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mercure1
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Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:27 pm

It has been announced internally that Air France will hold off on cabin refit of A380 fleet as previously planned to commence in 2020.

Last November, AF announced it would reduce A380 fleet from 10 to 5 frames starting W19/20 season while launching overdue cabin refit project on remaining frames starting in 2020.

Update is that company now will review future of these 5 frames to determine if cost of refit of the outdated cabins which will exceed EUR30-40mil each is a viable business case. Seems this is driven by new CEO Smith.

CAPA managed to pick up the news.
https://centreforaviation.com/news/air- ... ceo-913086
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Cointrin330
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:30 pm

Air France does not need the A380. The plane is too large for their network and an inefficient way for it to feed traffic into CDG. The future of the AF long haul fleet really does need to be more aligned to KLM's around the 777, A330, 787 and the A350s and the way carriers that rely on connections work. The A380 works for a select few carriers and airport situations.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:35 pm

I think one of the problems with the A380 is that it was ordered in an entirely different era for airlines.

AF placed its A380 order way back in summer of 2000, but did not get its first frame till 2009 with all the Airbus delivery delays. Fast forward to 2019, the aviation world and manner the market has played out is quite different.
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UPlog
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:36 pm

Makes sense.

The economics of a 5 frame subfleet can’t be very compelling.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:39 pm

Does AF really have 200m Eur to spend on 5 aircraft that could not be better used?
Perhaps BA might pick up one of the retiring craft if the price is right.
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Polot
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:45 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Does AF really have 200m Eur to spend on 5 aircraft that could not be better used?
Perhaps BA might pick up one of the retiring craft if the price is right.

BA has already complained about the cost of retrofitting used A380s in the past. I don’t see them interested in 5 frames with different engines that will also need to be retrofitted to BA standards.

BA has decided on 779s. It is time to accept that they have just been full of hot air when it comes to acquiring more A380s. BA have had plenty of opportunities but not once pulled the trigger. They essentially only want them if they can get the frame for free.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:49 pm

RIP skywhale. You should never have been built, but now that you have, an ignoble death is all that you'll get.
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Francoflier
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:52 pm

High density re-config for the Antilles and Pacific islands, a-la ANA?
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LAXintl
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:11 pm

Indeed not sure what the business case would be to operate a small 5 aircraft subfleet, Even in best case cant be a very compelling business case. Not sure any AF routes really need the A380 for its capacity.

Polot wrote:
BA has already complained about the cost of retrofitting used A380s in the past. I don’t see them interested in 5 frames with different engines that will also need to be retrofitted to BA standards.
BA has decided on 779s. It is time to accept that they have just been full of hot air when it comes to acquiring more A380s. BA have had plenty of opportunities but not once pulled the trigger. They essentially only want them if they can get the frame for free.


I fully expect A380 values to crater once it becomes clear that growing number of frames are headed for parking. BA might yet still get its chance...
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:58 pm

AF needs Boeing 777X
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Jetty
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:28 pm

Francoflier wrote:
High density re-config for the Antilles and Pacific islands, a-la ANA?

How many of those destination see more than 1 daily 77W? I only find RUN, FDF and PTP. They could combine the plane in this configuration with KL to add CUR. The good thing is these destination aren't very frequency sensitive. But not enough destinations for a viable fleet.
Last edited by Jetty on Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:37 pm

UPlog wrote:
Makes sense.

The economics of a 5 frame subfleet can’t be very compelling.


It may have been ordered in a different era but a subfleet of ten was a dumb idea for AF even then. They just don't have the long-haul routes with the demand to have an efficient fleet size of A380s.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:47 pm

musman9853 wrote:
RIP skywhale. You should never have been built, but now that you have, an ignoble death is all that you'll get.


That would have been a shame. And probably comes from a person, who has never flown in one. I for one am very happy, that the flying public had (and still will have for years to come) the chance to enjoy the comfort (space/quietness/etc) of this plane. It will always be one of the highlights in the history of aviation, like the 747 or the Concorde.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:52 pm

LAXintl wrote:
I fully expect A380 values to crater once it becomes clear that growing number of frames are headed for parking. BA might yet still get its chance...

AF's chance is even better, it has five frames already with its choice of engines and many elements of its preferred config in house already, along with no concerns about the past history of the frame, yet it is 'studying' the way forward instead of just getting on with the plan of record.

LH looked at its contract with Airbus and said please take back these A380s.

I think it's pretty clear WW's statements about used A380s were posturing to get lower prices on 777x and once that worked we aren't hearing a thing more about used A380s from WW.

Now we have what I predicted in earlier threads, A380 will wind down sooner rather than later, since they will not be getting any more efficient and they will be getting more costly to operate once the production line is closed.

Airbus had a chance to get the A380 on at least a late 2010s level of performance with a NEO and new wing tips but could not get even that done, so its early/mid 2000s level of performance is what it it stuck with as its maintenance holidays are ending.
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:53 pm

Jetty wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
High density re-config for the Antilles and Pacific islands, a-la ANA?

How many of those destination see more than 1 daily 77W? I only find RUN, FDF and PTP. They could combine the plane in this configuration with KL to add CUA. The good thing is these destination aren't very frequency sensitive. But not enough destinations for a viable fleet.


PTP is 13w 77W, RUN is 12 and FDF 11. The COI airframes AF uses on those flights actually carry more Y seats than the 388. 422 vs 389.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:21 pm

How on earth can new seats cost 50 million Euros per aircraft? Surely they could find suppliers that charge reasonable prices for this stuff. It's not as if most of these seats are even particularly comfortable or advanced.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:48 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
How on earth can new seats cost 50 million Euros per aircraft? Surely they could find suppliers that charge reasonable prices for this stuff. It's not as if most of these seats are even particularly comfortable or advanced.


You might want to check out Swiss blog post detailing their recent A340 cabin refurbishment project.

It took 6 weeks and cost CHF 20mil per aircraft.

https://blog.swiss.com/en/2019/06/new-cabin-interior/
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:53 pm

LAXintl wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
How on earth can new seats cost 50 million Euros per aircraft? Surely they could find suppliers that charge reasonable prices for this stuff. It's not as if most of these seats are even particularly comfortable or advanced.


You might want to check out Swiss blog post detailing their recent A340 cabin refurbishment project.

It took 6 weeks and cost CHF 20mil per aircraft.

https://blog.swiss.com/en/2019/06/new-cabin-interior/


Thanks, very interesting stuff. I still think this is probably an area where airlines should look at to see if they can reduce their costs because these amounts seem totally disproportionate.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:58 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
It may have been ordered in a different era but a subfleet of ten was a dumb idea for AF even then. They just don't have the long-haul routes with the demand to have an efficient fleet size of A380s.


At an airline the size of AF, I expect a subfleet of ten was about the bare minimum necessary for reasonably efficient operations. If necessary you can schedule near full utilization in the summer (maybe keep ~0.5 frames' worth of slack in the schedule or just deal with the rebooking if you have to substitute a 77W) and use the winter for heavy maintenance. A subfleet of just five won't be efficient for maintenance or pilot scheduling.

The bigger issue at AF is also what would be one of their greatest advantages if they weren't in France: they have their key hub at an airport with few airfield capacity constraints. In this context, it is far more straightforward to grow with smaller aircraft (A330, 787, A350, 777) at higher frequency. Moreover, one of the key airports cited to justify the A380 business case (LHR) is largely a connecting market from PAR as much of the O&D traffic will prefer the Eurostar. JFK is near enough that frequency matters from Paris. For pretty much everywhere they fly the A380, they will almost certainly enjoy superior unit costs with A350 or 77X -- so why invest ~$200 million on refurbishing a small subfleet which is probably not optimal for their operation?

peterinlisbon wrote:
How on earth can new seats cost 50 million Euros per aircraft? Surely they could find suppliers that charge reasonable prices for this stuff. It's not as if most of these seats are even particularly comfortable or advanced.


I don't think it's about the cost of the seats, but rather the cost of rearranging the highly-customized cabin.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:00 pm

Francoflier wrote:
High density re-config for the Antilles and Pacific islands, a-la ANA?


Arizona for ~ten months, then Hajj.
 
EBiafore99
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:00 pm

Doesn't surprise me. IMHO, AF (along with BA and LH) really only ordered the A380 to support Airbus and they knew the aircraft had limited profit potential (i.e. - routes). As mentioned earlier, these aircraft were ordered in an entirely different era for the airline, so maybe they were willing accept the limited profit potential for the A380. However, in today's environment, they can no longer accept the limited profitability.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:01 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
How on earth can new seats cost 50 million Euros per aircraft? Surely they could find suppliers that charge reasonable prices for this stuff. It's not as if most of these seats are even particularly comfortable or advanced.


You might want to check out Swiss blog post detailing their recent A340 cabin refurbishment project.

It took 6 weeks and cost CHF 20mil per aircraft.

https://blog.swiss.com/en/2019/06/new-cabin-interior/


Thanks, very interesting stuff. I still think this is probably an area where airlines should look at to see if they can reduce their costs because these amounts seem totally disproportionate.


The costs for a heavy check are large because you have to disassemble large portions of the aircraft. An investment of millions for a piece of capital worth tens (or hundreds) of millions of dollars or Euros is not hugely out of line for capital-intensive businesses.

Many components are precision made (especially in the engines) and must use approved parts. You can put cheapo Chinese-made brake pads on your car, but aviation authorities will ground you for using cheapo parts on aircraft.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:02 pm

I think AF-KL should drop the A380’s and focus on simplifying their fleet. They’re lacking behind almost any other airline group and they need to get their shit together.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:09 pm

The CDG-MEX Flight is always full... maybe the price is way too low, to make it a good business case.... Bummer I love the 380
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:22 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
How on earth can new seats cost 50 million Euros per aircraft? Surely they could find suppliers that charge reasonable prices for this stuff. It's not as if most of these seats are even particularly comfortable or advanced.


You might want to check out Swiss blog post detailing their recent A340 cabin refurbishment project.

It took 6 weeks and cost CHF 20mil per aircraft.

https://blog.swiss.com/en/2019/06/new-cabin-interior/


Thanks, very interesting stuff. I still think this is probably an area where airlines should look at to see if they can reduce their costs because these amounts seem totally disproportionate.


I'm sure they've thought of this before.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:32 pm

Revelation wrote:

I think it's pretty clear WW's statements about used A380s were posturing to get lower prices on 777x and once that worked we aren't hearing a thing more about used A380s from WW.




He just mentioned "six more A380s would make sense" for BA in an interview with German Aerotelegraph:

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/interview ... inn-machen

Says that the "price needs to be right" since cabin refit would be very expensive, but going up to 18 A380s would make sense for BA...
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:41 pm

Lilienthal wrote:
Revelation wrote:

I think it's pretty clear WW's statements about used A380s were posturing to get lower prices on 777x and once that worked we aren't hearing a thing more about used A380s from WW.




He just mentioned "six more A380s would make sense" for BA in an interview with German Aerotelegraph:

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/interview ... inn-machen

Says that the "price needs to be right" since cabin refit would be very expensive, but going up to 18 A380s would make sense for BA...


Yeah I can see that happening. A380 is the only true aircraft that can replace low-J/mid-J B744 in BA fleet as second hand aircraft. A35K is great and capacity is nice, but no first class and BA has to compromise in Y capacity. In short term, second hand A380 would be ideal if the price is right,
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:47 pm

A small fleet of 5.... this is a signal to other airlines, this aircrafts time is up at AF...

and does anyone care to make an offer.
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:56 pm

what will become of the "electronic art gallery" ???
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:02 pm

chonetsao wrote:
A380 is the only true aircraft that can replace low-J/mid-J B744 in BA fleet as second hand aircraft. A35K is great and capacity is nice, but no first class and BA has to compromise in Y capacity. In short term, second hand A380 would be ideal if the price is right,


You do realize that "no first class" is a configuration decision which is entirely up to the airline's management, right? And that if BA management felt there were a need for first class in the markets which will be served by A35J, they'd add first class to at least some of the aircraft?

Long-haul first class is largely going away because the value proposition over modern business class products is so limited. Relatively few companies will pay for first (but will pay for business) and the target market of travelers who are willing to pay for first over business but can't afford a private jet is small.

Lilienthal wrote:
Says that the "price needs to be right" since cabin refit would be very expensive, but going up to 18 A380s would make sense for BA


It seems that "right" price would be scrap value or less, given that the deal they had rejected included used A380s at prices that were little more than scrap. Talk is cheap.
Last edited by ScottB on Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
h1fl1er
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:03 pm

we'll see accelerated removal of this frame I predict in every airline
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:12 pm

EBiafore99 wrote:
Doesn't surprise me. IMHO, AF (along with BA and LH) really only ordered the A380 to support Airbus and they knew the aircraft had limited profit potential (i.e. - routes).

Not true in the case of BA. They were privatised many years ago; meaning that political motives in sourcing decisions will be non existent. BA ordered the A380 in order to maximise profitability from its available slots at LHR.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:41 pm

mercure1 wrote:
It has been announced internally that Air France will hold off on cabin refit of A380 fleet as previously planned to commence in 2020.

Last November, AF announced it would reduce A380 fleet from 10 to 5 frames starting W19/20 season while launching overdue cabin refit project on remaining frames starting in 2020.

Update is that company now will review future of these 5 frames to determine if cost of refit of the outdated cabins which will exceed EUR30-40mil each is a viable business case. Seems this is driven by new CEO Smith.

CAPA managed to pick up the news.
https://centreforaviation.com/news/air- ... ceo-913086


So BA's comment that redoing the cabins on the A380 was a EUR30-40mil investment that made buying used frames too pricey. Well here is AF that is choking on a EUR30-40mil where they already own the planes. I am sure a lot of the cost is for certification as the A380 cabin was never standardized.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:13 pm

TedToToe wrote:
EBiafore99 wrote:
Doesn't surprise me. IMHO, AF (along with BA and LH) really only ordered the A380 to support Airbus and they knew the aircraft had limited profit potential (i.e. - routes).

Not true in the case of BA. They were privatised many years ago; meaning that political motives in sourcing decisions will be non existent. BA ordered the A380 in order to maximise profitability from its available slots at LHR.


I wasn't talking about privatization, more about supporting Airbus jobs. Privatization does not necessarily mean politics don't come into play. You're right about maximizing Heathrow slots, so BA may be a different case.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:28 pm

Seems that BA/IAG is a vulture, lazy circles in the sky just waiting for the right priced meal.
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:51 pm

A lot of comments about how dumb it was for AF to order just 10 A380's, and now would be even dumber to retain an even smaller sub-fleet of 5...and I totally agree but...um...hello...what about ANA's REALLY DUMB (IMHO) venture of getting just THREE and for one specific route only? Has everybody forgotten about this? LOL
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:12 pm

cathay747 wrote:
A lot of comments about how dumb it was for AF to order just 10 A380's, and now would be even dumber to retain an even smaller sub-fleet of 5...and I totally agree but...um...hello...what about ANA's REALLY DUMB (IMHO) venture of getting just THREE and for one specific route only? Has everybody forgotten about this? LOL


Don’t think ANA had much of a choice if they wanted to acquire Skymark. Airbus had a large claim and could veto the deal in bankruptcy court so ANA and Airbus had to reach an agreement which in this case meant it assumed the Skymark order.
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:14 pm

cathay747 wrote:
A lot of comments about how dumb it was for AF to order just 10 A380's, and now would be even dumber to retain an even smaller sub-fleet of 5...and I totally agree but...um...hello...what about ANA's REALLY DUMB (IMHO) venture of getting just THREE and for one specific route only? Has everybody forgotten about this? LOL


It’s not the three of one type on one route that I question but the premium heavy configuration. Unless there are plans to deploy the aircraft on other routes in the network, a more Economy heavy configuration would seem more relevant to a beach market. However, I’m sure ANA has a lot more days than I.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:16 pm

EBiafore99 wrote:
Doesn't surprise me. IMHO, AF (along with BA and LH) really only ordered the A380 to support Airbus and they knew the aircraft had limited profit potential (i.e. - routes). As mentioned earlier, these aircraft were ordered in an entirely different era for the airline, so maybe they were willing accept the limited profit potential for the A380. However, in today's environment, they can no longer accept the limited profitability.


I’m curious, was LH’s 748 business case weak?
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:21 pm

IWMBH wrote:
I think AF-KL should drop the A380’s and focus on simplifying their fleet. They’re lacking behind almost any other airline group and they need to get their shit together.


I agree, a small fleet of five will add to complexity and cost. I’m curious what there business case is for the A380 fleet.

I agree, AF needs “to get their shit together.” It’s seems they have squandered all opportunities to be a powerhouse.
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:45 pm

TheRedBaron wrote:
The CDG-MEX Flight is always full... maybe the price is way too low, to make it a good business case.... Bummer I love the 380

I always had doubts about the A380 and CDG-MEX. It was surprising to say the least that AF went from a 2-class 744, to a 4-class A380. I always wondered what percentage of business class passengers on CDG-MEX-CDG were elite upgrades, upgrades who paid with miles, or upgrades who paid a small price during OLCI or at the counter. However, the CEO of AF-KL Mexico has repeatedly said that CDG-MEX is a route that can definitely support La Première and a large Affaires cabin. Most of my recent flights across the pond have been on AF, I have spoken with this guy personally, and I now believe it is true that the market can support the A380.

Having said that, I have to wonder which other AF routes can support profitable A380 service. CDG-PVG? CDG-LAX? CDG-ABJ? To some of us the A380 is still a marvel of engineering and a super cool plane to fly, but many people just don't give a shit and would not only not mind a 77W for example, but would actually prefer it, if it is equipped with more modern and comfortable J- and W-class seats.

One of the biggest issues here is that the hard product on board the A380 is very dated. The problem is not so much with F, because it is a very nice cabin with only nine seats and a truly fantastic soft product. The issue is mostly with J. The 2-2-2 upper deck J cabin has terrible seats. If you catch a daytime flight, the seats are perfectly fine. But if you want to sleep during a night flight, the seat is really far behind the competition. If AF decides to wait a bit longer before refurbishing, they will continue to be perceived by more and more people as a provider of a bad business class product. So, I think that AF needs to either dump the whale very soon in order for the 77W (with the new F and J cabins) to be the largest plane in its fleet, or go through with the planned refurbishment and come up with something awesome fast!
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August: KL MEX-AMS 74M (J), KQ AMS-NBO 788 (J).
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:58 pm

Well, wait until HND will start accepting A380's.
HND alone is going to absorb 10% of the existing market for the A380 as I said before.

Even A380 critic AJ is hoping for this. Perhaps the only exception to his controversial "two B787's can do any job better than a single A380?"

https://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-eyes-ai ... dney-tokyo
 
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:35 am

EddieDude wrote:
Having said that, I have to wonder which other AF routes can support profitable A380 service. CDG-PVG? CDG-LAX? CDG-ABJ? To some of us the A380 is still a marvel of engineering and a super cool plane to fly, but many people just don't give a shit and would not only not mind a 77W for example, but would actually prefer it, if it is equipped with more modern and comfortable J- and W-class seats.

One of the biggest issues here is that the hard product on board the A380 is very dated. The problem is not so much with F, because it is a very nice cabin with only nine seats and a truly fantastic soft product. The issue is mostly with J. The 2-2-2 upper deck J cabin has terrible seats. If you catch a daytime flight, the seats are perfectly fine. But if you want to sleep during a night flight, the seat is really far behind the competition. If AF decides to wait a bit longer before refurbishing, they will continue to be perceived by more and more people as a provider of a bad business class product. So, I think that AF needs to either dump the whale very soon in order for the 77W (with the new F and J cabins) to be the largest plane in its fleet, or go through with the planned refurbishment and come up with something awesome fast!


I think you hit the nail on the head on this one. The A380s biggest selling point is its superior customer experience, whereas at AF it's the opposite. I know some AF loyalists that often fly F to JFK and PVG and they tell me they do enjoy how airy the F cabin is and privacy isn't an issue unless the cabin is full. I also know a few people who know nothing about aviation but are wise enough to avoid the A380 when possible whilst travelling for work. Even the economy cabin looks like it came out of the early 2000s...

LH reconfigured their A380s about 4 years after taking delivery of the first one because they knew they needed a new J product... AF on the otherhand is still stuck in the time where they were trying to convince the world that sloped seats are better for sleeping than actual lie flat beds... they should have redone the A380s back when they started the 777s.

On a side note, AF's A380 network has greatly changed. At some point they were flying to YUL, DXB, NRT and SIN.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:46 am

AF's A380 network currently is 2 x daily JFK plus LAX, SFO, IAD, ABJ, MEX, PVG? I had heard that CDG-HKG bleeds cash for AF and the A380 made it worse, which is why it was downgauged to a 77W. Is this true?
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:59 am

cathay747 wrote:
A lot of comments about how dumb it was for AF to order just 10 A380's, and now would be even dumber to retain an even smaller sub-fleet of 5...and I totally agree but...um...hello...what about ANA's REALLY DUMB (IMHO) venture of getting just THREE and for one specific route only? Has everybody forgotten about this? LOL


ANA get the 380 because it is a major part of Skymark deal, which they purchased for HND's slot and to keep competitors (e.g. DL) out of the market.
I believe they never hope their 380 operations to be a major profit making segment.
 
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F737NG
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:01 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
AF's A380 network currently is 2 x daily JFK plus LAX, SFO, IAD, ABJ, MEX, PVG? I had heard that CDG-HKG bleeds cash for AF and the A380 made it worse, which is why it was downgauged to a 77W. Is this true?


I think it's more likely due to the 77W being a much better hauler of freight.

There's a reason why British Airways sends BA28 (77W) about 30 minutes after BA32 (A388) HKG - LHR daily from the world's busiest cargo airport. And it's nothing to do with certain passengers being fans of Airbus or fans of Boeing.
 
AlexBrewster03
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:09 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
AF's A380 network currently is 2 x daily JFK plus LAX, SFO, IAD, ABJ, MEX, PVG? I had heard that CDG-HKG bleeds cash for AF and the A380 made it worse, which is why it was downgauged to a 77W. Is this true?

Don’t forget ATL, at least for the summer. But that’s understandable because its Deltas mega hub and i assume can support the extra capacity...?
 
speedbird52
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:40 am

EBiafore99 wrote:
Doesn't surprise me. IMHO, AF (along with BA and LH) really only ordered the A380 to support Airbus and they knew the aircraft had limited profit potential (i.e. - routes). As mentioned earlier, these aircraft were ordered in an entirely different era for the airline, so maybe they were willing accept the limited profit potential for the A380. However, in today's environment, they can no longer accept the limited profitability.

The A380 was an aircraft built for BA and LH. An operation that relies on lots of connections at slot constrained airports? I forsee BA, LH, and EK as being the last A380 operators
 
Jetty
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:17 am

speedbird52 wrote:
The A380 was an aircraft built for BA and LH. An operation that relies on lots of connections at slot constrained airports? I forsee BA, LH, and EK as being the last A380 operators

Going by the numbers among the major European airlines BA relies the least on connections and the most on O&D. The airlines that rely the most on connections are LH and KL and they tend to offer the highest frequencies instead of the highest capacity airplanes. There might be a good reason why BA will be one of the last A380 operators, but that will be high O&D demand to longhaul destinations and no opportunity for extra frequencies instead of hub connectivity.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Air France delays A380 cabin refit; future of fleet under study

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:29 am

F737NG wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
AF's A380 network currently is 2 x daily JFK plus LAX, SFO, IAD, ABJ, MEX, PVG? I had heard that CDG-HKG bleeds cash for AF and the A380 made it worse, which is why it was downgauged to a 77W. Is this true?


I think it's more likely due to the 77W being a much better hauler of freight.

There's a reason why British Airways sends BA28 (77W) about 30 minutes after BA32 (A388) HKG - LHR daily from the world's busiest cargo airport. And it's nothing to do with certain passengers being fans of Airbus or fans of Boeing.

How would a hypothetical A380 combi with main deck freight and upper deck PAX do? I imagine it would get MTOW limited very quickly but it sounds like a really cool concept.

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