195 is not certified to fly to LCY and they have not ordered the E2-190?How long will they keep their E-190s?


146 at what pitch? 27? Cannot see them going under 31 in the front part as people connecting on a C ticket would consider twice flying them again. going for 29 in the rear alas LH could be an option, so I see 132-136 seats.

This first batch is replacing the 737-700s. If they're replacing the current E190s, there will be a LCY able aircraft in the mix.
 
inkjet7
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Re: Paris AIr Show 2019: Other Manufacturers and Engine News and Orders Thread

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:33 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
I may have missed this, but will the E195-E2s be operated by KLM mainline or at Cityhopper?


The graphics used for the announcement show a KLM Cityhopper logo. That's all we know :)

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