TTailedTiger
Topic Author
Posts: 1253
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:35 am

Delta 1316 LAX-MEM diverted to LIT because of weather I assume. The flight isn't going to continue to MEM until 9:30 am. Did the crew time out? How sad for the passengers. I assume they weren't given hotel accommodations since Delta didn't cancel the flight. It doesn't seem wise to send a crew that is on the edge of their duty way when bad weather was forcasted for MEM. Everyone knew it was coming. Send a fresh crew, wait out the storm, and fly the 20 minutes to MEM.
 
ScorpioMC3
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:52 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:52 am

::deep breath::
There are literally countless reasons why they could not send a "fresh crew" for this flight, if in fact that is why they are delayed out.
 
SAAFNAV
Posts: 568
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:41 pm

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:19 am

Why the deep emotional involvement if you weren't on the flight.

Stuff happens, things must go on. Kinda sad that you have to monitor all this, and have to create threads about delayed flights.
L-382 Loadmaster; ex C-130B Navigator
 
jmc1975
Posts: 3001
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:26 am

This is almost a daily occurrence in this industry. Sad? Perhaps. Unusual? No.
.......
 
TTailedTiger
Topic Author
Posts: 1253
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:27 am

SAAFNAV wrote:
Why the deep emotional involvement if you weren't on the flight.

Stuff happens, things must go on. Kinda sad that you have to monitor all this, and have to create threads about delayed flights.


A relative will be on that flight Friday and I was looking at the on time stats. If Delta wants to market themselves as a premium airline then they need to take care of their customers. If they have enough extra money to provide a "free" charter to cover AA's canceled flight then they should have enough money to put their passengers in hotels when a late night 9+ hour delay occurs.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2316
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:32 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
SAAFNAV wrote:
Why the deep emotional involvement if you weren't on the flight.

Stuff happens, things must go on. Kinda sad that you have to monitor all this, and have to create threads about delayed flights.


A relative will be on that flight Friday and I was looking at the on time stats. If Delta wants to market themselves as a premium airline then they need to take care of their customers. If they have enough extra money to provide a "free" charter to cover AA's canceled flight then they should have enough money to put their passengers in hotels when a late night 9+ hour delay occurs.

:checkmark:
I really do have to kind of agree with that. Point taken.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6276
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:29 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
I assume they weren't given hotel accommodations since Delta didn't cancel the flight. It doesn't seem wise to send a crew that is on the edge of their duty way when bad weather was forcasted for MEM. Everyone knew it was coming. Send a fresh crew, wait out the storm, and fly the 20 minutes to MEM.


Is this an American (country, not airline) rule, as I have seen it mentioned a few times? Where I fly, if a flight is delayed say 12 hours or cancelled and reaccomodated 12 hours later, the handling of the passengers is the same. Delaying the flight indefintely, or even a long planned delay, is the same to the folks hanging around the departure lounge.

I do understand though, that "weather" is one of those wild cards when handling passengers.

The last time I have seen this occur, the flight was delayed 16 hours. Same crew, same (fixed) aircraft, same flight number. The passengers were all given food vouchers, hotels and limos.

With regard to crew planning, that too is a wild card. I have raised it with Flight Dispatch and Crew Scheduling a few times. Namely, when flying a YYZ-SFO-YYZ (for example) single day cycle, is it wise to send the crew back to YYZ where weather is marginal. A fresh crew would allow far more options. Sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't. I think it really depends on crew availability.

When they don't listen, then I work with Flight Dispatch. I request an alternate that has facilities to handle 200+ passengers and agents to do just that, as whereever we land, we are shutting down. They always agree and going into YYZ, that would mean a YOW or YUL alternate. (instead of YHM or BUF).
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
User avatar
DL747400
Posts: 657
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:50 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
SAAFNAV wrote:
Why the deep emotional involvement if you weren't on the flight.

Stuff happens, things must go on. Kinda sad that you have to monitor all this, and have to create threads about delayed flights.


A relative will be on that flight Friday and I was looking at the on time stats. If Delta wants to market themselves as a premium airline then they need to take care of their customers. If they have enough extra money to provide a "free" charter to cover AA's canceled flight then they should have enough money to put their passengers in hotels when a late night 9+ hour delay occurs.


Please provide evidence that DL did not take care of these customers in accordance with the guidelines in their Contract of Carriage.

See page 17, RULE 19, section B, subsecions (a), (b) and (c): https://www.delta.com/content/dam/delta ... dl-dgr.pdf
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7267
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:15 pm

Sigh.....this happens all the times in the case of weather diversions. It is always a risk the crew may time-out if its the end of the day. Non-event that happens at all airlines.

When they diverted to LIT, its unknown when they could depart for MEM, eventually the crew will time-out. They either had to wait for crew rest until the morning, or more likely they were able to deadhead in a fresh crew on the first ATL-LIT flight in the morning to fly the plane from LIT-MEM.

In these situations a good number of passengers likely took matters into their own hands:
1) Some probably rented cars and drove to MEM
2) Some probably got hotel rooms at their own expense
3) Some stayed in the terminal all night

Business travelers have their expenses paid for likely got hotel rooms or cars on the companies expense.
Its up to the individual if they want to sleep in the airport or get a hotel. In my 20s I used to sleep in airports, now I much prefer a bed and an extra $120 isn't going to break my wallet.
 
zuckie13
Posts: 158
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:55 pm

DL747400 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
SAAFNAV wrote:
Why the deep emotional involvement if you weren't on the flight.

Stuff happens, things must go on. Kinda sad that you have to monitor all this, and have to create threads about delayed flights.


A relative will be on that flight Friday and I was looking at the on time stats. If Delta wants to market themselves as a premium airline then they need to take care of their customers. If they have enough extra money to provide a "free" charter to cover AA's canceled flight then they should have enough money to put their passengers in hotels when a late night 9+ hour delay occurs.


Please provide evidence that DL did not take care of these customers in accordance with the guidelines in their Contract of Carriage.

See page 17, RULE 19, section B, subsecions (a), (b) and (c): https://www.delta.com/content/dam/delta ... dl-dgr.pdf


"If overnight accommodations are available at Delta contracted facilities.....". The cynic in me says they probably make sure they have very few "contracted facilities" available, in order to minimize how often they actually have to do this.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2140
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:26 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Delta 1316 LAX-MEM diverted to LIT because of weather I assume. The flight isn't going to continue to MEM until 9:30 am. Did the crew time out? How sad for the passengers. I assume they weren't given hotel accommodations since Delta didn't cancel the flight. It doesn't seem wise to send a crew that is on the edge of their duty way when bad weather was forcasted for MEM. Everyone knew it was coming. Send a fresh crew, wait out the storm, and fly the 20 minutes to MEM.


And last night June 19 UA delayed UA979 EWER-EZE for 13 hours after the crew timed out do to weather at EWR and had to return to the blocks.
Waiting out the storm doesn't always equal you getting to your destination in a timely manner. Calling in fresh crews as you stated is easier said than done and when an airline calls in a fresh crew as you call them here at UA if I'm not mistaken I believe pilots and I think FA's ave 3-4 hours to show up after the acknowledge the call. In some situation there are no easy answers but rest assured airlines are trying to get you to your destination first and foremost safely. Safely means complying with FAR 117.
 
777Mech
Posts: 751
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:27 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
SAAFNAV wrote:
Why the deep emotional involvement if you weren't on the flight.

Stuff happens, things must go on. Kinda sad that you have to monitor all this, and have to create threads about delayed flights.


A relative will be on that flight Friday and I was looking at the on time stats. If Delta wants to market themselves as a premium airline then they need to take care of their customers. If they have enough extra money to provide a "free" charter to cover AA's canceled flight then they should have enough money to put their passengers in hotels when a late night 9+ hour delay occurs.


Sorry to rain on your parade, but the pax were provided accommodations. Even the nonrevs were taken care of.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
Posts: 422
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:09 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:43 pm

I sometimes wonder if FAR 117 makes situations like these turn into RONs more often than in the past? Yes, 117 is a safer way of doing things but just like the DOT 3 hour taxi rule it is not without its negative consequences.

Yes, they could have used a fresh crew. However, doing that might mean calling in a reserve crew which often can mean there is not much gain in daily duty time from using the original crew.

Also, the crew used may have been fresh. Unless you know the pilots or someone in DL OCC, you won't know if the crew had legal hours remaining but declared themselves fatigued. This is quite common with late night diversions.
Last edited by MSJYOP28Apilot on Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Scarebus34
Posts: 289
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:44 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
I sometimes wonder if FAR 117 makes situations like these turn into RONs more often than in the past? Yes, 117 is a safer way of doing things but just like the DOT 3 hour taxi rule it is not without its negative consequences.

Yes, they could have used a fresh crew. However, doing that means calling in a reserve crew which often can mean there is not much gain in daily duty time from using the original crew.

Also, the crew used may have been fresh. Unless you know the pilots or someone in DL OCC, you won't know if the crew had legal hours remaining but declared themselves fatigued. This is quite common with late night diversions.

Yes it does. You used to be able to continue with a diversion, now it doesn’t matter. When they’re done, they’re done.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2326
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:47 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
If they have enough extra money to provide a "free" charter to cover AA's canceled flight then they should have enough money to put their passengers in hotels when a late night 9+ hour delay occurs.


First off the “free” flight wasn’t free, there was revenue collected. And secondly, it gave Delta the opportunity for a great amount of self-congratulatory promotion. This flight offered none of the above. Delta had already been paid and they can’t promote how great they are for simply providing their own passengers the service for which they paid. Which is why these passengers, unlike a group of random school kids, got the rubber end of the plunger.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13844
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:49 pm

IPFreely wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If they have enough extra money to provide a "free" charter to cover AA's canceled flight then they should have enough money to put their passengers in hotels when a late night 9+ hour delay occurs.


First off the “free” flight wasn’t free, there was revenue collected. And secondly, it gave Delta the opportunity for a great amount of self-congratulatory promotion. This flight offered none of the above. Delta had already been paid and they can’t promote how great they are for simply providing their own passengers the service for which they paid. Which is why these passengers, unlike a group of random school kids, got the rubber end of the plunger.


What is the evidence that they "got the rubber end of the plunger?"
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2326
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:00 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
What is the evidence that they "got the rubber end of the plunger?"


Putting pax they a 12 hour delay because crew issues prevented them from flying the last 120 miles is giving them the rubber end of the plunger. If Delta really cared about the pax they could have chartered a bus to get them to MEM last night. After all, just last week we heard that Delta employees were totally empowered to think outside the box and serve stranded AA passengers. Surely they’re empowered to serve their own stranded passengers as well? I’m sure at least a few who were counting on getting home rented cars and drive themselves the rest of the way.
 
ilovelamp
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:45 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:02 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
I sometimes wonder if FAR 117 makes situations like these turn into RONs more often than in the past? Yes, 117 is a safer way of doing things but just like the DOT 3 hour taxi rule it is not without its negative consequences.

Yes, they could have used a fresh crew. However, doing that might mean calling in a reserve crew which often can mean there is not much gain in daily duty time from using the original crew.

Also, the crew used may have been fresh. Unless you know the pilots or someone in DL OCC, you won't know if the crew had legal hours remaining but declared themselves fatigued. This is quite common with late night diversions.


The pilots were up against the 9 hour block rule. That’s a hard limit and can’t be violated prior to takeoff.
 
ilovelamp
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:45 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:10 pm

Delta has no crew resources in LIT other than RON crews. There’s no guarantee there was a 737 crew there. In these particular situations any airline tries to inconvenience as few pax and crews as possible so flying in another crew is the best course of action.

Bus charter companies don’t just keep spare busses around in the hopes someone needs them last minute. You’ve got a chip on your shoulder when it comes to Delta. So, maybe a little less emotion and more facts and common sense. Your bias shines through.

These pax were on the ground less than 8 hours. That’s a decent turn time given the circumstances.
 
TTailedTiger
Topic Author
Posts: 1253
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:13 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
Delta has no crew resources in LIT other than RON crews. There’s no guarantee there was a 737 crew there. In these particular situations any airline tries to inconvenience as few pax and crews as possible so flying in another crew is the best course of action.

Bus charter companies don’t just keep spare busses around in the hopes someone needs them last minute. You’ve got a chip on your shoulder when it comes to Delta. So, maybe a little less emotion and more facts and common sense. Your bias shines through.

These pax were on the ground less than 8 hours. That’s a decent turn time given the circumstances.


I'm saying they knew bad weather was coming to MEM before they even left LAX. LAX is a 737 base so they should have called in a fresh crew to begin their duty day to operate the LAX-MEM flight since there was a very good chance it would be diverted.
 
ilovelamp
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:45 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:18 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
Delta has no crew resources in LIT other than RON crews. There’s no guarantee there was a 737 crew there. In these particular situations any airline tries to inconvenience as few pax and crews as possible so flying in another crew is the best course of action.

Bus charter companies don’t just keep spare busses around in the hopes someone needs them last minute. You’ve got a chip on your shoulder when it comes to Delta. So, maybe a little less emotion and more facts and common sense. Your bias shines through.

These pax were on the ground less than 8 hours. That’s a decent turn time given the circumstances.


I'm saying they knew bad weather was coming to MEM before they even left LAX. LAX is a 737 base so they should have called in a fresh crew to begin their duty day to operate the LAX-MEM flight since there was a very good chance it would be diverted.


I wasn’t directing that post to you, for the record. For some reason the quote function didn’t work.

Weather, especially TS, is notoriously difficult to predict down to precise ETAs. I don’t know what the TAF looked like in the preflight paperwork but neither the dispatcher nor the crew would have launched knowing a divert was in their future. I think the timing of the storms changed dramatically en route which made this unfortunate experience happen.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7267
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:19 pm

A couple of weeks ago a similar situation arose at MSP, where a line of storms moving through stalled out over the airport. It is very difficult to accurately forecast thunderstorm activity over a very localized area. Had the line of cells continued to move through or had become stationary 10 miles further east, the aircraft en-route would have been able to arrive as planned, with at best maybe a 10-20 minute hold.

A number of aircraft had to divert to stations like RST, GRB, GFK, & FAR. Some aircraft were able to gas-and-go once the ground-stop as MSP was lifted, but about 5-6 flights had crews time-out at the diversion airports around 8-9pm. Fortunetely since MSP had enough reserve crews that DL was able to deadhead them out on the last scheduled flights of the evening from MSP to the outstations so they could fly the diverted flights up to MSP.

My flight from DTW to MSP diverted to GRB where the crew timed-out. We were able to get off the plane and hang-out in the terminal for the next 3+ hours. They deadheaded in a set of reserve 737 pilots on the last MSP-GRB flight of the evening and then we boarded and departed for MSP. We were almost 8 hours late into MSP because of the weather and crew issues.

This stuff happens from time to time.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
Posts: 422
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:09 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:22 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
I sometimes wonder if FAR 117 makes situations like these turn into RONs more often than in the past? Yes, 117 is a safer way of doing things but just like the DOT 3 hour taxi rule it is not without its negative consequences.

Yes, they could have used a fresh crew. However, doing that might mean calling in a reserve crew which often can mean there is not much gain in daily duty time from using the original crew.

Also, the crew used may have been fresh. Unless you know the pilots or someone in DL OCC, you won't know if the crew had legal hours remaining but declared themselves fatigued. This is quite common with late night diversions.


The pilots were up against the 9 hour block rule. That’s a hard limit and can’t be violated prior to takeoff.


LAX-MEM is probably close to a 4 hour block flight. Under FAR 117, you only come up on 9 hour block rule if you start the day after midnight or you have a 4-5 leg day. This is not a flight that starts after midnight so this is a case of Delta over-scheduling this crew if what you say is true about the 9 hour block limit.
 
STLflyer
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:08 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:24 pm

Do people really have nothing better to do than watch Flight aware for random diversions, then criticize how the airline handled it even though they weren't on the plane?

There's a reason why Delta's dispatchers have that job and you don't. If you think you can do better, then send your resume to Delta.
 
ilovelamp
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:45 am

Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:27 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
I sometimes wonder if FAR 117 makes situations like these turn into RONs more often than in the past? Yes, 117 is a safer way of doing things but just like the DOT 3 hour taxi rule it is not without its negative consequences.

Yes, they could have used a fresh crew. However, doing that might mean calling in a reserve crew which often can mean there is not much gain in daily duty time from using the original crew.

Also, the crew used may have been fresh. Unless you know the pilots or someone in DL OCC, you won't know if the crew had legal hours remaining but declared themselves fatigued. This is quite common with late night diversions.


The pilots were up against the 9 hour block rule. That’s a hard limit and can’t be violated prior to takeoff.


LAX-MEM is probably close to a 4 hour block flight. Under FAR 117, you only come up on 9 hour block rule if you start the day after midnight or you have a 4-5 leg day. This is not a flight that starts after midnight so this is a case of Delta over-scheduling this crew if what you say is true about the 9 hour block limit.


This crew had a 9 hour block limit. They flew two legs which were both scheduled above 4 hours. This is very common scheduling practice. 99% of the time there are no issues. Unfortunately, this time it caused an issue.

I suggest you brush up on 117. Any pilot who reports 0500-1959 can be scheduled up to 9 hours of block. See FAR 117 Table A.

I won’t divulge how much time they had left under this limit. Suffice it to say they didn’t have enough to get to MEM.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
Posts: 422
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:09 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:33 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:

The pilots were up against the 9 hour block rule. That’s a hard limit and can’t be violated prior to takeoff.


LAX-MEM is probably close to a 4 hour block flight. Under FAR 117, you only come up on 9 hour block rule if you start the day after midnight or you have a 4-5 leg day. This is not a flight that starts after midnight so this is a case of Delta over-scheduling this crew if what you say is true about the 9 hour block limit.


This crew had a 9 hour block limit. They flew two legs which were both scheduled above 4 hours. This is very common scheduling practice. 99% of the time there are no issues. Unfortunately, this time it caused an issue.

I suggest you brush up on 117. Any pilot who reports 0500-1959 can be scheduled up to 9 hours of block. See FAR 117 Table A.

I won’t divulge how much time they had left under this limit. Suffice it to say they didn’t have enough to get to MEM.


Table A is flying time. Table B is duty time. I suggest you brush up on your FAR 117 legalities.

If an airline is scheduling pilots close to 9 hours flying time then yes it is over-scheduling. Just because every airline does it doesnt make it a good practice. It screws over passengers at every airline when they time out for these reasons.
 
ilovelamp
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:45 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:40 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:

LAX-MEM is probably close to a 4 hour block flight. Under FAR 117, you only come up on 9 hour block rule if you start the day after midnight or you have a 4-5 leg day. This is not a flight that starts after midnight so this is a case of Delta over-scheduling this crew if what you say is true about the 9 hour block limit.


This crew had a 9 hour block limit. They flew two legs which were both scheduled above 4 hours. This is very common scheduling practice. 99% of the time there are no issues. Unfortunately, this time it caused an issue.

I suggest you brush up on 117. Any pilot who reports 0500-1959 can be scheduled up to 9 hours of block. See FAR 117 Table A.

I won’t divulge how much time they had left under this limit. Suffice it to say they didn’t have enough to get to MEM.


Table A is flying time. Table B is duty time. I suggest you brush up on your FAR 117 legalities.

If an airline is scheduling pilots close to 9 hours flying time then yes it is over-scheduling. Just because every airline does it doesnt make it a good practice. It screws over passengers at every airline when they time out for these reasons.


Table A applied here. Table B did not so brush up on your reading comprehension.

As stated before, many crews are scheduled with buffers to maximize efficiency. Airlines schedule based on statistical probabilities from their mountain of historical data. Once in a blue moon this “screws” passengers. It’s the cost of doing business on these very rare circumstances.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3364
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:43 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:

LAX-MEM is probably close to a 4 hour block flight. Under FAR 117, you only come up on 9 hour block rule if you start the day after midnight or you have a 4-5 leg day. This is not a flight that starts after midnight so this is a case of Delta over-scheduling this crew if what you say is true about the 9 hour block limit.


This crew had a 9 hour block limit. They flew two legs which were both scheduled above 4 hours. This is very common scheduling practice. 99% of the time there are no issues. Unfortunately, this time it caused an issue.

I suggest you brush up on 117. Any pilot who reports 0500-1959 can be scheduled up to 9 hours of block. See FAR 117 Table A.

I won’t divulge how much time they had left under this limit. Suffice it to say they didn’t have enough to get to MEM.


Table A is flying time. Table B is duty time. I suggest you brush up on your FAR 117 legalities.

If an airline is scheduling pilots close to 9 hours flying time then yes it is over-scheduling. Just because every airline does it doesnt make it a good practice. It screws over passengers at every airline when they time out for these reasons.


What would you suggest, the carrier schedule crews for 6 hours so there’s always a three hour cushion for weather?

GF
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
Posts: 422
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:09 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:56 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:

This crew had a 9 hour block limit. They flew two legs which were both scheduled above 4 hours. This is very common scheduling practice. 99% of the time there are no issues. Unfortunately, this time it caused an issue.

I suggest you brush up on 117. Any pilot who reports 0500-1959 can be scheduled up to 9 hours of block. See FAR 117 Table A.

I won’t divulge how much time they had left under this limit. Suffice it to say they didn’t have enough to get to MEM.


Table A is flying time. Table B is duty time. I suggest you brush up on your FAR 117 legalities.

If an airline is scheduling pilots close to 9 hours flying time then yes it is over-scheduling. Just because every airline does it doesnt make it a good practice. It screws over passengers at every airline when they time out for these reasons.


Table A applied here. Table B did not so brush up on your reading comprehension.

As stated before, many crews are scheduled with buffers to maximize efficiency. Airlines schedule based on statistical probabilities from their mountain of historical data. Once in a blue moon this “screws” passengers. It’s the cost of doing business on these very rare circumstances.


A schedule that is based on everything running perfectly is a bad plan. LIT-MEM is maybe 50-60 minutes of flying time taxi included. If crews are that tightly scheduled that a simple diversion recovery like that is impossible then the airline is scheduling too much flying in one day.

DL isnt by far the only one that does this. I don't mean to single them out as every carrier strands people in places they don't want to be overnight because of the practice of trying to maximize labor efficiency over customer service.
Last edited by MSJYOP28Apilot on Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ilovelamp
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:45 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:01 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:

Table A is flying time. Table B is duty time. I suggest you brush up on your FAR 117 legalities.

If an airline is scheduling pilots close to 9 hours flying time then yes it is over-scheduling. Just because every airline does it doesnt make it a good practice. It screws over passengers at every airline when they time out for these reasons.


Table A applied here. Table B did not so brush up on your reading comprehension.

As stated before, many crews are scheduled with buffers to maximize efficiency. Airlines schedule based on statistical probabilities from their mountain of historical data. Once in a blue moon this “screws” passengers. It’s the cost of doing business on these very rare circumstances.


A schedule that is based on everything running perfectly is a bad plan. LIT-MEM is maybe 50-60 minutes of flying time taxi included. If crews are that tightly scheduled that a simple diversion recovery like that is impossible then the airline is scheduling too much flying in one day.

DL is by far the only one that does this. I don't mean to single them out as every carrier strands people in places they don't want to be overnight because of the practice of trying to maximize labor efficiency over customer service.


Based on my experience talking to friends and seeing their schedules at AA, SWA, UAL, and many regionals, I can promise you Delta isn’t the only one scheduling like this.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
Posts: 422
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:09 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:04 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:

This crew had a 9 hour block limit. They flew two legs which were both scheduled above 4 hours. This is very common scheduling practice. 99% of the time there are no issues. Unfortunately, this time it caused an issue.

I suggest you brush up on 117. Any pilot who reports 0500-1959 can be scheduled up to 9 hours of block. See FAR 117 Table A.

I won’t divulge how much time they had left under this limit. Suffice it to say they didn’t have enough to get to MEM.


Table A is flying time. Table B is duty time. I suggest you brush up on your FAR 117 legalities.

If an airline is scheduling pilots close to 9 hours flying time then yes it is over-scheduling. Just because every airline does it doesnt make it a good practice. It screws over passengers at every airline when they time out for these reasons.


What would you suggest, the carrier schedule crews for 6 hours so there’s always a three hour cushion for weather?

GF


I would say 6-7 hours would be best for customer service and operational flexibility. Basically with how it is now, there is no room for error in many cases. When a hub airport goes down the drain because of weather, passengers get stranded in outstations all the time because the crew can't make the 30 minute flight back to LGA/ATL/DFW/IAH/ORD/you name it hub.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
Posts: 422
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:09 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:06 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:

Table A applied here. Table B did not so brush up on your reading comprehension.

As stated before, many crews are scheduled with buffers to maximize efficiency. Airlines schedule based on statistical probabilities from their mountain of historical data. Once in a blue moon this “screws” passengers. It’s the cost of doing business on these very rare circumstances.


A schedule that is based on everything running perfectly is a bad plan. LIT-MEM is maybe 50-60 minutes of flying time taxi included. If crews are that tightly scheduled that a simple diversion recovery like that is impossible then the airline is scheduling too much flying in one day.

DL is by far the only one that does this. I don't mean to single them out as every carrier strands people in places they don't want to be overnight because of the practice of trying to maximize labor efficiency over customer service.


Based on my experience talking to friends and seeing their schedules at AA, SWA, UAL, and many regionals, I can promise you Delta isn’t the only one scheduling like this.


Thanks for the spell check. I meant DL isnt the only one.
 
ilovelamp
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:45 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:06 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:

Table A is flying time. Table B is duty time. I suggest you brush up on your FAR 117 legalities.

If an airline is scheduling pilots close to 9 hours flying time then yes it is over-scheduling. Just because every airline does it doesnt make it a good practice. It screws over passengers at every airline when they time out for these reasons.


What would you suggest, the carrier schedule crews for 6 hours so there’s always a three hour cushion for weather?

GF


I would say 6-7 hours would be best for customer service and operational flexibility. Basically with how it is now, there is no room for error in many cases. When a hub airport goes down the drain because of weather, passengers get stranded in outstations all the time because the crew can't make the 30 minute flight back to LGA/ATL/DFW/IAH/ORD/you name it hub.


This is a de facto demand for higher ticket prices.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3364
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:50 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:

Table A is flying time. Table B is duty time. I suggest you brush up on your FAR 117 legalities.

If an airline is scheduling pilots close to 9 hours flying time then yes it is over-scheduling. Just because every airline does it doesnt make it a good practice. It screws over passengers at every airline when they time out for these reasons.


What would you suggest, the carrier schedule crews for 6 hours so there’s always a three hour cushion for weather?

GF


I would say 6-7 hours would be best for customer service and operational flexibility. Basically with how it is now, there is no room for error in many cases. When a hub airport goes down the drain because of weather, passengers get stranded in outstations all the time because the crew can't make the 30 minute flight back to LGA/ATL/DFW/IAH/ORD/you name it hub.


Willing to pay for that service because you’re probably adding 15-20% to the pilot crew costs plus something to the F/A costs. Probably 4-6% to fares.
 
User avatar
DL747400
Posts: 657
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:46 am

777Mech wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
SAAFNAV wrote:
Why the deep emotional involvement if you weren't on the flight.

Stuff happens, things must go on. Kinda sad that you have to monitor all this, and have to create threads about delayed flights.


A relative will be on that flight Friday and I was looking at the on time stats. If Delta wants to market themselves as a premium airline then they need to take care of their customers. If they have enough extra money to provide a "free" charter to cover AA's canceled flight then they should have enough money to put their passengers in hotels when a late night 9+ hour delay occurs.


Sorry to rain on your parade, but the pax were provided accommodations. Even the nonrevs were taken care of.


HaHa! Thanks for digging up that info! That just peed all over the OP's agenda-based comments! I know the DL-haters are just gonna be beside themselves to learn that DL actually did take care of their customers in this case.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
TTailedTiger
Topic Author
Posts: 1253
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta 1316 Diverted and Delayed

Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:11 am

DL747400 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

A relative will be on that flight Friday and I was looking at the on time stats. If Delta wants to market themselves as a premium airline then they need to take care of their customers. If they have enough extra money to provide a "free" charter to cover AA's canceled flight then they should have enough money to put their passengers in hotels when a late night 9+ hour delay occurs.


Sorry to rain on your parade, but the pax were provided accommodations. Even the nonrevs were taken care of.


HaHa! Thanks for digging up that info! That just peed all over the OP's agenda-based comments! I know the DL-haters are just gonna be beside themselves to learn that DL actually did take care of their customers in this case.


No proof has been given. It's anonymous message board. He can say anything he wants. It's of no substance without any proof. Even as a medallion Delta has never offered me a hotel when weather has caused me to miss a flight and force an overnight in ATL.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos