jsteeves3
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B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:27 pm

It appears that this plane is still in the air as of writing this... This plane has been trying to land 3 times now (flightaware.com) but still hasn't... scary!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:32 pm

Why is it “scary”; surely they have ample fuel, nearby alternates with decent weather. Typical Cape and Islands in summer—fog.

GF
 
N757ST
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:34 pm

The weather is at or below minimums. If they had the gas, which they obviously did, then there’s nothing scary about it. It appears to be diverting now. Oh well, weather and aviation don’t always mix.
 
jsteeves3
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:38 pm

B6 1752 BOS-ACK 1st missed approach as well. It's scary because of it not being able to land due to weather. I bet the passengers on the flight are shaking their heads because they couldn't land after 3 tries!
 
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longhauler
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:45 pm

jsteeves3 wrote:
B6 1752 BOS-ACK 1st missed approach as well. It's scary because of it not being able to land due to weather. I bet the passengers on the flight are shaking their heads because they couldn't land after 3 tries!


The weather was forecast to be marginal all day. Odds are the passengers were already advised about the weather before departure and the likelihood of weather caused issues. I wouild guess the crew are giving the passengers a blow by blow update of events.

An approach to a go-around is not as "scary" as some would think ... three times? It's a double E ticket! ;)
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jsteeves3
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:47 pm

I would assume these are go-around's...the ACK flight just went through a second time without landing...
 
Bricktop
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:50 pm

Metro NY just had some badass thunderstorms roll through (lost power twice), and they are headed towards the Cape and Islands. It will get worse before it gets better.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:54 pm

If bad weather is expected, they usually carry enough fuel to make a few attempts at an approach before they divert. Not really sure what the issue is.
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Dominion301
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:00 am

longhauler wrote:
jsteeves3 wrote:
B6 1752 BOS-ACK 1st missed approach as well. It's scary because of it not being able to land due to weather. I bet the passengers on the flight are shaking their heads because they couldn't land after 3 tries!


The weather was forecast to be marginal all day. Odds are the passengers were already advised about the weather before departure and the likelihood of weather caused issues. I wouild guess the crew are giving the passengers a blow by blow update of events.

An approach to a go-around is not as "scary" as some would think ... three times? It's a double E ticket! ;)


I was on a 7F flight to YFB that made 3 attempts to land before diverting to YVP. Two hours later the fog had cleared at YFB. Wasn’t a big deal.
 
alasizon
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:05 am

Why is there even a thread on this?

WX diversions and go-arounds happen every single day (probably at least 100 times per day). Nothing scary about a flight operating within the normal bounds, perhaps if one of the go-arounds was due to an aircraft or something on the runway, I could understand it being called scary but this is pretty normal.
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FlyHossD
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:24 am

alasizon wrote:
Why is there even a thread on this?

WX diversions and go-arounds happen every single day (probably at least 100 times per day). Nothing scary about a flight operating within the normal bounds, perhaps if one of the go-arounds was due to an aircraft or something on the runway, I could understand it being called scary but this is pretty normal.


Many years ago, I was riding on a CO DC-10 into LAX; we went around and a minute later, the crew announced that the Tower had sent them around due to another plane not clearing the runway in time. A young woman seated near me started screaming hysterically, "HOW COULD THEY NOT KNOW WE WERE COMING!?" over and over again.

I was able to get the attention of her husband or boyfriend and explain to him that it happens, that everything was OK and we'd be on the ground soon. She was still sobbing when we arrived at the gate about 15 minutes later.

IMHO, it would help if the industry did a better job of explaining just how safe operations are maintained. That is, it seems that the industry is afraid to mention the risks, so they explain very little instead.
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PartsGuy20
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:16 pm

Plenty of fog and weather around HYA for the past couple of days, and on ACK and MVY it's often even worse.

I'm curious though... I had always heard that pilots were trained to or required to divert after a second failed approach attempt. Is that actually the case, and if so, what allows this flight to make three approaches to MVY?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:32 pm

You can make as many approaches as fuel allows. It’s counterproductive often; can introduce some hazard of expectancy, but no FAR restriction. Many companies might have a restriction.

GF
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:33 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Why is there even a thread on this?

WX diversions and go-arounds happen every single day (probably at least 100 times per day). Nothing scary about a flight operating within the normal bounds, perhaps if one of the go-arounds was due to an aircraft or something on the runway, I could understand it being called scary but this is pretty normal.


Many years ago, I was riding on a CO DC-10 into LAX; we went around and a minute later, the crew announced that the Tower had sent them around due to another plane not clearing the runway in time. A young woman seated near me started screaming hysterically, "HOW COULD THEY NOT KNOW WE WERE COMING!?" over and over again.

I was able to get the attention of her husband or boyfriend and explain to him that it happens, that everything was OK and we'd be on the ground soon. She was still sobbing when we arrived at the gate about 15 minutes later.

IMHO, it would help if the industry did a better job of explaining just how safe operations are maintained. That is, it seems that the industry is afraid to mention the risks, so they explain very little instead.


That and fewer passengers thinking riding in the back makes them experts on what happens in the front end.
 
7673mech
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:59 pm

it flew 30 minutes longer then normal - and made a full stop landing.
seems everything worked out.
 
ScottB
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:12 pm

jsteeves3 wrote:
B6 1752 BOS-ACK 1st missed approach as well. It's scary because of it not being able to land due to weather. I bet the passengers on the flight are shaking their heads because they couldn't land after 3 tries!


Not really scary at all. It's not as if there aren't 3 options to divert (HYA, PVD, BOS) within 15 minutes' flying time, and no doubt the marginal visibility at ACK/MVY was known at the time the flight was dispatched. It's likely they carried extra fuel and were prepared to divert (presumably return to BOS) in case the weather didn't cooperate.
 
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spinkid
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:08 pm

ScottB wrote:
jsteeves3 wrote:
B6 1752 BOS-ACK 1st missed approach as well. It's scary because of it not being able to land due to weather. I bet the passengers on the flight are shaking their heads because they couldn't land after 3 tries!


Not really scary at all. It's not as if there aren't 3 options to divert (HYA, PVD, BOS) within 15 minutes' flying time, and no doubt the marginal visibility at ACK/MVY was known at the time the flight was dispatched. It's likely they carried extra fuel and were prepared to divert (presumably return to BOS) in case the weather didn't cooperate.


Exactly! Plenty of places to divert to, and kudos to B6 crew for making the attempts. ACK/MVY aren't like BOS/PVD where you can just take a bus over the destination. Since they are islands, well, you get the picture
 
CaptCoolHand
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:59 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why is it “scary”; surely they have ample fuel, nearby alternates with decent weather. Typical Cape and Islands in summer—fog.

GF


Exactly.

Not only is this not scary. It’s totally normal operations. This is what you pay for when you buy an airline ticket. Professionals doing what they do and doing it well.
 
aviatorcraig
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:24 pm

Three approaches and go-arounds? I'd pay extra for that! :lol:
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TUSPHX
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:37 pm

aviatorcraig wrote:
Three approaches and go-arounds? I'd pay extra for that! :lol:

Especially if they were like one I had in LHR where we were only a few feet above the ground and also in a A380. Boy did that cabin get silent.
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catiii
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:29 pm

jsteeves3 wrote:
It appears that this plane is still in the air as of writing this... This plane has been trying to land 3 times now (flightaware.com) but still hasn't... scary!


Scary if you're completely uninformed and have no clue generally about airline operations and specifically to MVY in the summer.

Man I wish this site had a paywall again. The barrier to entry made the quality of posts so much better.
 
catiii
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:30 pm

jsteeves3 wrote:
B6 1752 BOS-ACK 1st missed approach as well. It's scary because of it not being able to land due to weather. I bet the passengers on the flight are shaking their heads because they couldn't land after 3 tries!


I bet they weren't.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:36 pm

CaptCoolHand wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why is it “scary”; surely they have ample fuel, nearby alternates with decent weather. Typical Cape and Islands in summer—fog.

GF


Exactly.

Not only is this not scary. It’s totally normal operations. This is what you pay for when you buy an airline ticket. Professionals doing what they do and doing it well.


I’m struggling to come up with a reason that multiple, correctly-executed go arounds are unsafe if the issue is solely visibility (not wind shear or thunderstorms) and the aircraft has sufficient fuel. You worry a bit about get-there-itis, but that’s what decision height and following the rules are for.
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alasizon
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:13 am

PartsGuy20 wrote:
I'm curious though... I had always heard that pilots were trained to or required to divert after a second failed approach attempt. Is that actually the case, and if so, what allows this flight to make three approaches to MVY?

Depends on the airline. Some limit it to two, some to three, others limit it to until you reach your required fuel to get to your alternate.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
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longhauler
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:12 pm

I have seen things similar to this on many occasions.

JFK-MVY is not that long a flight. They were probably holding JFK as an alternate and likely the passengers were told that the weather was marginal and they may end up back where they started. Usually they are given the option of trying another day with no penalty. Some do, some don't.

So they did multiple approaches. I would bet a 60 of Johnnie Walker Blue that it wasn't even remotely unsafe, just inconvenient as the weather often causes.

I can also bet ... what wasn't happening is multiple desparate attempts to get into a destination ... or everyone dies ... like the OP was alluding. As noted above. The plan would have been to keep trying until either fuel requires they return to JFK or weather trending would indicate they are wasting everyone's time.

I did that once years ago in a 767-300. We flew YYZ-LGA, held for two hours, shot two approaches, then returned to YYZ. Everyone knew what the odds were before we left YYZ, some went home or to a hotel, and about 150 came with us. Every 15 minutes in the hold and after each approach we talked to the folks. A couple passengers even said it was more fun than sitting in a hotel waiting for the weather to clear.

It happens!
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nkops
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:39 pm

As someone who worked in ACK and MVY years ago, go arounds were the norm on some days there.. I remember several days where the fog didn't even burn off. Nothing scary about it, just normal procedures.
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11C
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:27 pm

jsteeves3 wrote:
B6 1752 BOS-ACK 1st missed approach as well. It's scary because of it not being able to land due to weather. I bet the passengers on the flight are shaking their heads because they couldn't land after 3 tries!


Passengers shaking their heads? I rode in an RJ to LGA on ACA in the early 2000’s, and at one point, as we flew up the Hudson in the arrival queue for runway 22, a passenger rang her flight attendant call button. When the flight attendant came to see what the problem was, the woman explained that the pilots had missed the airport. She could see it out the right window, and the pilots had missed it. The disconnect between what is happening, and what some passengers are perceiving, is just too large to bridge sometimes.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: B6 1438 JFK-MVY

Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:32 pm

EWR had plenty of go arounds due to the wind also. All the NYC airports had delays.
EWR had a ground stop at one point. The whole area was just bad yesterday for wind.

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