blueflyer
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Re: Lufthansa Capital Markets Day - Changes to EW, SN

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:54 am

Blerg wrote:
Ok, SN isn't going away but anyone knows what they plan on doing in order to make it more profitable and efficient?

They don't know yet... Lufty is giving itself a quarter to figure it out. A plan is due end of Q3.
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conaly
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Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:34 pm

Didn't see a thread on this topic, if I missed it, please close or move my thread.

According to aero.de, Lufthansa group wants to simplify its long range fleet by 2025. Currently they have 13 different types in the whole group:

A330-200 (SN)
A330-300 (LH, SN, LX, WK)
A340-300 (LH, SN, LX, WK)
A340-600 (LH)
A350-900 (LH)
A380-800 (LH)
B747-400 (LH)
B747-8 (LH)
B767-300ER (OS)
B777-200ER (OS)
B777F (LHC)
B777-300ER (LX)
MD11F (LHC)

Until 2025 all A332, A343, A346, B744, B763, B772 and MD11F will leave the fleets, while adding the B779 and the B789 and more A359s and simplifying the fleet structure to eight types.

Image

Source: https://www.aero.de/news-31939/71-Lufth ... uktur.html (German)

Nothing quite new, I believe most of the retirements could be foreseen for quite some time. But interesting to see, that every airline within the group will face some changes to their respective fleet. For OS for example this would be a complete exchange of their whole long haul fleet, as they have been for quite some time the oddball. Swiss and Edelweiss will only lose/repalce their A343s. Will be interesting to see now, how the new ordered planes will be split between the groups. The 789 has been shown in LH, LX and OS colors while all others only in LH colors. Still I could imagine some A359 and B779 with LX and/or OS.
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:35 pm

Will be interesting to see how long they will keep B747-800I.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:41 pm

Lufthansa apparently likes to keep their aircraft as long as possible and the B748 works quite good for them. And as all of them (like the rest of the LH fleet) is owned and not leased, I can imagine seeing the jumbo flying in the 2030s. The oldest 748 has been delivered in 2012, the youngest in 2015, so they still have quite a long life.
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:44 pm

:relieved: Pheeew :relieved: when I saw the thread title I thought "oh no, so LH envisages an early retirement of its A380's as well?"
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:03 pm

finnishway wrote:
Will be interesting to see how long they will keep B747-800I.

Will be interesting to see how soon they order the Boeing NMA. :stirthepot:

N14AZ wrote:
:relieved: Pheeew :relieved: when I saw the thread title I thought "oh no, so LH envisages an early retirement of its A380's as well?"

6 of 14 A380s are going early ( ref: https://simpleflying.com/lufthansa-sells-airbus-a380s/ ) for "economic reasons".

The closing of the production line will cast a pall on the future of the A380.

748 must also be getting a very close examination, yet it looks like it didn't get cut during this round of decision making.

The fact that Boeing keeps making 748F and has no real competition in that space is a positive factor for it.
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:22 pm

About time. LH group has great negotiating leverage. 787s, A350s,779s all have a place. NMA too. All the maintenance variables have to be a cost driver.

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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
:relieved: Pheeew :relieved: when I saw the thread title I thought "oh no, so LH envisages an early retirement of its A380's as well?"

6 of 14 A380s are going early ( ref: https://simpleflying.com/lufthansa-sells-airbus-a380s/ ) for "economic reasons".

The closing of the production line will cast a pall on the future of the A380.

I know this, of course. But they will keep eight airframes. Well, at least until 31/12/2025, oh excuse me, for you: until 12/31/2025. That's why I expressed my relief.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:37 pm

Eight is still a lot. How about A320neo family, 787, A350 and 777-9 only? Brutal I know.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:44 pm

Noshow wrote:
Eight is still a lot. How about A320neo family, 787, A350 and 777-9 only? Brutal I know.

Eight airframes out of a fleet of about 300 airframes is not that much. It shows once again that the A380 is a niche aircraft. I think nobody is denying this anymore. So who knows when one of these smart business consultants comes along with a fancy power point presentation to show that such a small fleet could be easily replaced by B779’s, which they have on order anyway…
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:00 pm

apparently, capacity-wise the 748 works quite well for them. percect fit with 365 seats in total.
the "only" burden is probably the fact of 4 engines thus the fuel consumption; however, the 777-9 will be an 1-to-1 replacement.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:35 pm

Young passenger 747-8 would make for good freighter conversion material with long service life left.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:49 pm

Revelation wrote:
finnishway wrote:
Will be interesting to see how long they will keep B747-800I.

Will be interesting to see how soon they order the Boeing NMA. :stirthepot:

N14AZ wrote:
:relieved: Pheeew :relieved: when I saw the thread title I thought "oh no, so LH envisages an early retirement of its A380's as well?"

6 of 14 A380s are going early ( ref: https://simpleflying.com/lufthansa-sells-airbus-a380s/ ) for "economic reasons".

The closing of the production line will cast a pall on the future of the A380.

748 must also be getting a very close examination, yet it looks like it didn't get cut during this round of decision making.

The fact that Boeing keeps making 748F and has no real competition in that space is a positive factor for it.


I have it under good authority that while 6 A380s are sold back to Airbus, they are set to continue to be operated by Lufthansa and that Lufthansa is planning to operate 14 A380s after 2025. Sounds like a sale and lease back construction.

Cheers!
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:51 pm

LX and WK should in my opinion reduce their widebody fleet to one type (with subtypes). So either A330neo or B787. As the 777er is to big anyway they could give it to LH. It is still pretty new.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:51 pm

N14AZ wrote:
It shows once again that the A380 is a niche aircraft. I think nobody is denying this anymore. So who knows when one of these smart business consultants comes along with a fancy power point presentation

Maybe the Whale would find its lucky niche in the gaming capitals of the world..... :sly: .....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... no-221581/
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:57 pm

So does this mean no A350-1000's or 787-10's before 2025?
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:03 pm

If no one wants your used aircraft, rest value is zero, you better keep them for their economical life time.
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:03 pm

Just my two cents here:

1) Lufthansa's 747-8 fleet is laid out VERY premium-heavy - 88 J seats in addition to true F class in the nose. This special sub-fleet is rotated into seasonal markets whose premium demand ebbs and flows. For example, LAX sees a second 747-8 daily flight to FRA in addition to the other FRA and MUC dailies (A346 and A380).

2) It will be interesting to see where new aircraft are based. This will make ALL the difference in the world. For example, San Diego is doing well for LH, but if the A343 is on the way out, what will replace it? The 787-9? I guess whatever ends up being based at FRA...

3) What is Edelweiss Air going to get? Brand-new planes? Or will they continue to get hand-me-downs?
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:08 pm

Where will the MD-11's go to? The A340's?

Other airlines? Storage? Scrap?
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:13 pm

LifelinerOne wrote:
Revelation wrote:
finnishway wrote:
Will be interesting to see how long they will keep B747-800I.

Will be interesting to see how soon they order the Boeing NMA. :stirthepot:

N14AZ wrote:
:relieved: Pheeew :relieved: when I saw the thread title I thought "oh no, so LH envisages an early retirement of its A380's as well?"

6 of 14 A380s are going early ( ref: https://simpleflying.com/lufthansa-sells-airbus-a380s/ ) for "economic reasons".

The closing of the production line will cast a pall on the future of the A380.

748 must also be getting a very close examination, yet it looks like it didn't get cut during this round of decision making.

The fact that Boeing keeps making 748F and has no real competition in that space is a positive factor for it.


I have it under good authority that while 6 A380s are sold back to Airbus, they are set to continue to be operated by Lufthansa and that Lufthansa is planning to operate 14 A380s after 2025. Sounds like a sale and lease back construction.

Cheers!


This will be sad news for many here who are wishing A380's demise from airline fleets. :bigthumbsup:
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:15 pm

Devilfish wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
It shows once again that the A380 is a niche aircraft. I think nobody is denying this anymore. So who knows when one of these smart business consultants comes along with a fancy power point presentation

Maybe the Whale would find its lucky niche in the gaming capitals of the world..... :sly: .....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... no-221581/

Wow, never heard about this consideration...
LifelinerOne wrote:
Revelation wrote:
finnishway wrote:
Will be interesting to see how long they will keep B747-800I.

Will be interesting to see how soon they order the Boeing NMA. :stirthepot:

N14AZ wrote:
:relieved: Pheeew :relieved: when I saw the thread title I thought "oh no, so LH envisages an early retirement of its A380's as well?"

6 of 14 A380s are going early ( ref: https://simpleflying.com/lufthansa-sells-airbus-a380s/ ) for "economic reasons".

The closing of the production line will cast a pall on the future of the A380.

748 must also be getting a very close examination, yet it looks like it didn't get cut during this round of decision making.

The fact that Boeing keeps making 748F and has no real competition in that space is a positive factor for it.


I have it under good authority that while 6 A380s are sold back to Airbus, they are set to continue to be operated by Lufthansa and that Lufthansa is planning to operate 14 A380s after 2025. Sounds like a sale and lease back construction.

Cheers!

Hmm, but LH clearly stated in an announcement that...

Lufthansa continuously monitors the profitability of its world-wide route network. As a consequence, the group is reducing the size of its Airbus A380 fleet from 14 aircraft to eight for economic reasons.


and their CEO said:

On the A380 sale back to Airbus Carsten Spohr, CEO of Deutsche Lufthansa said: “By replacing four-engine aircraft with new twin-engine models, we are laying the foundation for our future in the long term and sustainably.

Source see link above...
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:15 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Just my two cents here:

2) It will be interesting to see where new aircraft are based. This will make ALL the difference in the world. For example, San Diego is doing well for LH, but if the A343 is on the way out, what will replace it? The 787-9? I guess whatever ends up being based at FRA...

I think that as the fleet is simplified, LH will no longer base aircraft at FRA/MUC based on type. It may be based more on its configuration. So we may see the A343 being replaced by the A350-900 in similar configuration.
Last edited by flee on Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:15 pm

Revelation wrote:

748 must also be getting a very close examination, yet it looks like it didn't get cut during this round of decision making.

The fact that Boeing keeps making 748F and has no real competition in that space is a positive factor for it.


On the contrary. LH must be itching to sell them to be converted to freighters.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:16 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
3) What is Edelweiss Air going to get? Brand-new planes? Or will they continue to get hand-me-downs?


I would say they'll almost certainly get A330s from Swiss, as they already operate the type... though I guess we could also see them getting 787s especially if Siwss get them as well...

acjbbj wrote:
Where will the MD-11's go to? The A340's?

Other airlines? Storage? Scrap?

Scrap presumably. If I remember rightly all of the Swiss A340s that weren't sent to Edelweiss or kept for themselves were scrapped.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:22 pm

flee wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Just my two cents here:

2) It will be interesting to see where new aircraft are based. This will make ALL the difference in the world. For example, San Diego is doing well for LH, but if the A343 is on the way out, what will replace it? The 787-9? I guess whatever ends up being based at FRA...

I think that as the fleet is simplified, LH will no longer base aircraft at FRA/MUC based on type. It may be based more on its configuration. So we may see the A343 being replaced by the A350-900 in similar configuration.


That is a very interesting point; thank you for making it!

Since there's no mega-hub in a Primate City for Germany (such as Paris, London, and Amsterdam), LH has been able to split traffic between FRA and MUC. Given the large number of types, it has made sense for LH to base certain types at certain hubs, but fleet simplification could indeed do away with this entirely.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:02 pm

keesje wrote:
If no one wants your used aircraft, rest value is zero, you better keep them for their economical life time.

That’s what LH had been doing with its planes, even if someone might have had interest in buying their aircraft. See how long they flew their classic B737s and their first A320s.

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Since there's no mega-hub in a Primate City.

Excuse me for asking, I am not a native speaker: what is a Primate City? A city full of primates? We have a lot of such cities... ;-)
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:19 pm

N14AZ wrote:
keesje wrote:
If no one wants your used aircraft, rest value is zero, you better keep them for their economical life time.

That’s what LH had been doing with its planes, even if someone might have had interest in buying their aircraft. See how long they flew their classic B737s and their first A320s.

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Since there's no mega-hub in a Primate City.

Excuse me for asking, I am not a native speaker: what is a Primate City? A city full of primates? We have a lot of such cities... ;-)


Actually, I am the one who should be asking for forgiveness. It was far too early in the morning before the caffeine kicked in to be using my geography teacher terminology.

"Primate City" is a term used in geography to describe a nation where one major city dominates the country socially, culturally, politically, and in population as well. When you ask people to name a city in a country like this, their minds go immediately to this one. Mention Britain, for example, and you get "London", which fits the definition perfectly. Other places include Paris, France, Amsterdam, Netherlands, Copenhagen, Denmark, Buenos Aires, Argentina, as well as many others.

Germany has no primate city. Frankfurt, the primary transportation hub for Germany since the days of the Zeppelins, is only the fifth largest city. No one city can lay claim to being the "Paris of Germany". LH has found success in trying to balance their network without the aid of such a mega-hub in a Primate City by taking a lot of traffic from constrained FRA and channeling much of it through MUC, which has a large O&D of its own.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:45 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Revelation wrote:

748 must also be getting a very close examination, yet it looks like it didn't get cut during this round of decision making.

The fact that Boeing keeps making 748F and has no real competition in that space is a positive factor for it.


On the contrary. LH must be itching to sell them to be converted to freighters.


Why? There also isn't even a conversion program for the 748 yet.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Capital Markets Day - Changes to EW, SN, Update on Fleet Development

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:52 pm

LX is expected to keep the A343s until 26 or 27, hence the current update of the cabin. The XG 332s are leased for 7 years (iirc) and will likely be out then, as they spend half the year in the shop :D

SN just got/is in the process of getting used 333s. Seems likely they fly them for another 10 years. It's a good plane for TATL and (Western) Africa.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:54 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Revelation wrote:

748 must also be getting a very close examination, yet it looks like it didn't get cut during this round of decision making.

The fact that Boeing keeps making 748F and has no real competition in that space is a positive factor for it.


On the contrary. LH must be itching to sell them to be converted to freighters.

It's hard to see any profit in this.

While there are 744 conversion STCs none have been certified for 748.

LH would have to fund the development and certification of such and then find customers wanting frames less efficient than pure 748F.

N14AZ wrote:
keesje wrote:
If no one wants your used aircraft, rest value is zero, you better keep them for their economical life time.

That’s what LH had been doing with its planes, even if someone might have had interest in buying their aircraft. See how long they flew their classic B737s and their first A320s.

:checkmark:

That's why their sale of A388 was a surprise to many.
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Re: Lufthansa Group - retirement of seven long haul types until 2025

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:23 pm

LifelinerOne wrote:
I have it under good authority that while 6 A380s are sold back to Airbus, they are set to continue to be operated by Lufthansa and that Lufthansa is planning to operate 14 A380s after 2025. Sounds like a sale and lease back construction.

That's premature.

Airbus buybacks usually include a sale/leaseback provision. The decision to lease must be made a minimum of 24 months before handover, so if the reports of January 2022 (or later) for the first sale is correct, still some months available to conclude.

However, LH and leasing don't really sit well together, based on past behaviour, so could be both parties putting a brave face on six aircraft keeping the HiFly example company.

LH almost certainly have a buyback agreement on the 748i, so perhaps some developments to unfold there in respect to the 777X order.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Capital Markets Day - Changes to EW, SN, Update on Fleet Development

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:33 pm

Lufthansa a few days ago: "We're discontinuing Eurowings long haul"
Eurowings newsletter today: "New long haul out of MUC and FRA, book now! Mauritius, Barbados, Windhoek..."
What's next?
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Re: Lufthansa Capital Markets Day - Changes to EW, SN, Update on Fleet Development

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:51 pm

LH neversaid that they will discontinue EW longhaul flights. They just said that the EW longhaul flights as well as the SN long-haul flights will be no longer commercially managed by EW but rather by LH itself. So I guess that pricing and steering will move over.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Capital Markets Day - Changes to EW, SN, Update on Fleet Development

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:40 am

fraT wrote:
LH neversaid that they will discontinue EW longhaul flights. They just said that the EW longhaul flights as well as the SN long-haul flights will be no longer commercially managed by EW but rather by LH itself. So I guess that pricing and steering will move over.

Exact wording from Lufthansa Group during the presentation, regarding Eurowings:
Exit long-haul business and focus on short-haul only


On Page 57 of the following presentation:
https://investor-relations.lufthansagro ... ations.pdf

Michael
 
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Re: Lufthansa Capital Markets Day - Changes to EW, SN

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:02 am

stylo777 wrote:
pretty sure, there is a professional team working for Spohr and currently very busy analyzing the economics of the XLR until the very cent.
looking from an "armchair ceo" perspective, I try to comment on the current LH and LHGroup airlines network:

North America:
- barely any benefits for LH; the East Coast is pretty much covered from both hubs (FRA/MUC) in different departure waves and diverse selection of city-pairs (e.g. DTW/PHL-FRA, CLT-MUC)
- in general, there is already a lot of TATL capacity within the group; therefore, I don't think the XLR would fit the LX/OS/SN/EW strategies

South America:
- out of range except for the Northern coast, but hardly any positive business case

Africa:
- theoretically, the XLR should have the range until South Africa; anything in between is therefore "easily" reachable. the current business model is mostly based on tag-on flying with LAD, ADD and NBO being the only terminator services. LOS, ABV, PHC and SSG as well as LX to NBO and DAR are tag-on flights. I see some potential here, but than again the underbelly capacity of the XLR is limited compared to the 333.
- no business case for LX and OS; and SN must be seen with recent developments

Middle East:
- the most perfect place actually to send the XLR; those 321CEO's are flying at the limited to places like TLV, EBL, BEY, AMM and CAI. I'm sure they are taking a hit on cargo capacity thus the recent upgauge to 333 at CAI for instance.
- a bit further the picture looks even more promising: KWI, BAH, JED, DMM, RUH could perfectly accommodate the XLR (range wise); however, I doubt the business potential due to the fact of lacking proper business class seating and the "cultural" preferences of the region. I believe, they would be hesitant to fly on a narrow-body just to connect at FRA...
- resumption of flights to AUH, MCT and DOH could be an interesting case
- I guess, LX is doing fine on DXB-MCT with 333 and OS some years ago left DXB. there is no chance to compete with EK anyways

India:
- PNQ is the strongest market ACTUALLY lacking narrowbody capacity. insolvency of Privatair took a great hit on a niche route served for more than 10 years (lucratively...).
- HYD, CCU and GOI are other potentials, but it really stretches the legs of the XLR on full capacity; on an ideal routing there are the most favorable places for inflight diversion
- not India, but Pakistan: some potential with LHE, ISB, KHI, but politics play a major role in this decision
- again, for LX/OS/SN I personally don't see a positive business case in this region


LOS is a terminator on LH. ABV goes FRA-ABV-PHC-ABV-FRA.

Source: Have flown LH from both LOS and ABV.
I also just dropped off family tonight in ABV airport on LH 595 for schedule ABV-IAH
A 319/320/321,A 330-200/300, A 340-300/500/600, B 737-300/400/500,B 737-700/800,B 747-300/400,B 767-200 ER/300 ER, B 777-200/200 ER,CRJ 200/900/1000,DHC-8-300/Q 300, DC-10, ERJ-195,MD-11
 
fraT
Posts: 1091
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

Re: Lufthansa Capital Markets Day - Changes to EW, SN, Update on Fleet Development

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:49 am

eamondzhang wrote:
fraT wrote:
LH neversaid that they will discontinue EW longhaul flights. They just said that the EW longhaul flights as well as the SN long-haul flights will be no longer commercially managed by EW but rather by LH itself. So I guess that pricing and steering will move over.

Exact wording from Lufthansa Group during the presentation, regarding Eurowings:
Exit long-haul business and focus on short-haul only


On Page 57 of the following presentation:
https://investor-relations.lufthansagro ... ations.pdf

Michael


And if you look at the very next page it says

Transfer commercial responsibility for long-haul business to Network Airlines
 
kimimm19
Posts: 345
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Re: Lufthansa Capital Markets Day - Changes to EW, SN, Update on Fleet Development

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:52 am

LH's problem is they keep interfering with Swiss but also Austrian which is hurting them and will hurt them in the long run.

LX is the cash cow, and them messing around with their fleet to the point now where there is no clear solution in terms of 787 versus a350 and what that means for the 77W and a330.

As for OS, they haven't been investing in OS's fleet in order to HELP make them profitable. A nice new fleet can go a long way.

Let's not even get started on SN... LH is the worst of the large group owners and they will hurt all the other airlines to their benefit in the long run (down to the bottom).
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2316
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Lufthansa Capital Markets Day - Changes to EW, SN

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:59 am

columba wrote:
Buying Condor and using the Condor brand for leisure longhaul flights......



:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :hyper:

I'd LOVE to see some lovely yellow tails around again......
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1067
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Lufthansa Capital Markets Day - Changes to EW, SN, Update on Fleet Development

Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:19 am

kimimm19 wrote:
LH's problem is they keep interfering with Swiss but also Austrian which is hurting them and will hurt them in the long run.

LX is the cash cow, and them messing around with their fleet to the point now where there is no clear solution in terms of 787 versus a350 and what that means for the 77W and a330.

As for OS, they haven't been investing in OS's fleet in order to HELP make them profitable. A nice new fleet can go a long way.

Let's not even get started on SN... LH is the worst of the large group owners and they will hurt all the other airlines to their benefit in the long run (down to the bottom).

Agree that LH group lacks cooperation. It even feels like all group airlines are in direct competition when you book tickets, showing different routings, partner airlines and pricing depending on whose website you use. For example, a search for FRA - SFO on 10. July gives you:

- via swiss.com: only routings via ZRH. Lowest price is 689 €, long haul segment operated by UA or Swiss
- via lufthansa.com: only direct routings, or via MUC (and one via AMS). Lowest price is 690 €, long haul segment operated by UA or Lufthansa
- via austrian.com: all routings from lufthansa.com, plus some more (and cheaper !) options via IAD (and one via YYZ). Lowest price is 661 €. Operated by UA, LH or AC.
- via brusselsairlines.com: only routings via BRU. Lowest price is 1309 €.
- via eurowings.com: can't even select SFO as destination.
 
LH779
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:31 am

Re: Lufthansa Capital Markets Day - Changes to EW, SN, Update on Fleet Development

Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:51 am

mxaxai wrote:
Agree that LH group lacks cooperation. It even feels like all group airlines are in direct competition when you book tickets, showing different routings, partner airlines and pricing depending on whose website you use.

Yeah, it's really stupid that the default search setting is always just Swiss or Lufthansa. If you change it to "Lufthansa Group" you can book FRA-SFO on LH through Swiss. Unfortunately you can only do that in "Advanced Search".
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1223
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Lufthansa Capital Markets Day - Changes to EW, SN, Update on Fleet Development

Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:27 am

fraT wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
fraT wrote:
LH neversaid that they will discontinue EW longhaul flights. They just said that the EW longhaul flights as well as the SN long-haul flights will be no longer commercially managed by EW but rather by LH itself. So I guess that pricing and steering will move over.

Exact wording from Lufthansa Group during the presentation, regarding Eurowings:
Exit long-haul business and focus on short-haul only


On Page 57 of the following presentation:
https://investor-relations.lufthansagro ... ations.pdf

Michael


And if you look at the very next page it says

Transfer commercial responsibility for long-haul business to Network Airlines

Which exactly means that EW is exiting longhaul flights. It doesn't matter if LH or SN or LX or whoever else is taking it over, but EW is not doing that anymore.

I thought LH made that clear enough already.

Michael
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3008
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Lufthansa Capital Markets Day - Changes to EW, SN, Update on Fleet Development

Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:02 am

kimimm19 wrote:
LH's problem is they keep interfering with Swiss but also Austrian which is hurting them and will hurt them in the long run.

LX is the cash cow, and them messing around with their fleet to the point now where there is no clear solution in terms of 787 versus a350 and what that means for the 77W and a330.

As for OS, they haven't been investing in OS's fleet in order to HELP make them profitable. A nice new fleet can go a long way.

Let's not even get started on SN... LH is the worst of the large group owners and they will hurt all the other airlines to their benefit in the long run (down to the bottom).


Indeed!

It's obvious to everybody the others in the group are not allowed to do their thing in the same way as for instance Aer Lingus is allowed to do its own thing within IAG.
Within the Lufthansa Group, everything is focussed on trying to prop up Lufthansa proper as good as it possibly can be, with SWISS being given a bit more freedom because it's such an incredible cash cow, but other than that? Nobody is ever allowed to question Lufthansa's priority over the others!

It's not a coincidence that the Lufthansa Group is called that way rather than some more neutral name like IAG has or that Lufthansa appoint managers coming from Lufthansa at each of the different airlines within the group: all those airlines are to be limited to just doing those things for which there's sufficient demand from their home market: OS or SN can pretty much forget about ever trying to launch routes for which they need to capture part of the connecting flows that exist within Europe, even if they could do it just as good and much cheaper than Lufthansa does it.

If the LHG truly wants to improve their overal group results, they'd better move (part of) their flights over from high cost LH to much lower cost OS and SN for instance.
Lufthansa has long haul routes where 90+% of the passengers are not coming from within the FRA catchment area, but rather fly in from the wider EU first: those long haul flights can leave from pretty much anywhere within the network of course! Ok, LH itself would be much smaller than it is now, but the subsidiaries would take over (most of) these volumes and do the same job much cheaper, so the financial results would be even better for the group. But it's a clear no go, since it's not serving Lufthansa's German interests sadly.

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