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Conti764
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:23 pm

I'd say the A321XLR could play a role with at least one LH company: Brussels Airlines.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:23 pm

CARST wrote:
The only real advantage for the A321LR/XLR would be, if that hypothetical airline would be one of the few airlines aiming to fly their new aircraft on routes as long as the 757 can do at maximum endurance. And that won't be many. Thus your comment that the 737-10 does not qualify is void...

But that's precisely the premise of my original post...so the point stands.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Absynth
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:36 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
The new cockpit of the 737MAX, the aerodynamics, the new tail cone and the new wing tips would be less advanced than the old cockpit and wingtip dating from the time of the 737NG fited at A320neo ? :roll:


LOL someone missed 6 months of aviation news related to the MAX flight control systems.

Who needs fly by wire and sensor redundancy? Overkill. That trim wheel is state of the art tech! The next step in revolutionising the MAX will be a 3d printed wheel. It will be 10% lighter and will require over 15% less physical force to operate.

Spohr has already been briefed. His conclusion: this is a game-changer.
Last edited by Absynth on Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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OA940
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:42 pm

Nice joke. If the XLR isn't a game changer neither was the 757. Also when you pitch your Economy class at the same pitch as LCCs of course 4h flights aren't gonna be very comfortable (personally I still have no problem but hey I can see how taller people most certainly do). Also when the A320 family has the same or more seat width as widebodies it's all up to the airline to make it comfortable. So the whole narrowbodies on long flights suck arguement is really invalid.
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:55 pm

tphuang wrote:
So I could see DL adding NMA if they can get a business class cabin added in there that they can really promote.

I think this is why DL's CEO offered to be the launch customer for NMA, time will tell if I am right on that.

Re: UA, we have a recent thread ( viewtopic.php?t=1420185 ) on their options.

I think UA's problem is that they are committed to big spends already:

Via Fleets Analyzer, United has the following aircraft on order:
o 45 A350-900s
o 45 737 Max 9s
o 100 737-10s
o 4 777-300ERs
o 13 787-9s
o 7 787-10s

Ref: https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... s-a321xlr/

... and they aren't killing it on the profit side, to be charitable.

It would not surprise me, though, if UA had a handshake agreement to buy NMA once it is officially on order, since a lot of the above spend will be water under the bridge by the time they could get NMAs.
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Absynth
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:54 pm

First rule when someone states "it's not a game-changer"? Chances are that's exactly what it is.
 
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keesje
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:03 am

Revelation wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lufthansa-planes-idUSKCN1TP1RP says:

“The new XLR could be used in our network. We look at it. But in my view it is a niche product,” Spohr told investors at Lufthansa’s capital markets day in Frankfurt.

He pointed out that it was not comfortable to spend more than four hours on a flight in a narrow-bodied aircraft, adding: “It will not be a game changer.”

Very interesting take.

Perhaps LH is trying to differentiate itself from LCCs who chose to use XLR on routes greater than four hours?

Perhaps he's got a NMA briefing in his hands and wants to create a big splash like IAG just did by ordering Boeing?



It's in the photo description in the link that this was said May 7, 2019. Way before the PAris Airshow orders. He probably wouldn't say it today.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:12 am

keesje wrote:
Revelation wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lufthansa-planes-idUSKCN1TP1RP says:

“The new XLR could be used in our network. We look at it. But in my view it is a niche product,” Spohr told investors at Lufthansa’s capital markets day in Frankfurt.

He pointed out that it was not comfortable to spend more than four hours on a flight in a narrow-bodied aircraft, adding: “It will not be a game changer.”

Very interesting take.

Perhaps LH is trying to differentiate itself from LCCs who chose to use XLR on routes greater than four hours?

Perhaps he's got a NMA briefing in his hands and wants to create a big splash like IAG just did by ordering Boeing?

It's in the photo description in the link that this was said May 7, 2019. Way before the PAris Airshow orders. He probably wouldn't say it today.

Nope, the photo was taken "at the company's annual shareholder meeting in Bonn, Germany, May 7, 2019", the quote was from "Lufthansa’s capital markets day in Frankfurt" which was yesterday, so he definitely said it after PAS.

Seems like you needed to find a way to undermine the statement, but failed.
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keesje
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:29 am

Revelation wrote:
keesje wrote:
Revelation wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lufthansa-planes-idUSKCN1TP1RP says:


Very interesting take.

Perhaps LH is trying to differentiate itself from LCCs who chose to use XLR on routes greater than four hours?

Perhaps he's got a NMA briefing in his hands and wants to create a big splash like IAG just did by ordering Boeing?

It's in the photo description in the link that this was said May 7, 2019. Way before the PAris Airshow orders. He probably wouldn't say it today.

Nope, the photo was taken "at the company's annual shareholder meeting in Bonn, Germany, May 7, 2019", the quote was from "Lufthansa’s capital markets day in Frankfurt" which was yesterday, so he definitely said it after PAS.

Seems like you needed to find a way to undermine the statement, but failed.


You are right about the date, but I think Spor undermined his own statement on comfort. Long haul comfort is more about a quiet spacey seat than the size of the aircraft.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
SaudiClipper80
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:11 am

I have to disagree about a narrow-body aircraft not being comfortable after approximately 4 hours.I was an economy class passenger on Pan Am DC 8 services to Lisbon and Shannon from New York, Finnair's DC8 service to Helsinki and TWA 707 service to Milan among others. All of them gave a service superior to anything I can get on a wide body. It is not the dimensions of the aircraft but the dimensions of the seat and the amount of legroom, as well as the on board service that determines the experience.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:36 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
I am sure that the A321 is going to dominate the NB market. Has to be.


A320: $101.00m x 4,143 = $418,443
A321: $118.30m x 2,327 = $275,284

I could see the A321 surpassing A320 as Airbus's dominant revenue source someday.
 
rigo
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:43 am

Conti764 wrote:
I'd say the A321XLR could play a role with at least one LH company: Brussels Airlines.


You mean it has enough range to fly to the middle of the Atlantic, then make a U turn and go back to Brussels? :D
 
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:54 am

rigo wrote:
Conti764 wrote:
I'd say the A321XLR could play a role with at least one LH company: Brussels Airlines.


You mean it has enough range to fly to the middle of the Atlantic, then make a U turn and go back to Brussels? :D

In case they forget to register a frame with FAA again :lol:
 
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:57 am

I think we'll definitely see the XLR in the Lufthansa group at some point, but I doubt it'll be in some larger fashion that some here are fantasizing about. Certainly not going to open up transatlantic from HAM or TXL as some here are dreaming.
 
Jomar777
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:38 am

Lufthansa never flew the B757 also.
I guess that, for them, they simply never had the type of route where a NB LH aircraft would fit well like other airlines as BA, the US3, etc. So, for them, understandably, it is not something they would look into neither be a game changer for them.
Does not means other airlines would not have different views.
Interestingly enough, neither of the other majour brands in the group (Austrian, Swiss (even as Swissair) and Brussels Airlines (even as SABENA) ever flew LH NB aircrafts too
 
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N14AZ
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:50 am

aviationaware wrote:
I think we'll definitely see the XLR in the Lufthansa group at some point, but I doubt it'll be in some larger fashion that some here are fantasizing about. Certainly not going to open up transatlantic from HAM or TXL as some here are dreaming.

I agree with HAM and TXL unless they change their business model significantly.

I could imagine some destinations in India or in the Caucasus region. Brussels Airlines on routes to Africa where the demand does not support the allocation of an A330...
 
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:04 am

keesje wrote:
You are right about the date, but I think Spor undermined his own statement on comfort. Long haul comfort is more about a quiet spacey seat than the size of the aircraft.

You and others are right about the idea that comfort is subjective, but in this case the one being subjective is the Chairman and CEO of Lufthansa. His lack of enthusiasm for A321XLR and A330neo too must be a disappointment for Airbus, while the purchase of 777X and the opportunity for NMA must be encouraging for Boeing. All this from a guy who still holds an A320 pilot's license!
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keesje
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:24 am

aviationaware wrote:
I think we'll definitely see the XLR in the Lufthansa group at some point, but I doubt it'll be in some larger fashion that some here are fantasizing about. Certainly not going to open up transatlantic from HAM or TXL as some here are dreaming.


I see AA, JetBlue, maybe others flying in XLR's & w'll see if LH's strategy will be fine tuned or nothing will change.

Berlin has a large catchment area. Berlin it self has more than 30 million overnight stays by visitors per year of which 7.7 million overnight stays for conferences and conventions and institutions like the government.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
airbazar
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:28 am

Jomar777 wrote:
Lufthansa never flew the B757 also.

Sorry but this argument about LH never operating the 757 misses the fact that they chose the A321 in favor of the 757, from the very beginning. And why? Because they don't need the range. It also ignores the fact that when the 757 was launched hardly anyone was flying them on long haul routes, and certainly not on TATL routes save for a few charter airlines with a refueling stop somewhere along the way. Lets not look at the history of the 757 through today's lenses because it makes absolutely no sense.
 
fraT
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:02 pm

keesje wrote:

I see AA, JetBlue, maybe others flying in XLR's & w'll see if LH's strategy will be fine tuned or nothing will change.

Berlin has a large catchment area. Berlin it self has more than 30 million overnight stays by visitors per year of which 7.7 million overnight stays for conferences and conventions and institutions like the government.


The problem is that Berlin itself and even more the region has very few company headquarters so it is lacking of corporate travel. The money is made in the FRA/MUC/DUS/HAM regions.
I doubt that anybody can make money with Economy Class passengers without a decent Biz Class mix. We all remember what happened to Primera and their approach.
 
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:13 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
Interestingly enough, neither of the other majour brands in the group (Austrian, Swiss (even as Swissair) and Brussels Airlines (even as SABENA) ever flew LH NB aircrafts too

it's an veeeeeery long stretch, but DE/Condor (once partly owned by LH) still flies the 753 ;)
 
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:20 pm

fraT wrote:
keesje wrote:

I see AA, JetBlue, maybe others flying in XLR's & w'll see if LH's strategy will be fine tuned or nothing will change.

Berlin has a large catchment area. Berlin it self has more than 30 million overnight stays by visitors per year of which 7.7 million overnight stays for conferences and conventions and institutions like the government.


The problem is that Berlin itself and even more the region has very few company headquarters so it is lacking of corporate travel. The money is made in the FRA/MUC/DUS/HAM regions.
I doubt that anybody can make money with Economy Class passengers without a decent Biz Class mix. We all remember what happened to Primera and their approach.


The Berlin Airports had 35 Millions last year are growing, BER will be openend in a few years and new lean aircraft are available that easily cross the Atlantic. Not everything stays the same. Lufthansa has a vested interest to play down Berlin intercontinental flight requirements. LH does 18 flights a day FRA-BER & MUN-BER 12, but also e.g. KLM, they do 7 flights a day from Berlin & 5 from Hamburg pulling in long haul passengers from the Berlin catchment area. But: changes are upcoming.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:47 pm

keesje wrote:
fraT wrote:
The problem is that Berlin itself and even more the region has very few company headquarters so it is lacking of corporate travel. The money is made in the FRA/MUC/DUS/HAM regions.
I doubt that anybody can make money with Economy Class passengers without a decent Biz Class mix. We all remember what happened to Primera and their approach.


The Berlin Airports had 35 Millions last year are growing, BER will be openend in a few years and new lean aircraft are available that easily cross the Atlantic. Not everything stays the same. Lufthansa has a vested interest to play down Berlin intercontinental flight requirements. LH does 18 flights a day FRA-BER & MUN-BER 12, but also e.g. KLM, they do 7 flights a day from Berlin & 5 from Hamburg pulling in long haul passengers from the Berlin catchment area. But: changes are upcoming.

You were doing fine till you typed "BER will be openend in a few years"! :biggrin:
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LH982
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:48 pm

LH's nightmare would be JetBlue launching Mint service to BER, HAM, DUS and STR. There are a lot of people who do not love connecting via FRA and MUC, and they will switch if the product is right.
 
airbazar
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:59 pm

LH982 wrote:
LH's nightmare would be JetBlue launching Mint service to BER, HAM, DUS and STR. There are a lot of people who do not love connecting via FRA and MUC, and they will switch if the product is right.

If they don't like connecting in FRA/MUC they're in for a rude awakening having to connect in BOS/JFK :D
Those other cities are better served by UA from EWR or ORD than LH. UA already flies EWR-TXL.
 
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keesje
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
keesje wrote:
fraT wrote:
The problem is that Berlin itself and even more the region has very few company headquarters so it is lacking of corporate travel. The money is made in the FRA/MUC/DUS/HAM regions.
I doubt that anybody can make money with Economy Class passengers without a decent Biz Class mix. We all remember what happened to Primera and their approach.


The Berlin Airports had 35 Millions last year are growing, BER will be openend in a few years and new lean aircraft are available that easily cross the Atlantic. Not everything stays the same. Lufthansa has a vested interest to play down Berlin intercontinental flight requirements. LH does 18 flights a day FRA-BER & MUN-BER 12, but also e.g. KLM, they do 7 flights a day from Berlin & 5 from Hamburg pulling in long haul passengers from the Berlin catchment area. But: changes are upcoming.

You were doing fine till you typed "BER will be openend in a few years"! :biggrin:


I said yearS for a reason..
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airlines-allocated-space-at-berlins-new-airport-458052/
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incitatus
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:25 pm

LH has a hold on the German/Swiss corporate travel market through strong hubs in Zurich, Frankfurt and Munich. Here is how the game changes for them: US carriers will pick apart the transatlantic demand from all other secondary markets that are today loyal to LH, using narrowbodies nonstop to the US: Berlin, Hamburg, Hanover, Dusseldorf, Stuttgart, Basel, Geneva.
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LH982
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:00 pm

airbazar wrote:
LH982 wrote:
LH's nightmare would be JetBlue launching Mint service to BER, HAM, DUS and STR. There are a lot of people who do not love connecting via FRA and MUC, and they will switch if the product is right.

If they don't like connecting in FRA/MUC they're in for a rude awakening having to connect in BOS/JFK :D
Those other cities are better served by UA from EWR or ORD than LH. UA already flies EWR-TXL.


At the moment they don't have much choice, and that's exactly the way LH would like to keep it.

MUC is good for connecting, FRA is no better than many of the US hubs. It would also be desirable to have a presence from a carrier that isn't in bed with LH.
 
lostsound
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:21 pm

No game changer for LH maybe, but an empty statement when it comes to other airlines. IMHO, he just wants a good deal on them...
Also BS on nobody wants to spend 4+ hours on a narrow-body given mostly narrow-bodies serve East Coast to West Coast in the USA.
If the price is right, people don't care how many aisles the plane has.
 
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:32 pm

LH982 wrote:
LH's nightmare would be JetBlue launching Mint service to BER, HAM, DUS and STR. There are a lot of people who do not love connecting via FRA and MUC, and they will switch if the product is right.

It's kind of similar in a way to how many people in UK cities not named London find it easier to connect in AMS rather than LON, yet this does not seem to harm BA much.

People complained a lot when BA cut back a lot of services to various points in the UK.

This is when BA got the nickname "London Airways".

In the end it seems BA is healthier now than when it tried to run aircraft all around the UK and focused on making LON profitable.

airbazar wrote:
LH982 wrote:
LH's nightmare would be JetBlue launching Mint service to BER, HAM, DUS and STR. There are a lot of people who do not love connecting via FRA and MUC, and they will switch if the product is right.

If they don't like connecting in FRA/MUC they're in for a rude awakening having to connect in BOS/JFK :D
Those other cities are better served by UA from EWR or ORD than LH. UA already flies EWR-TXL.

I think the point is they want to fly BER-BOS not BER-FRA-BOS or BER-MUC-BOS.
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EMB170
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:46 pm

RWA380 wrote:
For LH, how many TATL cities are even available out of Germany with the economics to support an A-321XLR vs an A-332? I see it more of a plane they could use East & South of Germany, but again how many new markets or existing markets would benefit from this aircraft enough to buy a sub-fleet for LH? Maybe one of the LH owned partner carriers?


:checkmark: This. Given the geographic position of Germany and German-speaking LH group airlines such as LX and OS (compared to France, Portugal, Spain, the UK, Scandinavia, Ireland), it will be tougher for LH/LX/OS to make A321s work across the Atlantic than it would for say, BA or AF or TP, SK, or EI. Moreover, given the constraints on FRA, it's tough for LH to add new markets on top of what they already have. That said, LH *could* look at the A321XLR for flights to the northeast, such as BDL, BWI, or PIT, assuming they could find the slots to run them.

Alternatively, they could try to work more with UA and AC on the JV and use the A321XLR to offer services into EWR, IAD, YYZ, YUL, and possibly even YHZ from other German cities such as HAM, DUS, HAJ, STR, or even TXL, if demand warranted.
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
tphuang
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:17 pm

LH982 wrote:
LH's nightmare would be JetBlue launching Mint service to BER, HAM, DUS and STR. There are a lot of people who do not love connecting via FRA and MUC, and they will switch if the product is right.

Lh has already said they are glad that JetBlue doesn't have a plane that could reach them. That was before xlr, but it's too late now.

I would say all of this makes them even less likely to buy a321xlr on their main line. They could never hope to compete with JetBlue's costs. So they need to find a superior product that can get like 50% premium or something like that.

For that, I am not sure nma will be able to achieve. They would need to continue to use larger wide-bodies to achieve.

Will be interesting to see. A321xlr is a dream aircraft for low cost operators, especially ones that already operated a321. I don't know if it makes sense for carriers who in the past have relied on really spacious layout and ground amenities to get higher paying j fares. It would be a disaster if they can't get a noticeable premium.

I could see lh themselves not getting xlr, but someone in the group do get it.
 
airbazar
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:36 pm

Revelation wrote:
It's kind of similar in a way to how many people in UK cities not named London find it easier to connect in AMS rather than LON, yet this does not seem to harm BA much.

But IMO BA did that in order to maximize the limitations of LHR. They had to take a hard look and eliminate the less profitable (not necessarily unprofitable), routes because slots at LHR are not unlimited. LH still very much connects all major German cities to FRA/MUC with multiple daily flights. If MUC doesn't get a 3rd runway they may have to start cutting routes there tho.

Revelation wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Those other cities are better served by UA from EWR or ORD than LH. UA already flies EWR-TXL.

I think the point is they want to fly BER-BOS not BER-FRA-BOS or BER-MUC-BOS.

If there's a market for it. I'm not sure that there is, even for a small plane like an A321. IMO B6 like any other airline operating TATL outside of the UK will rely heavily on connections. Even routes like FRA and MUC rely heavily on connections.
 
fraT
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:09 pm

There have been a lot of attempts to connect other German cities to North America. LH had several short lived routes out of TXL as well as some out of DUS.They discontinued them after some time.
AB failed with their long-haul routes out of DUS. UA discontinued HAM, before the merger CO had unsuccessful routes from DUS and CGN. Primera failed before their first flight.
Right now we have a single DL flight out of STR (AFAIR they had another flight but also discontinued it) which is heavily relying on US Army personal and their families. To Berlin, there are less than a handful of transatlanti flights and HAM does not have any T/A service after UA and EK pulled out.
So what does this mean? Even in DUS with the most populated region (including many company HQs) around, airlines seem to be unable to generate money with T/A flights. BER is a tourist hotspot but lacks of corporate travel thus UA and AC have no or a small Biz cabin.
So please stop dreaming about flights to HAJ or other secondary cities. And even if an airline will try it out, LH has the German corporate market under control. They don't care about the STR-ATL flight by DL since the guys with the high yield tickets are using the train or car to go to FRA and fly from there.
 
airbazar
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:40 pm

fraT wrote:
There have been a lot of attempts to connect other German cities to North America. LH had several short lived routes out of TXL as well as some out of DUS.They discontinued them after some time.

It's not just Germany either. It's Europe in general due to the fact that most European countries have their economies heavily centralized around 1 large city, and Americans for the most part don't venture out of the big cities.
One good example is Manchester, UK. There is no bigger TATL market than U.S.-UK and yet TATL routes from MAN are too few and far in between. Italy is also a huge market but TATL routes from MXP are practically non-existent. You go to France, Spain, same story. The TATL market to secondary EU cities is yet to be proven viable. It is possible that an aircraft with 20+% better fuel economy than a 752 could change that. We shall see.
 
SANChaser
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:59 pm

Quick comment about the NB experience on long flights are more about seat width and legroom than the airplane itself. I agree this is the case *in general*. However, for the *minority* of the population with susceptibility to sinuses and migranes, a WB beats a NB anyday. I have had really pleasant flights on the 787, A380, 777 and mostly on the A330 (when I could get the side 2-seat). My 5-6hrs transcontinental flights on the A320/A321 or B737-8/9 are miserable by comparison - and I have flown UA, DL, AA, JB, WN and AS. All in economy class. Haven't flown the A350 yet, but the 787 experience on Norwegian was the most pleasant (i.e. no headaches).

I welcome the XLR and hope many thin routes will open up, but I be packing Sudafed!! :) Like most of my fellow brethren, I will make primary decisions on connections and $, not on the plane in general. But I will try and get on a more pleasant experience given no more than say a 10-15% premium.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:04 pm

Lufthansa was the airline that wanted to be able to do anywhere in Germany to New York with a narrow-body. If there is dis-interest, it has to be at the cruise speed. LH would have great use for the A321XLR at SN (to increase frequencies to West Africa, although to FIH, KGL, and EBB will need a wide-body) and OS (on most current B763 routes). Currently, OS flies the B763 to EWR, IAD, JFK, MIA, ORD (some days), PEK, and YUL. Only MIA, ORD, and PEK are in excess of 4000 nautical miles, and MIA and PEK are sub-daily. If OS can't get new wide-body planes, then secondhand A330-300s at 233t and the A321XLR could do, although such would be restricted on flights to LAX and possibly NRT.

Those planes within the Group would likely never see a place like FRA, MUC, or ZRH, but from VIE, BRU, and DUS, they could work well.
 
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Revelation
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:16 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Lufthansa was the airline that wanted to be able to do anywhere in Germany to New York with a narrow-body.

What do you base this statement on?

I recall a statement that the A321LR didn't have enough range for such a route so they weren't going to consider it, but didn't recall them saying they would do it if there was one that did.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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keesje
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:33 am

Revelation wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Lufthansa was the airline that wanted to be able to do anywhere in Germany to New York with a narrow-body.

What do you base this statement on?

I recall a statement that the A321LR didn't have enough range for such a route so they weren't going to consider it, but didn't recall them saying they would do it if there was one that did.



LH has a history of using NB's to keep important city pairs open for high revenue traffic / keep others out.

https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com/2018/04/18/lufthansa-privatair-dusseldorf-newark/
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:23 am

Revelation wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Lufthansa was the airline that wanted to be able to do anywhere in Germany to New York with a narrow-body.

What do you base this statement on?

I recall a statement that the A321LR didn't have enough range for such a route so they weren't going to consider it, but didn't recall them saying they would do it if there was one that did.


The A321LR, yes. The A321XLR does have that range. However, I see Brussels Airlines as where it fits best, where it could fly all of the routes except FIH, KGL, and EBB. For LH mainline, there is a question of it could adequately serve a destination like PNQ (recently terminated by LH).

LH982 wrote:
LH's nightmare would be JetBlue launching Mint service to BER, HAM, DUS and STR. There are a lot of people who do not love connecting via FRA and MUC, and they will switch if the product is right.


Fully agree. It may have been in the B6 network thread, but I have suggested that B6 should absolutely go all in on secondary Germany once London and Paris are established, possibly converting more A321neo orders to the A321XLR if not all of the LR order, plus a top-up. Continental did and at one point had about 20 B752 destinations in Europe, but once UA and LH went into a JV, those routes began to disappear, except for BER (all of those routes were pmCO B752 routes). B6 absolutely could offer a pricing premium for a better product, despite being supposedly an LCC.
 
strfyr51
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:32 am

Revelation wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
I have to wonder if "game changer" is really dependent on where your airline's bread and butter is. For a company like B6, with lots to gain from the XLR due to what it can achieve from JFK, BOS, and FLL that they don't already offer, it probably is a game changer for them. For a company like LH, it's probably something of a yawner - been there, done that, already have the equipment for it.

Indeed, I think it is relevant to what LH's bread and butter is versus what B6's bread and butter may become if its TATL plans work out, or others like Norwegian or Wizz who probably do want to use XLR on long haul routes now or in the future.

AirwayBill wrote:
Coming from an airline with rather... atypical fleet decisions (346, 748, etc), I wouldn't take his words as a general mantra for the aviation industry.

Sure, but we have to admit LH Group is the kind of blue chip customer both A and B would love to get orders from.

And? Airbus HAS gotten orders from LH. Just not for THIS Airplane...
 
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keesje
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:08 am

strfyr51 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
I have to wonder if "game changer" is really dependent on where your airline's bread and butter is. For a company like B6, with lots to gain from the XLR due to what it can achieve from JFK, BOS, and FLL that they don't already offer, it probably is a game changer for them. For a company like LH, it's probably something of a yawner - been there, done that, already have the equipment for it.

Indeed, I think it is relevant to what LH's bread and butter is versus what B6's bread and butter may become if its TATL plans work out, or others like Norwegian or Wizz who probably do want to use XLR on long haul routes now or in the future.

AirwayBill wrote:
Coming from an airline with rather... atypical fleet decisions (346, 748, etc), I wouldn't take his words as a general mantra for the aviation industry.

Sure, but we have to admit LH Group is the kind of blue chip customer both A and B would love to get orders from.

And? Airbus HAS gotten orders from LH. Just not for THIS Airplane...


Last year Spohr was looking at the a321LR and thought it needed more range.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-airlines-lufthansa/lufthansa-ceo-says-considering-a321lr-but-range-not-enough-idUSKCN1GI1O3
If the next A321XXLR can fly to LAX, Spohr will look at it & say it's heavier than the NEO.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User001
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:58 am

One good example is Manchester, UK. There is no bigger TATL market than U.S.-UK and yet TATL routes from MAN are too few and far in between.


Depends how you class 'few and far between'? There can be anything up to 20 daily flights from MAN across the Atlantic, I class that as quite well connected for a regional, non capital non hub carrier city. Now, comparing it to the likes of AMS/LHR/CDG it will look a small market, but then comparing anything to LHR TATL is a rather futile comparison.
 
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:33 am

airbazar wrote:
fraT wrote:
There have been a lot of attempts to connect other German cities to North America. LH had several short lived routes out of TXL as well as some out of DUS.They discontinued them after some time.

It's not just Germany either. It's Europe in general due to the fact that most European countries have their economies heavily centralized around 1 large city, and Americans for the most part don't venture out of the big cities.
One good example is Manchester, UK. There is no bigger TATL market than U.S.-UK and yet TATL routes from MAN are too few and far in between. Italy is also a huge market but TATL routes from MXP are practically non-existent. You go to France, Spain, same story. The TATL market to secondary EU cities is yet to be proven viable. It is possible that an aircraft with 20+% better fuel economy than a 752 could change that. We shall see.

I'm trying hard to figure out why, other than VFR, an average US tourist would visit MAN or other UK secondary cities. I've used MAN but it was for VFR trips to the Midlands to see relatives in Derby with no time spent in MAN. LPL at least has the Beatles connection to work with, but not many young people care about them. Trips to Scotland seem a bit more popular for golf, whiskey tasting, or general tourism.

I'm a bit more optimistic about BER and some of the Italian secondary cities being draws for tourists. There's a lot of history, art and food options to explore.

But to make a profit you have to find a steady enough stream to fill the plane often enough to make it worthwhile, and as you say, that isn't a proven market.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
mxaxai
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:38 am

fraT wrote:
LH has the German corporate market under control. They don't care about the STR-ATL flight by DL since the guys with the high yield tickets are using the train or car to go to FRA and fly from there.

That is not true. I know that Daimler employees regularly buy high-yield, last-minute Y and J tickets on that flight, for company travel. Other large companies (Porsche, Bosch, Audi, etc.) in the area likely do the same. And FWIW, the guys with the high yield tickets will rather use the STR-FRA flights than take the train.

fraT wrote:
AB failed with their long-haul routes out of DUS.

The one part of AB that was reliably profitable was their long haul network. Particularly Florida seems to work well from Germany (and other European countries). A lot of DL's traffic through Atlanta are European tourists. STR-ATL, for example, usually goes down to 5/6 weekly 76W in winter, but is currently a daily 764 in summer. VS' Florida routes seem to be successful too.
 
mxaxai
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:40 am

Revelation wrote:
I'm trying hard to figure out why, other than VFR, an average US tourist would visit MAN or other UK secondary cities.

Have you considered that the people in and around MAN, or other UK secondary cities, might want to visit the US as tourists? I personally have no desire to visit Detroit, but DTW still has several long haul routes.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:41 am

Revelation wrote:
I'm trying hard to figure out why, other than VFR, an average US tourist would visit MAN or other UK secondary cities. I've used MAN but it was for VFR trips to the Midlands to see relatives in Derby with no time spent in MAN. LPL at least has the Beatles connection to work with, but not many young people care about them. Trips to Scotland seem a bit more popular for golf, whiskey tasting, or general tourism.


Maybe not the city of Manchester itself despite having some things to offer, but from MAN you can access the following: -

Liverpool - 45 minutes away by road and has two trains per hour. Football, museums, Beatles connection, Mersey Ferries, once a major shipping port
Peak District - 30 minutes by road, rolling hills and countryside
Chester - 45 minutes by road, you literally come out of MAN onto the M56 and head west. Historic Roman city, racecourse and there's also Cheshire Oaks outlet village nearby (attractive for those looking to take advantage of the weak pound)
North Wales - The border is less than an hour by road, again head west along the M56 out of MAN
York - Less than 2 hours away by road and has 2 trains per hour. Also a historic Roman city with lots to see and do such as York Minster, National Railway Museum, city walls and the Shambles (reportedly one of the inspirations for Diagon Alley in Harry Potter).
Lake District - Less than 2 hours away and trains run to Barrow-in-Furness and Windermere. Beautiful part of the country with lakes and rolling hills/mountains, Beatrix Potter connection, also popular with tourists from Asian countries
Lincoln - Less than 3 hours drive. Again, another Roman city with a large cathedral that's become very popular in recent years due to The Da Vinci Code being filmed there
Edinburgh & Glasgow - Direct trains do the journey in 3-4 hours, great alternative to the smaller number of direct flights serving GLA/EDI from the US or connecting at places such as LHR.

Other cities such as Leeds, Sheffield, Birmingham all within 2hrs of MAN.

I do think people need to look beyond the city of Manchester when it comes to the tourism opportunities available from MAN. If some/none of this appeals to US tourists, that's not really the fault of the airport or the places themselves. Each to their own and all that.

Disclaimer: I have lived in the North West of England for the vast majority of my life, visited all of the above and witnessed foreign visitors.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:43 am

I don't really understand the whole antipathy to narrow-body long haul. I'd much rather fly on a 321 with 18 inch wide seats than a 777 with 17 inch seats.
 
leghorn
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:53 am

sibibom wrote:
Like it or not, it will be a gamechanger, perhaps not in the best way for LH. Smaller airlines and budget carriers have ordered it. They will start more point to point travel across the pond and maybe even into MiddleEast/South Asia, its going to impact the feed to mega-hubs like FRA and MUC amongst others. Time shall tell if it is going to lead to substantial growth in traffic or it will eat into LH's share.

When they can no longer fill widebodies due to fewer people hubbing through FRA and MUC then they too will be forced to adopt narrowbodies themselves for long range routes.
 
User001
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Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:11 pm

Revelation wrote:
airbazar wrote:
fraT wrote:
There have been a lot of attempts to connect other German cities to North America. LH had several short lived routes out of TXL as well as some out of DUS.They discontinued them after some time.

It's not just Germany either. It's Europe in general due to the fact that most European countries have their economies heavily centralized around 1 large city, and Americans for the most part don't venture out of the big cities.
One good example is Manchester, UK. There is no bigger TATL market than U.S.-UK and yet TATL routes from MAN are too few and far in between. Italy is also a huge market but TATL routes from MXP are practically non-existent. You go to France, Spain, same story. The TATL market to secondary EU cities is yet to be proven viable. It is possible that an aircraft with 20+% better fuel economy than a 752 could change that. We shall see.

I'm trying hard to figure out why, other than VFR, an average US tourist would visit MAN or other UK secondary cities. I've used MAN but it was for VFR trips to the Midlands to see relatives in Derby with no time spent in MAN. LPL at least has the Beatles connection to work with, but not many young people care about them. Trips to Scotland seem a bit more popular for golf, whiskey tasting, or general tourism.

I'm a bit more optimistic about BER and some of the Italian secondary cities being draws for tourists. There's a lot of history, art and food options to explore.

But to make a profit you have to find a steady enough stream to fill the plane often enough to make it worthwhile, and as you say, that isn't a proven market.


I'm continually surprised that a site that is supposed to be for those who like aviation, and therefore by default should also like travel and thus hopefully be a bit more 'worldly', but then you log on and read posts as narrow minded as this. Just staggering.

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