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Aesma
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:21 pm

These low balled EIS dates are really annoying though. I think some start-ups have figured this, and now talk about 2025 or even 2030.

I also have big doubts about the design of most of them. Sure, electric propulsion allows stuff, new materials allow stuff, but if you want to convince people electric propulsion is safe, why not start with a plane that looks just like any other ?

3 engines is an interesting idea, why not make an electric trislander ?
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lightsaber
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:07 pm

Electric cars have fewer fires than gasoline automobiles. Originally, gasoline was burned at the refinery as it was insanely dangerous. Now we all drive those cars.

Cape air has the right route network for electric (short missions). Despite being a gas turbine fanatic, I approve of electrical. It cuts the total aircraft maintenance in almost half.

I like quiet.

What I don't believe is the certification schedule. Oh well, I'm old. :old:

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alberchico
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:01 pm

In all the previous images released by the company, this aircraft was supposed to incorporate a standard tricycle gear design, but when it was finally unveiled it was a taildragger. Something had to have happened during the design phase to necessitate a major rework of the landing gear. Did the massive weight of the batteries affect the CG ?
The certification trials are going to be interesting. I wonder what the FAA will think of the unorthodox configuration of the props. Not to mention the risks of battery fires.

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Image
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:33 pm

alberchico wrote:
In all the previous images released by the company, this aircraft was supposed to incorporate a standard tricycle gear design, but when it was finally unveiled it was a taildragger. Something had to have happened during the design phase to necessitate a major rework of the landing gear. Did the massive weight of the batteries affect the CG ?
The certification trials are going to be interesting. I wonder what the FAA will think of the unorthodox configuration of the props. Not to mention the risks of battery fires.

Image
Image

The top photo seems more like a rendering. To me, it doesnt look like there is room for the nose gear to retract.
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YYZLGA
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:06 pm

Babyshark wrote:
But wow a Cessna 402 doesn't even weigh that much. That's a lot of coal power to keep that thing aloft.


The Northeast doesn't burn coal (in any meaningful quantity) to generate electricity. It's nuclear, gas, and assorted renewables.
 
YYZYYT
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:18 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Biscayne738 wrote:
Whats the charge time between flights on the Evation? That could make for some long turns...


Good question. The trade-off, is maintenance costs will be very low, so having say 2 aircraft on a route, with 1 charging at any given time, will probably cost about the same as 1 gas powered aircraft. The supercharger technology for EVs is advancing at a rapid pace. I'd imagine the same technology can be applied to EAs (electric aircraft...new acronym lol).


Not that up on the latest in this field (my bad), but last year I was shown a new ultra-high speed charging system, developed for city buses and deployed in Geneva on a trial basis (I think). It's substantially faster than your typical Tesla plug. Bus pulls up at a designated stop and contacts the probes above. 4-5 minute pause in the schedule, and it departs - full. battery runs all day, never goes flat.

https://new.abb.com/substations/referen ... witzerland

There's no reason why this kind of technology can't be deployed to keep a plane charged if is has a 20-30 minute turn.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:12 am

YYZYYT wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
Biscayne738 wrote:
Whats the charge time between flights on the Evation? That could make for some long turns...


Good question. The trade-off, is maintenance costs will be very low, so having say 2 aircraft on a route, with 1 charging at any given time, will probably cost about the same as 1 gas powered aircraft. The supercharger technology for EVs is advancing at a rapid pace. I'd imagine the same technology can be applied to EAs (electric aircraft...new acronym lol).


Not that up on the latest in this field (my bad), but last year I was shown a new ultra-high speed charging system, developed for city buses and deployed in Geneva on a trial basis (I think). It's substantially faster than your typical Tesla plug. Bus pulls up at a designated stop and contacts the probes above. 4-5 minute pause in the schedule, and it departs - full. battery runs all day, never goes flat.

https://new.abb.com/substations/referen ... witzerland

There's no reason why this kind of technology can't be deployed to keep a plane charged if is has a 20-30 minute turn.


Very cool and indeed no reason why it cannot be adapted. Thanks to a 90 year hiatus in EV technology, we really are only in the infancy stage of the technology.
 
KCaviator
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:50 am

I’ll call it right now: this is never going to happen.
 
Gabrielz
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:59 am

The arc here is not dissimilar to cars.

First iteration are all gas
Then some electrification
Then hybrids (see prius and the 787)
Then all electric

This is a huge area ripe for innovation and will eventually become mainstream.
 
AviationAddict
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:56 pm

Gabrielz wrote:
The arc here is not dissimilar to cars.

First iteration are all gas
Then some electrification
Then hybrids (see prius and the 787)
Then all electric

This is a huge area ripe for innovation and will eventually become mainstream.


Not to get way off topic but...

Electric cars are actually on their second go around now. They were quite popular in the early days of the automobile and batteries were one of several technologies (including steam) competing to become the dominant form of propulsion. New York City actually had a huge fleet of electric taxis in the early 1900s. The lack of gas stations back then meant internal combustion engines really weren't any more convenient. Ultimately it was a combination of cost and weight (sound familiar) that killed them off.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:17 pm

BravoOne wrote:
One of the dumbest ideas in recent years.


Well, we all have said this once or a million times already in our lives! LOL! I agree, dumb!!! But!!! Dang are we ever witnessing some insane technology coming. These battery cars are really something else these days, and becoming a daily sight in my commute. I used to laugh when I would see someone in a battery operated car, but now.... I kind of want one. Make no mistake, Cape is likely very serious about this. It takes just one company to change the way we do things in life. While the odds may seem like a long shot, we may see this revolutionized plane type be the next big hit in our lifetime.

I was just thinking of the time I worked at Skywest and marshalled in the first CRJ. I thought the plane would never be a hit, and thought it was too big to be successful for Skywest. Damn, I was wrong.
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superjeff
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:31 pm

usxguy wrote:
Mokulele is supposed to be testing an electric-powered aircraft on Kahului-Hana sometime later this year.


that's about 26 miles (4 hours by car) and would work for Mokulele to Mokulele connections. Maybe one or two flights a day is all that market will support, 99% tourism.
 
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:41 pm

alberchico wrote:
In all the previous images released by the company, this aircraft was supposed to incorporate a standard tricycle gear design, but when it was finally unveiled it was a taildragger. Something had to have happened during the design phase to necessitate a major rework of the landing gear. Did the massive weight of the batteries affect the CG ?
The certification trials are going to be interesting. I wonder what the FAA will think of the unorthodox configuration of the props. Not to mention the risks of battery fires.

Image
Image

I foresee a very painful process getting FAA certification for passenger service. Even before the MAX it would have been hard. Now...
 
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enilria
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:43 pm

KCaviator wrote:
I’ll call it right now: this is never going to happen.

I don't see this plane in passenger service. I also think the range is going to end up being much shorter than they think because the FAA is going to tighten up on all sorts of angles of this. PLUS, these batteries lose max charge over time AND the weather can be quite unpredictable on the Cape for a plane with very limited reserve "fuel". I foresee a lot of issues.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:28 pm

enilria wrote:
alberchico wrote:
In all the previous images released by the company, this aircraft was supposed to incorporate a standard tricycle gear design, but when it was finally unveiled it was a taildragger. Something had to have happened during the design phase to necessitate a major rework of the landing gear. Did the massive weight of the batteries affect the CG ?
The certification trials are going to be interesting. I wonder what the FAA will think of the unorthodox configuration of the props. Not to mention the risks of battery fires.

Image
Image

I foresee a very painful process getting FAA certification for passenger service. Even before the MAX it would have been hard. Now...

Why are you saying that? Please explain as I personally do not see what new technology is hard-to-certify...
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:29 pm

enilria wrote:
KCaviator wrote:
I’ll call it right now: this is never going to happen.

I don't see this plane in passenger service. I also think the range is going to end up being much shorter than they think because the FAA is going to tighten up on all sorts of angles of this. PLUS, these batteries lose max charge over time AND the weather can be quite unpredictable on the Cape for a plane with very limited reserve "fuel". I foresee a lot of issues.

And engines lose efficiency over time, many thing in an aircraft age badly; but all those get overhauled and brought up to (almost or even better) new performance.
Batteries can follow this path.
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:19 pm

enilria wrote:
KCaviator wrote:
I’ll call it right now: this is never going to happen.

I don't see this plane in passenger service. I also think the range is going to end up being much shorter than they think because the FAA is going to tighten up on all sorts of angles of this. PLUS, these batteries lose max charge over time AND the weather can be quite unpredictable on the Cape for a plane with very limited reserve "fuel". I foresee a lot of issues.


I do not see it in PAX service other than 9K or maybe Southern Airways Express. Batteries will have to be replaced frequently, and this will be expensive.
Can someone please start a wikipedia list of failed startup airlines? I am interested in seeing just how long it would be...
 
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:32 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
enilria wrote:
alberchico wrote:
In all the previous images released by the company, this aircraft was supposed to incorporate a standard tricycle gear design, but when it was finally unveiled it was a taildragger. Something had to have happened during the design phase to necessitate a major rework of the landing gear. Did the massive weight of the batteries affect the CG ?
The certification trials are going to be interesting. I wonder what the FAA will think of the unorthodox configuration of the props. Not to mention the risks of battery fires.

Image
Image

I foresee a very painful process getting FAA certification for passenger service. Even before the MAX it would have been hard. Now...

Why are you saying that? Please explain as I personally do not see what new technology is hard-to-certify...

I see problems with reliability of the aircraft's range in weather situations. I realize these are short trips, but when islands are involved the weather can change very quickly and this aircraft's maximum time in flight seems like a bigger risk than they will want. I also worry about lightning and battery failure. I assume the batteries are broken up into many cells, but batteries fail suddenly and it isn't really predictable. There really isn't a comparable fuel based situation that happens commonly like a fuel tank suddenly draining out. Batteries also explode somewhat randomly and generate a lot of heat. You can always stop your hybrid car and get out. Battery fires are also more severe than pretty much any other kind and very hard to extinguish.

You might say, but they are in cars. This is what wikipedia said about plug-in battery fires:
Fire incidents in highway capable vehicles occur relatively frequently. A study of U.S. fires from 2003-2007 finds that fire departments respond to an average of 287,000 vehicle fires per year, or 30 vehicle fires per hour, and that vehicles were involved in 17% of all reported U.S. fires.[8] The study also finds that roughly 90 highway vehicle fires and 0.15 highway vehicle fire deaths were reported per billion miles driven.
So the rate of fire in battery cars was similar to gas powered cars, but there are a lot of car fires. There are VERY few airplane fires. So, the question will be whether they can reduce the rate to what is acceptable for an airplane. I would think all of these issues need a lot of study.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:40 pm

enilria wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
enilria wrote:
I foresee a very painful process getting FAA certification for passenger service. Even before the MAX it would have been hard. Now...

Why are you saying that? Please explain as I personally do not see what new technology is hard-to-certify...

I see problems with reliability of the aircraft's range in weather situations. I realize these are short trips, but when islands are involved the weather can change very quickly and this aircraft's maximum time in flight seems like a bigger risk than they will want. I also worry about lightning and battery failure. I assume the batteries are broken up into many cells, but batteries fail suddenly and it isn't really predictable. There really isn't a comparable fuel based situation that happens commonly like a fuel tank suddenly draining out. Batteries also explode somewhat randomly and generate a lot of heat. You can always stop your hybrid car and get out. Battery fires are also more severe than pretty much any other kind and very hard to extinguish.

Batteries can fail suddenly; so can engines.
The weak point of an internal combustion powertrain (Fuel Tank, Fuel Delivery System, Engine and Transmission - if any) is the engine; the weak point of an electrical powertrain (Batteries, Electrical Power Distribution and Motor) is the batteries.
Weakness has been mitigated in IC powertrain by installing 2 or more independant engines: same can be done with electrical powertrain.

As far as suddenly changing weather and potential diversion, the same risk exists with IC powertrain if the fuel reserve is too low. So, they'll apply the same rule.

enilria wrote:
You might say, but they are in cars. This is what wikipedia said about plug-in battery fires:
Fire incidents in highway capable vehicles occur relatively frequently. A study of U.S. fires from 2003-2007 finds that fire departments respond to an average of 287,000 vehicle fires per year, or 30 vehicle fires per hour, and that vehicles were involved in 17% of all reported U.S. fires.[8] The study also finds that roughly 90 highway vehicle fires and 0.15 highway vehicle fire deaths were reported per billion miles driven.
So the rate of fire in battery cars was similar to gas powered cars, but there are a lot of car fires. There are VERY few airplane fires. So, the question will be whether they can reduce the rate to what is acceptable for an airplane. I would think all of these issues need a lot of study.

That data from 2033-2007 is 12 years old at best; battery technology has drastically evolved since, with greater capacity and safer set-ups. And that technology keeps evolving a lot; the same cannot be said with IC engines, where the improvements are somehow minutes...
 
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enilria
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:42 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Batteries can fail suddenly; so can engines.

But a battery does not replace an engine. The risk is now the sum of the risk of a battery failure + the risk of an engine failure. Sudden and unexpected fuel leaks are very uncommon. A battery failure is more akin to that.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:08 pm

enilria wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Batteries can fail suddenly; so can engines.

But a battery does not replace an engine. The risk is now the sum of the risk of a battery failure + the risk of an engine failure. Sudden and unexpected fuel leaks are very uncommon. A battery failure is more akin to that.

Did you read what I wrote?

Electric motors are extremely reliable; much more than batteries or IC engines.
So, the weak point in electric powertrain is the battery, where as the weak point in IC powertrain is the engine; in both case, the weak point could fail suddenly, and spectacularly (i.e. in a fiery manner).

Electric motor failure in electric powertrain is akin to fuel delivery failure in IC powertrain: very unlikely.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:52 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
I understand the scepticism, but I think some posters need to remind themselves that this is new, evolving technology. It isn't likely to be optimal first time around and there will be issues.

Nomadd wrote:
The 900kwh battery pack for that plane would weigh about 5 tonnes on a 6.3tonne MTOW aircraft, and it doesn't get any lighter as you use it.
Doesn't really add up for me.
https://www.eviation.co/alice/


Around 3,400kg is being reported actually.


Spot on. The electric propulsion skepticism of 2019 is no doubt the same as the heavier-than-air skepticism of 1903 with the Wright Brothers. Like with any new technology a) there will always be doubters and b) there's this belief that this is as good as it gets.

Here's a concept on there that most people will get: the internet of 2019 is not the internet of 1999, let alone 1995...which was the first time I ever used the world wide web.


Not really. The Wright Brothers broke new ground with their airplane.Nobody had flown with a winged aircraft before. EVs are using battery technology that hasnt evolved much in the past 100 years. It is a physics problem. Make the energy density higher and heat becomes a problem, which then ignites the energy source. Worse, when energy density increases it will go from burning to exploding as batteries are near 100% efficient. So with current enegy densities we are looking at batteries that weigh as much as the aircraft to fly 2 hours or less.

That Tesla burning is a sign of things to come. Should be interesting how FDs handle Lithium Ion batteries. They provide their own oxidizer. As the youtube video noted. They doused it with water but it still burned for 4 hours. Imagine when these EV start burning up at a couple a day in major cities blocking entire roads for 4_ hours at a time.
 
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enilria
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:51 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
enilria wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Batteries can fail suddenly; so can engines.

But a battery does not replace an engine. The risk is now the sum of the risk of a battery failure + the risk of an engine failure. Sudden and unexpected fuel leaks are very uncommon. A battery failure is more akin to that.

Did you read what I wrote?

Electric motors are extremely reliable; much more than batteries or IC engines.
So, the weak point in electric powertrain is the battery, where as the weak point in IC powertrain is the engine; in both case, the weak point could fail suddenly, and spectacularly (i.e. in a fiery manner).

Electric motor failure in electric powertrain is akin to fuel delivery failure in IC powertrain: very unlikely.

Electric motors are more reliable, but they are new to airplanes. I would not expect reliability to match decades of gas turbine experience right off the bat. For example, car engines don't ingest birds.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:43 pm

enilria wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
enilria wrote:
But a battery does not replace an engine. The risk is now the sum of the risk of a battery failure + the risk of an engine failure. Sudden and unexpected fuel leaks are very uncommon. A battery failure is more akin to that.

Did you read what I wrote?

Electric motors are extremely reliable; much more than batteries or IC engines.
So, the weak point in electric powertrain is the battery, where as the weak point in IC powertrain is the engine; in both case, the weak point could fail suddenly, and spectacularly (i.e. in a fiery manner).

Electric motor failure in electric powertrain is akin to fuel delivery failure in IC powertrain: very unlikely.

Electric motors are more reliable, but they are new to airplanes. I would not expect reliability to match decades of gas turbine experience right off the bat. For example, car engines don't ingest birds.

Electric motors are older than IC engines; they have been refined a lot since then and their reliability is in the tens of thousands of hours. Doesn't matter if it is on a plane, a car or in a factory: it's still an electric motor, with it's simple design (very few moving parts), much lower risk of overheating and close to no vibration.
Car engines don't ingest birds; but neither do aircraft piston engines, and there are no reason either than electric motors would. Not sure why you're pointing that out.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:25 pm

enilria wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Did you read what I wrote?

Electric motors are extremely reliable; much more than batteries or IC engines.
So, the weak point in electric powertrain is the battery, where as the weak point in IC powertrain is the engine; in both case, the weak point could fail suddenly, and spectacularly (i.e. in a fiery manner).

Electric motors are more reliable, but they are new to airplanes. I would not expect reliability to match decades of gas turbine experience right off the bat. For example, car engines don't ingest birds.

I wouldn't expect electric engines to match the reliability of decades of gas turbine experience either; I would expect electric engines to improve on it, by quite a margin!
You seem to be ignoring the decades centuries of development that have gone into electric engines. And whilst it is true that for a majority of that time, reliability was less critical, more recently electrics have had to up their game too, particularly since they started being fitted to aircraft, and space missions.

Do you not believe that electrically powered landing gear is based on electric motors (& systems) that are highly reliable? How about something currently in the news - the motor that moves the stabiliser on the 737Max? There is a reason why "runaway stabiliser" procedure is being forgotten; because 737 stabiliser motors do not fail. Switches fail (v rarely), or systems (MCAS) fail, but the electric motors themselves keep on performing.

The only thing that is different here is the particular sizing of electric motors (e.g. 260 kW), and their particular arrangement (out on the wing, in the airflow, attached to a propeller shaft). Unlike IC engines, electric motors are equally happy mounted horizontally or vertically. They do not cough & splutter when the aircraft is inverted or experiencing negative g (cf Rolls Royce Merlin engine). And they perform just as happily in hot & high conditions and where the air is thin.
But you are correct; a new engine is a new engine, and I somehow suspect there will be a testing program that irons out any issues, and a regulator (e.g. the FAA) who will oversee it all. As they would with any new engine.

The problem of ingesting birds is just a red herring. :lol:
With an internal combustion engine, there are three potential issues.
a) physical impact damage to the propeller (or fan), or vulnerable parts of the engine (e.g. fuel lines or electric cables)
b) reduced cooling due to feathers etc clogging radiators
c) parts of the bird either clogging the engine intake (e.g. carburettor), or worse - finding their way past all the filters and into the combustion chamber itself.

So how does an electric motor measure up against a bird strike?
a) any impact on the propeller is irrelevant to the engine type
Meanwhile an electric engine has fewer exposed/vulnerable parts
b) I would argue that IC engines require more cooling than equivalent electric motors, so radiator surface area will be smaller, and therefore less likely to suffer from bird impact. Or we can eliminate vulnerable cooling radiators and move to a liquid cooling system that transfers the excess heat to the cabin, benefitting both engine types.
c) there is no air intake (carburettor or equivalent) required to allow an electric engine to function.
In terms of bird strikes, I believe you have just argued for why electric engines are the safer option!

But the most obvious answer of all is to observe that electric motors do not appear to exhibit greater efficiency as size increases. Other designs have offered solutions such as ten 25 kW motors (driving ten small propellers) as opposed to one larger (250 kW) motor driving a single propeller. If there are still any worries about reliability, multi-engine redundancy could be the way to go.

Are you sure you are not just searching for problems that don't exist?
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:39 pm

If you look at a 1914 and a 2014 electric motor, they're designed almost identical on the inside. There hasn't been much improvement in this area for a century. However, the last 4-5 years some improvements have been made. Tesla's latest electric motors in the Model 3 are better, more efficient and more reliable than the ones in the early 2013 Model S.

However, the issue with electric airplanes are not the motors. They're proven tech. The battery is where there's a lot of room for improvement. Currently they're just too heavy and inefficient for larger airplanes. I do believe we'll see great improvements in battery tech over the next 10 years though.
 
YYZYYT
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:58 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
enilria wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Did you read what I wrote?

Electric motors are extremely reliable; much more than batteries or IC engines.
So, the weak point in electric powertrain is the battery, where as the weak point in IC powertrain is the engine; in both case, the weak point could fail suddenly, and spectacularly (i.e. in a fiery manner).

Electric motors are more reliable, but they are new to airplanes. I would not expect reliability to match decades of gas turbine experience right off the bat. For example, car engines don't ingest birds.

I wouldn't expect electric engines to match the reliability of decades of gas turbine experience either; I would expect electric engines to improve on it, by quite a margin!
You seem to be ignoring the decades centuries of development that have gone into electric engines. And whilst it is true that for a majority of that time, reliability was less critical, more recently electrics have had to up their game too, particularly since they started being fitted to aircraft, and space missions.

Do you not believe that electrically powered landing gear is based on electric motors (& systems) that are highly reliable? How about something currently in the news - the motor that moves the stabiliser on the 737Max? There is a reason why "runaway stabiliser" procedure is being forgotten; because 737 stabiliser motors do not fail. Switches fail (v rarely), or systems (MCAS) fail, but the electric motors themselves keep on performing.


JetBuddy wrote:
If you look at a 1914 and a 2014 electric motor, they're designed almost identical on the inside. There hasn't been much improvement in this area for a century. However, the last 4-5 years some improvements have been made. Tesla's latest electric motors in the Model 3 are better, more efficient and more reliable than the ones in the early 2013 Model S.

However, the issue with electric airplanes are not the motors. They're proven tech. The battery is where there's a lot of room for improvement. Currently they're just too heavy and inefficient for larger airplanes. I do believe we'll see great improvements in battery tech over the next 10 years though.


:checkmark: :checkmark:

I'd add: Gear, gear doors, aileron, flaps/slats, reversers and rudders have all been powered by electric motors since the beginning, have they not? Is there even a single instance of an aircraft incident / accident caused by an electric motor failure - as apposed to the transmission (ie, MD80 jackscrews), system logic (Max) or actuator failure (737 rudder hard-over)?

I've worked with electrical distribution systems in the past, and had to force myself to learn this: electrical systems are not like other things, where new = more efficient and reliable.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:01 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
If you look at a 1914 and a 2014 electric motor, they're designed almost identical on the inside. There hasn't been much improvement in this area for a century. However, the last 4-5 years some improvements have been made. Tesla's latest electric motors in the Model 3 are better, more efficient and more reliable than the ones in the early 2013 Model S.

That's not completely correct.
Electric motors from the early 20th century had a power factor (cos phi) quite low (in the 0.7-0.8 range or even less); meaning the mechanical power was only 70-80% of the VA consumed (VA being what really matters for electric power consumption).
The same motors have drastically improved in the 1970's to reach and exceed today a power factor of 0.9, as an answer to increased energy cost (less electric energy needed for the same mechanical work) following the Oil Crisis of the 70's.
Work has continued with the newest electric cars.

JetBuddy wrote:
However, the issue with electric airplanes are not the motors. They're proven tech. The battery is where there's a lot of room for improvement. Currently they're just too heavy and inefficient for larger airplanes. I do believe we'll see great improvements in battery tech over the next 10 years though.

Correct. And this is where there is both a lot of possible improvement, and where there is a lot of actual improvement over a short period of time; they get better almost every month.
I am not sure their reliability is worse than that of Aircraft Piston Engines (since we're talking about Cape Air).
 
32andBelow
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:09 pm

enilria wrote:
KCaviator wrote:
I’ll call it right now: this is never going to happen.

I don't see this plane in passenger service. I also think the range is going to end up being much shorter than they think because the FAA is going to tighten up on all sorts of angles of this. PLUS, these batteries lose max charge over time AND the weather can be quite unpredictable on the Cape for a plane with very limited reserve "fuel". I foresee a lot of issues.

The batteries will get replaced an overhauled at set intervals like everything else in an airplane. Come on man you’re smarter than this.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:12 pm

enilria wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
enilria wrote:
But a battery does not replace an engine. The risk is now the sum of the risk of a battery failure + the risk of an engine failure. Sudden and unexpected fuel leaks are very uncommon. A battery failure is more akin to that.

Did you read what I wrote?

Electric motors are extremely reliable; much more than batteries or IC engines.
So, the weak point in electric powertrain is the battery, where as the weak point in IC powertrain is the engine; in both case, the weak point could fail suddenly, and spectacularly (i.e. in a fiery manner).

Electric motor failure in electric powertrain is akin to fuel delivery failure in IC powertrain: very unlikely.

Electric motors are more reliable, but they are new to airplanes. I would not expect reliability to match decades of gas turbine experience right off the bat. For example, car engines don't ingest birds.

What do you
Mean ingest birds. It’s not a jet. It’s not going to ingest anything.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:40 am

crjflyboy wrote:
Given that Tesla vehicles catch on fire in what seems to be a monthly basis, this is a recipe for disaster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE9b_EC874g

I wonder if Cape officials approached Piper about a replacement for their Cessna aircraft.


You must be aware that cars with flammable liquids also catch fire. Often. And gasoline is flammable.

BTW, airplanes with jet fuel/gasoline also catch fire.

Now if someone could find out the *rate* at which these things happen, on per mile/hour basis ...
 
AC77X
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:44 am

Practically any type of vehicle can light on fire. The only way to really make that argument matter is by figuring out how many battery fires there are in comparison to fuel fires.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:00 am

Everyone talking negative about electric.

Boeing NSA will be electric. Maybe with a small gas turbine range extender in the tail.

As soon as battery tech hits 500w per kg an electric aircraft will be able to fly probably 80% of the A320 and 737 flights.

The main thing is an electric aircraft will need to weigh 3-4 times as much as a gas turbine aircraft to carry the same payload the same distance. Think of a 787 sized wing with a 200T MTOW to carry a 737 sized fuselage on 1000nm shorthaul flights.
 
OlafW
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:12 pm

Elementalism wrote:
That Tesla burning is a sign of things to come. Should be interesting how FDs handle Lithium Ion batteries. They provide their own oxidizer. As the youtube video noted. They doused it with water but it still burned for 4 hours. Imagine when these EV start burning up at a couple a day in major cities blocking entire roads for 4_ hours at a time.


In recent events in Germany and Europe, FDs used roll-off containers in which they dumped the vehicle, or pushed it into the container, flooding it afterwards. Any way, EV fires may need longer than combustion engine car fires right now, but over time I won't expect disturbances to be longer than now as procedures are standardized and used more frequently. Also note that most car fires don't start on the road but in a parking lot or similar, not affecting streets much.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Cape air to order and be launch customer of all-electric aircraft

Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:17 pm

New jet engines are obviously at the bleeding edge, heavier, complex beyond understanding, and evermore expensive - and at the same time a marvel of engineering excellence. Electric engines as they have developed get lighter, more powerful, and more efficient while at the same time getting simpler. Simple enough that no one describes a new electric motor as a marvel of engineering excellence. I wonder how that might go as the market and engineers push it too far? On the other hand, an electric motor that will run a hundred hours with no watt/amp/heating (?) anomalies will probably run for thousands of hours. How about bearings, which of course are easily monitored and replaced?
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