airlineguy1234
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Delta A220 in Chicago 6/19/19

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:30 am

Just wanted to share that I was extremely lucky to fly the A220 on LGA-ORD today as it was subbed for a 717. I connected in LGA from BOS just to fly the A220 and I lucked out and got to fly it all the way to Chicago. Has anyone had any similar experiences like this and got to fly a rare aircraft on accident?

Also where else has the A220 showed up as a swap?

I hope to see the A220 with scheduled service to Chicago because it beats the Project Oasis 737s from AA and the cramped RJs from UA


Image
 
Fargo
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:36 am

To bad the plane didn't take a nice leisurely stroll through T1 to rub it into UA..........
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:50 am

Fargo wrote:
To bad the plane didn't take a nice leisurely stroll through T1 to rub it into UA..........


Yeah, like they'd care. Nice to see the Air France A-330 and the Nippon Cargo 747 in the background of the photo though! :bigthumbsup:
 
Fargo
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:00 am

yeogeo wrote:
Fargo wrote:
To bad the plane didn't take a nice leisurely stroll through T1 to rub it into UA..........


Yeah, like they'd care. Nice to see the Air France A-330 and the Nippon Cargo 747 in the background of the photo though! :bigthumbsup:


Point being UA desperately needs an aircraft like that, but refuses to get one. DL can simply show them what they are missing out on.
 
wrongwayup
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:35 am

airlineguy1234 wrote:
I hope to see the A220 with scheduled service to Chicago because it beats the Project Oasis 737s from AA and the cramped RJs from UA


I think that's the idea. They're putting it on a lot of routes into AA/UA hubs - DFW, IAH, SFO...
 
drdisque
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:48 am

Except, you know, UA doesn't fly any "cramped RJs" on ORD-LGA.
 
YellowJ
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:42 am

A rare aircraft? They have 14 in service with more on the way; not exactly what I would call rare in aircraft terms. If anything the MD family is the rare type here, considering they are no longer in production and are winding down with DL.
 
Fargo
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:19 am

drdisque wrote:
Except, you know, UA doesn't fly any "cramped RJs" on ORD-LGA.


Sure, but they don’t have a plane that can touch this. They do fly cramped RJs on a lot of routes out of ORD though.

UA seems satisfied with modifying CR7’s with 50 seats, but that’s not gonna get them anywhere.
 
N649DL
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:28 am

The 220s get around, I'd assume mostly for testing sake. It's the same reason why DEN saw a DL A350 when I lived there 2 years ago for "Hot & High" testing.

I saw an A220 at the end of December at CVG (and it's on my Instagram) connecting from EWR to LAX. In fact I figured it was scheduled from there or something.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:31 am

UA could buy the 220 if they want/need it, no?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:35 am

UA execs could, but apparently don't want to. Sounds like concern for mainline pilot productivity and all the other costs that come with mainline operation.
 
airlinerart
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:59 am

More to the point was the experience flying in the A220 any different than the norm?
 
OneX123
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:54 pm

airlineguy1234 wrote:
Just wanted to share that I was extremely lucky to fly the A220 on LGA-ORD today as it was subbed for a 717. I connected in LGA from BOS just to fly the A220 and I lucked out and got to fly it all the way to Chicago. Has anyone had any similar experiences like this and got to fly a rare aircraft on accident?

Also where else has the A220 showed up as a swap?

I hope to see the A220 with scheduled service to Chicago because it beats the Project Oasis 737s from AA and the cramped RJs from UA


Image


What does DL plan to put on BOS to ORD when they start it? An A321?

I hold equal status on AA and DL (Platinum/Gold), and while DL is a nice flying experience, I find it impossible to get into whatever their version of Economy+ is. I'm consistently in an AA exit row or up the front of economy (all free booze areas!) but always stuck in the back of DL....higher load factors maybe?
 
VC10DC10
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:21 pm

I haven't been following the DL A220 scheduling adjustments/service expansion, but I was pleasantly surprised to see an A220 with her gorgeous canted winglets landing at DCA yesterday. It flew straight over my Yellow Line train on the Charles Fenwick Bridge across the Potomac.
 
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vaughanparry
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:43 pm

Has anyone had any similar experiences like this and got to fly a rare aircraft on accident?

I flew with TAROM from STN to OTP in the early '90s and instead of the expected 737-400, we had a Tupolev 154. Rather less exotic but a first for me at the time (this was 2005 and increasingly less likely now), was a short ride on a Royal Air Maroc 767-300 from CMN to RAK when the rostered 737 broke down.
 
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OA940
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:44 pm

YellowJ wrote:
A rare aircraft? They have 14 in service with more on the way; not exactly what I would call rare in aircraft terms. If anything the MD family is the rare type here, considering they are no longer in production and are winding down with DL.


So you consider an aircraft of which 14 have been delivered in all of NA, and just a bit over 50 globally to not be rare, but a plane of which more than 150 fly in NA (counting 717s) to be rare. Interesting.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
kimimm19
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:54 pm

OA940 wrote:
YellowJ wrote:
A rare aircraft? They have 14 in service with more on the way; not exactly what I would call rare in aircraft terms. If anything the MD family is the rare type here, considering they are no longer in production and are winding down with DL.


So you consider an aircraft of which 14 have been delivered in all of NA, and just a bit over 50 globally to not be rare, but a plane of which more than 150 fly in NA (counting 717s) to be rare. Interesting.


I'm thinking he means circumstantial... 717s are generally on their way out while the a220 will be around for quite some time and increasingly so.
 
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spinotter
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:30 pm

Fargo wrote:
yeogeo wrote:
Fargo wrote:
To bad the plane didn't take a nice leisurely stroll through T1 to rub it into UA..........


Yeah, like they'd care. Nice to see the Air France A-330 and the Nippon Cargo 747 in the background of the photo though! :bigthumbsup:


Point being UA desperately needs an aircraft like that, but refuses to get one. DL can simply show them what they are missing out on.


But on the other hand, UA has 787's and many a.netters think that DL is missing the boat on that front. Will UA do a victory 787 stroll through ATL?
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:39 pm

airlineguy1234 wrote:
Has anyone had any similar experiences like this and got to fly a rare aircraft on accident?


Last month I was booked BOS-MAD-BOS to fly on the A333. That entire week the route was on the A333 but lucky for me both my flights (and the only 2 that month) got swapped to an A346. What a nice surprise that was for someone who had been dying to ride the quad!
@DadCelo
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:06 pm

spinotter wrote:
Fargo wrote:
yeogeo wrote:

Yeah, like they'd care. Nice to see the Air France A-330 and the Nippon Cargo 747 in the background of the photo though! :bigthumbsup:


Point being UA desperately needs an aircraft like that, but refuses to get one. DL can simply show them what they are missing out on.


But on the other hand, UA has 787's and many a.netters think that DL is missing the boat on that front. Will UA do a victory 787 stroll through ATL?

Did Bombardier or Airbus go cry to a government and delayed 787 deliveries to UA? Nope.
Did Boeing go cry to the US government and delayed CSeries/A220 deliveries to DL? I'll let you answer that.
 
Fargo
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:54 pm

spinotter wrote:
Fargo wrote:
yeogeo wrote:

Yeah, like they'd care. Nice to see the Air France A-330 and the Nippon Cargo 747 in the background of the photo though! :bigthumbsup:


Point being UA desperately needs an aircraft like that, but refuses to get one. DL can simply show them what they are missing out on.


But on the other hand, UA has 787's and many a.netters think that DL is missing the boat on that front. Will UA do a victory 787 stroll through ATL?


Not even remotely the same.

Most Americans fly domestically. UA is very weak domestically compared to DL/AA and even WN. They need to do some serious upgauging if they want to regain competitiveness in the domestic market. And no, the MAX 9’s and A319’s aren’t gonna cover it. Their network screams for the A220, but Scott Kirby’s stubbornness is getting in the way of any serious upgauging.
 
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OA940
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:29 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
YellowJ wrote:
A rare aircraft? They have 14 in service with more on the way; not exactly what I would call rare in aircraft terms. If anything the MD family is the rare type here, considering they are no longer in production and are winding down with DL.


So you consider an aircraft of which 14 have been delivered in all of NA, and just a bit over 50 globally to not be rare, but a plane of which more than 150 fly in NA (counting 717s) to be rare. Interesting.


I'm thinking he means circumstantial... 717s are generally on their way out while the a220 will be around for quite some time and increasingly so.


DL isn't retiring the 717 are they? Ik about the MDs, but I thought the 221s were replacing RJs on certain routes so they could expand with them.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:35 pm

vaughanparry wrote:
Has anyone had any similar experiences like this and got to fly a rare aircraft on accident?

I flew with TAROM from STN to OTP in the early '90s and instead of the expected 737-400, we had a Tupolev 154. Rather less exotic but a first for me at the time (this was 2005 and increasingly less likely now), was a short ride on a Royal Air Maroc 767-300 from CMN to RAK when the rostered 737 broke down.


Ironically, I was supposed to fly an A220 on DTW-DFW a couple of months ago, only to see the flight replaced with a 717 (my original flight on the SEA-DTW leg of my return flight from Seattle via SEA-DTW-DFW was listed as a 757 but downgauged to a 739). So, the same concept, only in reverse in my case - though I don't know if I'd call a DL 717 "rare" by comparison.

A few days later, I saw a DL 738 working LGA-DFW in place of the 220; a DL 737 in revenue service is a rare sighting into DFW (most of the 737/757 sports charters DL use to fly into Dallas typically fly into DAL; I think DL's NFL charters fly into DFW), as DFW mostly see 320s, 220s, the occasional 717 and regionals from DL.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW, PHL, MIA, LAX; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), B739 (DL), B712 (DL), B752 (AA), B763 (AA), B77W (AA), B789 (AA)
Next: TBA
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:59 pm

Fargo wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Fargo wrote:

Point being UA desperately needs an aircraft like that, but refuses to get one. DL can simply show them what they are missing out on.


But on the other hand, UA has 787's and many a.netters think that DL is missing the boat on that front. Will UA do a victory 787 stroll through ATL?


Not even remotely the same.

Most Americans fly domestically. UA is very weak domestically compared to DL/AA and even WN. They need to do some serious upgauging if they want to regain competitiveness in the domestic market. And no, the MAX 9’s and A319’s aren’t gonna cover it. Their network screams for the A220, but Scott Kirby’s stubbornness is getting in the way of any serious upgauging.


It is the same. The same users (like yourself) who insist DL "needs" the 787 are the same users who insist UA "needs" the 220. The DL fanboys on here have created a faux image of the 220 as a breakthrough, game changing aircraft. Yet absolutely nothing stops AA or UA from purchasing the 220 except for the fact that... well, they don't want it. And that's the problem -- the US airline industry is a oligopoly, which suggests that if the 220 was even "half" the plane the DL fanyboys wanted it to be, AA & UA would HAVE to purchase it.

Let's be realistic: DL wasn't interested in the C-Series, despite numerous pitches from Bombardier. They had settled on used E90 to supplement the 717... until Bombardier made DL a deal it couldn't refuse. Not exactly the Disney Fairy Tale we've been reading. Let's think about this for a moment... DL was prepared to build a fleet of secondhand E90 -- a type AA can't wait to dispose of. Reality is, the economics of the 717 / E90 / 220 -- and that includes the rent/finance payment -- work well for DL's core DTW, MSP & SLC hubs, which drive big yields partially by limiting capacity. AA & UA don't have the luxury -- Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Denver, Miami/Fort Lauderdale, Phoenix, etc. are much more competitive markets... the types of places that need more capacity than the 220 yields in order to be competitive.

Nor is UA weak domestically, for that matter -- in 2018, DL earned 28,159M in domestic revenue whereas UA earned 25,552M -- and the gap closed considerably from the PY. That's in spite of the fact that DL's network, by virtue of ATL (and AA via CLT), is in best position to handle domestic traffic, given that (a) half the population resides in the Eastern Time Zone and (b) the mass movement of traffic to Florida. DL's always been a leader in domestic passengers (by virtue of ATL), that's not going to change.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
YellowJ
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:03 pm

OA940 wrote:
YellowJ wrote:
A rare aircraft? They have 14 in service with more on the way; not exactly what I would call rare in aircraft terms. If anything the MD family is the rare type here, considering they are no longer in production and are winding down with DL.


So you consider an aircraft of which 14 have been delivered in all of NA, and just a bit over 50 globally to not be rare, but a plane of which more than 150 fly in NA (counting 717s) to be rare. Interesting.


Indeed I do, as with any new aircraft, production will be increasing and soon they will be commonplace. I would have granted you the first month or two, just for the newness of the aircraft, but with 14 already operating, I wouldn't use rare to describe it. Especially considering DL announced they would be utilized on E-Jet routes to upgauge those that couldn't quite fill a mainline aircraft.

With the MD80/90 fleet now consolidated to ATL and dwindling down rapidly, I wouldn't use the word rare here either, but it more aptly applies over the A220 as the type is no longer produced.
 
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bluefltspecial
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:29 pm

drdisque wrote:
Except, you know, UA doesn't fly any "cramped RJs" on ORD-LGA.


Interesting...

Departure Sat, Jul 6

9:00 AM
LaGuardia Airport LGA
Travel time: 2h 44m
10:44 AM
O'Hare International Airport ORD
United
Economy
Embraer RJ-175
UA 3541
Plane and crew by Republic Airlines DBA United Express

Departure Mon, Jul 8

3:00 PM
LaGuardia Airport LGA
Travel time: 2h 44m
4:44 PM
O'Hare International Airport ORD
United
Economy
Embraer RJ-175
UA 3499
Plane and crew by Republic Airlines DBA United Express

While not as cramped as a CRJ/CR7, it is, in fact, a regional jet operating for United between LGA ... on weekends and weekdays

I made a quick dummy booking checking weekends and weekdays for both carriers, and it appears it's all 717s now on the LGA-ORD route which they may or may not still market as a "shuttle" route, they do offer hourly service from 6:45-7:45 M-F reduced schedule on weekends.

United does on certain days however have more than hourly operations, sometimes offering flights on the hour and half hour.

American does offer almost hourly service as well with all B737 aircraft.

While not much of a competitor in the market, Spirit also has 2 flights one morning and evening.
Save a horse, ride a Fly-boy....
 
N649DL
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:50 pm

Fargo wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Fargo wrote:

Point being UA desperately needs an aircraft like that, but refuses to get one. DL can simply show them what they are missing out on.


But on the other hand, UA has 787's and many a.netters think that DL is missing the boat on that front. Will UA do a victory 787 stroll through ATL?


Not even remotely the same.

Most Americans fly domestically. UA is very weak domestically compared to DL/AA and even WN. They need to do some serious upgauging if they want to regain competitiveness in the domestic market. And no, the MAX 9’s and A319’s aren’t gonna cover it. Their network screams for the A220, but Scott Kirby’s stubbornness is getting in the way of any serious upgauging.


It's not so much Kirby as it is just the organization in general. They have lots of executives and managers in Willis Tower that are just stuck in their ways from even before the merger.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:21 pm

compensateme wrote:
Fargo wrote:
spinotter wrote:

But on the other hand, UA has 787's and many a.netters think that DL is missing the boat on that front. Will UA do a victory 787 stroll through ATL?


Not even remotely the same.

Most Americans fly domestically. UA is very weak domestically compared to DL/AA and even WN. They need to do some serious upgauging if they want to regain competitiveness in the domestic market. And no, the MAX 9’s and A319’s aren’t gonna cover it. Their network screams for the A220, but Scott Kirby’s stubbornness is getting in the way of any serious upgauging.


It is the same. The same users (like yourself) who insist DL "needs" the 787 are the same users who insist UA "needs" the 220. The DL fanboys on here have created a faux image of the 220 as a breakthrough, game changing aircraft. Yet absolutely nothing stops AA or UA from purchasing the 220 except for the fact that... well, they don't want it. And that's the problem -- the US airline industry is a oligopoly, which suggests that if the 220 was even "half" the plane the DL fanyboys wanted it to be, AA & UA would HAVE to purchase it.

Let's be realistic: DL wasn't interested in the C-Series, despite numerous pitches from Bombardier. They had settled on used E90 to supplement the 717... until Bombardier made DL a deal it couldn't refuse. Not exactly the Disney Fairy Tale we've been reading. Let's think about this for a moment... DL was prepared to build a fleet of secondhand E90 -- a type AA can't wait to dispose of. Reality is, the economics of the 717 / E90 / 220 -- and that includes the rent/finance payment -- work well for DL's core DTW, MSP & SLC hubs, which drive big yields partially by limiting capacity. AA & UA don't have the luxury -- Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Denver, Miami/Fort Lauderdale, Phoenix, etc. are much more competitive markets... the types of places that need more capacity than the 220 yields in order to be competitive.

Nor is UA weak domestically, for that matter -- in 2018, DL earned 28,159M in domestic revenue whereas UA earned 25,552M -- and the gap closed considerably from the PY. That's in spite of the fact that DL's network, by virtue of ATL (and AA via CLT), is in best position to handle domestic traffic, given that (a) half the population resides in the Eastern Time Zone and (b) the mass movement of traffic to Florida. DL's always been a leader in domestic passengers (by virtue of ATL), that's not going to change.

One must never challenge the A.net assertion that the A220 is a GAME CHANGER!
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:51 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
One must never challenge the A.net assertion that the A220 is a GAME CHANGER!


Kinda amazing how nobody besides a.net and DL realizes this!
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
_AA_777_MAN
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:37 pm

YellowJ wrote:
OA940 wrote:
YellowJ wrote:
A rare aircraft? They have 14 in service with more on the way; not exactly what I would call rare in aircraft terms. If anything the MD family is the rare type here, considering they are no longer in production and are winding down with DL.


So you consider an aircraft of which 14 have been delivered in all of NA, and just a bit over 50 globally to not be rare, but a plane of which more than 150 fly in NA (counting 717s) to be rare. Interesting.


Indeed I do, as with any new aircraft, production will be increasing and soon they will be commonplace. I would have granted you the first month or two, just for the newness of the aircraft, but with 14 already operating, I wouldn't use rare to describe it. Especially considering DL announced they would be utilized on E-Jet routes to upgauge those that couldn't quite fill a mainline aircraft.

With the MD80/90 fleet now consolidated to ATL and dwindling down rapidly, I wouldn't use the word rare here either, but it more aptly applies over the A220 as the type is no longer produced.


Any aircraft with only 14 frames in the US and 50 or so globally is rare. I don't care if it will one day reach 5,000 frames for the time being it is rare. Especially at ORD which was the first ever visit for this plane. Like I said for the time being it is rare, it got swapped for a 717 which ORD sees 20+ times per day to a one time A220 that has never been to ORD. And that is rare. Just my opinion though 8-)
 
YYZYYT
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:56 pm

vaughanparry wrote:
Has anyone had any similar experiences like this and got to fly a rare aircraft on accident?

I flew with TAROM from STN to OTP in the early '90s and instead of the expected 737-400, we had a Tupolev 154. Rather less exotic but a first for me at the time (this was 2005 and increasingly less likely now), was a short ride on a Royal Air Maroc 767-300 from CMN to RAK when the rostered 737 broke down.


I travel a lot between YYZ and YUL on business, and I always book in the late afternoon during the "close of business" rush, because you get a lot of positioning flights, substitutions, etc.

40 minute flight (give or take), but I've had 767, B777 and Dreamliners show up at the gate unscheduled.

(though a TU154 would've been WAY cooler)

.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:05 pm

From the top of my head I think I flew the A220 now 16 times and it is a great aircraft as a passenger. Nice big windows and if feels really spacious (LX config) and the overheads are large for a smaller aircraft. Cant speak how economical the thing is but the passenger experience (besides the startup noise of the engines) is brilliant.
 
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spinotter
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:37 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Fargo wrote:

Point being UA desperately needs an aircraft like that, but refuses to get one. DL can simply show them what they are missing out on.


But on the other hand, UA has 787's and many a.netters think that DL is missing the boat on that front. Will UA do a victory 787 stroll through ATL?

Did Bombardier or Airbus go cry to a government and delayed 787 deliveries to UA? Nope.
Did Boeing go cry to the US government and delayed CSeries/A220 deliveries to DL? I'll let you answer that.


So in your mind it is a kind of victory dance of the DL A220 at ORD?

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Will there be an A220-500, what other major airlines will order it, and so on. People get their noses out of joint because DL did not choose to accept the 787, wish them bankruptcy because of it. UA has no A220's, may they fall at ORD!
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:02 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Fargo wrote:

Point being UA desperately needs an aircraft like that, but refuses to get one. DL can simply show them what they are missing out on.


But on the other hand, UA has 787's and many a.netters think that DL is missing the boat on that front. Will UA do a victory 787 stroll through ATL?

Did Bombardier or Airbus go cry to a government and delayed 787 deliveries to UA? Nope.
Did Boeing go cry to the US government and delayed CSeries/A220 deliveries to DL? I'll let you answer that.

That doesn’t really answer why UA would care. You seem to be getting them and Boeing confused.
 
Babyshark
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:14 pm

compensateme wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
One must never challenge the A.net assertion that the A220 is a GAME CHANGER!


Kinda amazing how nobody besides a.net and DL realizes this!


I don’t think everyone at delta thinks it’s a game changer.
 
Fixinthe757
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:46 am

Don't really know why this is a big deal. 220 been at Mobile a number of times. Didnt start a thread for it.
 
evank516
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:55 am

I wouldn't be surprised to see LGA-ORD become a mix of A220s and 717s in the future. Like LGA-DFW/IAH it's a route with heavy competition from UA and AA, and with ORD being a hub for both of them, DL will probably want to use an upgraded product once they have enough in the fleet. In the meantime, I'm just glad to see LGA-ORD be all mainline.
 
questions
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:03 am

Fixinthe757 wrote:
Don't really know why this is a big deal. 220 been at Mobile a number of times. Didnt start a thread for it.


You should have!
 
TW870
Posts: 1001
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:15 am

compensateme wrote:
Fargo wrote:
spinotter wrote:

But on the other hand, UA has 787's and many a.netters think that DL is missing the boat on that front. Will UA do a victory 787 stroll through ATL?


Not even remotely the same.

Most Americans fly domestically. UA is very weak domestically compared to DL/AA and even WN. They need to do some serious upgauging if they want to regain competitiveness in the domestic market. And no, the MAX 9’s and A319’s aren’t gonna cover it. Their network screams for the A220, but Scott Kirby’s stubbornness is getting in the way of any serious upgauging.


It is the same. The same users (like yourself) who insist DL "needs" the 787 are the same users who insist UA "needs" the 220. The DL fanboys on here have created a faux image of the 220 as a breakthrough, game changing aircraft. Yet absolutely nothing stops AA or UA from purchasing the 220 except for the fact that... well, they don't want it. And that's the problem -- the US airline industry is a oligopoly, which suggests that if the 220 was even "half" the plane the DL fanyboys wanted it to be, AA & UA would HAVE to purchase it.

Let's be realistic: DL wasn't interested in the C-Series, despite numerous pitches from Bombardier. They had settled on used E90 to supplement the 717... until Bombardier made DL a deal it couldn't refuse. Not exactly the Disney Fairy Tale we've been reading. Let's think about this for a moment... DL was prepared to build a fleet of secondhand E90 -- a type AA can't wait to dispose of. Reality is, the economics of the 717 / E90 / 220 -- and that includes the rent/finance payment -- work well for DL's core DTW, MSP & SLC hubs, which drive big yields partially by limiting capacity. AA & UA don't have the luxury -- Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Denver, Miami/Fort Lauderdale, Phoenix, etc. are much more competitive markets... the types of places that need more capacity than the 220 yields in order to be competitive.

Nor is UA weak domestically, for that matter -- in 2018, DL earned 28,159M in domestic revenue whereas UA earned 25,552M -- and the gap closed considerably from the PY. That's in spite of the fact that DL's network, by virtue of ATL (and AA via CLT), is in best position to handle domestic traffic, given that (a) half the population resides in the Eastern Time Zone and (b) the mass movement of traffic to Florida. DL's always been a leader in domestic passengers (by virtue of ATL), that's not going to change.


I agree with some of your post, but you need to put it in even wider context. Early in the project, Bombardier tried to sell the CSeries as a giant RJ. Republic ordered it as such. I think the management fantasy at some carriers is that they would somehow get scope relief to fly this large, efficient, GTF powered bird at subcontracted labor costs and working conditions. Given the pilot shortage, that never happened. Then, Bombardier regrouped, and used discounting to get the airplane back in the game but on the mainline end.

I love a clean sheet, efficient, new airplane in the market, and I hope others buy it. I think it would have been considerably more successful, though, if Bombardier would have had the guts to sell it right away as an actual game changer and not just another outsourcing machine like the CRJ series. I think the jet is very much going to catch on, but it needed a clearer plan from the get go.

I also generally agree with your point about DTW, MSP, and SLC having the fare premium to favor smaller jets - although the fact that half the block hours right now are on LGA-Texas works against your point. DL clearly does see this airplane as a new competitive tool.
 
Fixinthe757
Posts: 212
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:02 pm

questions wrote:
Fixinthe757 wrote:
Don't really know why this is a big deal. 220 been at Mobile a number of times. Didnt start a thread for it.


You should have!

Lol! Apparently so. :bigthumbsup: :biggrin:
 
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tlecam
Posts: 1418
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:32 pm

bluefltspecial wrote:
drdisque wrote:
Except, you know, UA doesn't fly any "cramped RJs" on ORD-LGA.


Interesting...

Departure Sat, Jul 6

9:00 AM
LaGuardia Airport LGA
Travel time: 2h 44m
10:44 AM
O'Hare International Airport ORD
United
Economy
Embraer RJ-175
UA 3541
Plane and crew by Republic Airlines DBA United Express

Departure Mon, Jul 8

3:00 PM
LaGuardia Airport LGA
Travel time: 2h 44m
4:44 PM
O'Hare International Airport ORD
United
Economy
Embraer RJ-175
UA 3499
Plane and crew by Republic Airlines DBA United Express

While not as cramped as a CRJ/CR7, it is, in fact, a regional jet operating for United between LGA ... on weekends and weekdays

I made a quick dummy booking checking weekends and weekdays for both carriers, and it appears it's all 717s now on the LGA-ORD route which they may or may not still market as a "shuttle" route, they do offer hourly service from 6:45-7:45 M-F reduced schedule on weekends.

United does on certain days however have more than hourly operations, sometimes offering flights on the hour and half hour.

American does offer almost hourly service as well with all B737 aircraft.

While not much of a competitor in the market, Spirit also has 2 flights one morning and evening.


The 717s on the route is somewhat recent. All winter, the vast majority of the DL flights on LGA-ORD were E75s. On certain days, they might have had a 717 on the route for peak times (Monday AM, Thursday PM).

I’m fine with either plane. I like the seats on the E75 better but the 717 is fine too. I was on 1214 last night into LGA.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1636
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:33 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Fargo wrote:

Not even remotely the same.

Most Americans fly domestically. UA is very weak domestically compared to DL/AA and even WN. They need to do some serious upgauging if they want to regain competitiveness in the domestic market. And no, the MAX 9’s and A319’s aren’t gonna cover it. Their network screams for the A220, but Scott Kirby’s stubbornness is getting in the way of any serious upgauging.


It is the same. The same users (like yourself) who insist DL "needs" the 787 are the same users who insist UA "needs" the 220. The DL fanboys on here have created a faux image of the 220 as a breakthrough, game changing aircraft. Yet absolutely nothing stops AA or UA from purchasing the 220 except for the fact that... well, they don't want it. And that's the problem -- the US airline industry is a oligopoly, which suggests that if the 220 was even "half" the plane the DL fanyboys wanted it to be, AA & UA would HAVE to purchase it.

Let's be realistic: DL wasn't interested in the C-Series, despite numerous pitches from Bombardier. They had settled on used E90 to supplement the 717... until Bombardier made DL a deal it couldn't refuse. Not exactly the Disney Fairy Tale we've been reading. Let's think about this for a moment... DL was prepared to build a fleet of secondhand E90 -- a type AA can't wait to dispose of. Reality is, the economics of the 717 / E90 / 220 -- and that includes the rent/finance payment -- work well for DL's core DTW, MSP & SLC hubs, which drive big yields partially by limiting capacity. AA & UA don't have the luxury -- Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Denver, Miami/Fort Lauderdale, Phoenix, etc. are much more competitive markets... the types of places that need more capacity than the 220 yields in order to be competitive.

Nor is UA weak domestically, for that matter -- in 2018, DL earned 28,159M in domestic revenue whereas UA earned 25,552M -- and the gap closed considerably from the PY. That's in spite of the fact that DL's network, by virtue of ATL (and AA via CLT), is in best position to handle domestic traffic, given that (a) half the population resides in the Eastern Time Zone and (b) the mass movement of traffic to Florida. DL's always been a leader in domestic passengers (by virtue of ATL), that's not going to change.

One must never challenge the A.net assertion that the A220 is a GAME CHANGER!


With all due respect to you and Compensateme, I think you are underestimating the impact the aircraft will have. I've spoken to enough planners at current and future 220 operators to know that this airplane is going to be used for missions that were never previously feasible. I'm not just talking about markets that would utilize its unique performance capabilities. I'm talking about markets made possible by sheer operating economics alone. Longer, thinner markets are going to be this airplanes specialty.

Its combination of size and economy is going to transform some 2nd tier airports into true gateways for carriers like Moxy. Take a look at the biggest markets in the country and draw a 60 minute drive radius. Airports within that radius will have an incredible opportunity with the 220. Some are obvious...ONT, OAK, SWF, FNT, CAK for example. But, and I say this as a long-term skeptic of many of these markets, also places like GYY, ABE, ORH, LAL, MLB, CLD. I know it seems a little crazy now, but as congestion chokes the large hubs, the 220 will help bypass them for a segment of the traveling public. It can do that because it doesn't need to offer 180+ seats to get the economics to work.

We haven't seen anything game-changing yet from Delta because Delta is engaging in a strategic deployment in existing markets. But that will change. I suspect that the markets that will most likely open eyes first will be from the West hubs to smaller markets in the East. I think we will see a heavy dose of this once the SLC terminal is open. I also think this airplane could eventually be what supports AUS becoming a mini-hub.

I guess "game-changer" is subjective...but the 220 is going to successfully do a lot of things never done successfully before. In my mind, that is a game-changer. There are lots of reasons other airlines haven't purchased the aircraft...most of them related to Bombardier's relative weakness and the incredible market power of Airbus and Boeing. That is changing now and we are starting to see it reflecting in sales.
 
wrongwayup
Posts: 372
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Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:01 pm

jetlanta wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
compensateme wrote:

It is the same. The same users (like yourself) who insist DL "needs" the 787 are the same users who insist UA "needs" the 220. The DL fanboys on here have created a faux image of the 220 as a breakthrough, game changing aircraft. Yet absolutely nothing stops AA or UA from purchasing the 220 except for the fact that... well, they don't want it. And that's the problem -- the US airline industry is a oligopoly, which suggests that if the 220 was even "half" the plane the DL fanyboys wanted it to be, AA & UA would HAVE to purchase it.

Let's be realistic: DL wasn't interested in the C-Series, despite numerous pitches from Bombardier. They had settled on used E90 to supplement the 717... until Bombardier made DL a deal it couldn't refuse. Not exactly the Disney Fairy Tale we've been reading. Let's think about this for a moment... DL was prepared to build a fleet of secondhand E90 -- a type AA can't wait to dispose of. Reality is, the economics of the 717 / E90 / 220 -- and that includes the rent/finance payment -- work well for DL's core DTW, MSP & SLC hubs, which drive big yields partially by limiting capacity. AA & UA don't have the luxury -- Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Denver, Miami/Fort Lauderdale, Phoenix, etc. are much more competitive markets... the types of places that need more capacity than the 220 yields in order to be competitive.

Nor is UA weak domestically, for that matter -- in 2018, DL earned 28,159M in domestic revenue whereas UA earned 25,552M -- and the gap closed considerably from the PY. That's in spite of the fact that DL's network, by virtue of ATL (and AA via CLT), is in best position to handle domestic traffic, given that (a) half the population resides in the Eastern Time Zone and (b) the mass movement of traffic to Florida. DL's always been a leader in domestic passengers (by virtue of ATL), that's not going to change.

One must never challenge the A.net assertion that the A220 is a GAME CHANGER!


With all due respect to you and Compensateme, I think you are underestimating the impact the aircraft will have. I've spoken to enough planners at current and future 220 operators to know that this airplane is going to be used for missions that were never previously feasible. I'm not just talking about markets that would utilize its unique performance capabilities. I'm talking about markets made possible by sheer operating economics alone. Longer, thinner markets are going to be this airplanes specialty.

Its combination of size and economy is going to transform some 2nd tier airports into true gateways for carriers like Moxy. Take a look at the biggest markets in the country and draw a 60 minute drive radius. Airports within that radius will have an incredible opportunity with the 220. Some are obvious...ONT, OAK, SWF, FNT, CAK for example. But, and I say this as a long-term skeptic of many of these markets, also places like GYY, ABE, ORH, LAL, MLB, CLD. I know it seems a little crazy now, but as congestion chokes the large hubs, the 220 will help bypass them for a segment of the traveling public. It can do that because it doesn't need to offer 180+ seats to get the economics to work.

We haven't seen anything game-changing yet from Delta because Delta is engaging in a strategic deployment in existing markets. But that will change. I suspect that the markets that will most likely open eyes first will be from the West hubs to smaller markets in the East. I think we will see a heavy dose of this once the SLC terminal is open. I also think this airplane could eventually be what supports AUS becoming a mini-hub.

I guess "game-changer" is subjective...but the 220 is going to successfully do a lot of things never done successfully before. In my mind, that is a game-changer. There are lots of reasons other airlines haven't purchased the aircraft...most of them related to Bombardier's relative weakness and the incredible market power of Airbus and Boeing. That is changing now and we are starting to see it reflecting in sales.


Couldn't agree more. Ben Smith said it best at Air Canada - this airplane will do for short-haul what the 787 did for long haul.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:28 pm

jetlanta wrote:
With all due respect to you and Compensateme, I think you are underestimating the impact the aircraft will have. I've spoken to enough planners at current and future 220 operators to know that this airplane is going to be used for missions that were never previously feasible. I'm not just talking about markets that would utilize its unique performance capabilities. I'm talking about markets made possible by sheer operating economics alone. Longer, thinner markets are going to be this airplanes specialty.

Its combination of size and economy is going to transform some 2nd tier airports into true gateways for carriers like Moxy. Take a look at the biggest markets in the country and draw a 60 minute drive radius. Airports within that radius will have an incredible opportunity with the 220. Some are obvious...ONT, OAK, SWF, FNT, CAK for example. But, and I say this as a long-term skeptic of many of these markets, also places like GYY, ABE, ORH, LAL, MLB, CLD. I know it seems a little crazy now, but as congestion chokes the large hubs, the 220 will help bypass them for a segment of the traveling public. It can do that because it doesn't need to offer 180+ seats to get the economics to work.

We haven't seen anything game-changing yet from Delta because Delta is engaging in a strategic deployment in existing markets. But that will change. I suspect that the markets that will most likely open eyes first will be from the West hubs to smaller markets in the East. I think we will see a heavy dose of this once the SLC terminal is open. I also think this airplane could eventually be what supports AUS becoming a mini-hub.

I guess "game-changer" is subjective...but the 220 is going to successfully do a lot of things never done successfully before. In my mind, that is a game-changer. There are lots of reasons other airlines haven't purchased the aircraft...most of them related to Bombardier's relative weakness and the incredible market power of Airbus and Boeing. That is changing now and we are starting to see it reflecting in sales.


No disrespect taken; you've long been the guilty party in spreading the narrative that the 220 is a "game changer." But as I mentioned in my previous posting, the domestic airline industry is an oligopoly. The 321XLR will likely be an example of a "game changing" aircraft -- AA ordered it, credible sources have long reported DL will order it and it'd be shocking if UA - which has expressed interest in the aircraft - doesn't do the same. That's kinda what happens in a oligopoly.

But the 220? AA and UA are explicit that they're not interested in similar-sized aircraft. DL itself turned down Bombardier on multiple occasions, ultimately settling on building a fleet of used E90 -- until Bombardier made DL a deal it couldn't refuse, which allegedly included rebates for the losses DL incurred from the E90. You remember... a deal so good, Boeing sued Bombardier. Like I said, this sounds awfully different from the Disney Fair Tale fantasy you're pretaking in, projecting (in the past) LAX-RIC, LAX-ABE.

The economics of a small jet simply work well for DL's hub structure (@SLC/MSP/DTW), which relies on limiting capacity to increase yield. I wouldn't be surprised if, a decade from now, the 220-100 fleet doesn't grow beyond the 45 already ordered, and most of the jets are on similar routes as to what they're performing today (e.g. MSP/DTW - IAH/DFW/MIA/EWR, etc.) DL has been decreasing the number of flights from medium/small east coast markets to MSP, in favor of operating larger jets to ATL & DTW, and I doubt they're suddenly going to be interested in linking them to SLC. And while we may see a few "oddball routes," I'd look for MSP-SNA with a 220-300 to be a typical route rather than CLD-ATL.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
wrongwayup
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:23 pm

Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:59 pm

[quote="compensateme"][/quote]

Re: the XLR, it's a lot easier to convince an airline to order a slightly modified type of an aircraft they already fly (A32xNEO), to serve a market that they already serve (757), when it is starting to look more and more like there will be nothing else in that space (NMA). The A220 will have its' day will come but Airbus is fighting the same uphill battle Bombardier fought - at least they are doing it with a bigger army.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1093
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:03 am

compensateme wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
One must never challenge the A.net assertion that the A220 is a GAME CHANGER!


Kinda amazing how nobody besides a.net and DL realizes this!


Yep, dumb old Delta. You can compare their operational reliability, profitability, and customer service scores to AA and UAL and see how stupid Delta is! Delta have no idea what they are doing! Said no one ever (or at least not in the last 5 years).

Let me say this one more time: the 4 abreast E2 cannot compete with the 5 abreast A220.
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 922
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:52 am

FluidFlow wrote:
From the top of my head I think I flew the A220 now 16 times and it is a great aircraft as a passenger. Nice big windows and if feels really spacious (LX config) and the overheads are large for a smaller aircraft. Cant speak how economical the thing is but the passenger experience (besides the startup noise of the engines) is brilliant.


At first, I did find the start-up noise of the engines to be awkward, but now that I've seen them take off from DFW a few more times (and actually flown one recently), it's unique and it's kind of grown on me. You often hear that same "whale-sounding" noise when a 221 is arriving into an airport. Trust me, I can tell when the 220s are arriving into DFW just by that sound alone.

That said, and forgive me if I'm sounding redundant, but the passenger experience on DL's A220 is the best narrow-body experience I've encountered ... and WN is usually my first choice for flying (so, let's not start with the nonsense that I'm some DL fanboy). It's a vastly superior product to AA's 738 Oasis experience, that's for sure.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW, PHL, MIA, LAX; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), B739 (DL), B712 (DL), B752 (AA), B763 (AA), B77W (AA), B789 (AA)
Next: TBA
 
Babyshark
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:10 am

SteelChair wrote:
compensateme wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
One must never challenge the A.net assertion that the A220 is a GAME CHANGER!


Kinda amazing how nobody besides a.net and DL realizes this!


Yep, dumb old Delta. You can compare their operational reliability, profitability, and customer service scores to AA and UAL and see how stupid Delta is! Delta have no idea what they are doing! Said no one ever (or at least not in the last 5 years).

Let me say this one more time: the 4 abreast E2 cannot compete with the 5 abreast A220.


I'll take 2x2 any day over 2x3
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5603
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:18 am

I like 2x2 E75s as well - but the CASM of an ERJ-175 can't begin to compare to an A220-100. It's not just tech generational, either - E75-2s won't be CASM-competitive with 220s. (And they aren't RJ scope-compliant.)
 
umichman
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:42 am

Re: Delta A220 in Chicago Today

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:05 pm

OneX123 wrote:

What does DL plan to put on BOS to ORD when they start it? An A321?

I hold equal status on AA and DL (Platinum/Gold), and while DL is a nice flying experience, I find it impossible to get into whatever their version of Economy+ is. I'm consistently in an AA exit row or up the front of economy (all free booze areas!) but always stuck in the back of DL....higher load factors maybe?


DL doesn't count Exit Rows as Comfort+ like AA does, and as a DL Gold you can pick those seats at time of booking (Comfort+ upgrade window does not open until 72 hours prior to flight for Gold's). You won't get free booze, but at least you'll get more legroom. Or, you could concentrate your flying on DL and make Plat which will give you Comfort+ at time of booking. If you only book flights a few days out, I suppose it probably won't make much of a difference as the seats tend to be mostly taken by then.

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