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YIMBY
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:05 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
So looks like there is a ban on flying over Iran for US airlines - hence UA’s cancellation
The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration on Thursday issued an emergency order prohibiting U.S. operators from flying in an overwater area of Tehran-controlled airspace over the Strait of Hormuz and Gulf of Oman due to heightened tensions


Over which countries or their waters are they allowed to fly?

Iran was considered the safest path until recently, at least by European carriers. Who wants to fly over Yemen, Syria or Iraq? What about Saudi-Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman, UAE, even Turkey, or international waters - who know whose vessels patrol there? While their governments may not authorize any shooting, some less disciplined army or paramilitary troops may err on the target or go rogue, and there are lots of uncontrolled troops up to terrorist organizations. A couple of missile attacks against bases or ships makes their staff very nervous. Civil airlines have been shot down by local decisions even in Europe.

Just imagine you are hit by lightning that breaks the radio and transponder.
 
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SQ22
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:13 am

May I just remind you to keep politics out of this thread, there is a thread about it in Non-Aviation in order to discuss the recent events which can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1424647

This thread is about UA suspending its BOM service.
 
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zeke
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:47 am

The reason for this is a UAV was shot down over the gulf of Oman in the 20th. The UAV was at high altitude, and the size of an airliner (Global Hawk). That and two ships attacked by missiles.

FAA issued an emergency order not to fly through Iran or the Gulf of Oman.

Pakistan is only allowing limited flights, I see no reason why United could not overfly Dubai and transit Pakistan on the open airway.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
rjmf22
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:56 am

zeke wrote:
The reason for this is a UAV was shot down over the gulf of Oman in the 20th. The UAV was at high altitude, and the size of an airliner (Global Hawk). That and two ships attacked by missiles.

FAA issued an emergency order not to fly through Iran or the Gulf of Oman.

Pakistan is only allowing limited flights, I see no reason why United could not overfly Dubai and transit Pakistan on the open airway.


I'm imagining that United just wants to avoid that area as a whole.
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Oykie
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:47 am

zeke wrote:
The reason for this is a UAV was shot down over the gulf of Oman in the 20th. The UAV was at high altitude, and the size of an airliner (Global Hawk). That and two ships attacked by missiles.

FAA issued an emergency order not to fly through Iran or the Gulf of Oman.

Pakistan is only allowing limited flights, I see no reason why United could not overfly Dubai and transit Pakistan on the open airway.


Zeke, does the FAA emergency order encourage European and Asian airlines to avoid Iran and the Gulf of Oman? I will fly to Singapore this summer, and I see that historically the flight I am scheduled to fly is over Iran and exactly where the drone was shot down. Do you think airlines will avoid this corridor now?
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jayunited
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:00 pm

Planes4you wrote:
I agree with judge1310 but I have to ask would it be possible for BOM-NRT-EWR?


If UA wanted to operate a one stop flight they most certainly could do that but are additional cost associated with operating a one stop flight. Look at UA's over all international long haul network and show me where you see any one stop flights. There is a reason airlines are moving more and more towards nonstop flights cost is a huge factor and many people prefer nonstop over one stop.

People seem to forget just a few months ago for 4-5 straight weeks UA operated both DEL-EWR and BOM-EWR with a tech stop in Germany the cost of that tech stop was huge. To get around the tech stop for BOM-EWR UA began flying over Iran. Now with Pakistan airspace still closed and Iranian airspace no longer available UA the only choice is to suspend service. The reason EWR-DEL-EWR was suspended was because the tech stop meant the route was no longer profitable the same applies to EWR-BOM-EWR.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:10 pm

What routes will UA deploy the spare frames on?
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zeke
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:12 pm

Oykie wrote:
does the FAA emergency order encourage European and Asian airlines to avoid Iran and the Gulf of Oman?


No

Oykie wrote:
Do you think airlines will avoid this corridor now?


Each airline will make their own assessment, every country has different diplomatic relationships.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
DTWLAX
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:21 pm

Are any of the European carriers flying into BOM avoiding Iranian airspace? I checked AF and the flight is still cutting through the middle of Iran. I am scheduled to fly BOM-CDG on the 25th next week and am wondering if the flight will take a detour
 
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:33 pm

zeke wrote:
The reason for this is a UAV was shot down over the gulf of Oman in the 20th. The UAV was at high altitude, and the size of an airliner (Global Hawk). That and two ships attacked by missiles.

FAA issued an emergency order not to fly through Iran or the Gulf of Oman.

Pakistan is only allowing limited flights, I see no reason why United could not overfly Dubai and transit Pakistan on the open airway.


Lets be honest here the easiest way to get to India from the US is over Pakistan. However ever since Pakistan closed most of its airspace to flight to/from India there has been no easy way for UA to operate its flights to and from India. UA has taken the route you suggest over Dubai however we still are not able to access Pakistani airspace. People seem to forget without Pakistani airspace UA's options were fly over Iran or fly over Iraq just to get to India from the US. The Iran option save fuel the 77W with a full load of 350 passenger and over 500 bags and about 4,000 pounds of cargo only needs about 307,000 pounds of fuel, granted when we were flying over Pakistan we only needed around 295,000-298,000 pounds of fuel. When you shift the flight to Iraqi airspace (no other way to overfly Dubai) the fuel load jumps to at least 311,000 pounds of jet fuel. Then we have to take into account the conditions in EWR and what it would take to get that 77W into the air. I can tell you this when you shift that route over Iraqi airspace and overfly Dubai the total passengers we could have on that 77W out of EWR was limited to just 300 total passengers with no cargo and that was calculating dry runway conditions with a headwind. If you are taking off with a 2 or 3 mph tail wind or wet runway conditions you are then looking at a sever weight restriction where we could be bumping 75 or more passengers off the flight and leaving over 200 bags behind out of EWR. With the suspension of UA's service to DEL UA shifted some of that traffic to BOM and the rest was shifted to our Star Alliance partners throughout Europe. But what that means is EWR-BOM would go out full almost every night the only reason this route survive was because we starting overflying Iran.
This isn't some knee jerk reaction, UA has been operating under these conditions since late February and we already know if the return flight could not fly over Iran then flight crew wasn't legal to even fly the route which is way we had to build tech stops first in Bangor Maine then Germany because any delay of 45 minutes or more to the runway would mean the crew wasn't legal to fly to Bangor. If UA can't use Iranian airspace then the crew has already exceed CCO for a nonstop flight before they even take off from BOM. The 77W can fly BOM-EWR nonstop but do to FAA regulations the crew isn't.
 
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zeke
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:35 pm

jayunited wrote:
If UA wanted to operate a one stop flight they most certainly could do that but are additional cost associated with operating a one stop flight. Look at UA's over all international long haul network and show me where you see any one stop flights. There is a reason airlines are moving more and more towards nonstop flights cost is a huge factor and many people prefer nonstop over one stop.

People seem to forget just a few months ago for 4-5 straight weeks UA operated both DEL-EWR and BOM-EWR with a tech stop in Germany the cost of that tech stop was huge. To get around the tech stop for BOM-EWR UA began flying over Iran. Now with Pakistan airspace still closed and Iranian airspace no longer available UA the only choice is to suspend service. The reason EWR-DEL-EWR was suspended was because the tech stop meant the route was no longer profitable the same applies to EWR-BOM-EWR.


Can you think why they could not fly this sort of route, 8% greater than great circle ?

Over France, Italy, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Pakistan to India avoiding Iranian airspace.

Image
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
diesel33
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:04 pm

zeke wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Can you think why they could not fly this sort of route, 8% greater than great circle ?

Over France, Italy, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Pakistan to India avoiding Iranian airspace.


OneSexyL1011 wrote:
nycilley02 wrote:
Could they sub in an alternate type (788?) that might have the legs to make the flight without overflying Iran or Pakistan? I realize that it would mean reduced capacity, but may be preferable to canceling the route altogether.

Looking at the Great Circle routing, EWR-RUH-BOM (which overflies neither country) is only 400mi longer than EWR-BOM. Seems like they must have something with legs for that...

It's not an aircraft limitation. The 77W has amazing legs.

These are the limiting priorities at hand:

4. Crew legality due to flight duty FAR 117 limits

We as an airline have exhausted all options and when the time to throw the towel comes, we had to do it. I applaud all the pilots, flight attendants, dispatchers and NOC personnel involved in the process over the last few months.
 
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zeke
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:06 pm

jayunited wrote:
UA has taken the route you suggest over Dubai however we still are not able to access Pakistani airspace.


M504 through Pakistan is open to UA, however they can go straight from Oman to India without going through Pakistan.

Image

This is what is open per NOTAM

Westbound
Airway P518, from waypoint KABIM on the Pakistan/India border in the south, to either KEBUD or ASVIB on the the Pakistan/Iran border in the north.

Eastbound
Choice of two routes from waypoint ALPOR on the Oman/Pakistan border in the west, to waypoint TELEM on the Pakistan/India border in the east.

jayunited wrote:
The 77W can fly BOM-EWR nonstop but do to FAA regulations the crew isn't.


What FAA regulation is that ? I ran the 77W over the route I worked out and it was 14:50 eastbound and 15:30 westbound, you can go up to 18 hours under FAA rules.
Last edited by zeke on Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:08 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
If the situation with Iran continues maybe the US and others should pressure Pakistan to open up parts of its airspace to commercial flights.
The route is clearly doable without overflying Iran at all.

Image
http://weekendblitz.0g2y9hcyenagyt19l.m ... WR-BOM.jpg


And why should Pakistan allow flights to transit to India?
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MD80Ttail
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:10 pm

aryonoco wrote:
WWads wrote:
maxamuus wrote:
I believe it’s prudent. The last thing we need is a repeat of MH17.


Especially with a US airline. It would mean war, and a severe one at that.


Well the last time tensions were this high, ironically, it was the US that ended up shooting down an Iranian passenger aircraft.


It was not as simple and clear cut as your statement makes it sound. Many mitigating circumstances. The shoot down wasn’t intentional. Further, Iran's actions directly led to the incident. The responsibility for the downing of the plane rests with Iran.
 
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zeke
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:32 pm

Looks like they are going to ferry N2644U from BOM to HNL, and cancelled the BOM to EWR flight.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:46 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
If the situation with Iran continues maybe the US and others should pressure Pakistan to open up parts of its airspace to commercial flights.
The route is clearly doable without overflying Iran at all.

Image
http://weekendblitz.0g2y9hcyenagyt19l.m ... WR-BOM.jpg


The U.S. isn't going to pressure Pakistan to open up it's airspace purely for airline profitability. While they are technically our "ally", they are really rather hostile. Not to mention India and Pakistan have been a defacto state of war for decades.
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airzim
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:47 pm

zeke wrote:
jayunited wrote:
If UA wanted to operate a one stop flight they most certainly could do that but are additional cost associated with operating a one stop flight. Look at UA's over all international long haul network and show me where you see any one stop flights. There is a reason airlines are moving more and more towards nonstop flights cost is a huge factor and many people prefer nonstop over one stop.

People seem to forget just a few months ago for 4-5 straight weeks UA operated both DEL-EWR and BOM-EWR with a tech stop in Germany the cost of that tech stop was huge. To get around the tech stop for BOM-EWR UA began flying over Iran. Now with Pakistan airspace still closed and Iranian airspace no longer available UA the only choice is to suspend service. The reason EWR-DEL-EWR was suspended was because the tech stop meant the route was no longer profitable the same applies to EWR-BOM-EWR.


Can you think why they could not fly this sort of route, 8% greater than great circle ?

Over France, Italy, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Pakistan to India avoiding Iranian airspace.

Image


You do realize your "Over France, Italy, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Pakistan to India avoiding Iranian airspace." flies over the Gulf of Oman which you earlier pointed out was off limits by the FAA.
 
dmstorm22
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:58 pm

N649DL wrote:
Disclaimer: I already pointed out that I don't work in the industry so if I'm wrong, whatever. However, what I can also tell you about this route:

1. EWR-BOM was actually one of the earlier 773ER route implementations for the new hard product. IIRC, there weren't many since it was a slow roll out and few planes but EWR-BOM made the cut.



1. It was the third 77W route from EWR iirc (I think NRT and TLV were first)


N649DL wrote:
2. Yes, there are a lot of rich Indian people in NJ but knowing my Brother-In-Law and my Sister, they buy a ticket based on cost of ticket to India. Not to say the whole Indian population in NJ is like this but typically if it isn't the cheapest option, they won't fly it. Giant Indian population or not, US carriers flying to India over the last decade have been highly problematic and have been mostly dropped. And I typically b*tch the two of them out because they always fly ME3 to get there.


2. I am also Indian. I personally have paid more to fly non-stop to Mumbai. I know many who have as well. There is a large enough diaspora that UA/CO has been able to keep this flying at a time no other American carrier could manage a flight to India because they can command a premium and people (including Indian VFR even) will pay it


N649DL wrote:
3. The 773ER from the 772ER was an influx in seat configuration compared to the former. Perhaps the J-Cabin space was ready for the route and coach wasn't based on capacity (or vise-versa).


3. Not sure what you're after here. Have you seen the LF on the route? Anyway, the 77W is also a more efficient plane at that stage length


N649DL wrote:
4. So, I've heard this "Mystery" and/or "Fake News" corporate contract thing before on other routes but who exactly? Deloitte? One or more of the "Big 4" firms?" with Data Warehouses in India? I would just love to know because I've seen this theory float around before with zero evidence.


4. This one baffles me. I've personally negotiated corporate contracts with airlines, these are not 'fake news'. Sorry if you can't realize that there might be a lot of corporations sending passengers from NY to the largest financial and business hub in India. Ever large bank that has giant offices up and down Manhattan and Hoboken now have middle and back offices in India, many in Mumbai or Navi Mumbai. Then you lay on top the Big-4, or even a Tata or Infosys that have offices in NY/NJ.



N649DL wrote:
5. Fly Over Pakistani Airspace? Seriously? I actually avoided going to India because I didn't want to fly over that country since Indian's and Pakistani's tend to hate each other.


5. Good for you. UA (and guess what many other airlines) have flown over Pakistani airspace for decades into India


N649DL wrote:
6. There is a TON of competition flying to India out EWR and JFK. High Indian population doesn't matter, just ask how Alitalia does with NJ having a high Italian Population. Or even how SAS flies to all 3 Scandinavian countries from EWR right now (and on and off since the Early 1990s) with a relatively low Scandinavian population in NJ (or diluted since there are so many people there.) Population density doesn't really matter, especially on a ULH route. The only big exception relating to NJ (I grew up there) would be TAP or LOT.


6. Well, apparently it does, because outside of the Bay Area, NY is the only region that has supported non-stop travel to India, and not just these UA flights, but AI flights to DEL/BOM and its good enough that Delta is finally wading back into the mix.


Look we can argue back and forth, but sumply put, this route has been viable for a long time. It consistently is ~200-400 more than 1-stop options and has sold enough in J and Y that UA has flown it, upgauged it, and never had a service interruption aside from these geopolitical issues that have made it un-viable. AI may be fine with the economics of having to do a tech stop in Vienna each day. UA is not.
Last edited by dmstorm22 on Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:59 pm

Great Circle to ADD, then onto BOM. Only 9370 miles ;)
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:07 pm

N649DL wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:
N649DL wrote:


2. Yes, there are a lot of rich Indian people in NJ but knowing my Brother-In-Law and my Sister, they buy a ticket based on cost of ticket to India. Not to say the whole Indian population in NJ is like this but typically if it isn't the cheapest option, they won't fly it. Giant Indian population or not, US carriers flying to India over the last decade have been highly problematic and have been mostly dropped. And I typically b*tch the two of them out because they always fly ME3 to get there.

.


Come on, people need to stop using examples of their relatives. The Indian diaspora is huge and diverse. Plus there is a huge difference between recent immigrants and those who have been here since the 60's (the first group the lived the American dream and is now retiring). Someone who picks by price, is clearly NOT FF status driven. So many Indian-American are professionals and travel a ton. Why do you think they are different then their non Indian-American counterparts? They aren't. So while there definitely are Indians in America that don't care about FF programs, don't care about a stop (or like a stop) don't view different airlines as having different status, etc. There is also the flip side - meaning people who do. My mom will always pick a nonstop over a one stop. She despises connecting in Europe (she hates connecting in the ME even more). The best thing that ever happened in her mind was NYC-BOM nonstop. She will even fly AI. That said, my mom is from those early immigrants and wants to fly J at her age. It is hard to get J sales on UA's nonstop, and we are not paying $8k for a ticket. But when there are sales, we grab it (usually $3k for a one-stop Skyteam option or $4k for a nonstop - so even we pay more for the nonstop). She will also never fly airlines that she perceives as second tier (it is in her head no need to argue with her). Btw if AI hadn't shifted to nonstops with their DEL hub, I actually think they would be a nonentity in the India-US market. Ask yourself, why do people suffer through AI when there are so many choices - the number one reason is probably the flight is nonstop then the full they treat older Indians better and then finally they offer great connections at DEL.

As far as business travelers - finance is big between NYC & BOM. Plus UA benefits from US origin pax that tend to be able to fly J on such a long flight. My company will usually always let you pick the nonstop even if cheaper one stop options exist. That is how UA fills their huge J class on the 77W at crazy fares (and milage awards at saver are next to impossible to get).
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:50 pm

N649DL wrote:
DDR wrote:
I'm going out on limb here, but if this flight was highly profitable, I think UA would have come up with a way to make the flight work.


Ditto. It's a 777-300ER on the route. Can't it fly above or below Iranian airspace to get to India? I would think it has the range to do so.


You mean in space or through some kind of tunnel through the earth's crust?
 
Atlwarrior
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:31 pm

When was Delta India flight supposed to launch?
 
Sooner787
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:20 pm

I checked the EK routings for flights 221/ 222 DXB-DFW past 24 hours.
Appears EK221 left DXB yesterday, transited right over central Iran , but the return flight EK222
flew over Iraq and Kuwait, then over the gulf , giving the Iranian coast a wide berth ,
before descending into DXB.
 
zuckie13
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:32 pm

zeke wrote:
Looks like they are going to ferry N2644U from BOM to HNL, and cancelled the BOM to EWR flight.

Looks like its even bookable on their website.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:37 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
zeke wrote:
Looks like they are going to ferry N2644U from BOM to HNL, and cancelled the BOM to EWR flight.

Looks like its even bookable on their website.

So maybe not a ferry flight at all, but BOM-HNL-EWR?
 
zuckie13
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:38 pm

I only see BOM-HNL as anything scheduled right now.
 
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:58 pm

LH658 wrote:
Can they fly a polar route to BOM then go down through Pakistan, exit Pakistan where Indian flights are allowed then onto BOM. Or through enter Pakistan where Indian bound flights are allowed, into Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, and etc?

No because those routes are currently closed in 99 percent of Pakistan, and Afghanistan is closed to overfly traffic. .
 
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OneSexyL1011
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:01 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
If the situation with Iran continues maybe the US and others should pressure Pakistan to open up parts of its airspace to commercial flights.
The route is clearly doable without overflying Iran at all.

Image
http://weekendblitz.0g2y9hcyenagyt19l.m ... WR-BOM.jpg

Thats how we used to fly, however it isnt just as simple as "The US should pressure Pakistan" Pakistan doesn't care about United, especially a flight headed to India, Pakistan's enemy. This is a strong hold move in order to make it harder on the Indian government.
 
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OneSexyL1011
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:07 pm

zeke wrote:
jayunited wrote:
If UA wanted to operate a one stop flight they most certainly could do that but are additional cost associated with operating a one stop flight. Look at UA's over all international long haul network and show me where you see any one stop flights. There is a reason airlines are moving more and more towards nonstop flights cost is a huge factor and many people prefer nonstop over one stop.

People seem to forget just a few months ago for 4-5 straight weeks UA operated both DEL-EWR and BOM-EWR with a tech stop in Germany the cost of that tech stop was huge. To get around the tech stop for BOM-EWR UA began flying over Iran. Now with Pakistan airspace still closed and Iranian airspace no longer available UA the only choice is to suspend service. The reason EWR-DEL-EWR was suspended was because the tech stop meant the route was no longer profitable the same applies to EWR-BOM-EWR.


Can you think why they could not fly this sort of route, 8% greater than great circle ?

Over France, Italy, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Pakistan to India avoiding Iranian airspace.

Image

We have flown those routes within the last few months, however as of the last few days our internal security audit, with the cooperation of flights ops and flight planning chose its just best to avoid the area as a whole (Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman) given the recent developments. As the lone US passenger carrier out there, it isn't worth the risk.

Every single opportunity has been explored, and gone over, and debated, and reviewed internally. Nothing presented in this thread is anything that hasn't been looked at already.
Last edited by OneSexyL1011 on Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:12 pm

Recent Defense/White House announcements could be sufficient reasons for this.
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Revelation
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:09 pm

OneSexyL1011 wrote:
nycilley02 wrote:
Could they sub in an alternate type (788?) that might have the legs to make the flight without overflying Iran or Pakistan? I realize that it would mean reduced capacity, but may be preferable to canceling the route altogether.

Looking at the Great Circle routing, EWR-RUH-BOM (which overflies neither country) is only 400mi longer than EWR-BOM. Seems like they must have something with legs for that...

It's not an aircraft limitation. The 77W has amazing legs.
These are the limiting priorities at hand:
1. Safety
2. Safety
3. Safety
4. Crew legality due to flight duty FAR 117 limits
5. Economics

With tensions escalating exponentially between the US and Iran, it is wise to avoid the area all together. As the sole US passenger carrier in the region, it's prudent we prioritize was important first and foremost. That is safety for our passengers and our crews. We do not want to be involved in any incident which may start a global conflict.

We as an airline have exhausted all options and when the time to throw the towel comes, we had to do it. I applaud all the pilots, flight attendants, dispatchers and NOC personnel involved in the process over the last few months.

I'm glad they are being proactive rather than waiting till after another MH17 type event happens.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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spinotter
Posts: 793
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:17 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
aryonoco wrote:
WWads wrote:

Especially with a US airline. It would mean war, and a severe one at that.


Well the last time tensions were this high, ironically, it was the US that ended up shooting down an Iranian passenger aircraft.


It was not as simple and clear cut as your statement makes it sound. Many mitigating circumstances. The shoot down wasn’t intentional. Further, Iran's actions directly led to the incident. The responsibility for the downing of the plane rests with Iran.


Did that incident take place closer to Iran or closer to the USA? Your statement about its being Iran's fault is so disgustingly wrong. USA stay out of the Middle East, how about that? I don't see any Iranian ships off the coast of Norfolk.
 
LJ
Posts: 5333
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:06 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
Are any of the European carriers flying into BOM avoiding Iranian airspace? I checked AF and the flight is still cutting through the middle of Iran. I am scheduled to fly BOM-CDG on the 25th next week and am wondering if the flight will take a detour


All avoid Iranian airspace and the Gulf of Oman as well. At present both AF, BA and KL are heading towards Dubai on their way to India. Only QR and TK don't avoid Iranian airspace.
 
factsonly
Posts: 2959
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:24 pm

LJ wrote:

All avoid Iranian airspace and the Gulf of Oman as well. At present both AF, BA and KL are heading towards Dubai on their way to India. Only QR and TK don't avoid Iranian airspace.


This information is incorrect.

European carriers do operate over central Iran, well away from the Persian Gulf coast.

KLM BKK-AMS:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 6#20fa26e2

SWISS BKK-ZRH:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 1#20fa3cbd

LUFTHANSA BKK-FRA:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 3#20f8610b
 
Planes4you
Posts: 359
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:35 pm

Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:29 pm

What would happen if an airline flew over closed part of Pakistan?
 
catiii
Posts: 3584
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:16 pm

OneSexyL1011 wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:
I find it mind-numbing that so many folks on here seem to think that professional network planners haven't considered all possible avenues (running algorithms with data feed, as an example) to make a flight be viable.

It is what it is. I have been living and breathing this stuff for my entire career. There is a whole complex process of analysis that most average enthusiasts have no idea that goes on. That's why guys like me exist here hahaha

The amount of planning and procedures involved in this would blow the average Joe's mind. It's truly a fascinating career.


Couldn't agree more. Once I was in the office and working with those guys, seeing what goes into planning is truly amazing.
 
Thunderbolt500
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:01 pm

Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:29 pm

maxamuus wrote:
I believe it’s prudent. The last thing we need is a repeat of MH17.
if it
Would be a repeat of mh17 I would expect war breaking out at any moment
 
Judge1310
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:54 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
Heard unconfirmed sayings that UA48 was near where the drome was shot down at the time - if true this explains why UA suspends the route immediately with a 77W (N2644U) still sitting in BOM at this moment. The plane is planning a ferry to HNL tomorrow afternoon local time.

Michael


Not true. The flight plan filed went right over Iran and nowhere near the Strait of Hormuz where the aforementioned incident occurred...
 
hohd
Posts: 923
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:24 pm

AI is till flying BOM-EWR non stop. May be it should capitalize on this and add more flights especially the cancelled BOM-JFK flights. UA can fly EWR-BOM non stop (I flew it very recently), but looking at the map above, there is a western corridor in Pak which is open and UA can use via Pak and Afghanistan and AI is using it, however they fly via Iran. Don't know if it is longer than AI route via Iran.
 
Judge1310
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:31 pm

The India flight suspension is now extended through 1st September unless conditions change per company communication...
 
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zeke
Posts: 15102
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:05 pm

airzim wrote:
You do realize your "Over France, Italy, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Pakistan to India avoiding Iranian airspace." flies over the Gulf of Oman which you earlier pointed out was off limits by the FAA.


That’s only half true, the FAA order says the Gulf of Oman AND within Iran Airspace, ie the northern side.

The route I suggested is on the southern side through UAE and Oman Airspace.

I have been over that area lots, never once been in Iranian Airspace going east west.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 24608
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Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:10 pm

United statement:

India service suspended until 9/1
Given current events in the Middle East and the continued closure of Pakistani airspace, we have decided to suspend our service between EWR and BOM (Mumbai) and DEL (New Delhi) in India, resuming on Sept. 1, 2019 (eastbound).
General managers of our India stations have remained in close touch with affected employees as we have made our recent service adjustments and are reaching out to update them on these latest changes. Our Flight Operations and Inflight Services Crew Scheduling teams are contacting all pilots and flight attendants who are scheduled to operate these flights.
We are also contacting our customers to update them and assist those who may need to make other travel arrangements, including rebooking on other airlines or offering full refunds. Additionally, we will remain in close contact with relevant government authorities throughout the suspension in order to provide our customers with the latest updates and most efficient travel experience under these circumstances.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15102
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:46 pm

OneSexyL1011 wrote:
We have flown those routes within the last few months, however as of the last few days our internal security audit, with the cooperation of flights ops and flight planning chose its just best to avoid the area as a whole (Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman) given the recent developments. As the lone US passenger carrier out there, it isn't worth the risk.

Every single opportunity has been explored, and gone over, and debated, and reviewed internally. Nothing presented in this thread is anything that hasn't been looked at already.


Now that seems reasonable unlike comments like the airspace is closed, crew limits, aircraft does not have the range.

The flight has no technical reason for not flying, they have made an internal decision not to.

LAXintl wrote:
continued closure of Pakistani airspace


Pakistan airspace is not closed UA has been flying through it, they are lying to customers here. Anyone looking at the UA flights on FR24 can see that.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
voxkel
Posts: 164
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:57 pm

zeke wrote:
Pakistan airspace is not closed UA has been flying through it, they are lying to customers here. Anyone looking at the UA flights on FR24 can see that.

Only one route in the southwest is open for northwest bound flights. This is the only reason UA decided to remove the MUC fuel stop on BOM-EWR. As it was this route pushed the limits of the 77W. The closure of Iran is the nail in the coffin.

I'm interested if AI will open up bookings for the BOM-IAD leg of AI103 (DEL-BOM-IAD). I would imagine a couple *A could use the connection in IAD to replace their scheduled BOM-EWR-XXX on UA.
 
voxkel
Posts: 164
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:35 am

Also echoing some earlier posts, UA seems to know their stuff regarding route planning. Take a look at the flights they have started the past couple years, and AFAIK none of them were flops (many are very successful). I wouldn't question too much their intentions, especially in this case.

It boggles my mind that AI is still deciding to operate these DEL-VIE-ORD/JFK flights. Everyone on 101/127 is essentially a layover/connecting passenger, no one travels nonstop (or solely between DEL-VIE and VIE-ORD, for example), aka no true O/D traffic. I would imagine given a similar fare, most would flock to LH DEL-MUC-ORD or EK DEL-DXB-ORD and the likes over AI DEL-VIE-ORD. (The same is true for JFK.) It costs a lot to fuel two planes daily at an airport where the flights cannot board/disembark any passengers. UA in theory could have done the same but IMO did the logical decision to just suspend the route all together. Many people underestimate the technical expenses of a fuel stop, not to mention the lowered desirability due to the flight no longer being nonstop.

The logical decision for AI would be to route JFK/ORD through BOM. If you have to take a fuel stop, might as well do it at a place where you don't need to worry about 5th freedom rights and can can capitalize on O/D demand. Why AI does not allow bookings for BOM-IAD, I don't know. To be fair, this is the same airline that thought running LHR-EWR was a good idea lol.
 
LH658
Posts: 1148
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:39 am

It seems the airspace near Karachi towards India border is open as flights are flying right through it to India, Bangladesh, and etc.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1106
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:54 am

factsonly wrote:
LJ wrote:

All avoid Iranian airspace and the Gulf of Oman as well. At present both AF, BA and KL are heading towards Dubai on their way to India. Only QR and TK don't avoid Iranian airspace.


This information is incorrect.

European carriers do operate over central Iran, well away from the Persian Gulf coast.

KLM BKK-AMS:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 6#20fa26e2

SWISS BKK-ZRH:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 1#20fa3cbd

LUFTHANSA BKK-FRA:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 3#20f8610b

AF BOM-CDG has been flying over central Iran
https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/AFR217
 
User avatar
airzim
Posts: 1441
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:40 am

Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:19 am

zeke wrote:
airzim wrote:
You do realize your "Over France, Italy, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Pakistan to India avoiding Iranian airspace." flies over the Gulf of Oman which you earlier pointed out was off limits by the FAA.


That’s only half true, the FAA order says the Gulf of Oman AND within Iran Airspace, ie the northern side.

The route I suggested is on the southern side through UAE and Oman Airspace.

I have been over that area lots, never once been in Iranian Airspace going east west.


Which is exactly in the spot over the Gulf of Oman where the Iranians shot down the US drone; this time. These drones have nearly the same wing span as a 747, and fly at altitudes similar to commercial traffic. Who’s to say a 19 year old Iranian kid with his finger on the launch button is going to differentiate a drone with a 777-300.

I think it’s entirely reasonable for a US company, with consultation and considerations with relevant authorities to make the decision not to fly in this particular region at this time. I’m not really understanding all the pushback from you.

Maybe because it’s a US company, flying a US manufactured airplane, with US pilots, and US power plants.

Perhaps the CX A350s has missile counter measures like El Al and Air Force one. Lucky you
 
YYZflyboy
Posts: 85
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 9:00 pm

Re: UA suspends BOM service effective immediately

Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:35 am

If anything, SQ and CX are going to benefit from this issue of closure to Iranian airspace. No need to fly over Iran to get to Hong Kong or Singapore.

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