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United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:11 am

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... 712f684f0b

Interesting read. From the article:

"The United chapter of the Air Line Pilots filed a grievance on June 6. In a report to members, Grievance Committee Chairman Joe Pedata wrote that under the scope clause, “Company flying must be performed by pilots on the United seniority list, and Avianca pilots are not on our list.”

Seems they want to fly Avianca planes then.

But United does not agree

:United spokeswoman Megan McCarthy said late Tuesday, “The grievance is without merit.

“Avianca Holdings remains an independent company and will continue to run their own airline,” McCarthy said. "
 
eamondzhang
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:33 am

Well, I personally tend to agree with the spokeswoman, sounds like a total nonsense from the union to me.

Michael
 
dcajet
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:54 am

Nonsense. This one takes the cake...
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usflyer msp
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:54 am

eamondzhang wrote:
Well, I personally tend to agree with the spokeswoman, sounds like a total nonsense from the union to me.

Michael


I concur. I suspect he does not comprehend what "company flying" means...
 
YYZatcboy
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:35 am

I can see where the union is coming from actually. If the contract states something to the effect of 'any flying done by united or a company owned or controlled by united' they would have a point, since Avianca now is majority controlled and owned by united. That is likely similar to what their contract says and would be the what the union is saying, at least from how the article reads.

The pilot contract defines company flying as "without limitation, all commercial flight operations of any sort whatsoever, whether revenue, nonrevenue, scheduled or unscheduled, conducted...by an entity managed by or under the control of the company.”
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usflyer msp
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:47 am

YYZatcboy wrote:
I can see where the union is coming from actually. If the contract states something to the effect of 'any flying done by united or a company owned or controlled by united' they would have a point, since Avianca now is majority controlled and owned by united. That is likely similar to what their contract says and would be the what the union is saying, at least from how the article reads.

The pilot contract defines company flying as "without limitation, all commercial flight operations of any sort whatsoever, whether revenue, nonrevenue, scheduled or unscheduled, conducted...by an entity managed by or under the control of the company.”


UA neither controls nor manages AV. In fact, they specifically put Efromovich's stake in AV under the former TACA owner's control to avoid this problem.
 
Okcflyer
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:12 am

Pandering to the radicals of the group and drumming up unhealthy sentiment toward management over nothing. Apparently these so called leaders don’t have anything more beneficial or important to do than manufacture drama.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:16 am

usflyer msp wrote:
YYZatcboy wrote:
I can see where the union is coming from actually. If the contract states something to the effect of 'any flying done by united or a company owned or controlled by united' they would have a point, since Avianca now is majority controlled and owned by united. That is likely similar to what their contract says and would be the what the union is saying, at least from how the article reads.

The pilot contract defines company flying as "without limitation, all commercial flight operations of any sort whatsoever, whether revenue, nonrevenue, scheduled or unscheduled, conducted...by an entity managed by or under the control of the company.”


UA neither controls nor manages AV. In fact, they specifically put Efromovich's stake in AV under the former TACA owner's control to avoid this problem.


Aye, there's the rub...

Through the involved loans, when does UA have control of Avianca? UAL ALPA believes that thresh hold has been crossed. If UA controls the company (through the default covenants of the first loan) - that controls Avianca, doesn't UA have control, at least indirectly?
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SierraPacific
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:19 am

If you were the union, why wouldn't you file this? Worst case scenario you lose quietly in a courtroom that nobody cares about or you win.
 
Judge1310
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:31 am

Okcflyer wrote:
Pandering to the radicals of the group and drumming up unhealthy sentiment toward management over nothing. Apparently these so called leaders don’t have anything more beneficial or important to do than manufacture drama.


Ding ding ding we have a winner!
 
Boof02671
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:34 am

SierraPacific wrote:
If you were the union, why wouldn't you file this? Worst case scenario you lose quietly in a courtroom that nobody cares about or you win.

Doesn’t go to court, it follows a Grievance Procedure and ends in Arbitration.
 
jbs2886
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:41 am

usflyer msp wrote:
YYZatcboy wrote:
I can see where the union is coming from actually. If the contract states something to the effect of 'any flying done by united or a company owned or controlled by united' they would have a point, since Avianca now is majority controlled and owned by united. That is likely similar to what their contract says and would be the what the union is saying, at least from how the article reads.

The pilot contract defines company flying as "without limitation, all commercial flight operations of any sort whatsoever, whether revenue, nonrevenue, scheduled or unscheduled, conducted...by an entity managed by or under the control of the company.”


UA neither controls nor manages AV. In fact, they specifically put Efromovich's stake in AV under the former TACA owner's control to avoid this problem.


That may not be correct. Control, as used in contracts, is typically a defined term that can be inferred solely by ownership. Manage would the "control" you are envisioning.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:49 am

jbs2886 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
YYZatcboy wrote:
I can see where the union is coming from actually. If the contract states something to the effect of 'any flying done by united or a company owned or controlled by united' they would have a point, since Avianca now is majority controlled and owned by united. That is likely similar to what their contract says and would be the what the union is saying, at least from how the article reads.

The pilot contract defines company flying as "without limitation, all commercial flight operations of any sort whatsoever, whether revenue, nonrevenue, scheduled or unscheduled, conducted...by an entity managed by or under the control of the company.”


UA neither controls nor manages AV. In fact, they specifically put Efromovich's stake in AV under the former TACA owner's control to avoid this problem.


That may not be correct. Control, as used in contracts, is typically a defined term that can be inferred solely by ownership. Manage would the "control" you are envisioning.


It's convoluted because UA does not own the shares, Synergy still does. UA just has control of the rights associated with them and they have ceded that control to the ex-TACA folks.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:02 am

FlyHossD wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
YYZatcboy wrote:
I can see where the union is coming from actually. If the contract states something to the effect of 'any flying done by united or a company owned or controlled by united' they would have a point, since Avianca now is majority controlled and owned by united. That is likely similar to what their contract says and would be the what the union is saying, at least from how the article reads.

The pilot contract defines company flying as "without limitation, all commercial flight operations of any sort whatsoever, whether revenue, nonrevenue, scheduled or unscheduled, conducted...by an entity managed by or under the control of the company.”


UA neither controls nor manages AV. In fact, they specifically put Efromovich's stake in AV under the former TACA owner's control to avoid this problem.


Aye, there's the rub...

Through the involved loans, when does UA have control of Avianca? UAL ALPA believes that thresh hold has been crossed. If UA controls the company (through the default covenants of the first loan) - that controls Avianca, doesn't UA have control, at least indirectly?


Caveat: I haven’t seen the involved loan documents.

That said, it’s generally not the case that a creditor has control by virtue of the default provisions of a loan if no default has occurred. The pilots’ position seems analogous to saying that Bank of America controls my house because it is the mortgage holder and can foreclose in the event of default.
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:10 am

usflyer msp wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

UA neither controls nor manages AV. In fact, they specifically put Efromovich's stake in AV under the former TACA owner's control to avoid this problem.


That may not be correct. Control, as used in contracts, is typically a defined term that can be inferred solely by ownership. Manage would the "control" you are envisioning.


It's convoluted because UA does not own the shares, Synergy still does. UA just has control of the rights associated with them and they have ceded that control to the ex-TACA folks.

The problem is that UA has "control" of the rights. Even though they gave the ex TACA people the power associated with those rights, UA still has control. That is probably what the union is arguing. They, the union, probably wants the Avianca pilots to become members, not have UA pilots fly for Avianca.
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strfyr51
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:11 am

usflyer msp wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
Well, I personally tend to agree with the spokeswoman, sounds like a total nonsense from the union to me.

Michael


I concur. I suspect he does not comprehend what "company flying" means...

this has been in the ALPA contract for YEARS!! It's tp prevent United from operating another "Pseudo Airline" owned by UAL Inc.
United Management knew full well this was in the contract but "slipped up" when they lent the former CEO of Avianca the money and he stabbed them in the back..
Now? They're holding the bag and ALPA knows it!! so? It's not a matter of who's right or wrong Because Management is caught by the short hairs.. The question is??
HOW are they going to make it right without a Strike??
 
Cubsrule
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:15 am

AAlaxfan wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

That may not be correct. Control, as used in contracts, is typically a defined term that can be inferred solely by ownership. Manage would the "control" you are envisioning.


It's convoluted because UA does not own the shares, Synergy still does. UA just has control of the rights associated with them and they have ceded that control to the ex-TACA folks.

The problem is that UA has "control" of the rights. Even though they gave the ex TACA people the power associated with those rights, UA still has control. That is probably what the union is arguing. They, the union, probably wants the Avianca pilots to become members, not have UA pilots fly for Avianca.


You seem to be conflating control with right to control. They are distinct concepts (the UA pilot contract may also say right to control; I don’t know).
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FlyHossD
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:20 am

Cubsrule wrote:
...That said, it’s generally not the case that a creditor has control by virtue of the default provisions of a loan if no default has occurred. The pilots’ position seems analogous to saying that Bank of America controls my house because it is the mortgage holder and can foreclose in the event of default.


IIRC, there was a default on this first loan. UA has since extended another (is that throwing good money after bad..?).

So, at least as I understand, UA now has control given the default on the first loan. It's also known that UA management has been pressing for ownership of another airline during the current Scope negotiations. In the meantime, UAL ALPA is contending that UA has violated the current Scope clause.

To the UA pilots, it's not an idle issue - they're looking at the number of flights that ANA flies now that UA once did. And they also see the numerous grievances at DL over similar issues.
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Chemist
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:53 am

I can just hear "Rhapsody in Blue" playing right about now.
 
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:10 am

Boof02671 wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
If you were the union, why wouldn't you file this? Worst case scenario you lose quietly in a courtroom that nobody cares about or you win.

Doesn’t go to court, it follows a Grievance Procedure and ends in Arbitration.


My apologies, My statement still stands though that this is an absolute no brainer for the union to file a grievance for
 
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:22 am

[quote="Pyrex"]Of all the idiotic things unions can and often do, this one has to take the cake. Do they want to go down to Bogota and fly the Avianca planes for them? /quote]
My thought exactly
No self respecting UA pilot would give up their cushy UA job to uproot their family to Colombia (not that Colombia is crappy, its that the pilot would more than likely prefer to live in the US near their family).

But I think the issue is they want the AV pilots integrated to their seniority list. But it's not like the planes say United on them or AV will all of a sudden start flying UA routes within the US network. Still a bunch of BS though.
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bennett123
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:07 am

If the majority shareholding in AV is held by a Nominee of UA, it seems reasonable to say that UA is controlled by UA.
 
codc10
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:27 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
But I think the issue is they want the AV pilots integrated to their seniority list. But it's not like the planes say United on them or AV will all of a sudden start flying UA routes within the US network. Still a bunch of BS though.


They don’t want to integrate the AV pilots. Trust me, this is nothing more than a bargaining chip in the ongoing contract negotiations.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:47 pm

If a Union, thru its contract with the company, cannot define the work done by its members there is not much point to the contract. The argument is out-sourcing the work of UA pilots. Like code sharing, joint ventures, regional flying are the same mold—management taking flying from the UA pilots and sending it to lower cost operators.

Look at what QF did to the careers of QF and former TAA pilots using Jetstar.

While unions are not all fronts for organized crime, you might look at the Teamsters, various N.Y. construction, garbage and stevedore unions to see it’s not a ridiculous statement.

GF
 
Cubsrule
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:06 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
...That said, it’s generally not the case that a creditor has control by virtue of the default provisions of a loan if no default has occurred. The pilots’ position seems analogous to saying that Bank of America controls my house because it is the mortgage holder and can foreclose in the event of default.


IIRC, there was a default on this first loan. UA has since extended another (is that throwing good money after bad..?).

So, at least as I understand, UA now has control given the default on the first loan. It's also known that UA management has been pressing for ownership of another airline during the current Scope negotiations. In the meantime, UAL ALPA is contending that UA has violated the current Scope clause.

To the UA pilots, it's not an idle issue - they're looking at the number of flights that ANA flies now that UA once did. And they also see the numerous grievances at DL over similar issues.


Default wouldn’t necessarily lead to control either. Going back to my example, if I default on my mortgage, Bank of America forecloses on my house, and you buy the house at the foreclosure sale, there’s a good argument that Bank of America never controlled it. But, it’s a close question - perhaps made closer by the non-public documents - and there’s certainly value in having an arbitrator decide.
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mia
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:31 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
UA neither controls nor manages AV. In fact, they specifically put Efromovich's stake in AV under the former TACA owner's control to avoid this problem.


Your second sentence leads me to believe that in fact they DO control AV in that they were able to structure the deal in a way to "avoid" a "problem", while still maintaining control.
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ScottB
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:45 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
if I default on my mortgage, Bank of America forecloses on my house, and you buy the house at the foreclosure sale, there’s a good argument that Bank of America never controlled it.


Arguably Bank of America had sufficient control of the property to evict the mortgagor and force the sale. And in some cases they will retain the property after foreclosure and sell it through normal market channels.

Cubsrule wrote:
The pilots’ position seems analogous to saying that Bank of America controls my house because it is the mortgage holder and can foreclose in the event of default.


I think it's more akin to a situation where Bank of America had foreclosed on a commercial real estate loan for an apartment building and have assigned day-to-day control of the building to a management company. They may not be operating the building themselves, but they certainly have control in choosing the management company or deciding whether or not to sell the asset.

usflyer msp wrote:
It's convoluted because UA does not own the shares, Synergy still does. UA just has control of the rights associated with them and they have ceded that control to the ex-TACA folks.


That sort of legal fiction probably won't fly unless UA has irrevocably given up those rights to the ex-TACA owners. If UA retains the prerogative to take control back from TA's former owners/managers then arguably they have control, even if they're not directly involved with the day-to-day management of AV.

AAlaxfan wrote:
The problem is that UA has "control" of the rights. Even though they gave the ex TACA people the power associated with those rights, UA still has control. That is probably what the union is arguing. They, the union, probably wants the Avianca pilots to become members, not have UA pilots fly for Avianca.


This, exactly. But it's also about preventing the company from coming up with an alter-ego carrier and shifting flying to that. One can easily imagine a scenario where UA-controlled AV might take over substantially all of UA's flying between the U.S. and Central/South America where permitted by bilaterals if they could save money on crew costs. But if the AV pilots are on the UA seniority list and represented by ALPA, the union has greater leverage to prevent the company from using wage arbitrage.

Okcflyer wrote:
Pandering to the radicals of the group and drumming up unhealthy sentiment toward management over nothing. Apparently these so called leaders don’t have anything more beneficial or important to do than manufacture drama.


Nope. The union has little choice but to file the grievance if they want to preserve their rights under the contract. Imagine if they didn't grieve this and in ten years UA management decided to start Ted 2.0 -- owned by UA and flying new deliveries from UA's 737 order book, but staffed by Mesa pilots and managed by Mesa management. If you don't move to enforce your rights under a contract, you may ultimately lose those rights in future arbitration or litigation.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:10 pm

Please stick to discussing the topic. This topic isn't a discussion on the general merit of unions. Please take that discussion to the Non Aviation Forum.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
drdisque
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:28 pm

This cannot end in a strike because the United contract is not past its amendable date. Anyone who says otherwise simply doesn't understand how airline collective bargaining works in the US.

The NMB will arbitrate the grievance and will either deem that United does not control Avianca or if United does control Avianca, will specify a relief to ALPA and/or a way for United to rectify the problem (transfer enough control to outside parties to satisfy the wording of the contract).

Some good background reading on the subject.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Labor_Act
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Mediation_Board
 
sdh9
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:34 pm

drdisque wrote:
This cannot end in a strike because the United contract is not past its amendable date.


Incorrect, the amendable date has passed.

But I agree with you that a scope grievance will not end in a strike. That’s not the way the system works.
 
Boof02671
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:41 pm

drdisque wrote:
This cannot end in a strike because the United contract is not past its amendable date. Anyone who says otherwise simply doesn't understand how airline collective bargaining works in the US.

The NMB will arbitrate the grievance and will either deem that United does not control Avianca or if United does control Avianca, will specify a relief to ALPA and/or a way for United to rectify the problem (transfer enough control to outside parties to satisfy the wording of the contract).

Some good background reading on the subject.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Labor_Act
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Mediation_Board

The NMB doesn’t hear the grievance nor do they arbitrate it.

The process is one company representative, one union representative and then both sides pick a neutral arbiter who will hear the case.
Last edited by Boof02671 on Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
drdisque
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:42 pm

sdh9 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
This cannot end in a strike because the United contract is not past its amendable date.


Incorrect, the amendable date has passed.

But I agree with you that a scope grievance will not end in a strike. That’s not the way the system works.


Sorry, I missed that it became amendable in February.
 
codc10
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:10 pm

Again, not an issue that has anything to do with a strike, nor does the UAL MEC want to integrate AV pilots into its seniority list under current laws (McCaskill-Bond). Doing so creates way too many problems, and United doesn't want to integrate Avianca into its operations, either.

What United WANTS to do is use its 'control' over AV to create a dual JV hub (BOG/PTY) along with CM to compete with AA/LATAM in South America. If UA gains a majority interest in AVH, and its primary business is Avianca, plus a revenue-sharing joint venture, I think the pilots' argument has merit. Assuming foreign ownership laws were of no moment, consider if Lufthansa were to take a 51%+ interest in United Continental Holdings, and maintain a revenue-sharing joint venture with UAL. Would there be any argument that Lufthansa would be in position to "control" United?

This is all about bargaining position in the ongoing contract negotiations. Through this grievance, the NC is positioning the AV issue as an open item which the company needs to resolve with pilots as part of a new collective bargaining agreement. To resolve it (or in conjunction with other issues), the pilots will be looking for the company to concede on another item, like scope...
 
FlyHossD
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:32 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Default wouldn’t necessarily lead to control either. Going back to my example, if I default on my mortgage, Bank of America forecloses on my house, and you buy the house at the foreclosure sale, there’s a good argument that Bank of America never controlled it. But, it’s a close question - perhaps made closer by the non-public documents - and there’s certainly value in having an arbitrator decide.


"Default wouldn’t necessarily lead to control either." But it does in this case; that is, my understanding is that in the event of a default of the first loan (there are now two), the rights of the prescribed shares become UAL's. So in this case, your mortgage analogy isn't accurate.

UAL has tried to sidestep the Scope requirements, but UAL still ultimately has control of the shares - that's the collateral against the loans, eh? So it's a complicated case but would anyone loan hundreds of millions of dollars (the two loans) without some sort of security?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:22 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Default wouldn’t necessarily lead to control either. Going back to my example, if I default on my mortgage, Bank of America forecloses on my house, and you buy the house at the foreclosure sale, there’s a good argument that Bank of America never controlled it. But, it’s a close question - perhaps made closer by the non-public documents - and there’s certainly value in having an arbitrator decide.


"Default wouldn’t necessarily lead to control either." But it does in this case; that is, my understanding is that in the event of a default of the first loan (there are now two), the rights of the prescribed shares become UAL's. So in this case, your mortgage analogy isn't accurate.

UAL has tried to sidestep the Scope requirements, but UAL still ultimately has control of the shares - that's the collateral against the loans, eh? So it's a complicated case but would anyone loan hundreds of millions of dollars (the two loans) without some sort of security?


If your understanding is correct (and I have no reason to doubt it), then UAL surely has the right to control, but are they exercising that right? I'm not aware of the day-to-day situation on the ground.
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FlyHossD
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:20 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Default wouldn’t necessarily lead to control either. Going back to my example, if I default on my mortgage, Bank of America forecloses on my house, and you buy the house at the foreclosure sale, there’s a good argument that Bank of America never controlled it. But, it’s a close question - perhaps made closer by the non-public documents - and there’s certainly value in having an arbitrator decide.


"Default wouldn’t necessarily lead to control either." But it does in this case; that is, my understanding is that in the event of a default of the first loan (there are now two), the rights of the prescribed shares become UAL's. So in this case, your mortgage analogy isn't accurate.

UAL has tried to sidestep the Scope requirements, but UAL still ultimately has control of the shares - that's the collateral against the loans, eh? So it's a complicated case but would anyone loan hundreds of millions of dollars (the two loans) without some sort of security?


If your understanding is correct (and I have no reason to doubt it), then UAL surely has the right to control, but are they exercising that right? I'm not aware of the day-to-day situation on the ground.


A fair question. Would loan the shares to any entity that would work against (in competition with) you? I don't believe UAL would do so - do you?

So if they're preventing the "shares manager" from working against UAL, isn't that control? If they're limiting what the shares manager can do, I'd say they (UAL) is exercising control to at least a degree and that's the violation of the UAL ALPA contract.

Time will tell of course, but I wouldn't be optimistic about UAL's chances on this one. To me, the bigger question is what will be required - divestment? A financial settlement with ALPA? Or...?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:48 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:

"Default wouldn’t necessarily lead to control either." But it does in this case; that is, my understanding is that in the event of a default of the first loan (there are now two), the rights of the prescribed shares become UAL's. So in this case, your mortgage analogy isn't accurate.

UAL has tried to sidestep the Scope requirements, but UAL still ultimately has control of the shares - that's the collateral against the loans, eh? So it's a complicated case but would anyone loan hundreds of millions of dollars (the two loans) without some sort of security?


If your understanding is correct (and I have no reason to doubt it), then UAL surely has the right to control, but are they exercising that right? I'm not aware of the day-to-day situation on the ground.


A fair question. Would loan the shares to any entity that would work against (in competition with) you? I don't believe UAL would do so - do you?

So if they're preventing the "shares manager" from working against UAL, isn't that control? If they're limiting what the shares manager can do, I'd say they (UAL) is exercising control to at least a degree and that's the violation of the UAL ALPA contract.

Time will tell of course, but I wouldn't be optimistic about UAL's chances on this one. To me, the bigger question is what will be required - divestment? A financial settlement with ALPA? Or...?


What would it look like for the shares manager to work against UA? It’s not like the networks overlap that much.
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catiii
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:32 pm

What’s the real issue they’re using this as leverage against?
 
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exunited
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:45 pm

The concern is that United will transfer their US hub flights to South and Latin America to Avianca thereby costing the United pilot group jobs, plain and simple.
 
jfk777
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:18 pm

Avianca is a problem for UA and the pilots silly demands only make things harder. Whatever UA is doing is to get their money back from Avianca and establish a joint venture with AV and Copa of Panama. United's presence in Colombia is limited to a few flights they have from Houston and Newark to Bogota flown by US based union member pilots. United's ideal situation is to sell down whatever stock they own and rid themselves of any ownership in Avianca.
 
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exunited
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:01 am

jfk777 wrote:
Avianca is a problem for UA and the pilots silly demands only make things harder. Whatever UA is doing is to get their money back from Avianca and establish a joint venture with AV and Copa of Panama. United's presence in Colombia is limited to a few flights they have from Houston and Newark to Bogota flown by US based union member pilots. United's ideal situation is to sell down whatever stock they own and rid themselves of any ownership in Avianca.


Why is demanding that United comply with the collective bargaining agreement they signed a silly demand????
 
FlyHossD
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:45 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
What would it look like for the shares manager to work against UA? It’s not like the networks overlap that much.


Working against UA's interest could take several forms, such as supporting or joining an alliance other than the Star Alliance. UA would be outraged if that happened, wouldn't they? So if they prevent that from happening - BOOM - there's control and a violation of the UAL ALPA contract.

catiii wrote:
What’s the real issue they’re using this as leverage against?


Scope. IIRC, UAL stated at the beginning of negotiations that they wanted to own another airline - a concession on Scope from UAL ALPA's perspective. Scope takes many forms, not just more RJs and out-sourcing flights to RJs or other airlines is the battleground. As I understand it - and I have talked to a couple of UAL pilots recently - DL ALPA has filed several grievances against DL for Scope violations, for placing (i.e., outsourcing) DL code on flights that DL ALPA believes should be real DL flights.

Scope is a huge issue to UAL ALPA. The legacy UA pilots - a LOT of twice furloughed UAL pilots - well remember what happened when they allowed 70 seat RJs AND allowed wide-body flights into the US in the contract before the unified/post-merger one, and the legacy CO pilots well remember what happened when 275 50 seat RJs flew for CO. Has anyone forgotten nothing but 50 seat CO RJs serving ATL-EWR?

It's a case of "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Yet since Kirby is relatively new to UA, he doesn't seem to have a sense of just how important this is to UAL pilots.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: United Pilots Say Avianca Deal Violates Scope Clause In Their Contract

Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:46 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
What would it look like for the shares manager to work against UA? It’s not like the networks overlap that much.


Working against UA's interest could take several forms, such as supporting or joining an alliance other than the Star Alliance. UA would be outraged if that happened, wouldn't they? So if they prevent that from happening - BOOM - there's control and a violation of the UAL ALPA contract.


I agree with all of that, but you are suggesting that UA might have control in the future. I don't think a possibility of future control violates the contract, but maybe there's language you have seen and I haven't.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more

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