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777Jet
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:23 am

DominikR83 wrote:
If any pilot would commit suicide he would do it like 4U 9525 or MS 990 and not make it as complicated as he did it.


And how exactly do you know that???

It seems quite simple what happened, especially if executed by such an experienced Captain.

Once the FO followed the order to leave the cockpit (for whatever reason) that was pretty much it.

Maybe he intentionally made it as difficult to pin it on him as possible to avoid the 'shame' and 'loss of face' to his family?

iadave wrote:
Even with that, I can see some sort of very twisted romanticism with dying out on some desolate frontier like the southern indian ocean


As well as routing past your hometown for one last look hence the reason for not heading straight out into the Pacific...
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:58 am

DominikR83 wrote:
Even if the flight path was a deliberate action by the pilot,there is still the question WHY?
It doesn`t automatically have to be suicide. It could be an (unusual and rare) emergency or hijacking.
If any pilot would commit suicide he would do it like 4U 9525 or MS 990 and not make it as complicated as he did it.


The why is there, plain to see - to embarrass the Malaysian government. He knows they won't be able to handle the loss of the aircraft competently.

As for the plane going to Penang, while it may be the case that he wants to see is hometown for the last time, another case would be an emergency landing attempt. While KBR is closer, if I recall correctly it's not a 24hr airport. PEN, being a cargo port, is a 24hr airport. Maybe they did not make an attempt because by that time they were already incapacitated in a way.
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hinckley
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:09 pm

iadave wrote:
As mentioned before, you are looking for a rational reason why he would make it that complicated. If this was a pilot suicide (which was my conclusion from almost the first week once the flight path became known), that involved killing hundreds of innocent people alongside, it's an inherently irrational act. So wondering why he would go to all that trouble is that is the same as wondering why some people shoot themselves, versus hanging, or jumping off a building, or stepping in front of a train, or flying an aircraft full of people into a mountain. Even with that, I can see some sort of very twisted romanticism with dying out on some desolate frontier like the southern indian ocean. That's one of the most isolated places on earth, and the only one reachable with the fuel supply of the aircraft. If he wanted to go someplace to potentially never be found, that's the only direction he could have gone.

This is all very well said. We can guess at the reasons for why someone commits suicide, but why do any of us think we know how that mind works? After all, none of us have actually committed suicide.

DominikR83 wrote:
And i personally think that the wreck of MH 370 will never be found.

To add to everyone else's guesses, my guess is that this is exactly what the pilot wanted.

We've all heard about mass murderers who want to "go down in history", who want to "be remembered". I think that this is exactly what the pilot wanted to do. He wanted to be remembered for doing something that (at least in his mind) was spectacular, something that no one else had ever done or been able to do. And he may have succeeded.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:44 pm

iadave wrote:
As mentioned before, you are looking for a rational reason why he would make it that complicated. If this was a pilot suicide (which was my conclusion from almost the first week once the flight path became known)


You realise that Indicates a predilection to blame the pilot instead of keeping an open mind...

it's an inherently irrational act. So wondering why he would go to all that trouble is that is the same as wondering why some people shoot themselves, versus hanging, or jumping off a building, or stepping in front of a train, or flying an aircraft full of people into a mountain.


And none of those cases involves a massively complex machine dreamt up by Heath-Robinson (or Rube Goldberg, if you prefer) using household appliances, cats chasing mice, dripping candlewax etc. to trigger the gun or push themselves in front of the train. Far from it - as your own list shows - the irrational suicidee almost always takes a single decisive action to commit themselves with no turning back. MH370 was not like that.
Last edited by SomebodyInTLS on Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:50 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
DominikR83 wrote:
Even if the flight path was a deliberate action by the pilot,there is still the question WHY?
It doesn`t automatically have to be suicide. It could be an (unusual and rare) emergency or hijacking.
If any pilot would commit suicide he would do it like 4U 9525 or MS 990 and not make it as complicated as he did it.


The why is there, plain to see - to embarrass the Malaysian government. He knows they won't be able to handle the loss of the aircraft competently.


Not exactly a barnstorming statement, is it. That always seemed a tenuously shaky argument to me.

As for the plane going to Penang, while it may be the case that he wants to see is hometown for the last time, another case would be an emergency landing attempt. While KBR is closer, if I recall correctly it's not a 24hr airport. PEN, being a cargo port, is a 24hr airport. Maybe they did not make an attempt because by that time they were already incapacitated in a way.


This was postulated at the time and seems quite likely in my opinion.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
hinckley
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:57 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
And none of those cases involves a massively complex machine dreamt up by Heath-Robinson (or Rube Goldberg, if you prefer) using household appliances, cats chasing mice, dripping candlewax etc. to trigger the gun or push themselves in front of the train. Far from it - as your own list shows - the irrational suicidee almost always takes a single decisive action to commit themselves with no turning back. MH370 was not like that.

Once again . . . a poster who thinks he knows how a person committing to suicide thinks. I just don't get that.

Somebody seems to forget that Andreas Lubitz could have simply dove his plane into the Mediterranean. Instead, he used that old Rube Goldberg/dripping candlewax technique of setting his autopilot for a long, slow decent into the Alps. I guess Andreas didn't read the suicide manual before he got into the cockpit.
 
iadave
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:14 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
iadave wrote:
As mentioned before, you are looking for a rational reason why he would make it that complicated. If this was a pilot suicide (which was my conclusion from almost the first week once the flight path became known)


You realise that Indicates a predilection to blame the pilot instead of keeping an open mind...

it's an inherently irrational act. So wondering why he would go to all that trouble is that is the same as wondering why some people shoot themselves, versus hanging, or jumping off a building, or stepping in front of a train, or flying an aircraft full of people into a mountain.


And none of those cases involves a massively complex machine dreamt up by Heath-Robinson (or Rube Goldberg, if you prefer) using household appliances, cats chasing mice, dripping candlewax etc. to trigger the gun or push themselves in front of the train. Far from it - as your own list shows - the irrational suicidee almost always takes a single decisive action to commit themselves with no turning back. MH370 was not like that.


Maybe so, but I would argue it's not a terribly complex set of events, if someone wanted to die out in the middle of nowhere, hoping to never be found. Turn off the electronics, depressurize the plane, and turn back in the direction that takes to you over minimal land areas and out into the desolate ocean. He could have kept going east, but I would believe that is a far busier area with regards to shipping lanes, and much shallower waters in the south china sea.
 
GZM1
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:38 pm

Somebody asked me way up,in a derogatory way: «So, what is now your pet theory? » The answer is, I have never had a pet theory. I am willing to change my mind,I have second thoughts because I want to understand better. I have changed my mind three to four times. The things I believed once,I simply do not consider possible anymore. What I understand now, is that MH370 may have never changed course after all. After the famous last communication it must have continued towards its intended destination. The rest is unprecedented conspiracy. Pilot Suicide! Let’s move on!
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dmstorm22
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:32 pm

iadave wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
iadave wrote:
As mentioned before, you are looking for a rational reason why he would make it that complicated. If this was a pilot suicide (which was my conclusion from almost the first week once the flight path became known)


You realise that Indicates a predilection to blame the pilot instead of keeping an open mind...

it's an inherently irrational act. So wondering why he would go to all that trouble is that is the same as wondering why some people shoot themselves, versus hanging, or jumping off a building, or stepping in front of a train, or flying an aircraft full of people into a mountain.


And none of those cases involves a massively complex machine dreamt up by Heath-Robinson (or Rube Goldberg, if you prefer) using household appliances, cats chasing mice, dripping candlewax etc. to trigger the gun or push themselves in front of the train. Far from it - as your own list shows - the irrational suicidee almost always takes a single decisive action to commit themselves with no turning back. MH370 was not like that.


Maybe so, but I would argue it's not a terribly complex set of events, if someone wanted to die out in the middle of nowhere, hoping to never be found. Turn off the electronics, depressurize the plane, and turn back in the direction that takes to you over minimal land areas and out into the desolate ocean. He could have kept going east, but I would believe that is a far busier area with regards to shipping lanes, and much shallower waters in the south china sea.


If he turned East, by the time the plane runs out of fuel he would be fairly deep into the Pacific, right?
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:18 pm

Thanks for the link. That story is long, but worth the read. To me, MH370 is probably the biggest mystery in my lifetime. I tend to agree with their conclusions. Of all the theories out there, all can be eliminated by what we do know except for a deliberate act. I do hope they find MH370 one day, but it's extremely unlikely. The article brought up a good point near the end. Even if they do find it and the CVR/FDR are recovered, what we learn from it likely won't change much. If the pilot was the only one alive (as the article suggests) then the CVR will likely be dead air unless he was talking to himself (it only has ~ last two hours). The FDR might be more interesting, but since malfunction isn't suspected, it would likely only give us a better timeline of events (powering on/off stuff and pressurization).
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GZM1
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:53 pm

The article served one purpose: to « serve » you their conclusion in the end, just as arbitrary as any, carefully prepared and attractively presented. Nothing can be proven. If the culprit had been one only, we would know it from the very beginning, no doubt. This is a conspiracy where each party covers up the others, that is why there has been no definitive conclusion so far.
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RDUDDJI
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:02 pm

GZM1 wrote:
The article served one purpose: to « serve » you their conclusion in the end, just as arbitrary as any, carefully prepared and attractively presented. Nothing can be proven. If the culprit had been one only, we would know it from the very beginning, no doubt. This is a conspiracy where each party covers up the others, that is why there has been no definitive conclusion so far.


The article didn't provide a conclusion (I misspoke above). It merely pointed out that all the wild "ghost plane" type conspiracy theories can already been ruled out by what evidence has already been collected. All signs point to a human actor but we'll likely never know for certain whom that was.
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iadave
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:10 am

dmstorm22 wrote:
iadave wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:

You realise that Indicates a predilection to blame the pilot instead of keeping an open mind...



And none of those cases involves a massively complex machine dreamt up by Heath-Robinson (or Rube Goldberg, if you prefer) using household appliances, cats chasing mice, dripping candlewax etc. to trigger the gun or push themselves in front of the train. Far from it - as your own list shows - the irrational suicidee almost always takes a single decisive action to commit themselves with no turning back. MH370 was not like that.


Maybe so, but I would argue it's not a terribly complex set of events, if someone wanted to die out in the middle of nowhere, hoping to never be found. Turn off the electronics, depressurize the plane, and turn back in the direction that takes to you over minimal land areas and out into the desolate ocean. He could have kept going east, but I would believe that is a far busier area with regards to shipping lanes, and much shallower waters in the south china sea.


If he turned East, by the time the plane runs out of fuel he would be fairly deep into the Pacific, right?


The range circles I've seen are roughly out to roughly between guam & micronesia. Would have to overfly philippines directly though, and a lot more shipping traffic and probably military radar from both surface locations and naval vessels.
 
747megatop
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:08 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
747megatop wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:

When you start using words like "deliberate" with literally no evidence then you discount yourself from the discussion.

Here you go - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mala ... SKBN1KK0I9
You asked for evidence and i gave it. Now, somebody did manipulate those controls. Whether it was out of confusion, malicious attempt or attempt in getting back to KL..that is up for speculation.
I guess you just excluded yourself out of the discussion now by nitpicking in the first place.

And BTW, the only fact that we know is that the plane disappeared and it flew a zigzag pattern (again, going by what the malaysians "claim"). Rest is speculation including this theory of a an oxygen cylinder exploding (WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE?).

You oviously don't have a shred of evidence...next best thing is a personal attack and claim that i have "excluded myself from the discussion".


I'm not getting into an argument but making a couple of turns does not translate into "deliberate and evasive maneuvering" unless you choose to ascribe malicious intent.

Well; you start by saying "i am not getting into an argument" and then you start arguing and more so make accusations. I did use the word "deliberate"...as in "somebody made wilful control inputs". It is not me saying that or me "choosing" to say anything..the info is out there and well documented. I DID NOT translate what i said into "malicious intent etc. etc."; YOU did that and started making accusations.
 
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777Jet
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:02 am

hinckley wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
And none of those cases involves a massively complex machine dreamt up by Heath-Robinson (or Rube Goldberg, if you prefer) using household appliances, cats chasing mice, dripping candlewax etc. to trigger the gun or push themselves in front of the train. Far from it - as your own list shows - the irrational suicidee almost always takes a single decisive action to commit themselves with no turning back. MH370 was not like that.

Once again . . . a poster who thinks he knows how a person committing to suicide thinks. I just don't get that.

Somebody seems to forget that Andreas Lubitz could have simply dove his plane into the Mediterranean. Instead, he used that old Rube Goldberg/dripping candlewax technique of setting his autopilot for a long, slow decent into the Alps. I guess Andreas didn't read the suicide manual before he got into the cockpit.


LOL "the suicide manual" - that's gold! :)

I wonder what suicide manual Auburn Calloway (Fed Ex 705) read ;)
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:06 am

GZM1 wrote:
Somebody asked me way up,in a derogatory way: «So, what is now your pet theory? » The answer is, I have never had a pet theory. I am willing to change my mind,I have second thoughts because I want to understand better. I have changed my mind three to four times. The things I believed once,I simply do not consider possible anymore. What I understand now, is that MH370 may have never changed course after all. After the famous last communication it must have continued towards its intended destination. The rest is unprecedented conspiracy. Pilot Suicide! Let’s move on!


What drift currents did the flaperon and other debris take to get from the Northern Pacific Ocean to islands on the Western side of the Indian Ocean??? Can't wait to hear your answer!
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:22 pm

747megatop wrote:
I DID NOT translate what i said into "malicious intent etc. etc."; YOU did that and started making accusations.


Exactly what do you think the word "evasive" means?
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
747megatop
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:36 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
747megatop wrote:
I DID NOT translate what i said into "malicious intent etc. etc."; YOU did that and started making accusations.


Exactly what do you think the word "evasive" means?

You tell me...for example "fighter pilot took evasive measures when a missile was launched" [interpreted as -> to save himself..certainly not malicious in the context of this example].

Going back to the context at hand it could either be interpreted as - evasive to avoid detection OR evasive to stay clear of populated land masses to avoid potential damage to life and property on the ground. Either ways, the aircraft certainly didn't fly like a drunken bird by itself based on what has been stated and revealed by the Malaysians. Now, if it turns out that the Malaysians are/were lying to cover up then all bets are off since the Austalians, INMARSAT etc. etc. (basically the whole world) seem to have believed & acted on what the Malaysians have claimed.

Now, are you now going to continue nitpicking to to prove (your) non existent point?
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:29 pm

747megatop wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
747megatop wrote:
I DID NOT translate what i said into "malicious intent etc. etc."; YOU did that and started making accusations.


Exactly what do you think the word "evasive" means?

You tell me...for example "fighter pilot took evasive measures when a missile was launched" [interpreted as -> to save himself..certainly not malicious in the context of this example].


Ha ha ha! Took you more than a day to come back with exactly the pointless-but-literal defense I expected. Golf clap.

Of course I was talking about your use of "deliberate and evasive" in the malicious sense since - despite your protests - that IS how you meant it. It's obvious. Everyone would read it that way and you know it, because that is exactly the sense you wanted to portray when you said it.

I'm done. Bye.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
GZM1
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:09 pm

747megatop wrote:
Going back to the context at hand it could either be interpreted as - evasive to avoid detection OR evasive to stay clear of populated land masses to avoid potential damage to life and property on the ground.

Interesting point. It is strange but a few days ago I was discussing that with a friend of mine. He had the same opinion: that whoever was at the controls he seemed to have done exactly that. There was one thing that « he » or « they » did not know, he said, and that was the existence of Inmarsat. « Their purpose was to make the plane disappear altogether and disintegrate into small pieces... »
It seems now it’s the fifth time that I change my mind. A new theory is emerging.
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GZM1
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:07 am

hinckley wrote:
Once again . . . a poster who thinks he knows how a person committing to suicide thinks. I just don't get that.

Somebody seems to forget that Andreas Lubitz could have simply dove his plane into the Mediterranean. Instead, he used that old Rube Goldberg/dripping candlewax technique of setting his autopilot for a long, slow decent into the Alps. I guess Andreas didn't read the suicide manual before he got into the cockpit.

Now, how do you know that? You have magical powers? The other night I was discussing MH370 with a friend of mine who is from Germany and knows more than you. Among other things he said that it is doubtful that Andreas crashed the plane on purpose. The whole affair boils down to economics, he said. It is what gets out to the public that matters and that it should have the least financial impact. So before even the committee had time to proceed with the investigation, an announcement was made by the airline, making the French guy who was head of the committee furious. That’s what he told me.
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GZM1
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:19 pm

There is one more comment I would like to make: Somebody said that the captain got everything right and managed to disappear without a trace, baffling everyone. But the logical question follows: how can you say “without a trace” when he left all the incriminating evidence in his own home? When he could just have thrown it away with the rubbish and none would have been the wiser? My friend tells me this gives the impression that those who practiced all that, must have been the ones who planted it in his home....
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acavpics
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:30 am

I keep wondering though, when the cabin depressurized (for whatever reason), why didn't O2 masks in the cabin deploy? If they did, then surely the FA's and pax should been able to grab them and remain aware of what was going on, right?
 
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GE90man
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:24 am

acavpics wrote:
I keep wondering though, when the cabin depressurized (for whatever reason), why didn't O2 masks in the cabin deploy? If they did, then surely the FA's and pax should been able to grab them and remain aware of what was going on, right?


O2 masks for the pax only last around 15 minutes- just enough for the crew to discover the depressurization and descend to a safe altitude. After that, the masks would be useless at 40000 feet.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:50 am

GZM1 wrote:
There is one more comment I would like to make: Somebody said that the captain got everything right and managed to disappear without a trace, baffling everyone. But the logical question follows: how can you say “without a trace” when he left all the incriminating evidence in his own home? When he could just have thrown it away with the rubbish and none would have been the wiser? My friend tells me this gives the impression that those who practiced all that, must have been the ones who planted it in his home....


Neither you nor your friend understand the Malaysian way of life, which is why you see this as a plot hole.

Having dealt with Malaysian authorities all my life, I can easily explain why - because the pilot had a low opinion of the Malaysian authorities that he thinks they will overlook the so-called "incriminating evidence" in his own home.
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747megatop
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:55 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
747megatop wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:

Exactly what do you think the word "evasive" means?

You tell me...for example "fighter pilot took evasive measures when a missile was launched" [interpreted as -> to save himself..certainly not malicious in the context of this example].


Ha ha ha! Took you more than a day to come back with exactly the pointless-but-literal defense I expected. Golf clap.

Of course I was talking about your use of "deliberate and evasive" in the malicious sense since - despite your protests - that IS how you meant it. It's obvious. Everyone would read it that way and you know it, because that is exactly the sense you wanted to portray when you said it.

I'm done. Bye.

I let it take a day so that things can sink in slowly since you can't really process things that fast.

And, yes, i think you ARE done because you have nothing really to offer to the discussion other than nitpicking.
 
747megatop
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:09 pm

GZM1 wrote:
747megatop wrote:
Going back to the context at hand it could either be interpreted as - evasive to avoid detection OR evasive to stay clear of populated land masses to avoid potential damage to life and property on the ground.

Interesting point. It is strange but a few days ago I was discussing that with a friend of mine. He had the same opinion: that whoever was at the controls he seemed to have done exactly that. There was one thing that « he » or « they » did not know, he said, and that was the existence of Inmarsat. « Their purpose was to make the plane disappear altogether and disintegrate into small pieces... »
It seems now it’s the fifth time that I change my mind. A new theory is emerging.

And again...all of this is based on just 2 available facts/information/official statements/positions whatever you want to call it

1) Malaysians say MH 370 followed a zizag flight path. [can't remember if this fact was duly vetted by officials from other countries or what this a "claim" by the Malaysians and released without adequate proof or evidence]
2) INMARSAT's conclusion that the aircraft flew for 7+ hours and it's estimation that the aircaft could be anywhere along those arcs relative to the satellite.

If any 1 of the above 2 are found incorrect (during the course of future analysis/invesigation/revelation) all bets are off...MH 370 wreckage could be anywhere (Pacific or Indian Ocean or some remote land mass).
 
Spar
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:11 am

747megatop wrote:
And again...all of this is based on just 2 available facts/information/official statements/positions whatever you want to call it

1) Malaysians say MH 370 followed a zizag flight path. [can't remember if this fact was duly vetted by officials from other countries or what this a "claim" by the Malaysians and released without adequate proof or evidence]
2) INMARSAT's conclusion that the aircraft flew for 7+ hours and it's estimation that the aircaft could be anywhere along those arcs relative to the satellite.

If any 1 of the above 2 are found incorrect (during the course of future analysis/invesigation/revelation) all bets are off...MH 370 wreckage could be anywhere (Pacific or Indian Ocean or some remote land mass).
There are many more than two points of information about the early portion of the flight path (from IGARI to 10 miles past MEKAR); that entire flight path is known in great detail. We begin with the known performance capabilities of a 777 and the known time it was over IGARI and work from there.

There were sightings by the Thai radar at ABTOK which is adjacent to Koto Bharu and these data are all in agreement (777 performance, times and locations). A few miles past Koto Bharu, the plane was picked up by the radar at Butterworth KL ATCC (17:38:55 6° 8'28.90"N 102° 2'58.72"E) from there on until it passed out of Butterworth's range (with a few dropouts because of terrain blocking the line of sight) the flight path is known with near exact certainty; there is some imprecision because of the way the data points had to be calculated from the slant range of the KL ATCC radar; but in any event, after the plane passed out of range for KL ATCC if it held a GS of about 514kys, that puts it 10 miles past MEKAR at 18:25, which is where and when Hishammuddin said it passed out of Malaysian military radar range.
:checkmark:
The plane showed up to Inmarsat three minutes later on the 18:28 ping ring.
:checkmark:

Beyond that, we can make assumptions from known facts. Whoever was flying (Z) would have wanted to stay out of range of the Indonesian radar at Sebang and after the turn south he would have also kept beyond the range of the radar at Sibolga. Beyond Sibolga we have only Inmarsat to guide us.

I think "Zig Zag flight" is an extremely poor description of this flight path.
 
llintner
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:10 am

blockski wrote:
Austin787 wrote:
blockski wrote:

Ok, but again - you can't just selectively pick and choose some evidence but not others. If there were an emergency on board that somehow disabled the transponder and communications, you'd expect (as you note) them to divert to the nearest suitable airport. But they didn't do that.

Maybe the pilots felt going back to Malaysia, possibly Penang, was the best option.


But again, that doesn't fit all of the evidence. Because they didn't try to land in Penang; the plane then made a series of controlled turns before heading south over the Indian Ocean.


You might want to do some research into the effects of hypoxia on the brain. When starved for oxygen we do strange things. Those things you see as deliberate acts, may very well have been an attempt to divert to the nearest airport, but incorrectly executed in a hypoxic state before losing consciousness. Until we find real evidence, everyone is just speculating as to what happened and "selectively picking and choosing some evidence".
 
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:40 am

After browsing through the Atlantic article I notice the omission of one important piece of information. Langewiesche never raises the point that when Zaharie signed out of the Kuala Lumpur FIS but failed to report in to the Vietnamese ATC he exploited a loophole in the ATC system that gave MH370 an extra hour before it would be officially reported missing. Although this turned out to probably not have made any difference given the lax response by the Kuala Lumpur ATC, it did create a condition where a search for MH-370 could not have been implemented until 19:20 utc at which time 9MMRO (no longer MH-370) was scheduled to be (and was) in the Southern Ocean south of the Indonesian radar site at Sibolga, thus beyond any possible radar coverage. There are many facets of the MH-370 story that fit like a glove, but this particular facet fit is extraordinary and Langewiesche should have mentioned it.

I also am disappointed at how he played down the Malaysian government's blatant coverup of the plane's flight path back across the Malaysian peninsula. They allowed the search in the South China Sea to continue for eight days when they knew on the first night that MH-370 had flown across the peninsula and turned north. If you read between the lines in the article you can pick up on some of it, but IMO he is still doing coverup lite many years later. Disgusting!
 
Spar
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:51 am

llintner wrote:
You might want to do some research into the effects of hypoxia on the brain.

You must be a comedian. The precision of the flight path is obvious. He predicted the Malaysian response perfectly, played the KL / Vietnamese ATC like a carnival huckster, split the Malaysian Thai border, kept perfectly clear of the Indonesian FIS and had his timing for passing beyond Sibolga almost down to the minute.

Nothing was left to chance.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:51 am

Spar wrote:
I also am disappointed at how he played down the Malaysian government's blatant coverup of the plane's flight path back across the Malaysian peninsula. They allowed the search in the South China Sea to continue for eight days when they knew on the first night that MH-370 had flown across the peninsula and turned north. If you read between the lines in the article you can pick up on some of it, but IMO he is still doing coverup lite many years later. Disgusting!


Facts doesn't support you to be honest, because I clearly recall the Malaysian government launching a search of the Malacca Straits as early as day 2. This was lost in the melee.

I can understand why they continued with the South China Sea search, while at the same time mounting a search in the Malacca Straits because of many erroneous reports of debris around Vietnam waters.

https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia ... cca/631587

https://www.news.com.au/malaysia-airlin ... f447323c5b
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Spar
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:11 am

Your article tells of the search being extended, but Malaysia didn't call off the search in the SCS until the 16th. Other countries figured it out on their own - Vietnam just quit the search after getting no answers from Malaysia and India kept searching in the SCS until the 16th when they were finally notified by Malaysia that the plane wasn't there.

This is my note on the topic: March 16: India suspends its search as it waits for Malaysia to say whether it should be searching at all. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... w-ups.html

My statement that "They allowed the search in the South China Sea to continue for eight days when they knew on the first night that MH-370 had flown across the peninsula and turned north" is completely accurate.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:31 am

Spar wrote:
Your article tells of the search being extended, but Malaysia didn't call off the search in the SCS until the 16th. Other countries figured it out on their own - Vietnam just quit the search after getting no answers from Malaysia and India kept searching in the SCS until the 16th when they were finally notified by Malaysia that the plane wasn't there.

This is my note on the topic: March 16: India suspends its search as it waits for Malaysia to say whether it should be searching at all. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... w-ups.html

My statement that "They allowed the search in the South China Sea to continue for eight days when they knew on the first night that MH-370 had flown across the peninsula and turned north" is completely accurate.


Not really. Like I said, they immediately extended the search, but didn't fully commit to a search up the Straits because of false positives AND the fact that they weren't able to confirm that the radar plot WAS from MH370 until a few days later. Remember, they're dealing with primary radar data.
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Spar
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:13 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Spar wrote:
Your article tells of the search being extended, but Malaysia didn't call off the search in the SCS until the 16th. Other countries figured it out on their own - Vietnam just quit the search after getting no answers from Malaysia and India kept searching in the SCS until the 16th when they were finally notified by Malaysia that the plane wasn't there.

This is my note on the topic: March 16: India suspends its search as it waits for Malaysia to say whether it should be searching at all. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... w-ups.html

My statement that "They allowed the search in the South China Sea to continue for eight days when they knew on the first night that MH-370 had flown across the peninsula and turned north" is completely accurate.


Not really. Like I said, they immediately extended the search, but didn't fully commit to a search up the Straits because of false positives AND the fact that they weren't able to confirm that the radar plot WAS from MH370 until a few days later. Remember, they're dealing with primary radar data.
You're just making it up. There was only one airplane in the sky that night and it was 9MMRO. The radar at Pulau Penang tracked the flight from IGARI out to 10 miles past MEKAR. Shortly before dawn, at 7:24 am, Malaysia released a statement saying that contact was lost at 2:40 and SAR efforts are underway, a bit later it was corrected to 2:15. At that time, the plane was at MEKAR +10. They had read the radar tapes before they released that statement, that's where that information came from. They later backtracked and denied that version, until later when they accepted it again. Sometime around dawn, Pulau Penang was visited by a VIP which is assumed to have been Hishammuddin himself.

So "they" didn't search in the Strait, it was the British and the Americans who were doing that. Why would Malaysia search in the Strait, their radar had tracked it flying northwest out of the Strait?

Six days later, on the 14th, the NYT and Reuters both carried stories stating that the plane was last seen "at 2:15 a.m., 200 miles northwest of Penang Island".

NYT: "Military radar last recorded the aircraft flying at an altitude of 29,500 feet, about 200 miles northwest of Penang and headed toward India’s Andaman Islands." http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/world ... ml?hp&_r=1

Reuters: "Malaysia's air force chief said on Wednesday an aircraft that could have been the missing plane was plotted on military radar at 2:15 a.m., 200 miles northwest of Penang Island off Malaysia's west coast."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/ ... DG20140314

Later on the14th:
Malaysian defense minister and acting transport minister Hishammuddin Hussein told journalists the report was "inaccurate". "I would like to refer to news reports suggesting that the aircraft may have continued flying for some time after the last contact," "As Malaysia Airlines will confirm shortly, those reports are inaccurate."
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_ ... 40314.html


If you've followed the story you would know all this, as it is in the original MH-370 thread. If you haven't actually spent any time or effort on this subject, the result is the same; you're just making it up.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:25 am

Spar wrote:
You're just making it up. There was only one airplane in the sky that night and it was 9MMRO. The radar at Pulau Penang tracked the flight from IGARI out to 10 miles past MEKAR. Shortly before dawn, at 7:24 am, Malaysia released a statement saying that contact was lost at 2:40 and SAR efforts are underway, a bit later it was corrected to 2:15. At that time, the plane was at MEKAR +10. They had read the radar tapes before they released that statement, that's where that information came from. They later backtracked and denied that version, until later when they accepted it again. Sometime around dawn, Pulau Penang was visited by a VIP which is assumed to have been Hishammuddin himself.

So "they" didn't search in the Strait, it was the British and the Americans who were doing that. Why would Malaysia search in the Strait, their radar had tracked it flying northwest out of the Strait?

Six days later, on the 14th, the NYT and Reuters both carried stories stating that the plane was last seen "at 2:15 a.m., 200 miles northwest of Penang Island".

NYT: "Military radar last recorded the aircraft flying at an altitude of 29,500 feet, about 200 miles northwest of Penang and headed toward India’s Andaman Islands." http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/world ... ml?hp&_r=1

Reuters: "Malaysia's air force chief said on Wednesday an aircraft that could have been the missing plane was plotted on military radar at 2:15 a.m., 200 miles northwest of Penang Island off Malaysia's west coast."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/ ... DG20140314

Later on the14th:
Malaysian defense minister and acting transport minister Hishammuddin Hussein told journalists the report was "inaccurate". "I would like to refer to news reports suggesting that the aircraft may have continued flying for some time after the last contact," "As Malaysia Airlines will confirm shortly, those reports are inaccurate."
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_ ... 40314.html


If you've followed the story you would know all this, as it is in the original MH-370 thread. If you haven't actually spent any time or effort on this subject, the result is the same; you're just making it up.


Not only have I read the threads, I've even participated in it from early on.

You're basing your theory on conjecture. I'm basing my opinions on information I gleaned from people who were involved in the response.
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Spar
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:40 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
You're basing your theory on conjecture. I'm basing my opinions on information I gleaned from people who were involved in the response.
I provided factual information and provided links to back my information up.
You're trying to claim secret inside information that only you have. You're a charlatan.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:46 am

Spar wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
You're basing your theory on conjecture. I'm basing my opinions on information I gleaned from people who were involved in the response.
I provided factual information and provided links to back my information up.
You're trying to claim secret inside information that only you have. You're a charlatan.


Note that I said my opinions. Not facts.

But I do argue that your "facts" are also your opinions, not absolute facts.

Also, to claim that there's only one plane in the sky that night is laughable. Where do you think planes heading from SIN, BWN & KUL heading to Europe & North Asia are flying over to get to their destinations? The same airspace as MH370.
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Spar
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:10 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Spar wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
You're basing your theory on conjecture. I'm basing my opinions on information I gleaned from people who were involved in the response.
I provided factual information and provided links to back my information up.
You're trying to claim secret inside information that only you have. You're a charlatan.


Note that I said my opinions. Not facts.

But I do argue that your "facts" are also your opinions, not absolute facts.

Also, to claim that there's only one plane in the sky that night is laughable. Where do you think planes heading from SIN, BWN & KUL heading to Europe & North Asia are flying over to get to their destinations? The same airspace as MH370.
No none of them would fly from KL to IGARI and across the Malaysian peninsula. Traffic in the strait would be up the middle and would not be possible to be confused with the plane that just flew across the peninsula, The radar equipment at Pulau Penang was and is top notch.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:26 am

Spar wrote:
No none of them would fly from KL to IGARI and across the Malaysian peninsula. Traffic in the strait would be up the middle and would not be possible to be confused with the plane that just flew across the peninsula, The radar equipment at Pulau Penang was and is top notch.


You assumed that the radar would be fully manned and that if it's manned, the ones manning it would be fully alert.

This is where knowledge of the local culture would come in handy...something you can't glean of Reuters news reports.
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Spar
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:32 am

Actually, I'm assuming that the Pulau Penang radar wasn't manned in real time. My assumption is that they didn't get anybody to the radar set until hours after the flight had gone out of range. The information that was released at 7:24 almost certainly came from the radar log.

BTW
I'm done for the night.
 
747megatop
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:45 pm

Spar wrote:
I think "Zig Zag flight" is an extremely poor description of this flight path.

Sorry, probably bad choice of words...but that was the best i could come up with when trying to describe what you described in detail...a path that was not straight but with a series of (apparently well calculated?) turns.
 
Spar
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:09 pm

747megatop wrote:
Spar wrote:
I think "Zig Zag flight" is an extremely poor description of this flight path.

Sorry, probably bad choice of words...but that was the best i could come up with when trying to describe what you described in detail...a path that was not straight but with a series of (apparently well calculated?) turns.
It's me that should apologize to you for being nitpicky with one of the few here who has it right. There are people posting here (and elsewhere) who have consistently been trying to undermine understanding of what actually happened from the very early days after 9M-MRO was reported missing. The MH-370 thread even had the ongoing presence of a professional public relations type who worked diligently to derail an understanding of the event. Then there were the people who would never allow a pilot to be blamed in this, an aviation forum. Much of that resistance to truth has dissipated over the years, but it's not completely gone.
 
Spar
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:47 pm

hinckley wrote:
iadave wrote:
As mentioned before, you are looking for a rational reason why he would make it that complicated. If this was a pilot suicide (which was my conclusion from almost the first week once the flight path became known), that involved killing hundreds of innocent people alongside, it's an inherently irrational act. So wondering why he would go to all that trouble is that is the same as wondering why some people shoot themselves, versus hanging, or jumping off a building, or stepping in front of a train, or flying an aircraft full of people into a mountain. Even with that, I can see some sort of very twisted romanticism with dying out on some desolate frontier like the southern indian ocean. That's one of the most isolated places on earth, and the only one reachable with the fuel supply of the aircraft. If he wanted to go someplace to potentially never be found, that's the only direction he could have gone.

This is all very well said. We can guess at the reasons for why someone commits suicide, but why do any of us think we know how that mind works? After all, none of us have actually committed suicide.
I think that the focus on suicide is misplaced; I believe Zharie saw his end as a soldier's death on the field of battle.

hinckley wrote:
DominikR83 wrote:
And i personally think that the wreck of MH 370 will never be found.

To add to everyone else's guesses, my guess is that this is exactly what the pilot wanted.

We've all heard about mass murderers who want to "go down in history", who want to "be remembered". I think that this is exactly what the pilot wanted to do. He wanted to be remembered for doing something that (at least in his mind) was spectacular, something that no one else had ever done or been able to do. And he may have succeeded.
I agree that he never wanted to be found; but I also believe that he wanted to be more or less forgotten, he just wanted to be one of the 238 missing.

His plan failed in one major aspect. I am sure that his intent was for MH-370 to have disappeared into thin air, leaving behind no trace. That would have been a much more dramatic finale for MH-370. And remember, it almost worked out that way. Hishammuddin tried his best to cover up the fact that the plane had turned around and passed over the Malaysian peninsula. If Hishammuddin had succeeded in hiding the egress of MH-370, that's the exact scenario that we would be faced with today; but the Inmarsat data surfaced out of the blue, so to speak. The Inmarsat data made it impossible for Hishammuddin to hide the flight path.

I feel strongly that something went wrong with Zaharie's plan, something was supposed to have been uncovered that never came to light. I am certain that Zaharie thought that this event would bring down Najib Razak's government. Unfortunately, I have no idea what it is, I can't even guess. The answer to that is still locked up in Malaysia somewhere and it may never come to light because the new government, the present government, is tainted by the fact that that the disappearance of MH-370 was carried out by one of its greatest boosters: Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah. So there will be no re-opening of that case.
 
cskok8
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:47 am

Spar wrote:
Actually, I'm assuming that the Pulau Penang radar wasn't manned in real time. My assumption is that they didn't get anybody to the radar set until hours after the flight had gone out of range. The information that was released at 7:24 almost certainly came from the radar log.

BTW
I'm done for the night.


When the Air Force chief said that they had tracked the aircraft flying across the northern border he was asked "was it seen in real time". He answered, no, on playback
 
Spar
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:11 am

cskok8 wrote:
When the Air Force chief said that they had tracked the aircraft flying across the northern border he was asked "was it seen in real time". He answered, no, on playback

It would be great if you could still find the source for that. The military was very open for the first couple of days, then on the morning of the 11th, the investigation was taken from the military and from there on run by Hishammuddin and of course everybody clammed up tighter than a drum.

On the morning of the 11th Hishammuddin issued his notorious statement: "I wish to state that I did not make any such statements as above", and that was that.

I would like to have some of the links from those early days, if any still exist.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:08 am

Spar wrote:
His plan failed in one major aspect. I am sure that his intent was for MH-370 to have disappeared into thin air, leaving behind no trace. That would have been a much more dramatic finale for MH-370. And remember, it almost worked out that way. Hishammuddin tried his best to cover up the fact that the plane had turned around and passed over the Malaysian peninsula. If Hishammuddin had succeeded in hiding the egress of MH-370, that's the exact scenario that we would be faced with today; but the Inmarsat data surfaced out of the blue, so to speak. The Inmarsat data made it impossible for Hishammuddin to hide the flight path.


If Hishamuddin wanted to cover up the radar info, he would have done it from day one. He would have not let General Rodzali Daud go out there in the press conference to say what he said. I mean he even chaired a press conference on the 10th. Why did he wait until the 12th to "take over", when he could have denied what Rodzali said immediately on the 10th.

It just doesn't make a lick of sense.

Hishamuddin's PC on 10/3/2014 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASBG2gJDyMU
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Spar
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:15 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Spar wrote:
Why did he wait until the 12th to "take over

Because the Inmarsat information was given to him on the 11th.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:19 am

Spar wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Spar wrote:
Why did he wait until the 12th to "take over

Because the Inmarsat information was given to him on the 11th.


The General made his statement on the 9th. He could have denied it on the 10th, Inmarsat data or not.
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Spar
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Re: The Atlantic Tackles MH370 Final Conclusions

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:44 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Spar wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Because the Inmarsat information was given to him on the 11th.


The General made his statement on the 9th. He could have denied it on the 10th, Inmarsat data or not.

I don't understand the point of these suppositions.

Once one realizes that as Hishammuddin gave that press conference he knew, and had known for two days that the plane had crossed the peninsula and flown northwest out of the Malacca Strait towards open ocean; yet at the time of that press conference, 14 nations were searching in the South China sea for the wreckage of an airplane that couldn't possibly have been in the South China Sea. Looking for a plane that Hishammuddin knew couldn't possibly be in the SCS.

He knew that because he (his people) had been told by the Vietnamese that the plane had turned around and the Thai military had publically stated that they had tracked the plane returning to the Malaysian coast at Koto Bharu, but most of all he knew that the plane had transited the Strait because he had seen the radar log which showed the exact flight path of 9MMRO from takeoff at KL to IGARI and back across the peninsula and NW. The radar at Pulau Penang had even kept accurate record of the altitude information for the flight. He had it all in detail.

That press conference is a damming piece of evidence once one knows the background information.

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