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Revelation
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LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:53 pm

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-luft ... SKCN1TP1RP says:

“The new XLR could be used in our network. We look at it. But in my view it is a niche product,” Spohr told investors at Lufthansa’s capital markets day in Frankfurt.

He pointed out that it was not comfortable to spend more than four hours on a flight in a narrow-bodied aircraft, adding: “It will not be a game changer.”

Very interesting take.

Perhaps LH is trying to differentiate itself from LCCs who chose to use XLR on routes greater than four hours?

Perhaps he's got a NMA briefing in his hands and wants to create a big splash like IAG just did by ordering Boeing?
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c933103
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:02 pm

Pretty sure LH Group already have some narrow body flights that last longer than 4 hours, especially for those Privatair operated flights...
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EK77WNH
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:10 pm

Every airliner flying today is a 'niche product.' :roll:
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:12 pm

I have to wonder if "game changer" is really dependent on where your airline's bread and butter is. For a company like B6, with lots to gain from the XLR due to what it can achieve from JFK, BOS, and FLL that they don't already offer, it probably is a game changer for them. For a company like LH, it's probably something of a yawner - been there, done that, already have the equipment for it.
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InsideMan
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:12 pm

Not sure where they would use NMA or even A321XLR as they don't have and never had 757s or 767s (one route being the lone exception). Other than that the only time you ever hear glowing endorsements of a specific aircraft type from and airline CEO is when he just ordered and announced it. Everything else is politics.
 
marcogr12
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:13 pm

Well it's nice to hear for a change someone from the aviation industry who thinks like many pax think,that over 5h on a NB is not ideal..Then again if seen from a commercial and financial point of view for the airline itself,US airlines with their 752 TATL would have a lot to say..I know it;s just in our head but stil i wouldn't be so keen on flying 7-8h with an A321, esp. if one can't afford C class
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Boof02671
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:20 pm

c933103 wrote:
Pretty sure LH Group already have some narrow body flights that last longer than 4 hours, especially for those Privatair operated flights...

It’s not a regular configured 737
It has 20 lie flat seats in business and 66 seats in economy. You can’t compare that to a regular configured airplane.

https://www.privatair.com/aircraft/boei ... breadcrumb
 
max999
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:20 pm

Revelation wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lufthansa-planes-idUSKCN1TP1RP says:

“The new XLR could be used in our network. We look at it. But in my view it is a niche product,” Spohr told investors at Lufthansa’s capital markets day in Frankfurt.

He pointed out that it was not comfortable to spend more than four hours on a flight in a narrow-bodied aircraft, adding: “It will not be a game changer.”

Very interesting take.

Perhaps LH is trying to differentiate itself from LCCs who chose to use XLR on routes greater than four hours?

Perhaps he's got a NMA briefing in his hands and wants to create a big splash like IAG just did by ordering Boeing?


Spohr has been on a crusade against LCCs. He recently whined about the unsustainability of LCCs offering 10 Euro fares. He thinks it's unsustainable only because LHG can't match the profitability of Wizz, Easyjet, and Ryanair.

So I think he is going to criticize anything (whether it's the XLR, pricing structure, etc) that would help LCCs further encroach on LH's long haul routes. He has a right to complain, but I really don't like his anti-competition and monopolist attitudes.
Last edited by max999 on Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Waterbomber2
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:23 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Pretty sure LH Group already have some narrow body flights that last longer than 4 hours, especially for those Privatair operated flights...

It’s not a regular configured 737
It has 20 lie flat seats in business and 66 seats in economy. You can’t compare that to a regular configured airplane.

https://www.privatair.com/aircraft/boei ... breadcrumb


You guys must have missed the news that Privatair ceased operations after it became insolvent...
 
AirwayBill
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:27 pm

Coming from an airline with rather... atypical fleet decisions (346, 748, etc), I wouldn't take his words as a general mantra for the aviation industry.
 
VS11
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:27 pm

1. I guess he needs to meet the millions of pax who fly transcon Bos/nyc-lax/sfo/sea in a NB for more than 4 hours each way.

2. For a dominant carrier like LH, the XLR may not be a game changer as they can pack their planes on trunk routes.

3. Your comfort level as a pax does not have anything to do with your plane being NB or WB. It must be horribly uncomfortable to fly in a private jet as they are NB.
 
Bricktop
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:27 pm

I have flown TATL 8 hours with all the US3 on a B757 in Y many times with no problems. But I'd have no trouble in at least trying say TAP from EWR-LIS, or EI from EWR-DUB. It's all about the pitch for me, and I am not sure about going on an LCC for that reason. Maybe LH doesn't see the XLR doing it for their required pitch for where they want to go? We shouldn't just limit our view to TATL even though that's the sexy market. Maybe going East or South?
 
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:37 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
I have to wonder if "game changer" is really dependent on where your airline's bread and butter is. For a company like B6, with lots to gain from the XLR due to what it can achieve from JFK, BOS, and FLL that they don't already offer, it probably is a game changer for them. For a company like LH, it's probably something of a yawner - been there, done that, already have the equipment for it.

Indeed, I think it is relevant to what LH's bread and butter is versus what B6's bread and butter may become if its TATL plans work out, or others like Norwegian or Wizz who probably do want to use XLR on long haul routes now or in the future.

AirwayBill wrote:
Coming from an airline with rather... atypical fleet decisions (346, 748, etc), I wouldn't take his words as a general mantra for the aviation industry.

Sure, but we have to admit LH Group is the kind of blue chip customer both A and B would love to get orders from.
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Boof02671
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:38 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Pretty sure LH Group already have some narrow body flights that last longer than 4 hours, especially for those Privatair operated flights...

It’s not a regular configured 737
It has 20 lie flat seats in business and 66 seats in economy. You can’t compare that to a regular configured airplane.

https://www.privatair.com/aircraft/boei ... breadcrumb


You guys must have missed the news that Privatair ceased operations after it became insolvent...

Odd their website is still active.
 
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:39 pm

It's my understanding that at least some operators are planning to configure the XLR for long haul with the same type of seats as the widebodies.

JetBlue's A321 Transcontinental configured planes are comfortable aren't they?

The only difference would be how much "room" is around you. And maybe the air quality and sound proofing of new widebodies like A350 / 787.
 
fraT
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:41 pm

max999 wrote:

Spohr has been on a crusade against LCCs. He recently whined about the unsustainability of LCCs offering 10 Euro fares. He thinks it's unsustainable only because LHG can't match the profitability of Wizz, Easyjet, and Ryanair.

So I think he is going to criticize anything (whether it's the XLR, pricing structure, etc) that would help LCCs further encroach on LH's long haul routes. He has a right to complain, but I really don't like his anti-competition and monopolist attitudes.


If you would have listened to his speech at the investor conference today, you would have noticed that Spohr was very positive in regards to EasyJet and even Ryanair.
A crusade definitely sounds different....
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:42 pm

I am sure that the A321 is going to dominate the NB market. Has to be.
 
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:42 pm

Bricktop wrote:
It's all about the pitch for me, and I am not sure about going on an LCC for that reason.


Don't forget seat width, too. Both pitch and width make for a comfortable, or uncomfortable flight. That's why the 777, 787, 737 are no fun no matter the pitch when you have 16-17" narrow seats rubbing shoulders with your neighbors.
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:50 pm

It may not be a 'game changer'...but being the only modern, higher capacity, longer-ranged, narrowbody game in town currently must have its advantages. Bargaining tactic :?:
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:54 pm

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1425571
UA seems not interested in the XLR as well ,they need bigger planes tu fill the MOM needs
 
Checklist787
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:56 pm

Devilfish wrote:
It may not be a 'game changer'...but being the only modern, higher capacity, longer-ranged, narrowbody game in town currently must have its advantages. Bargaining tactic :?:


the only modern ? :roll:
 
dmstorm22
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:10 pm

Rifitto wrote:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1425571
UA seems not interested in the XLR as well ,they need bigger planes tu fill the MOM needs


Well, if you take the view that the XLR can replace some of the MOM need that UA has, then they have a clear reason to be interested in the XLR.

LH seemingly does not - other than being a longer range like-for-like replacement, or downguage from the A333 as their smallest NB
 
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:19 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
the only modern ? :roll:

Given that the only narrowbody with near similar characteristics is the jurassic 757...then yes. And no...the 737-10 does not qualify.
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:23 pm

For LH, how many TATL cities are even available out of Germany with the economics to support an A-321XLR vs an A-332? I see it more of a plane they could use East & South of Germany, but again how many new markets or existing markets would benefit from this aircraft enough to buy a sub-fleet for LH? Maybe one of the LH owned partner carriers?
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:23 pm

Revelation wrote:

Perhaps he's got a NMA briefing in his hands and wants to create a big splash like IAG just did by ordering Boeing?


Looking at their current drop in profits I don't think LH is ordering a lot of new types of aircraft anytime soon. They will stick with existing models.



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RalXWB
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:24 pm

And He says this while having hundreds of Airbus NBs including NEOs in his fleet. He just wants to have a better price. #bargaining
 
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:33 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
Rifitto wrote:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1425571
UA seems not interested in the XLR as well ,they need bigger planes tu fill the MOM needs


Well, if you take the view that the XLR can replace some of the MOM need that UA has, then they have a clear reason to be interested in the XLR.

LH seemingly does not - other than being a longer range like-for-like replacement, or downguage from the A333 as their smallest NB


If the XLR could replace some MOM need as you mentioned ,they would have already ordered some A21N or LRs ,
it has the same capacity as the XLR ,and UA doesn't need the extra range of the latter.
instead they ordered the B737-10 as B752 replacement

In the other hand They need more capacity to replace the 73 B753/763/764
 
Bricktop
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:38 pm

bgm wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
It's all about the pitch for me, and I am not sure about going on an LCC for that reason.


Don't forget seat width, too. Both pitch and width make for a comfortable, or uncomfortable flight. That's why the 777, 787, 737 are no fun no matter the pitch when you have 16-17" narrow seats rubbing shoulders with your neighbors.

I’ve done 9AB 787 TATL many times too. I.e. I wasn’t put off. ;) “Full service” and LCC both. Not as good as a B767 I admit.
 
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:39 pm

RalXWB wrote:
And He says this while having hundreds of Airbus NBs including NEOs in his fleet. He just wants to have a better price. #bargaining

Like BA? :spin:
 
CHRISBA35X
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:41 pm

Thing is its a game changer for LH as it will allow them to do BER, HAM and DUS transatlantic with a right-sized aircraft. It is pretty compelling for them. It will also allow them to lift more cargo and bags than their A321 and open up new West Africa routes that their A333 is too big for. It does make a lot of sense for them I think.
 
RalXWB
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:41 pm

Or they Stick with one supplier... Like UA? :spin:
 
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:43 pm

RWA380 wrote:
For LH, how many TATL cities are even available out of Germany with the economics to support an A-321XLR vs an A-332? I see it more of a plane they could use East & South of Germany, but again how many new markets or existing markets would benefit from this aircraft enough to buy a sub-fleet for LH? Maybe one of the LH owned partner carriers?


I think that the issue with the LR and XLR for Lufthansa is more to do with geography than anything. From Munich or Frankfurt you can't do nearly as many transatlantic routes with the LR and XLR's range than if your hub was at London, Dublin or Paris.

The flip side of this is that more of Middle East and India is reachable, but they're both much lower yielding.

For this reason I'd expect that if LH Group does order XLRs, they'd be placed with Brussels Airlines in Brussels or Eurowings in Dusseldorf.
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airbazar
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:46 pm

What else is he going to say? LH's hubs in the center of Europe make it so LH's narrowbody fleet has really short segments so it's easy for him to say nonsense stuff like "more than 4 hours in a narrowbody is too much". On top of that his hub have protection. If he faced long haul LCC competition from airlines like DY at airports like FRA or MUC and he could no longer fill A330's I think you'd see his opinion change real quick. But I think a big reason is LH is one airline that relies heavily on cargo and the A321 in any form is bad for that.
Last edited by airbazar on Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
LDRA
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:47 pm

Let's see, LH competitors will use XLR to get into LH stronghold? Hence the PR mission to trash long range narrow body?
 
T4thH
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:55 pm

And now, I have to search the news, where someone of Airbus said, that LH/LH Group were one of the Airlines, who have asked/requested first, that the A321LR had not enough range, and had asked Airbus for more?


It was around end of last year (and in German).

I will have to see, if I will find it (I fear not any more).
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:00 pm

Rifitto wrote:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1425571
UA seems not interested in the XLR as well ,they need bigger planes tu fill the MOM needs


Well it's amazing how the frequency over aircraft size crowd can change their mind when it's inconvenient...

The A380 was too big, because several B787's can do the job better and with higher revenues.
So now surely, any missions up to 4000nm would be done better by an A321XLR instead of a B787?

A 6-abreast A321XLR beats a 9-abreast B787 in comfort any day.

The never ending bias on these forums is tiring.
I wonder if it's fanboyism or straight corporate PR trolling.

The old guard is terrified.
The A321XLR allows even the smallest operators to start competing on 10 hour flights.

The reality is that Airbus is not only killing the NMA, they are also going to start competing against their A330neo which has historically been used on these kind of stage lengths.
We'll see how this plays out.
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
NYCVIE
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:02 pm

Hmm was LH not JUST flying FRA-PNQ with a Euro configured A319?
 
mchei
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:02 pm

Let’s have a look at LH’s (and I mean the airline itself, not the group) network:
many many flights happen in Europe in the range of below 2 hours, and then there’re a couple more above two hours and some even above three hours. Those happen with the 320 family planes.
Basically all flights longer than 2 hours happen from their hubs, Frankfurt and Munich. Everything is concentrated around this. All their WB aircrafts are in FRA or MUC and it’s pretty easy to get there because they focus on bringing you there. It’s a strict hub strategy. And then they choose whether it’s a 330, 744, 748 or 350.
If they really wanted to change this, they also would at least need to review their hub strategy. So if they wanted to go TATL from
Hamburg, this would also have an impact on the flights from Frankfurt or Munich.
My two cents as a passenger.
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ScottB
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:05 pm

Revelation wrote:
Very interesting take.

Perhaps LH is trying to differentiate itself from LCCs who chose to use XLR on routes greater than four hours?

Perhaps he's got a NMA briefing in his hands and wants to create a big splash like IAG just did by ordering Boeing?


I think the bigger point is that the A321XLR isn't all that useful for LH in transatlantic markets given the location of most of their hubs in Central Europe. In spite of the hype from certain Airbus aficionados who seem to think the A321XLR will be able to consistently fly routes like SYD-LHR non-stop the wrong way against the wind, the A321XLR probably won't be able to reliably make it from FRA any farther than IAD. That really doesn't enable many new markets for them which are too small for A330 -- maybe BDL, BWI, CLE, and PIT. They could do more from BRU, but I doubt they want to compete all that strongly with their own hubs from a market with lower yields and limited demand to the U.S.
 
marcogr12
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:23 pm

Wouldnt the A321XLR be suitable for places in Asia,India,Africa, CIS countries and russian cities further into Russia without problem in the winter from MUC/FRA hubs?Sth like TK does with their B737s and A320s?
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T4thH
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:29 pm

T4thH wrote:
And now, I have to search the news, where someone of Airbus said, that LH/LH Group were one of the Airlines, who have asked/requested first, that the A321LR had not enough range, and had asked Airbus for more?


It was around end of last year (and in German).

I will have to see, if I will find it (I fear not any more).


And yes, I was correct, here it is.
https://www.aero.de/news-30363/Lufthansa-fuehlt-bei-Airbus-A321XLR-vor.html

"Kunden wie Aer Lingus sind mit der A321LR sehr glücklich", sagte Airbus Marketingdirektor Franck Navallon "FlightGlobal" in Hamburg. "Lufthansa, die etwas tiefer in Europa liegt, signalisiert uns, dass sie gerne etwas mehr (Reichweite, Red.) hätte."


So in short, Lufthansa, wo are sitting deeper in Europe, have asked Airbus for more range.
Original source seems to have been Flight Global.
 
Checklist787
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:45 pm

Devilfish wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
the only modern ? :roll:

Given that the only narrowbody with near similar characteristics is the jurassic 757...then yes. And no...the 737-10 does not qualify.


The new cockpit of the 737MAX, the aerodynamics, the new tail cone and the new wing tips would be less advanced than the old cockpit and wingtip dating from the time of the 737NG fited at A320neo ? :roll:
Last edited by Checklist787 on Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Checklist787
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:57 pm

Bricktop wrote:
bgm wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
It's all about the pitch for me, and I am not sure about going on an LCC for that reason.


Don't forget seat width, too. Both pitch and width make for a comfortable, or uncomfortable flight. That's why the 777, 787, 737 are no fun no matter the pitch when you have 16-17" narrow seats rubbing shoulders with your neighbors.

I’ve done 9AB 787 TATL many times too. I.e. I wasn’t put off. ;) “Full service” and LCC both. Not as good as a B767 I admit.


No aircraft does as good as the 767. It's not just the 787 ... :roll:
 
T4thH
Posts: 151
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:30 pm

Rifitto wrote:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1425571

UA seems not interested in the XLR as well ,they need bigger planes tu fill the MOM needs

There I have now my doubts to this "story". If I just verify the UA fleet and the UA orders...
They are flying A320 ceo and A319 ceo and seems to be happy with them. They have even bought additional used A320 ceo and A319 ceo from other airlines, most of them still in delivery.
They are not flying the A321 ceo or neo, they have till now neither ordered any A320 neo family members (especially no A321neo).

Instead they have ordered B737 Max, but no MAX 7 or 8, instead "only" 190 Max 9 and Max 10 together. And the Max 10 will replace the B757-200 of the existing UA fleet.

So UA has decided against the A321 and the A320 neo family (especially the A321 neo), and instead have ordered the A321 neo competitors Max 9 and 10.

The A321 Xlr is a niche jet; seems every airline, who has already ordered the A321 neo, is willed to buy few (something around 10 to 15% of the A321neo fleet) of them or to convert some of the A321 neo order. If you break down all of the 249 A321 Xlr orders + Loi e.g. till now to single airlines (even the 36 bird Qantas order is for 2 airlines), whith exception of AA have ordered less than 20/airline and AA seems to have ordered them as B757-200 replacement. There were 20 UFO orders, even These were two orders from two different, one order of 14 A321 Xlr new and the other a conversion of an existing order.
No one has ordered the A321 Xlr till now, if not already ordered the A321 neo earlier; regarding low numbers needed of the A321 Xlr/airline, the high maintenace costs for these few orphan birds in a fleet would eat all benefits.

UA has had decided pro B737 Max 9 and 10 and against the A321 and A321 Neo, now they are committed and not any more able to buy the A321 Xlr.
Last edited by T4thH on Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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RWA380
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:41 pm

zkojq wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
For LH, how many TATL cities are even available out of Germany with the economics to support an A-321XLR vs an A-332? I see it more of a plane they could use East & South of Germany, but again how many new markets or existing markets would benefit from this aircraft enough to buy a sub-fleet for LH? Maybe one of the LH owned partner carriers?


I think that the issue with the LR and XLR for Lufthansa is more to do with geography than anything. From Munich or Frankfurt you can't do nearly as many transatlantic routes with the LR and XLR's range than if your hub was at London, Dublin or Paris.

The flip side of this is that more of Middle East and India is reachable, but they're both much lower yielding.

For this reason I'd expect that if LH Group does order XLRs, they'd be placed with Brussels Airlines in Brussels or Eurowings in Dusseldorf.


Thank you for that, it confirms what I was thinking. For Germany's geographic location the XLR is not a game changer as was indicated. I agree with you M.E. & India don't warrant this new aircraft, unless they expand to un-served from Europe cities, but as you said low yielding India is not worthwhile, making Africa the only market to expand into cities large enough to support the XL or XLR's capacity.

I think Brussels or Eurowings could make good use of them.
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airzona11
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:53 pm

RWA380 wrote:
For LH, how many TATL cities are even available out of Germany with the economics to support an A-321XLR vs an A-332? I see it more of a plane they could use East & South of Germany, but again how many new markets or existing markets would benefit from this aircraft enough to buy a sub-fleet for LH? Maybe one of the LH owned partner carriers?


Great point. LH is a full-service airline, so the XLR on those long flights probably has a more premium config, so less dense, making ROI that LH needs more difficult. Then you come full circle, back to the widebodies. I think it is telling that today the A333 is the smallest widebody that they operate. Granted the LH Group has 763/A332s but in very small numbers.
 
9Patch
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:28 am

bgm wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
It's all about the pitch for me, and I am not sure about going on an LCC for that reason.

Don't forget seat width, too. Both pitch and width make for a comfortable, or uncomfortable flight. That's why the 777, 787, 737 are no fun no matter the pitch when you have 16-17" narrow seats rubbing shoulders with your neighbors.

16-17" narrow seats?
Which airlines have anything under 17" on the 777, 787, 737?
 
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Devilfish
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:48 am

Checklist787 wrote:
The new cockpit of the 737MAX, the aerodynamics, the new tail cone and the new wing tips would be less advanced than the old cockpit and wingtip dating from the time of the 737NG fited at A320neo ? :roll:

Note that it was a combination of capabilities in the original post you quoted. Are all those present at the same time in any one of the narrowbody aircraft you allude to?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
9Patch
Posts: 268
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:54 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Rifitto wrote:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1425571
UA seems not interested in the XLR as well ,they need bigger planes tu fill the MOM needs


Well it's amazing how the frequency over aircraft size crowd can change their mind when it's inconvenient...

The A380 was too big, because several B787's can do the job better and with higher revenues.
So now surely, any missions up to 4000nm would be done better by an A321XLR instead of a B787?

A 6-abreast A321XLR beats a 9-abreast B787 in comfort any day.

The never ending bias on these forums is tiring.
I wonder if it's fanboyism or straight corporate PR trolling.

The old guard is terrified.
The A321XLR allows even the smallest operators to start competing on 10 hour flights.

The reality is that Airbus is not only killing the NMA, they are also going to start competing against their A330neo which has historically been used on these kind of stage lengths.
We'll see how this plays out.

Also amazing how you can change your mind and jump on the fragmentation/frequency train when convenient.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:07 am

I cannot wait until JetBlue is flying these TATL.

mchei wrote:
Let’s have a look at LH’s (and I mean the airline itself, not the group) network:
many many flights happen in Europe in the range of below 2 hours, and then there’re a couple more above two hours and some even above three hours. Those happen with the 320 family planes.
Basically all flights longer than 2 hours happen from their hubs, Frankfurt and Munich. Everything is concentrated around this. All their WB aircrafts are in FRA or MUC and it’s pretty easy to get there because they focus on bringing you there. It’s a strict hub strategy. And then they choose whether it’s a 330, 744, 748 or 350.
If they really wanted to change this, they also would at least need to review their hub strategy. So if they wanted to go TATL from
Hamburg, this would also have an impact on the flights from Frankfurt or Munich.
My two cents as a passenger.

You have a great point. LH is focused on getting people and cargo through FRA and MUC. If the xLR range isn't enough from those hubs, then why admit the competition might fragment the market?

Lightsaber
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