Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
SierraPacific wrote:I really doubt that it will get any tenser than this but if it does the ME3 will just have to route around the area. It is just part of the equation when doing business in that part of the world.
For example, look at how Qatar has to route their aircraft for political reasons.
acavpics wrote:As we all saw, a US drone was shot down over Iran earlier today.
LTCM wrote:acavpics wrote:As we all saw, a US drone was shot down over Iran earlier today.
No such event occurred.
They shot down a drone in international airspace. It wasn't over Iran.
sonicruiser wrote:I think Qatar may actually get even with the UAE because Iran has supported Qatar in the blockade so it is unlikely Iran would ban QR aircraft and may actually give them a special exemption knowing how critical it is for them. However Iran considers the UAE an enemy and the drone that was shot down may actually have been from a base in the UAE. It would not surprise me if it at some point Iran threatens to or actually does ban all UAE aircraft as a retaliatory measure. If this happened Qatar will get even as the UAE will now also be blockaded and may actually be worse off than QR as an Iran blockade of the UAE will be much worse for them than a Saudi blockade is for Qatar. QR can bypass the blockade with Iran but the UAE will not have the same ability as many of their routes go through Iran and Saudi airspace is useless for that. There's no easy way around Iran and many more UAE flights (and almost all Gulf flights in general) go through Iranian airspace relative to Qatari flights through Saudi Arabia. Iranian airspace is too difficult to avoid, especially combined with the Pakistan airspace ban.
vhqpa wrote:According to FR24 EK is starting to avoid Iranian airspace. Currently two inbound flights are over Iran (EK164/DUB and EK6/LHR) everything else is going around using Iraq, Kuwait and Qatari airspace.
LTCM wrote:acavpics wrote:As we all saw, a US drone was shot down over Iran earlier today.
No such event occurred.
They shot down a drone in international airspace. It wasn't over Iran.
LTCM wrote:acavpics wrote:As we all saw, a US drone was shot down over Iran earlier today.
No such event occurred.
They shot down a drone in international airspace. It wasn't over Iran.
sonicruiser wrote:I think Qatar may actually get even with the UAE because Iran has supported Qatar in the blockade so it is unlikely Iran would ban QR aircraft and may actually give them a special exemption knowing how critical it is for them.
sonicruiser wrote:I'm actually amazed that they were stupid enough to let the US use their base for drones flying over Iran
B777LRF wrote:
'International waters' my so and so!
aviationaware wrote:International waters are defined in relevant international treaties of which Iran is a signatory. So much for that.
opticalilyushin wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but the FAA restriction on not using Iranian airspace would only apply to US airlines and maybe flights to or from the US? Surely they'd have no say on what other airlines do when flying to other destinations?
Gemuser wrote:opticalilyushin wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but the FAA restriction on not using Iranian airspace would only apply to US airlines and maybe flights to or from the US? Surely they'd have no say on what other airlines do when flying to other destinations?
The FAA's restriction only applies to "N" registerd aircraft (ie on the Register of Civil Aircraft of the USA). Other countries can make their own restrictions on aircraft on their register.
Gemuser
Gemuser wrote:aviationaware wrote:International waters are defined in relevant international treaties of which Iran is a signatory. So much for that.
While true, the sitution in queston AFAIK falls outside those general treaties as the Strait in question is less than 24 nm wide because national sovergin terrority extends 12 nm from the high water mark, under those treaties. There are probably no clear cut answers in that part of the world.
Gemuser
djvalume wrote:Gemuser wrote:opticalilyushin wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but the FAA restriction on not using Iranian airspace would only apply to US airlines and maybe flights to or from the US? Surely they'd have no say on what other airlines do when flying to other destinations?
The FAA's restriction only applies to "N" registerd aircraft (ie on the Register of Civil Aircraft of the USA). Other countries can make their own restrictions on aircraft on their register.
Gemuser
Most ICAO countries follow FAA recommendation anyway (Aftermath of MH17 being an example)
B777LRF wrote:LTCM wrote:acavpics wrote:As we all saw, a US drone was shot down over Iran earlier today.
No such event occurred.
They shot down a drone in international airspace. It wasn't over Iran.
The whole claim of 'international airspace' is bogus; there's no such thing as 'international airspace' when you're just 15 miles offshore.
Gemuser wrote:aviationaware wrote:International waters are defined in relevant international treaties of which Iran is a signatory. So much for that.
While true, the sitution in queston AFAIK falls outside those general treaties as the Strait in question is less than 24 nm wide because national sovergin terrority extends 12 nm from the high water mark, under those treaties. There are probably no clear cut answers in that part of the world.
Gemuser
MIflyer12 wrote:B777LRF wrote:LTCM wrote:
No such event occurred.
They shot down a drone in international airspace. It wasn't over Iran.
The whole claim of 'international airspace' is bogus; there's no such thing as 'international airspace' when you're just 15 miles offshore.
Sure there is. Airspace follows the international treaties establishing Law of the Sea. https://www.britannica.com/topic/air-law
The 12 nautical miles is the maximum limit permitted by the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.
opticalilyushin wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but the FAA restriction on not using Iranian airspace would only apply to US airlines and maybe flights to or from the US? Surely they'd have no say on what other airlines do when flying to other destinations?
kq747 wrote:I honestly don't see Iran closing airspace to anyone... they make a ton of money from the overfly rights.
VSMUT wrote:kq747 wrote:I honestly don't see Iran closing airspace to anyone... they make a ton of money from the overfly rights.
It has been said a million times. Nobody makes a fortune on overflight fees, except maybe Russia. The fees are tiny.
Iran is one of the cheaper countries in the ME, and charge as little as 50 USD for an overflight.
kq747 wrote:VSMUT wrote:kq747 wrote:I honestly don't see Iran closing airspace to anyone... they make a ton of money from the overfly rights.
It has been said a million times. Nobody makes a fortune on overflight fees, except maybe Russia. The fees are tiny.
Iran is one of the cheaper countries in the ME, and charge as little as 50 USD for an overflight.
I thought Iran charged more than most countries? Or maybe that was just when Iraqi airspace was not being used? I've read varying numbers on this subject including almost $1M a day which might be a stretch but does not sound like small beer. Happy to be corrected on this.
VSMUT wrote:kq747 wrote:VSMUT wrote:
It has been said a million times. Nobody makes a fortune on overflight fees, except maybe Russia. The fees are tiny.
Iran is one of the cheaper countries in the ME, and charge as little as 50 USD for an overflight.
I thought Iran charged more than most countries? Or maybe that was just when Iraqi airspace was not being used? I've read varying numbers on this subject including almost $1M a day which might be a stretch but does not sound like small beer. Happy to be corrected on this.
The most I've ever seen for one of my flights anywhere was 238 USD (that was not Iran). Most are much less.
zkojq wrote:
Just a friendly reminder that the United States hasn't signed/ratified that treaty.
aviationaware wrote:zkojq wrote:
Just a friendly reminder that the United States hasn't signed/ratified that treaty.
Which is completely inconsequential for the matter at hand.
zkojq wrote:No it isn't. You can't object to a country supposedly violating a treaty that you didn't even sign.
zkojq wrote:aviationaware wrote:zkojq wrote:
Just a friendly reminder that the United States hasn't signed/ratified that treaty.
Which is completely inconsequential for the matter at hand.
No it isn't. You can't object to a country supposedly violating a treaty that you didn't even sign.
MIflyer12 wrote:
Sure there is. Airspace follows the international treaties establishing Law of the Sea. https://www.britannica.com/topic/air-law
The 12 nautical miles is the maximum limit permitted by the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.
B777LRF wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:
Sure there is. Airspace follows the international treaties establishing Law of the Sea. https://www.britannica.com/topic/air-law
The 12 nautical miles is the maximum limit permitted by the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.
My bad, should have typed 12 rather than 15. However, two things spring to mind:
1: It's impossible to be 12-miles offshore in the straits; either you're in Iranian, Omani or UAE waters
2: The US is not a signatory to that convention
Do try operating an Iranian flagged drone 13-miles off shore from New York and see what'll happen.
VSMUT wrote:B777LRF wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:
Sure there is. Airspace follows the international treaties establishing Law of the Sea. https://www.britannica.com/topic/air-law
The 12 nautical miles is the maximum limit permitted by the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.
My bad, should have typed 12 rather than 15. However, two things spring to mind:
1: It's impossible to be 12-miles offshore in the straits; either you're in Iranian, Omani or UAE waters
2: The US is not a signatory to that convention
Do try operating an Iranian flagged drone 13-miles off shore from New York and see what'll happen.
Not all of the Strait of Hormuz is less than 24 miles wide. The shootdown happened 150 km to the south, at a point where it is 55 miles wide.
acavpics wrote:VSMUT wrote:B777LRF wrote:
My bad, should have typed 12 rather than 15. However, two things spring to mind:
1: It's impossible to be 12-miles offshore in the straits; either you're in Iranian, Omani or UAE waters
2: The US is not a signatory to that convention
Do try operating an Iranian flagged drone 13-miles off shore from New York and see what'll happen.
Not all of the Strait of Hormuz is less than 24 miles wide. The shootdown happened 150 km to the south, at a point where it is 55 miles wide.
Is the place where the shootdown happened an area where commercial airlinetrs fly often? In other words, did the Iranians know for sure that they were shooting down a drone? If they didn't then we are just plain lucky that it was not another MH17.
And how reliable is the technology in the region to minimize the possibility of miscalulation and accidentally approaching or striking an airliner?
VSMUT wrote:acavpics wrote:VSMUT wrote:
Not all of the Strait of Hormuz is less than 24 miles wide. The shootdown happened 150 km to the south, at a point where it is 55 miles wide.
Is the place where the shootdown happened an area where commercial airlinetrs fly often? In other words, did the Iranians know for sure that they were shooting down a drone? If they didn't then we are just plain lucky that it was not another MH17.
And how reliable is the technology in the region to minimize the possibility of miscalulation and accidentally approaching or striking an airliner?
Extremely often. All Qatar flights to/from Asia at the moment go practically right over there. Loads of other flights too. Looked down at that very area more times than I can remember.
As for how sure they were, lets not forget that the MQ-4 Triton is an aircraft that cruises at 60.000 ft - twice the level of an airliner. It probably wasn't flying on a typical airliner track either. From my own experience, Iranian ATC is also pretty competent.
acavpics wrote:So you are saying that the militery personnel in Iran who are in chage of missiles etc are more sophisticated than those in Ukraine who shot down 9M-MRD thinking it was an enemy airforce plane?
acavpics wrote:So you are saying that the militery personnel in Iran who are in chage of missiles etc are more sophisticated than those in Ukraine who shot down 9M-MRD thinking it was an enemy airforce plane?
I'm just worried sick that a gulf airliner, mainly QR, will be involved in such a situation.
sonicruiser wrote:acavpics wrote:So you are saying that the militery personnel in Iran who are in chage of missiles etc are more sophisticated than those in Ukraine who shot down 9M-MRD thinking it was an enemy airforce plane?
Most definitely yes. Iranian airspace is much busier than anywhere in Ukraine and they are quite well aware of this. Also, there are no separatist factions (Russia vs Ukraine) in Iran that could interfere and cause an accident the way it did in MH17 in Ukraine. Iran's missile sites would be very tightly monitored under sole Iranian control relative to the infighting that took place in Ukraine.
Additionally it never ceases to amaze me how even after all these years people still believe that somehow Iran is going to be the one that shoots down a plane by accident when it is widely known that the US that shot down IR655. If we're not worrying about the US accidentally shooting down a civilian airplane, why on earth are we worrying about Iran shooting one down?
DIRECTFLT wrote:FAA Emergency Order Renders Iran Airspace a No-fly Zone
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... o-fly-zone
LTCM wrote:acavpics wrote:As we all saw, a US drone was shot down over Iran earlier today.
No such event occurred.
They shot down a drone in international airspace. It wasn't over Iran.