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Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:20 pm
by JetBuddy
I think it's a bit weird to order 200 aircraft from one manufacturer - without the other manufacturer even knowing about it.

That leads to one of two conclusions:

1. Either the deal is so good it's impossible to beat.
2. It's a tactic to negotiate an even better deal on the other side of the aisle.

And it's not the first one.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 7-max-deal

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:22 pm
by scbriml
VV wrote:
This obsession about containers is just ridiculous.


Tell BA. :sarcastic:

You've been told multiple times that T5 is all containerised. Walsh stated that the MAX would be used by BA at Gatwick but not at Heathrow. So, in summary, the "obsession" with containers at Heathrow clearly isn't ridiculous to BA.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:54 pm
by sxf24
marcogr12 wrote:
Can they just cancel the LOI for 200 MAX if they get a better offer from Airbus,despite the fact that, as many posters have said WW, has some preference to Boeing a/c? Are there no binding clauses that would incur penalties in case this happens?Or could they just "trade" this deal for other Boeing long-haul a/c and go back to Airbus for short-haul (again only if Airbus decides to fight back with an offer they can't refuse)?


All commercial airplane transactions are the result of two party negotiations. IAG can’t DO anything without agreement from Boeing, except let the LOI expire. However, that would almost certainly impact other business between IAG and Boeing.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:58 pm
by Olddog
BA did not care to impact their business with Arbus, so....

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:00 pm
by SotonLAX
I wonder if the Boeing Maintenance hanger at Gatwick and their new factory in Sheffield have something to do with that, could be political pressure from the U.K.?

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:01 pm
by VV
scbriml wrote:
VV wrote:
This obsession about containers is just ridiculous.


Tell BA. :sarcastic:

You've been told multiple times that T5 is all containerised. Walsh stated that the MAX would be used by BA at Gatwick but not at Heathrow. So, in summary, the "obsession" with containers at Heathrow clearly isn't ridiculous to BA.


Haven't they just signed an LoI for 737?

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:13 pm
by astuteman
JetBuddy wrote:
I think it's a bit weird to order 200 aircraft from one manufacturer - without the other manufacturer even knowing about it.

That leads to one of two conclusions:

1. Either the deal is so good it's impossible to beat.
2. It's a tactic to negotiate an even better deal on the other side of the aisle.

And it's not the first one.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 7-max-deal


Feels to me a bit like a "stars aligning" moment.

I think IAG is big enough not to want to be come reliant on a sole manufacturer, and therefore was specifically looking for a Boeing commitment - it's the only sensible reason for no RFQ that I can think of.
As Revelation said, c. 200 Jet slots have appeared in the production firing order.
And heaven only knows Boeing needed the good news.
So the ingredients for a deal were there.
And I'm not one who goes in for the "rape" scenario - the manufacturers know how to make deals work
That said I'm pretty sure IAG will be getting a top notch deal in terms of price - I suspect that the price deal will be matched by favourable terms and conditions - e.g. financing support, right-hand biased payment profiles etc. to smooth the way further.

I'm not convinced there's much upside for Airbus in chasing this. That said you never win the raffle if you don't buy a ticket, so not much lost either.

Rgds

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:18 pm
by JerseyFlyer
WW was vocal in criticising Airbus over neo delivery delays, which may play into the non-competitive LOI.

But there was nothing in IAG's most recent capital markets presentation about 200 737s on the immediate horizon.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:24 pm
by PlymSpotter
par13del wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
As it's turning out there wasn't a competitive process involved in the order, then it is unsurprising that a lot of investors and traders are bearish on IAG.

But that being said, because of this I'm hearing a lot of views that isn't a real order to be taken seriously at this point, and that the competitive process with Airbus hasn't yet begun. If so, interesting positioning by IAG - it puts them in a very strong negotiating position.

So you expect that once Airbus puts in their bid Boeing is going to tear up their LOI and commence negotiations?
I assume that a price is already in the LOI and IAG have agreed to it, based on past principle, IAG should be using this time to secure financing to convert the LOI to a contract.
If they wanted to play Boeing off against Airbus all they had to do was request a RFP or leak some news of their intent.
Now if the thought is that by not going RFP they keep the EU governments out of any influence peddling.........


That would depend on the competitiveness of any potential bid Airbus propose - if indeed they do counter. LOIs lapse and are renegotiated all the time.

The situation being inferred here is that IAG announced a 'confidence boosting' LOI (potential order) for the MAX in return for sizeable and very real discounts on the 777X. If so, it is still a clever tactic, whether the order is confirmed or not.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:31 pm
by PlymSpotter
Revelation wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
'Beat these terms or we'll convert the LOI'.

Easier said than done.

Boeing has the 200 order hole in its production calendar due to Jet Airways departing the scene and Airbus has customers scurrying for slots due to the value that the A321XLR offers.

Believe it or not, 737-8 and -10 also are very competitive and in some aspects superior aircraft, depending on what routes you intend to use them on.

Airbus simply might not be able to match schedule / price / performance.

It could be a short negotiation.

But for now a bit of FUD goes a long way.


They also potentially have the LionAir order at risk.

I'm in no way doubting the competitiveness of the MAX - it clearly works well for some airlines, especially where cargo isn't a big consideration. But I odn't think we have seen the end of this competition, and I don't think IAG really wanted it any other way.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:32 pm
by fcogafa
JerseyFlyer wrote:
WW was vocal in criticising Airbus over neo delivery delays, which may play into the non-competitive LOI.

But there was nothing in IAG's most recent capital markets presentation about 200 737s on the immediate horizon.


Don't think there was anything in there about B779s either so its not an indicator

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:05 pm
by Revelation
PlymSpotter wrote:
They also potentially have the LionAir order at risk.

I'm in no way doubting the competitiveness of the MAX - it clearly works well for some airlines, especially where cargo isn't a big consideration. But I odn't think we have seen the end of this competition, and I don't think IAG really wanted it any other way.

If what you are hearing is true then it is a clever strategy from IAG.

In the other (why!) thread on this LOI we read BA's deliveries would be 2023 and onward which in theory gives Airbus a time to invent some slots, but they just took in a generous amount of new business in the form of XLRs while they admit they are already under pressure to deliver the current backlog whilst integrating the XLR ( viewtopic.php?p=21454323#p21454323 ) and admit they have cost challenges ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1425217 ) that they will be addressing.

I think the fact it is a LOI definitely means it is not over.

I guess we'll find out how far each vendor wants to stretch and how sincere WW's desire for fleet diversity is.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:23 pm
by MrHMSH
VV wrote:
scbriml wrote:
VV wrote:
This obsession about containers is just ridiculous.


Tell BA. :sarcastic:

You've been told multiple times that T5 is all containerised. Walsh stated that the MAX would be used by BA at Gatwick but not at Heathrow. So, in summary, the "obsession" with containers at Heathrow clearly isn't ridiculous to BA.


Haven't they just signed an LoI for 737?


They have indeed... but according to Walsh: the 737s would not be used at LHR T5, because T5 is containerised and the 737 doesn't accommodate that. They'll be used at LGW which isn't containerised, and by VY/LV.

In general the container advantage is overstated, for sure, but in this specific example, it really is the case that containerless aircraft won't be seen at T5 en-masse.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:11 pm
by VV
MrHMSH wrote:
VV wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Tell BA. :sarcastic:

You've been told multiple times that T5 is all containerised. Walsh stated that the MAX would be used by BA at Gatwick but not at Heathrow. So, in summary, the "obsession" with containers at Heathrow clearly isn't ridiculous to BA.


Haven't they just signed an LoI for 737?


They have indeed... but according to Walsh: the 737s would not be used at LHR T5, because T5 is containerised and the 737 doesn't accommodate that. They'll be used at LGW which isn't containerised, and by VY/LV.

In general the container advantage is overstated, for sure, but in this specific example, it really is the case that containerless aircraft won't be seen at T5 en-masse.


T5, T3 or whatever, that's two terminals in London among hundreds of other airports.

It would be weird if the receiving end refuses to deal with containers.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:08 pm
by MrHMSH
VV wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
VV wrote:

Haven't they just signed an LoI for 737?


They have indeed... but according to Walsh: the 737s would not be used at LHR T5, because T5 is containerised and the 737 doesn't accommodate that. They'll be used at LGW which isn't containerised, and by VY/LV.

In general the container advantage is overstated, for sure, but in this specific example, it really is the case that containerless aircraft won't be seen at T5 en-masse.


T5, T3 or whatever, that's two terminals in London among hundreds of other airports.

It would be weird if the receiving end refuses to deal with containers.


One of those terminals handles the vast majority of BA’s LHR operations, and probably most of BA’s entire short haul operations. Not exactly a minor consideration for the largest airline in IAG’s stable. Whatever decisions BA have made with regards to containers at T5 clearly works, otherwise they’d have changed it by now.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:44 pm
by Weatherwatcher1
JetBuddy wrote:
I think it's a bit weird to order 200 aircraft from one manufacturer - without the other manufacturer even knowing about it.

That leads to one of two conclusions:

1. Either the deal is so good it's impossible to beat.
2. It's a tactic to negotiate an even better deal on the other side of the aisle.

And it's not the first one.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 7-max-deal


British Airways has ordered and operates the A320neo. They know exactly the price Airbus is willing to sell the plane for and they know its performance. Follow on orders don’t get cheaper. Catalog and list prices usually go up about 2% per year. A little unusual for BA not to issue an RFP from Airbus, but the A320neo is a known commodity.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:03 am
by Shrewfly
Ok, I'm thinking outside the box here, and I know nothing about the economics of airlines buying aircraft. So I expect to be shot down... but

We are presuming these aircraft are replacements for the IAG airlines, and I expect some of them will be, but is there any reason IAG couldnt start up a new low-cost 737 only carrier? New brand, new pricing structure, new route network away from the big hubs. In my mind it kind of makes sense. We've seen short haul BA reduce service standards to compete on price, but the Heathrow/Gatwick focus, and the expectation of a BA customer means the price is nearly always higher than say Wizzair out of Luton or Ryanair at Stansted.

I doubt IAG will have ever had a chance to get new aircraft this cheap before, so is it possible theyve done it to take a punt at a new market?

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:59 am
by JerseyFlyer
In view of the current MAX issues, IAG may have taken a strategic decision to diversify their fleet, in this case ironically favouring the MAX.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:59 am
by JerseyFlyer
In view of the current MAX issues, IAG may have taken a strategic decision to diversify their fleet, in this case ironically favouring the MAX.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:30 am
by strfyr51
OA940 wrote:
Ah fanboys. Sometime's I'm really glad I'm not one.

Back on topic, this is a humongus order and a huge deal for Boeing. I wonder if that means no more buses for IAG, or if they simply wanted to expand fast and they found convenience in the MAX, with the cancelled orders and Jet going under leaving quite a few empty slots


sometimes? It takes diversifying your orders to keep one or the other manufacturers in Line with your needs. It could be? Airbus didn't want to offer the prices IAG demanded..

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:47 am
by scbriml
VV wrote:
scbriml wrote:
VV wrote:
This obsession about containers is just ridiculous.


Tell BA. :sarcastic:

You've been told multiple times that T5 is all containerised. Walsh stated that the MAX would be used by BA at Gatwick but not at Heathrow. So, in summary, the "obsession" with containers at Heathrow clearly isn't ridiculous to BA.


Haven't they just signed an LoI for 737?


I can't help you if you can't/won't understand Walsh's statement regarding Heathrow and the 737.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:12 am
by VV
scbriml wrote:
VV wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Tell BA. :sarcastic:

You've been told multiple times that T5 is all containerised. Walsh stated that the MAX would be used by BA at Gatwick but not at Heathrow. So, in summary, the "obsession" with containers at Heathrow clearly isn't ridiculous to BA.


Haven't they just signed an LoI for 737?


I can't help you if you can't/won't understand Walsh's statement regarding Heathrow and the 737.


No problem. I don't care anyway.

Fact is they committed to order 737, container or no container.
The container obsession is absurd.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:29 am
by Antarius
Shrewfly wrote:
Ok, I'm thinking outside the box here, and I know nothing about the economics of airlines buying aircraft. So I expect to be shot down... but

We are presuming these aircraft are replacements for the IAG airlines, and I expect some of them will be, but is there any reason IAG couldnt start up a new low-cost 737 only carrier? New brand, new pricing structure, new route network away from the big hubs. In my mind it kind of makes sense. We've seen short haul BA reduce service standards to compete on price, but the Heathrow/Gatwick focus, and the expectation of a BA customer means the price is nearly always higher than say Wizzair out of Luton or Ryanair at Stansted.

I doubt IAG will have ever had a chance to get new aircraft this cheap before, so is it possible theyve done it to take a punt at a new market?


We have no idea how cheap they got them. Heck, if one were to just read a.net, youd get the feeling that Boeing has historically paid people to buy the 737; all 10,000+ of them...

Also, Walsh has already said these were purchased for Vueling, Level and [email protected] I'm not sure why there are so many posts wondering where they will go. What benefit would a new 737 airline bring that putting 737s at Level wouldnt achieve?

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:24 am
by RandWkop
https://amp.independent.ie/business/iri ... 41793.html
An article painting Willie Walsh as a Boeing loyalist.


When Ray Conner retired as head of Boeing's commercial aircraft business in 2017, the company threw a farewell party for its lifelong employee. Among the speakers: Willie Walsh, who runs the IAG airline group and had built a close rapport over the years with both Mr Conner and Boeing, having spent almost two decades piloting 737 planes himself.

Mr Walsh's message was that relationships matter, both between individuals and companies.


In 2013, with Boeing's 787 Dreamliner grounded because of problems with lithium batteries, Mr Walsh doubled down and ordered 18 additional jets, topping up an earlier purchase of the model in 2007.

This time with the Max, Mr Walsh personally got involved in the aircraft review, testing the proposed upgrades in a flight simulator near London's Gatwick airport about four weeks ago and approving of the changes he experienced first hand. After the deal was announced, he heaped praise on Boeing and said he'd get on a Max the next day if it were in operation.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:51 am
by MarkusMUC
I my view Boeing and airliners which fly 737 Max have a real problem.
Yesterday my wife said "I don't want to fly BA" in autumn (although BA its her favourite airline).
I asked: "Why?"
She said: "British Airways bought 737 Max".
I said: "British Airways won't fly 737 Max in autumn".

My conclusion:
When ordinary passengers (normally without fear of flying) fears the 737 Max, then the image of Boeings 737 Max is completely destroyed and it will impact on bookings.
In my view Boeing and its 737 Max customers will need a longer period without any 737 Max crashes to re-establish trust in 737 Max.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:08 am
by hongkongflyer
MarkusMUC wrote:
I my view Boeing and airliners which fly 737 Max have a real problem.
Yesterday my wife said "I don't want to fly BA" in autumn (although BA its her favourite airline).
I asked: "Why?"
She said: "British Airways bought 737 Max".
I said: "British Airways won't fly 737 Max in autumn".

My conclusion:
When ordinary passengers (normally without fear of flying) fears the 737 Max, then the image of Boeings 737 Max is completely destroyed and it will impact on bookings.
In my view Boeing and its 737 Max customers will need a longer period without any 737 Max crashes to re-establish trust in 737 Max.


In reality, no ordinary passengers will pay attention to whether they are flying 737 Max months after the grounding is lifted.
AND, BA can always choose not to the model operating the flight on the website if they want (and if the MAX really hurting the booking numbers).

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:11 am
by ACATROYAL
This order is a Big mistake. The 737NG is a great plane, the 737-800 is legendary!! The Max series is an engine gone too far, so many pilots have commented on that they feel uncomfortable flying it, controls and response seems off, engineers discuss how it is flawed and yet due to some deep discounted pricing and arm twisting by Boeing we the public we be forced to fly in it with certain airlines.

I no longer trust Boeing and will always ask to be booked on another flight if I find out my flight will be on a Max plane.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:04 am
by SIVB
Revelation wrote:
Boeing has the 200 order hole in its production calendar due to Jet Airways departing the scene and Airbus has customers scurrying for slots due to the value that the A321XLR offers.

Airbus simply might not be able to match schedule / price / performance.


I think you are right. It’s not only a matter of economics, but also availability. Boeing was able to provide better slots on top of a good price. Airbus simply cannot match at this time, and IAG saw a chance to get a sweet deal. There’s no need for a RFP even if IAG is a traded company, and I believe shareholders will back this decision.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:10 am
by noviorbis77
ACATROYAL wrote:
This order is a Big mistake. The 737NG is a great plane, the 737-800 is legendary!! The Max series is an engine gone too far, so many pilots have commented on that they feel uncomfortable flying it, controls and response seems off, engineers discuss how it is flawed and yet due to some deep discounted pricing and arm twisting by Boeing we the public we be forced to fly in it with certain airlines.

I no longer trust Boeing and will always ask to be booked on another flight if I find out my flight will be on a Max plane.


This hysteria is not necessary.

The whole sorry grapes on this thread from some posters is tragic.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:15 am
by sxf24
ACATROYAL wrote:
This order is a Big mistake. The 737NG is a great plane, the 737-800 is legendary!! The Max series is an engine gone too far, so many pilots have commented on that they feel uncomfortable flying it, controls and response seems off, engineers discuss how it is flawed and yet due to some deep discounted pricing and arm twisting by Boeing we the public we be forced to fly in it with certain airlines.

I no longer trust Boeing and will always ask to be booked on another flight if I find out my flight will be on a Max plane.


Interesting. Most pilots I’ve talked to say they prefer the MAX to the NG. It handles better, particularly when landing. However, there is definitely some negative emotion surrounding MCAS and a feeling they were excluded from some information.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:17 am
by RexBanner
Landing performance in Jersey with the Max 8 is going to be a bit of an issue. In theory it’s doable but factor in a wet runway and/or a couple of knots tailwind (ie quartering tailwind across 26 utilizing the lower minima in fog on that runway) and there’s going to be problems. That one will be very interesting as it’s BA’s most frequent route out of Gatwick (outside of Malaga in the summer).

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:47 am
by marcelh
RandWkop wrote:
https://amp.independent.ie/business/irish/big-bet-on-737-max-a-sign-of-willie-walshs-loyalty-38241793.html
An article painting Willie Walsh as a Boeing loyalist.


When Ray Conner retired as head of Boeing's commercial aircraft business in 2017, the company threw a farewell party for its lifelong employee. Among the speakers: Willie Walsh, who runs the IAG airline group and had built a close rapport over the years with both Mr Conner and Boeing, having spent almost two decades piloting 737 planes himself.

Mr Walsh's message was that relationships matter, both between individuals and companies.


In 2013, with Boeing's 787 Dreamliner grounded because of problems with lithium batteries, Mr Walsh doubled down and ordered 18 additional jets, topping up an earlier purchase of the model in 2007.

This time with the Max, Mr Walsh personally got involved in the aircraft review, testing the proposed upgrades in a flight simulator near London's Gatwick airport about four weeks ago and approving of the changes he experienced first hand. After the deal was announced, he heaped praise on Boeing and said he'd get on a Max the next day if it were in operation.

So he’s just a Boeing fanboi. What will huis username be at this forum?

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:33 pm
by par13del
ACATROYAL wrote:
This order is a Big mistake. The 737NG is a great plane, the 737-800 is legendary!! The Max series is an engine gone too far, so many pilots have commented on that they feel uncomfortable flying it, controls and response seems off, engineers discuss how it is flawed and yet due to some deep discounted pricing and arm twisting by Boeing we the public we be forced to fly in it with certain airlines.

I no longer trust Boeing and will always ask to be booked on another flight if I find out my flight will be on a Max plane.

So you are not going to book a flight on Air Boeing but will continue to fly on your favorite airline whose arm was twisted to put your life in danger by buying the MAX?
How do you know what other crooked deals your favorite airline did to get their other a/c, higher carbon emissions, more pollution, bribery, failure to pay their fair share of tax, discrimination on hires, etc etc etc. surely you are as concerned about those life issues?

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:36 pm
by frmrCapCadet
When it comes to deals it is valid occasionally bargain with just one source. They know, you know what general pricing and other conditions are. So Boeing, in essence, said here are 200 planes and the price, along with other good conditions and we are making this offer if you don't put us in a bidding war.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:00 pm
by Shrewfly
hongkongflyer wrote:
MarkusMUC wrote:
I my view Boeing and airliners which fly 737 Max have a real problem.
Yesterday my wife said "I don't want to fly BA" in autumn (although BA its her favourite airline).
I asked: "Why?"
She said: "British Airways bought 737 Max".
I said: "British Airways won't fly 737 Max in autumn".

My conclusion:
When ordinary passengers (normally without fear of flying) fears the 737 Max, then the image of Boeings 737 Max is completely destroyed and it will impact on bookings.
In my view Boeing and its 737 Max customers will need a longer period without any 737 Max crashes to re-establish trust in 737 Max.


In reality, no ordinary passengers will pay attention to whether they are flying 737 Max months after the grounding is lifted.
AND, BA can always choose not to the model operating the flight on the website if they want (and if the MAX really hurting the booking numbers).


I wouldnt be so sure
There were people actively avoiding DC10s at one point, and in this day of instant communication and mass media, people have easy access to news and are far more aware than they were back then.

There probably wont be enough pax trying to avoid the MAX to make a difference, but some will. I'd be amazed if Boeing didnt rebrand the model mind

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:06 pm
by par13del
Shrewfly wrote:
I wouldnt be so sure
There were people actively avoiding DC10s at one point, and in this day of instant communication and mass media, people have easy access to news and are far more aware than they were back then.

Yes, and those new channels of communication do not only carry bad news, I admit there are many more characters who use the open channels for FAKE news, but there are just as many who provide genuine news, so the failures, successes and update to the MAX even if rebranded will also travel along those same airways. The real question is how much trust do citizens place in those who they have put in authority over them and faith in those who they use to assist in their education.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:47 pm
by musman9853
PlymSpotter wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Not sure which shares you're talking about; but Airbus is slightly up right now, so I guess investors are not too worried about losing this potential order...


IAG's shares dropped quite substantially after the LOI was announced. They have since recovered, but it is a sign that the markets were not bullish on the news.

As it's turning out there wasn't a competitive process involved in the planned order, then it is unsurprising that a lot of investors and traders are bearish on IAG.

But that being said, I'm hearing a lot of views that this isn't a real order to be taken seriously at this point, and that the competitive process with Airbus hasn't yet begun. If so, interesting positioning by IAG - it puts them in a very strong negotiating position. 'Beat these terms or we'll convert the LOI'.


sorry, what are you talking about? IAG stock is up a few percent since the beginning of PAS

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:25 pm
by hongkongflyer
Shrewfly wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
MarkusMUC wrote:
I my view Boeing and airliners which fly 737 Max have a real problem.
Yesterday my wife said "I don't want to fly BA" in autumn (although BA its her favourite airline).
I asked: "Why?"
She said: "British Airways bought 737 Max".
I said: "British Airways won't fly 737 Max in autumn".

My conclusion:
When ordinary passengers (normally without fear of flying) fears the 737 Max, then the image of Boeings 737 Max is completely destroyed and it will impact on bookings.
In my view Boeing and its 737 Max customers will need a longer period without any 737 Max crashes to re-establish trust in 737 Max.


In reality, no ordinary passengers will pay attention to whether they are flying 737 Max months after the grounding is lifted.
AND, BA can always choose not to the model operating the flight on the website if they want (and if the MAX really hurting the booking numbers).


I wouldnt be so sure
There were people actively avoiding DC10s at one point, and in this day of instant communication and mass media, people have easy access to news and are far more aware than they were back then.

There probably wont be enough pax trying to avoid the MAX to make a difference, but some will. I'd be amazed if Boeing didnt rebrand the model mind


DC10 is easily recognized by the general public because of its 3 engine layout. I doubt how many can tell whether this 737 is a MAX until they take a look of the safety card (actually not many people will do so).

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:06 pm
by AirbusA6
As IAG won't receiv their MAXes for 3 years, the assumption for them is that the problems will be fixed by then, and thousands will be flying safely

Alternatively, if the MAX is still a dog, then they will presumably just cancel the order anyway.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:18 pm
by TTailedTiger
ACATROYAL wrote:
This order is a Big mistake. The 737NG is a great plane, the 737-800 is legendary!! The Max series is an engine gone too far, so many pilots have commented on that they feel uncomfortable flying it, controls and response seems off, engineers discuss how it is flawed and yet due to some deep discounted pricing and arm twisting by Boeing we the public we be forced to fly in it with certain airlines.

I no longer trust Boeing and will always ask to be booked on another flight if I find out my flight will be on a Max plane.


Well surely your country's aviation administration won't certify it then if it is unsafe. Call them up and tell them.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:02 pm
by Antarius
AirbusA6 wrote:
Alternatively, if the MAX is still a dog, then they will presumably just cancel the order anyway.


Exactly.

IAG is counting on Boeing being 100% sure every thing is fixed. Boeing will not get a third chance.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:45 pm
by oschkosch
AirbusA6 wrote:
As IAG won't receiv their MAXes for 3 years, the assumption for them is that the problems will be fixed by then, and thousands will be flying safely

Alternatively, if the MAX is still a dog, then they will presumably just cancel the order anyway.
so the max is grounded another 3 years? Wow!

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Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:18 pm
by ikolkyo
oschkosch wrote:
AirbusA6 wrote:
As IAG won't receiv their MAXes for 3 years, the assumption for them is that the problems will be fixed by then, and thousands will be flying safely

Alternatively, if the MAX is still a dog, then they will presumably just cancel the order anyway.
so the max is grounded another 3 years? Wow!

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What? He said deliveries won’t begin for another 3 years.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:29 pm
by ACATROYAL
noviorbis77 wrote:
ACATROYAL wrote:
This order is a Big mistake. The 737NG is a great plane, the 737-800 is legendary!! The Max series is an engine gone too far, so many pilots have commented on that they feel uncomfortable flying it, controls and response seems off, engineers discuss how it is flawed and yet due to some deep discounted pricing and arm twisting by Boeing we the public we be forced to fly in it with certain airlines.

I no longer trust Boeing and will always ask to be booked on another flight if I find out my flight will be on a Max plane.


This hysteria is not necessary.

The whole sorry grapes on this thread from some posters is tragic.


Its not Hysteria or anything else, just reality of the situation, if this was a easy fix then it would of happened already... its more serious than we are being told... I'm just exercising my right to choose what to fly...to me action speaks louder than words. Go ahead and listen to the FAA and Boeing say its all fixed and ready to fly, they never lied before...

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:45 pm
by rikkus67
Likely already been posted, but...
You loose some:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 05-449724/
You win some (IAG)...

So.... the net total is -5?

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:54 pm
by Vladex
SIVB wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Boeing has the 200 order hole in its production calendar due to Jet Airways departing the scene and Airbus has customers scurrying for slots due to the value that the A321XLR offers.

Airbus simply might not be able to match schedule / price / performance.


I think you are right. It’s not only a matter of economics, but also availability. Boeing was able to provide better slots on top of a good price. Airbus simply cannot match at this time, and IAG saw a chance to get a sweet deal. There’s no need for a RFP even if IAG is a traded company, and I believe shareholders will back this decision.



There is always availability. Look at all these conversion to XLR and suddenly there is at least a hundred slots until 2023

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:17 pm
by SIVB
Vladex wrote:
There is always availability. Look at all these conversion to XLR and suddenly there is at least a hundred slots until 2023


Even with conversions they might be still sold out until later in the production. Or maybe they just don’t want to depend on a single OEM for short haul, or the price was just too good. Most likely a combination of all.

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:25 pm
by par13del
My next question would be how long will it take for this LOI to be converted to an order?

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:38 pm
by caljn
ACATROYAL wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
ACATROYAL wrote:
This order is a Big mistake. The 737NG is a great plane, the 737-800 is legendary!! The Max series is an engine gone too far, so many pilots have commented on that they feel uncomfortable flying it, controls and response seems off, engineers discuss how it is flawed and yet due to some deep discounted pricing and arm twisting by Boeing we the public we be forced to fly in it with certain airlines.

I no longer trust Boeing and will always ask to be booked on another flight if I find out my flight will be on a Max plane.


This hysteria is not necessary.

The whole sorry grapes on this thread from some posters is tragic.


Its not Hysteria or anything else, just reality of the situation, if this was a easy fix then it would of happened already... its more serious than we are being told... I'm just exercising my right to choose what to fly...to me action speaks louder than words. Go ahead and listen to the FAA and Boeing say its all fixed and ready to fly, they never lied before...





The scrutiny following these tragic events will be like never before, relax...it'll be just fine. How do you get through the day being so fearful?

Re: IAG sign LOI for 200 B737 Max

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:46 pm
by Antarius
ACATROYAL wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
ACATROYAL wrote:
This order is a Big mistake. The 737NG is a great plane, the 737-800 is legendary!! The Max series is an engine gone too far, so many pilots have commented on that they feel uncomfortable flying it, controls and response seems off, engineers discuss how it is flawed and yet due to some deep discounted pricing and arm twisting by Boeing we the public we be forced to fly in it with certain airlines.

I no longer trust Boeing and will always ask to be booked on another flight if I find out my flight will be on a Max plane.


This hysteria is not necessary.

The whole sorry grapes on this thread from some posters is tragic.


Its not Hysteria or anything else, just reality of the situation, if this was a easy fix then it would of happened already... its more serious than we are being told... I'm just exercising my right to choose what to fly...to me action speaks louder than words. Go ahead and listen to the FAA and Boeing say its all fixed and ready to fly, they never lied before...


Yes it is. Because in 3 years, the MAX is either working or done for good.

So hysterical panic now is either silly or agenda peddling, and given that this is a site where the aviation fearful dont typically venture, it is the latter.