GoSharks
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:54 am

9Patch wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Jesus Christ. The fact that it's AC responsibility to check their aircraft and y'all still trying to blame her....
I don't think rational person would think like you two. It's too illogical.

I don't think a rational person would believe this story. It's too illogical.


A representative for Air Canada confirmed Adams' account, adding they "remain in contact with her."

From the OP. The bias of some people in this forum is unbelievable.
 
Dominion301
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:55 am

There’s quite a bit of self-righteousness at the start of this thread.

FACT: This is not the first time this has happened.

DOUBLE FACT (and I’m an admitted AC fanboy): It’s NOT the first time it’s happened to AC: https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.theglob ... le1319881/
 
9Patch
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:01 am

aviationaware wrote:
Funny, probably most of the people here would die to be locked into an aircraft over night and she claims damages ;)

Not me. My favorite part of a flight is deplaning at my final destination.
 
Chasensfo
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:12 am

questions wrote:
ojjunior wrote:
"I haven't got much sleep since the reoccurring night terrors and waking up anxious and afraid I'm alone locked up someplace dark,"

Clearly oriented by some jail door low profile lawyer to get some AC money.


Of course she couldn’t just find humor in the situation, have a good laugh and appreciate the story she will have to tell at cocktail parties for the rest of her life.

I’m doubting her story.
- She slept through landing, announcements, taxiing, bins opening and closing, deboarding
- FA’s didn’t see her
- Phone was dead... she didn’t think to plug it in during flight — she was too sleepy to think straight
- She rummaged through the cockpit looking for a flashlight when one is right above the FA jumps seats at the exit door
- And it was 50 feet to the ground! :roll:

Perhaps:

1) She planned this and camped out unnoticed in the lav or curled up on the floor between rows.

2) She’s a total nut case who popped meds prior to the flight and is looking for someone to compensate her for her own lack of responsibility.

Actually yeah, as someone who gets to hear all the good stuff that happens at a major airport everyday at work, seems plausible.
 
ASFlyer
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:45 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Some are asking how or why she wasn't noticed by cleaners or groomers.

As anyone who has flown AC consistently for the lasy 7-8 years can point out, AC reduced cleaning on its aircraft a long time ago. Their short haul fleet has devolved into easily one of the filthiest in the world.

Granted even I thought they'd use the overnight downtime to do...something. Anything. Guess not.


it's possible they would have cleaned in the morning. I'm sure the cleaners weren't on the plane because there's no way, even if they were doing the most basic cleaning job possible (meaning the minimum) they would have missed her. No way at all.
 
N867DA
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:10 am

People pinning the majority of the blame on the passenger are off the mark here, and may not have been on a plane without any power. It rarely happens; even during landing at night there are aisle lights and some reading lights on. It's a lot darker inside than some passengers expect, even with windows open.

Most people don't know what kind of plane they are on, much less what "arming" a door means. Instructions on arming a door or its impact on slide deployment is not in the safety card.

There are placards indicating where emergency equipment is located but in a dimly lit dark cabin a highly stressed passenger may miss this.

I won't weigh in on monetary compensation or the merits of sleeping during landing, but the vast majority of any attributable fault here belongs to the airline. Unless it's discovered this passenger took drastic steps to evade detection.
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9Patch
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:11 am

ElPistolero wrote:
9Patch wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Jesus Christ. The fact that it's AC responsibility to check their aircraft and y'all still trying to blame her....
I don't think rational person would think like you two. It's too illogical.

I don't think a rational person would believe this story. It's too illogical.

Has AC denied it?

That means nothing at this stage of the game.
 
BlueberryWheats
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:04 am

AirKevin wrote:
Would your typical passenger know how to do any of that.


Calm down. Of course a typical passenger wouldn't do those things. I think when one of the posts you quoted mentioned asking for a tow to the VIP terminal for champagne, that's a big clue these aren't serious suggestions.
 
spacecadet
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:10 am

ElPistolero wrote:
9Patch wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Jesus Christ. The fact that it's AC responsibility to check their aircraft and y'all still trying to blame her....
I don't think rational person would think like you two. It's too illogical.

I don't think a rational person would believe this story. It's too illogical.


Has AC denied it?


In fact they called her to apologize.

I don't really know what the debate is here.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
steveinbc
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:22 am

I think most A-netters would love to be trapped in an aircraft alone overnight. I would have made a G&T from the galley, taken every business class blanket and pillow and settled in for the night.
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bennett123
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:33 am

If I opened the door and found a 30 foot drop, I would have settled down in First/Business and wait for the morning.
 
joeycapps
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:57 am

I, too, am perplexed as to how she was missed. The average sized human is pretty hard to miss, in close quarters nonetheless... Lots of pax and crew walking around during and after deplaning, it just seems strange.

Having said that, Air Canada confirmed the story per the article, so we can rule out that this is a baseless attempt at settlement money. Whether she does sue for emotional damages, etc, is to be determined as of when the article was written. And unfortunately, that is all too often encouraged by the lowest and/or most attention seeking attorneys around.

I'd also like to add, IMHO, that some of these comments are interesting, to say the least. Here we are, on an aviation forum, talking to fellow avgeeks and (in some cases) actual airline employees. Of course some of you may "wish" this would happen to you. Of course some of you think that having an A320 to yourself, even if to just "sleep onboard" until the next morning, is cool... But we represent a small minority of the billions of people on earth. There are a lot of people who don't know who airplanes work, who don't know where every flashlight is, and who don't want to pull a slide and walk across a field to find help. And even though I have my opinions on how I'd handle it - most people who have limited aviation knowledge, wouldn't know where to begin if they find themselves in that situation. Doesn't matter if its a 20 foot drop, 15 foot, or 100 feet. It's higher up than most people care to jump, and in the heat of the moment, some folks would freak out and perhaps misstate or exaggerate the details in their mind.

As a final note, I don't think (once again, IMHO) that there is always blame to pass around in every situation. Accidents happen, things get overlooked, and unfortunately it happened to someone who isn't perhaps an avgeek like one of us. AC shouldn't be taken to the cleaners, the pax in question shouldn't be ridiculed, and thankfully, most importantly, life goes on. As long as AC can satisfactorily right this wrong, in whatever way that is mutually agreeable between both parties, then all's well that ends well.
 
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longhauler
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:28 pm

Air Canada took ownership of its error very quickly after discovering the passenger. No excuses, no denials. Using the Reason (Swiss Cheese) model, I can see how this unfortunate incident occurred ...

It is very rare for a domestic hard stand operation. While I am sure standards are being written as we speak, there are no set rules of operation. It is not like international hard stand ops where customs and security are monitoring the aircraft until it is empty.

Normally, at the end of the days operations, the aircraft is groomed to what is termed a "deep clean" as opposed to the "freshen up clean" during the day. A "freshen up" crew would have cleaned after passengers were off, but the "deep clean" crew in a different vehicle, equipment and schedule would have arrived later over night.

I am wondering about catering, as they also meet the aircraft on arrival to remove all galley items. While the thougth of G&Ts with a front row seat of ramp ops appeals to most on this site, there likely was nothing in the galleys at all.

But, having had to endure the hard stand ops in YYZ, one of the issues is getting the crew off the aircraft after the passengers have been bused to the terminal. Sometimes you wait as much as 30-40 minutes for transport. If the crew saw a bus, they likely dove for it, not even noticing someone sleeping in the back.

So ... I can see how this happened. I can also see multiple memos and reminders, not to mention changes in SOPs to make sure it doesn't happen again.

As for the passenger's purported "night terrors", I can understand that as well. I have sat with a passenger waiting for a delayed wheelchair. Even with me and an F/A there (I am always last to leave the ship), the passenger often gets very panicky. So, to wake up in a dark unpowered aircraft must have been pretty frightening.
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CFM565A1
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:24 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Some are asking how or why she wasn't noticed by cleaners or groomers.

As anyone who has flown AC consistently for the lasy 7-8 years can point out, AC reduced cleaning on its aircraft a long time ago. Their short haul fleet has devolved into easily one of the filthiest in the world.

Granted even I thought they'd use the overnight downtime to do...something. Anything. Guess not.


Actually they’re groomed on longer turns or downtime like this plane had been in this case. Do not equate your observations from sitting in the passenger cabin to how the cleaning and grooming schedules work.
Flown: C172-M/N/P/R/S , P2006T, PA-34-200T, DH8A/C Been on: B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
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qf789
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:37 pm

longhauler wrote:
Normally, at the end of the days operations, the aircraft is groomed to what is termed a "deep clean" as opposed to the "freshen up clean" during the day. A "freshen up" crew would have cleaned after passengers were off, but the "deep clean" crew in a different vehicle, equipment and schedule would have arrived later over night.

I am wondering about catering, as they also meet the aircraft on arrival to remove all galley items. While the thougth of G&Ts with a front row seat of ramp ops appeals to most on this site, there likely was nothing in the galleys at all.



I wouldn't call the end of day clean a deep clean as they are usually only done on each aircraft once a month, well they are for the airline I work for. Typically an end of day clean would be what is called a termination clean while during the day cleaning would be a turn around clean, a hot turn is what we call it for aircraft turning straight around and a semi turn for an aircraft that is on the ground for more than 2 hours. Anyway in this case is sounds like cleaners had not been on board yet.

As for catering it depends, sometimes catering is onboard to remove everything shortly after the aircraft arrive on other occasions they take hours, depends on other flights and of course those going out again take priority
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ElPistolero
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:46 pm

CFM565A1 wrote:
Actually they’re groomed on longer turns or downtime like this plane had been in this case. Do not equate your observations from sitting in the passenger cabin to how the cleaning and grooming schedules work.


Why not? The cleanliness - or filthiness - of the passenger cabin is as good an indicator of cleaning/grooming schedules as any. More often=cleaner cabins. AC's general cabin cleanliness standards are some way behind airlines it likes to compare itself to - LH/LX etc.

I too assumed that this kind of downtime would be used to clean... evidently that cleaning was scheduled for sometime after this lady woke up. How does it work anyway? Does the cleaning crew use air stairs to get in and power up the aircraft, or is it cleaned after being towed to the gate for its next flight, in which case is it a quick groom rather than a "deep clean"?
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:54 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
Actually they’re groomed on longer turns or downtime like this plane had been in this case. Do not equate your observations from sitting in the passenger cabin to how the cleaning and grooming schedules work.


Why not? The cleanliness - or filthiness - of the passenger cabin is as good an indicator of cleaning/grooming schedules as any. More often=cleaner cabins. AC's general cabin cleanliness standards are some way behind airlines it likes to compare itself to - LH/LX etc.

I too assumed that this kind of downtime would be used to clean... evidently that cleaning was scheduled for sometime after this lady woke up. How does it work anyway? Does the cleaning crew use air stairs to get in and power up the aircraft, or is it cleaned after being towed to the gate for its next flight, in which case is it a quick groom rather than a "deep clean"?


But as passengers you haven’t got a clue as to the aircraft’s schedule for the day and if there’s been adequate time to groom the aircraft. Keep in mind Air Canada and WestJet operate in mostly winter filled with delays. A lot of times we have hot turns due to weather delays and this does not allow for thorough grooming.

Cleaning crews are usually there at 2 different points in the aircraft’s day. Between flights when there’s more time than what’s considered a hot turn for that aircraft size. They’ll board the aircraft once the passengers are all off. Hot turns it’s up to the crews to do all the grooming.

During the day the groomers check the seat pockets, clean the aisle, do the lavs etc.

The more extensive clean is when the plane is sent to the hangar for scheduled maintenance. There the more extensive job is done.

But to say “I’m not surprised she wasn’t spotted by the groomers because AC’s planes are filthy” to paraphrase the conclusion you drew above... that’s kind of silly.
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qf789
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:56 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
Actually they’re groomed on longer turns or downtime like this plane had been in this case. Do not equate your observations from sitting in the passenger cabin to how the cleaning and grooming schedules work.


Why not? The cleanliness - or filthiness - of the passenger cabin is as good an indicator of cleaning/grooming schedules as any. More often=cleaner cabins. AC's general cabin cleanliness standards are some way behind airlines it likes to compare itself to - LH/LX etc.

I too assumed that this kind of downtime would be used to clean... evidently that cleaning was scheduled for sometime after this lady woke up. How does it work anyway? Does the cleaning crew use air stairs to get in and power up the aircraft, or is it cleaned after being towed to the gate for its next flight, in which case is it a quick groom rather than a "deep clean"?


I will put things in some perspective for you.

Every airline has different standards. I actually work for a ground handling company which have a contract with one of the Australian domestic carriers and as such we are also indirect employees of the airline with all the benefits that come with it. Ultimately though I work for a ground handler the airline dictates what they expect and how long it should take.

During the course of the day OTP takes preference over cleaning. During out hot turns which can be as little as 35 minutes for 737's and 70 minutes for A332's we must stay on OTP. If we cause a delay we are charged up to $1000 a minute by the airline for the delay. On these turns for 737's the incoming crew will clean the cabin, that includes removing rubbish from seat pockets, crossing belts and vacuuming, while we will provide new business class blankets, pillows and IFE's while removing the used ones and supplying new toiletry and hygiene kits, plus a quick clean of the toilets, typically this is done by 1-2 cleaners and we are expected to be on and off within 5 minutes. On the A332's we are given 20 minutes during the day and 25 minutes during the night due to extra loading of linen for redeye flights, we will give business a full clean and in economy seat belts are crossed and seat pockets are emptied of rubbish, old headsets are collected and new ones distributed along with aircraft being vacuumed. Normally 4-5 cleaners will be in the cabin and another one will be responsible for cleaning toilets.

On a semi turn, this is an aircraft which is on the ground during the day for more than 2 hours, with the 737's we would check seat pockets and cross seat belts, vacuum, do toilets and clean galleys. On the A332's we would wipe tray tables and clean galleys. Typically on these 2 types of turns though the crew are responsible for seats they have a tendency to throw the seat belts across the seats and not cross them, when it comes to fleet presentation if left up to the crew it is presented poorly.

Termination cleans are done at the each of day. For aircraft doing redeyes they tend to go without a proper termination clean for a couple of days. Depending on the number of cleaners depends on the time allocated to clean the aircraft. For the 737's 4 people would be allocated 40-45 minutes, 5 would 35-40 minutes and 6 30-35 minutes. On a A332 we are allocated up to an hour and half for a termination clean. For the 737's a termination clean includes seats (cross seat belts, empty rubbish from pockets, wipe seats, tray tables and back of seats), vacuum all floors, removal of all used linen and IFE's, clean galleys (empty rubbish bin and double lining with fresh bags, clean all surfaces including inside ovens, cleaning over crew seats, aircraft doors and mopping floors), spot clean walls, clean all air vents on side walls and above seats, clean overheads, clean emergency exit stripping on floors and replace refills in seat back pockets (safety cards, WIFI card, onboard menu, magazine and sick bag), thorough clean of toilets (restock toiletries behind mirror, clean mirror, toilet, air vent, all walls, door and floors), restock toilet and hygiene kits, replace battery in onboard vacuum cleaner.

Deep cleans are done once a month or there abouts. I have only done them on A332's but normally we would be noticed in advance on when the airline wants the deep clean done, normally it would take 10-12 cleaners 4 hours to deep clean the aircraft. 2 would be in business, 6-8 in economy, 1 on toilets and 1 on galleys and walls. In economy all seats are removed, cleaned underneath then replaced, front part of seat pocket which is held under the seat with Velcro is which is pulled back (this is where all the rubbish that falls down the holes in each end of the seat pocket and is stored), all seats are cleaned along with head rests, all walls cleaned, all vents and overheads cleaned, all windows and shades cleaned (shades are left down as inside of aircraft is sprayed after cleaning as is the hold). Business is the same though seats are cloth so we have to run a small thingy me jig over it to get rid of all the knots in the fabric, this can easily take 15 minutes a seat.

We also clean aircraft on remote bays. If we have a few aircraft arrive at the same time sometimes they will be towed. We normally stay on board while it gets towed, except for the one with the ADA (Airside Driving Authority). For aircraft that have been towed, stairs are normally in place to access the aircraft, the only exception is during high winds stairs are pulled back for obvious reasons. If the front door is closed, only someone who is signed off on doors can open it, if you were to accidently deploy the slide because you didn't check and follow the right procedure it costs the airline around $20,000 for a new slide. If there is no power to the aircraft we call the engineers to come and put the power on, at no point do we turn it on ourselves. Engineers are also called when cleaning has finished to turn power off. Normally they will use the APU to power the aircraft in this situation, they also put the aircon on during the hotter months as inside it can be around 15 degrees celcius hotter than outside, even in winter months the aircraft stay quite warm they don't cool down fast. If the APU is running the aircraft is required to have stairs attached
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bennett123
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:53 pm

So with your customer there would have been a Termination Clean by a Contractor Cleaning Crew in this situation.

How soon would this be done after the plane is parked for the night?
 
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qf789
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:02 pm

bennett123 wrote:
So with your customer there would have been a Termination Clean by a Contractor Cleaning Crew in this situation.

How soon would this be done after the plane is parked for the night?


It all depends on a few things, depends on what time the team starts, what time aircraft arrive, any turnarounds take preference. For example tomorrow night we will start with an A332 terminator, by the time we finish that we will have another 3 or 4 terminations on the ground so some aircraft may sit on the ground for a couple of hours before we get on. If the aircraft is towed the majority one of the reasons it gets towed other than to free up the gate is that between the 737's out of the mainline fleet and A320's and F100's in the regional fleet there is typically 2-3 aircraft a night that have the exterior cleaned (essentially from the height of the wings and underneath the fuselage), in that case we can not access the aircraft until the exterior cleaners have finished
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TheRedBaron
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:31 pm

If I was in that plane Id love to get into the cockpit and use my training to startup the Apu the lights and beacons... problem solved.... probably go to jail...but heck sometimes you have to see the glass half full.

Regards
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ElPistolero
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at

Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:40 pm

CFM565A1 wrote:

But as passengers you haven’t got a clue as to the aircraft’s schedule for the day and if there’s been adequate time to groom the aircraft. Keep in mind Air Canada and WestJet operate in mostly winter filled with delays. A lot of times we have hot turns due to weather delays and this does not allow for thorough grooming.

Cleaning crews are usually there at 2 different points in the aircraft’s day. Between flights when there’s more time than what’s considered a hot turn for that aircraft size. They’ll board the aircraft once the passengers are all off. Hot turns it’s up to the crews to do all the grooming.

During the day the groomers check the seat pockets, clean the aisle, do the lavs etc.

The more extensive clean is when the plane is sent to the hangar for scheduled maintenance. There the more extensive job is done.

But to say “I’m not surprised she wasn’t spotted by the groomers because AC’s planes are filthy” to paraphrase the conclusion you drew above... that’s kind of silly.


The more accurate paraphrase would be "I'm not surprised she wasn't spotted by the groomers because AC's filthy cabins suggest that groomers/cleaners don't come by as often as one would think (hope?)". Either way, there were evidently no groomers involved before this aircraft was locked up for the night, although they might have been scheduled to come on board later. I don't doubt that she would have been discovered before the next flight.

As an aside, it isn't hard to track a particular fin's schedule for the day - or week - in this day and age (FR24 etc). Nor does the delay argument carry much weight - it's a situation than can be solved by padding block times to factor in winter-related. That they aren't is as much a function of corporate decisions - maximum aircraft utilization - as it is weather related. Of course that also impacts grooming time, which we passengers get to unfortunately witness.

QF789's post has me wondering: how often does AC do deep cleans? Monthly?
 
ElPistolero
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:44 pm

qf789 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
So with your customer there would have been a Termination Clean by a Contractor Cleaning Crew in this situation.

How soon would this be done after the plane is parked for the night?


It all depends on a few things, depends on what time the team starts, what time aircraft arrive, any turnarounds take preference. For example tomorrow night we will start with an A332 terminator, by the time we finish that we will have another 3 or 4 terminations on the ground so some aircraft may sit on the ground for a couple of hours before we get on. If the aircraft is towed the majority one of the reasons it gets towed other than to free up the gate is that between the 737's out of the mainline fleet and A320's and F100's in the regional fleet there is typically 2-3 aircraft a night that have the exterior cleaned (essentially from the height of the wings and underneath the fuselage), in that case we can not access the aircraft until the exterior cleaners have finished


Do you get access to towed aircraft, or do you have to wait for it to get back to the gate the next day? In this case, would it be possible for cleaners to come on board in the early hours of the morning while the aircraft was still parked away from an air bridge?
 
TObound
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:00 pm

The attitude in these forums.....

All after AC actually both owned the incident and got in touch with the pax.

And some of you are really missing the implications.

1) If this happened during our colder winters or a Southern Ontario heat wave, AC could well have been dealing with a fatality, and some traumatized cleaner who found her. That coroner’s inquest could have nailed AC to the proverbial wall.

2) Imagine this happened with a less collected passenger. Imagine this happened with someone nefarious who wanted access to the restricted area. They damage they could have caused to the aircraft or other aircraft or infrastructure in the area.

It’s also disgusting that people think she’s out for money. Waking up in a dark metal tube would be horrifying to anyone who has no clue about aviation. And even the average fan would really not know what to do. Expecting the average passenger to wake up in a pitch black tube, not parked at a jet bridge and calmly figure out how to contact someone shows how out of touch some of you are with reality.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:24 pm

TObound wrote:
The attitude in these forums.....

All after AC actually both owned the incident and got in touch with the pax.

And some of you are really missing the implications.

1) If this happened during our colder winters or a Southern Ontario heat wave, AC could well have been dealing with a fatality, and some traumatized cleaner who found her. That coroner’s inquest could have nailed AC to the proverbial wall.

2) Imagine this happened with a less collected passenger. Imagine this happened with someone nefarious who wanted access to the restricted area. They damage they could have caused to the aircraft or other aircraft or infrastructure in the area.

It’s also disgusting that people think she’s out for money. Waking up in a dark metal tube would be horrifying to anyone who has no clue about aviation. And even the average fan would really not know what to do. Expecting the average passenger to wake up in a pitch black tube, not parked at a jet bridge and calmly figure out how to contact someone shows how out of touch some of you are with reality.


Concisely well put.
As you say, "less collected"... can you imagine if it were an elderly/frail pax? One could easily imagine an injury fumbling around in the cramped, dark space in a panic. Couple that with extreme temps... yikes.

I like all the people on here casually suggesting "starting the APU", flashing aircraft lights, calling out the one the radio(!), etc. As if that is remotely in the capability of even a tiny % of pax. The theory that this is a planned shakedown of AC, and that she "hid in the lav" is so preposterous in its lack of factual support. You know would be a whole lot more effective? Actually dropping to the ground from the door and sustaining a real or faked injury.

Frankly the pax did very, very well, as far as I'm concerned. She found a flashlight, opened the door, and successfully attracted help.
She took control and helped herself.
That she's scorned here for not accurately calculating the distance to the ground, or stating she's had nightmares, is so a.net absurd.
 
ewt340
Posts: 747
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:58 am

9Patch wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Jesus Christ. The fact that it's AC responsibility to check their aircraft and y'all still trying to blame her....
I don't think rational person would think like you two. It's too illogical.

I don't think a rational person would believe this story. It's too illogical.


And yet AC believes it. How illogical of them.

The fact that their FA's failed to notice her before deboarding the aircraft is ILLOGICAL.

Not the fact that she fell asleep during landing or deboarding. Cause I do the same thing once during red-eye. But the FA woke me up and I'm the last one to deboard.
 
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qf789
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:41 am

ElPistolero wrote:
qf789 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
So with your customer there would have been a Termination Clean by a Contractor Cleaning Crew in this situation.

How soon would this be done after the plane is parked for the night?


It all depends on a few things, depends on what time the team starts, what time aircraft arrive, any turnarounds take preference. For example tomorrow night we will start with an A332 terminator, by the time we finish that we will have another 3 or 4 terminations on the ground so some aircraft may sit on the ground for a couple of hours before we get on. If the aircraft is towed the majority one of the reasons it gets towed other than to free up the gate is that between the 737's out of the mainline fleet and A320's and F100's in the regional fleet there is typically 2-3 aircraft a night that have the exterior cleaned (essentially from the height of the wings and underneath the fuselage), in that case we can not access the aircraft until the exterior cleaners have finished


Do you get access to towed aircraft, or do you have to wait for it to get back to the gate the next day? In this case, would it be possible for cleaners to come on board in the early hours of the morning while the aircraft was still parked away from an air bridge?


Yes we get access to towed aircraft and all aircraft get cleaned before we go home which may be 130am or 4am depending on the day and the schedules, sometimes later than that with delays
Forum Moderator
 
TObound
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:40 am

bennett123 wrote:
If I opened the door and found a 30 foot drop, I would have settled down in First/Business and wait for the morning.


What would you do if it was in a Toronto winter or heat wave? This situation fortunately worked out the absolute best way possible. AC might not be this lucky again.
 
TObound
Posts: 277
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:52 am

FlyHappy wrote:
TObound wrote:
The attitude in these forums.....

All after AC actually both owned the incident and got in touch with the pax.

And some of you are really missing the implications.

1) If this happened during our colder winters or a Southern Ontario heat wave, AC could well have been dealing with a fatality, and some traumatized cleaner who found her. That coroner’s inquest could have nailed AC to the proverbial wall.

2) Imagine this happened with a less collected passenger. Imagine this happened with someone nefarious who wanted access to the restricted area. They damage they could have caused to the aircraft or other aircraft or infrastructure in the area.

It’s also disgusting that people think she’s out for money. Waking up in a dark metal tube would be horrifying to anyone who has no clue about aviation. And even the average fan would really not know what to do. Expecting the average passenger to wake up in a pitch black tube, not parked at a jet bridge and calmly figure out how to contact someone shows how out of touch some of you are with reality.


Concisely well put.
As you say, "less collected"... can you imagine if it were an elderly/frail pax? One could easily imagine an injury fumbling around in the cramped, dark space in a panic. Couple that with extreme temps... yikes.

I like all the people on here casually suggesting "starting the APU", flashing aircraft lights, calling out the one the radio(!), etc. As if that is remotely in the capability of even a tiny % of pax. The theory that this is a planned shakedown of AC, and that she "hid in the lav" is so preposterous in its lack of factual support. You know would be a whole lot more effective? Actually dropping to the ground from the door and sustaining a real or faked injury.

Frankly the pax did very, very well, as far as I'm concerned. She found a flashlight, opened the door, and successfully attracted help.
She took control and helped herself.
That she's scorned here for not accurately calculating the distance to the ground, or stating she's had nightmares, is so a.net absurd.



It's actually incredible that nobody got hurt in this case. Blaming the passenger in this case is nuts. Airlines have a basic duty of care to their customers on their property. If she got injured and this went to court, AC and the crew would be liable, if their lawyers were even stupid enough to let it go to trial (which I doubt).

She never asked for money. And even declined the hotel AC offered. If she ends up getting paid (and we aren't generally as litigious as the US), AC would deserve it. They should look at their procedures and question the crews involved (air and ground). I suspect someone didn't do their job properly.
 
chrisair
Posts: 2041
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:57 am

bennett123 wrote:
The plane landed, normally with a fair bump and she slept on.

The other passengers deplaned, hardly a quite time and she slept on.

Those meds must be pretty strong.


No idea if this is true, and I'm sure this reply will get completely ignored-if someone quotes me and responds to my comment below, I'll give you a purple monkey dishwasher-but sleeping through everything doesn't seem unrealistic to me. I've done it.

Many years ago, I had a really bad cold but had to absolutely be in PHL for work. I had a shot of Wild Turkey on a short WN flight then completely forgot I did that and downed NyQuil before departing on the long flight. I was asleep from pushback to landing, taxiing, deplaning and the first two through pax counts. I only woke up when the FA shook me and asked if I wanted to go to whatever the next stop was. To date, that was my best sleep on a plane and I've flown EK F!
 
ZKCIF
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:18 pm

Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:01 am

I believe her. 5 years ago, I flew PEK-MUC-RIX on Air China and Air Baltic with a 14+ hour connection in Munich. Air Baltic had a change from 733 to 735, and we as a family of 3 got scattered around the plane. As soon as I boarded the BT735, I fell into a deep sleep, and the next thing I was conscious to experience was my wife shaking me in Riga. So You see me there - If I were a lone passenger and the crew did not care, I could have spent the night on YL-BBM. It's not that I mind, though...
And I took no medicines.
 
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777Jet
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:34 am

Just saw this story on the nightly TV news in Sydney, but it has been a slow news day.

qf789 wrote:
If we cause a delay we are charged up to $1000 a minute by the airline for the delay.


I was told a delay leaving the gate at SYD costs the airline $1,000 per minute, so I guess the airlines look to pass it on to the cause.

Thank you for your entire post and insights. I enjoyed reading it.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
lavalampluva
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:51 am

90 minute flight, and she slept through everything?
Was she on some sort of medication?
No one sitting the the seat next to her during the flight?
De-boarding flights IMO are very noisy and disruptive anyways and she didn't hear all that noise?
No one meeting her at the airport? If so you'd think they would have contacted the airline.
Apparently it's not AC policy to check aircraft before leaving the gate for the hard stand. When would the aircraft have been cleaned?
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2604
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:04 pm

questions wrote:
- Phone was dead... she didn’t think to plug it in during flight — she was too sleepy to think straight
- She rummaged through the cockpit looking for a flashlight when one is right above the FA jumps seats at the exit door


What a high and mighty comment.....lots of people forget to charge their phones......you've never been in that position? Good for you!

As for the flashlight above the FA's seat, half the members on this forum don't know that.....I didn't......nice to know that you have such a good understanding of equipment on planes....
 
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Vio
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:43 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Some are asking how or why she wasn't noticed by cleaners or groomers.

As anyone who has flown AC consistently for the lasy 7-8 years can point out, AC reduced cleaning on its aircraft a long time ago. Their short haul fleet has devolved into easily one of the filthiest in the world.

Granted even I thought they'd use the overnight downtime to do...something. Anything. Guess not.



Not true at all. Our airplanes are groomed after every (return) flight to home base and they get a thorough cleaning at night. I've seen it with my own eyes.
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
ikramerica
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:44 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
90 minute flight, and she slept through everything?
Was she on some sort of medication?
No one sitting the the seat next to her during the flight?
De-boarding flights IMO are very noisy and disruptive anyways and she didn't hear all that noise?
No one meeting her at the airport? If so you'd think they would have contacted the airline.
Apparently it's not AC policy to check aircraft before leaving the gate for the hard stand. When would the aircraft have been cleaned?

Flight was 1/3 full. Row to herself. And may not be loud enough to wake you. Nobody jostling your seat either if plane was that empty.

Its an A320 series, so not 30 feet up. But still too high to jump. Maybe you could lower yourself down and then drop. Still 5+ foot drop.

Edit: looked it up. Unladen its about 12 feet. Not “40-50 feet” like the woman claimed. But still, lowering yourself 5+ feet is still too far to drop safely if you aren't used to it. You could twist an angle or fall backward and bang your head.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
cschleic
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:08 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
9Patch wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Jesus Christ. The fact that it's AC responsibility to check their aircraft and y'all still trying to blame her....
I don't think rational person would think like you two. It's too illogical.

I don't think a rational person would believe this story. It's too illogical.


Has AC denied it?


Well, if everyone would actually read the article they would see this at the end:

A representative for Air Canada confirmed Adams' account, adding they "remain in contact with her."
 
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ssteve
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:09 pm

ojjunior wrote:
"I haven't got much sleep since the reoccurring night terrors and waking up anxious and afraid I'm alone locked up someplace dark,"

Clearly oriented by some jail door low profile lawyer to get some AC money.


Or, watched the Langoliers movie at an impressionable age.
 
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United787
Posts: 2843
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:25 pm

Excellent summary FlyHappy!

BTW, this is completely believable. This happens on Chicago CTA trains every so often. Someone falls asleep and wakes up and the train is in the train yard or worse, in the maintenance shop hoisted up in the air. If it can happen on a CTA train where the seats are far less comfortable, where there is no white noise from the aircraft and where it is more difficult not to be seen... than I am sure under the right circumstances, it was possible on this AC plane.
 
n92r03
Posts: 481
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:10 pm

TObound wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
TObound wrote:
The attitude in these forums.....
She never asked for money. And even declined the hotel AC offered. If she ends up getting paid (and we aren't generally as litigious as the US), AC would deserve it.


So instead of handling this manner directly with AC, she decided she needed an attorney and went on Facebook to report it. Sure...seems legit.
 
77H
Posts: 1443
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:50 am

questions wrote:
ojjunior wrote:
"I haven't got much sleep since the reoccurring night terrors and waking up anxious and afraid I'm alone locked up someplace dark,"

Clearly oriented by some jail door low profile lawyer to get some AC money.


Of course she couldn’t just find humor in the situation, have a good laugh and appreciate the story she will have to tell at cocktail parties for the rest of her life.

I’m doubting her story.
- She slept through landing, announcements, taxiing, bins opening and closing, deboarding
- FA’s didn’t see her
- Phone was dead... she didn’t think to plug it in during flight — she was too sleepy to think straight
- She rummaged through the cockpit looking for a flashlight when one is right above the FA jumps seats at the exit door
- And it was 50 feet to the ground! :roll:

Perhaps:

1) She planned this and camped out unnoticed in the lav or curled up on the floor between rows.

2) She’s a total nut case who popped meds prior to the flight and is looking for someone to compensate her for her own lack of responsibility.


I have personally slept through landing, taxi and deplaning on several occasions. The last time it happened, a fellow passenger was kind enough to rouse me as he was going past my row. I have also been woken up by an FA as she was collecting her suitcase from an overhead across from me.

It is a little surprising no one saw her and tried to wake her up, be it the FAs, cabin cleaners or even a fellow passenger. But if the FAs were in a rush to make their next assignment or go home and if there was no cabin cleaning that night I can see how it would happen. If nothing else it is a pretty big break down in security. As for inclination to try and exact money from AC... life’s too short honey. Move on.

77H
 
GoSharks
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:23 am

Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:17 am

n92r03 wrote:
TObound wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:


So instead of handling this manner directly with AC, she decided she needed an attorney and went on Facebook to report it. Sure...seems legit.

What’s wrong with Facebook? Social media is a legitimate method of getting a response from large companies these days. Also, do you have a link for where she got an attorney? I missed that from he initial link in the OP.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7609
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:41 am

So apparently this really did happen. Poor woman!
It's like something out of Steven King.

Seriously, did he eat a meatball marinara hoagie late at night once and have a nightmare where he's in an empty plane ant an empty airport and being chased by raunchy meatballs???
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:44 am

As a Non-Rev college student, when I had to catch the Friday 6:30am flight to get from Austin to Dallas on Texas-OU weekend, I remember the plane taking off, and the next thing I remember is landing.

I slept so soundly, I missed the college girl in the seat next to me -who drank too much the night before- barfing. She confessed it to me, and I didn't know why, until I saw a small chunk on my tennis shoe.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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Lingon
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:18 pm

Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:19 am

Ponder if a passenger becomes unconscious for some medical reason and dies because he does not get to a hospital in time. Didn't happen this time, but not unthinkable. Making sure everyone has left is important.
 
n92r03
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:46 pm

Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:32 pm

GoSharks wrote:
n92r03 wrote:
TObound wrote:

Also, do you have a link for where she got an attorney?


I did not say there was anything wrong with Facebook or whatever social media platform one would like to use. Using it in this appears to be inviting publicity, possibly for one's personal gain.

Link you requested: https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/ ... gal-action
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:57 pm

I bet AC is cutting corners by not cleaning the planes after use. So there was no cleaning crew present. Also, the flight attendants are in the front of the plane.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:48 pm

Also, do aircraft have keys like a car? Can anyone start a plane up?
 
KentB27
Posts: 476
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:23 pm

This story reeks of bullshit. I don't believe any of it.
 
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spinotter
Posts: 519
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: AC Passenger left on plane at remote stand at YYZ

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:07 pm

Lingon wrote:
Ponder if a passenger becomes unconscious for some medical reason and dies because he does not get to a hospital in time. Didn't happen this time, but not unthinkable. Making sure everyone has left is important.


Yes, impossible to disagree, but in this human world of ours there will be some oversights. And nothing bad happened to her. In this litigation country of ours people are always trying for an angle to enrich themselves over nothing, and it makes for a pitiful society.

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