User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 21938
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:16 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I'm trying hard to figure out why, other than VFR, an average US tourist would visit MAN or other UK secondary cities.

Have you considered that the people in and around MAN, or other UK secondary cities, might want to visit the US as tourists? I personally have no desire to visit Detroit, but DTW still has several long haul routes.

Good idea to add that to the discussion.

Do you think there is enough bi-directional interest for B6 to serve BOS-MAN and/or JFK-MAN?

Boeing74741R wrote:
Maybe not the city of Manchester itself despite having some things to offer, but from MAN you can access the following: -

Liverpool - 45 minutes away by road and has two trains per hour. Football, museums, Beatles connection, Mersey Ferries, once a major shipping port
Peak District - 30 minutes by road, rolling hills and countryside
Chester - 45 minutes by road, you literally come out of MAN onto the M56 and head west. Historic Roman city, racecourse and there's also Cheshire Oaks outlet village nearby (attractive for those looking to take advantage of the weak pound)
North Wales - The border is less than an hour by road, again head west along the M56 out of MAN
York - Less than 2 hours away by road and has 2 trains per hour. Also a historic Roman city with lots to see and do such as York Minster, National Railway Museum, city walls and the Shambles (reportedly one of the inspirations for Diagon Alley in Harry Potter).
Lake District - Less than 2 hours away and trains run to Barrow-in-Furness and Windermere. Beautiful part of the country with lakes and rolling hills/mountains, Beatrix Potter connection, also popular with tourists from Asian countries
Lincoln - Less than 3 hours drive. Again, another Roman city with a large cathedral that's become very popular in recent years due to The Da Vinci Code being filmed there
Edinburgh & Glasgow - Direct trains do the journey in 3-4 hours, great alternative to the smaller number of direct flights serving GLA/EDI from the US or connecting at places such as LHR.

Other cities such as Leeds, Sheffield, Birmingham all within 2hrs of MAN.

I do think people need to look beyond the city of Manchester when it comes to the tourism opportunities available from MAN. If some/none of this appeals to US tourists, that's not really the fault of the airport or the places themselves. Each to their own and all that.

Disclaimer: I have lived in the North West of England for the vast majority of my life, visited all of the above and witnessed foreign visitors.

All great points.

As a person with relatives in the area I've visited most of the places you've mentioned over the years.

I found York with its Roman and Viking connections to be fascinating, and flew in a glider at Sutton Bank.

My auntie still volunteers at Kedleston Hall at age 90 so I've seen evidence of tourists there still interested in seeing where parts of "Pride and Prejudice" was filmed, and have visited other National Trust properties in the area as well.

As interesting as it was, I'm not sure I could talk my neighbors in to making a trip there to see it all.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
na
Posts: 9720
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:21 pm

I fully agree with Mr. Spohr, a single aisle aircraft is clearly inferior and unsuitable on longhaul flights. I once flew to the US with an Icelandair 757. I would never do that again, no matter what airline. And as LH does not compete at the very lowest, cheapest end of the competition, the A321XLR doesnt fit to the airline´s premium image at all unless they remove one seat per row, like in a special role as a Business and PY only Express service aircraft between FRA and JFK which would be just about two airplanes then! I think in a more standard configuration within the LH network the A321XLR is only suitable for AUA or Brussels for their shorter longhaul routes.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9831
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:03 pm

User001 wrote:
One good example is Manchester, UK. There is no bigger TATL market than U.S.-UK and yet TATL routes from MAN are too few and far in between.


Depends how you class 'few and far between'? There can be anything up to 20 daily flights from MAN across the Atlantic, I class that as quite well connected for a regional, non capital non hub carrier city. Now, comparing it to the likes of AMS/LHR/CDG it will look a small market, but then comparing anything to LHR TATL is a rather futile comparison.

Hence my point about European markets being centralized around 1 large city. There's a huge drop-off in flights from the #1 airport to the #2 airport in every European country. Germany being the exception to that rule where the huge drop-off is between the #2 and #3.
By the way half of those MAN TATL routes are glorified charter routes to places like MCO, CUN, PUJ, and LAS. That is where the locals want to go.

Revelation wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I'm trying hard to figure out why, other than VFR, an average US tourist would visit MAN or other UK secondary cities.

Have you considered that the people in and around MAN, or other UK secondary cities, might want to visit the US as tourists? I personally have no desire to visit Detroit, but DTW still has several long haul routes.

Good idea to add that to the discussion.
Do you think there is enough bi-directional interest for B6 to serve BOS-MAN and/or JFK-MAN?

All indications are that MAN residents are not any different than American tourists to the UK. Just look at where the TATL flights from MAN go. Add NYC to the list above and that's pretty much it.
I don't see B6 adding BOS-MAN early on. They have bigger routes to serve for starters. However the bi-directional interest will come via connections as it already does today. B6 connects a lot of passengers to/from their international partners at BOS.
 
User001
Posts: 972
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:18 pm

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:18 pm

By the way half of those MAN TATL routes are glorified charter routes to places like MCO, CUN, PUJ, and LAS. That is where the locals want to


You can call them what you want but they are still fully scheduled flights with or without your 'glorified charter' interjection. Funny how you point out those flights when there are also BOS/LAX/SFO/SEA/JFK/EWR/PHL/YYZ/YVR flights amongst others to point out too.

But as said, call them what you want, this site is so full of narrow minded views you just blend into the crowd.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1202
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:23 pm

Revelation wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I'm trying hard to figure out why, other than VFR, an average US tourist would visit MAN or other UK secondary cities.

Have you considered that the people in and around MAN, or other UK secondary cities, might want to visit the US as tourists? I personally have no desire to visit Detroit, but DTW still has several long haul routes.

Good idea to add that to the discussion.

Do you think there is enough bi-directional interest for B6 to serve BOS-MAN and/or JFK-MAN?

NYC-MAN is served 3x daily with widebodies so I guess there is some demand on that route. BOS-MAN is served only 2x weekly by VS.

IMHO those two markets are quite different from each other if JetBlue wanted to enter. I can't see JetBlue offering lower fares than Thomas Cook (assuming they continue to operate ...) on JFK-MAN. Especially not when it's a low-density A321 against a high-density A330. But they might be able to coexist with VS and UA, considering the already large market.

On the other hand, a daily A321 should be quite competitive against VS' two weekly flights. It's pretty clear who the customers would prefer. Of course VS and Delta could put up a fight and go daily as well, just to keep the competition out. I think BOS could actually support a narrowbody quite well. BOS itself is a lower volume, higher yield market compared to NYC, and also a more 'sophisticated' tourist destination. First time visitors to the US fly to NYC, but those who've seen the world (and hence have money to spare) and want to see something special go to Boston. It's also basically the gateway to New England, which is definitely more of a tourist destination than England proper.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9831
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:25 pm

User001 wrote:
By the way half of those MAN TATL routes are glorified charter routes to places like MCO, CUN, PUJ, and LAS. That is where the locals want to


You can call them what you want but they are still fully scheduled flights with or without your 'glorified charter' interjection. Funny how you point out those flights when there are also BOS/LAX/SFO/SEA/JFK/EWR/PHL/YYZ/YVR flights amongst others to point out too.

But as said, call them what you want, this site is so full of narrow minded views you just blend into the crowd.


Uh? you do realize this is thread about Lufthansa and Germany TATL right? You want to discuss MAN go start your own thread.
Facts are facts, but I guess when you don't like the facts it's ok to insult other people. The facts are that there is very little demand to/from secondary European cities relative to the big cities and MAN is no different.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1202
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:49 pm

airbazar wrote:
The facts are that there is very little demand to/from secondary European cities relative to the big cities and MAN is no different.

Exactly. That is why A380s and 777-9s will serve those big hubs, and A321s are just the right size to give those secondary cities (more) access to TATL.
 
Absynth
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:37 pm

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:58 pm

airbazar wrote:
The facts are that there is very little demand to/from secondary European cities relative to the big cities and MAN is no different.


Uhm...which is exactly where the 321XLR comes into play? Those secondary cities can't fill a 787 or even a 330, but a 321 can open up a lot of new TATL lines that can operate profitably at much lower volume.

Eastern Europe has the same potential, but then for the smaller capitals like Bratislava, Vilnius, Zagreb, Sofia etc. that have too little volume for a widebody.
 
User001
Posts: 972
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:18 pm

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:28 am

airbazar wrote:
Uh? you do realize this is thread about Lufthansa and Germany TATL right? You want to discuss MAN go start your own thread.
Facts are facts, but I guess when you don't like the facts it's ok to insult other people. The facts are that there is very little demand to/from secondary European cities relative to the big cities and MAN is no different.


Im fully aware of what this thread is, but when falsehoods like' flights are few and far between' and 'why would anyone go to MAN' then there is right to defend those claims. You state 'facts are facts' yet go against those facts as you don't like it when your falsehood is disproved.

Anyway, if you wish to converse with me, hit the pm button. Apart from that, I'm quite content you don't know the MAN market very well so I'll rest easy for now.
 
Delta777Jet
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:00 am

Well , Lufthansa also chose the 340 over the 777 and the 340-600 over the 777-300ER. Not always the smartest decision ! With the 321XLR they could finally show more presents on longer thinner routes ( like HAM-NYC, TXL-IAD/ORD/DXB , STR-NYC, FRA-PIT/STL/CLE/REC etc ) , which would be a Game Changer for them , but apparently LH is contracting to destroy their own brand by pushing Eurowings !
717/722/732/733/735/736/73G/739/739/741/742/743/744/748/74L/752/753/762/763/764/772/773/77L/788/789/781/DC10/L10/L15/M80/M90/320/321/319/AB6/312/313/332/333/342/343/346/359/388/T54/IL18/AT4/AT7/DH1/DH3/DH4/E145/170/1790/Bae146/RJ85/F50/F70/100/CR2/CR7/CR9
 
Blotto
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:00 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:09 am

Delta777Jet wrote:
Well , Lufthansa also chose the 340 over the 777 and the 340-600 over the 777-300ER. Not always the smartest decision ! With the 321XLR they could finally show more presents on longer thinner routes ( like HAM-NYC, TXL-IAD/ORD/DXB , STR-NYC, FRA-PIT/STL/CLE/REC etc ) , which would be a Game Changer for them , but apparently LH is contracting to destroy their own brand by pushing Eurowings !


I doubt that LH will open new bases for the XLR. Thinner routes out of FRA or MUC? Sure, that will happen. More frequency on existing routes? Also possible.

As for the comment about single aisle comfort: Personally I love to fly on the 747 upper deck which is basically narrow body width. Given a typical long range config, I dont see why this wouldn't work out in terms of comfort
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 21938
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:14 am

Absynth wrote:
airbazar wrote:
The facts are that there is very little demand to/from secondary European cities relative to the big cities and MAN is no different.


Uhm...which is exactly where the 321XLR comes into play? Those secondary cities can't fill a 787 or even a 330, but a 321 can open up a lot of new TATL lines that can operate profitably at much lower volume.

I think the issue is LH knows it can't "operate profitably" a bunch of long-range narrowbodies flying to/from secondary cities with inconsistent demand, because of its cost structure.

The comfort issue is a way of saying LH needs premium demand and high efficiency to even hope to get the routes to work.

In essence LH is saying XLR doesn't have the right revenue generating potential to work for them.

Maybe they will find NMA can work, time will tell.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
787X30
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:16 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:32 am

Revelation wrote:
The comfort issue is a way of saying ...


It seems Boeing have cancelled the third/fourth engines since the game changing 707, but not the second aisle since the game changing 747. Why?

Revelation wrote:
In essence LH is saying XLR doesn't have the right revenue generating potential to work for them.


In essence, an intercontinental 321 might prove too small for a big airline?

Is there anything but a decline in UA/COs single aisle Europe ops? The transcon-game changing NG forced them there...
 
ihmcallister
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:14 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:56 am

More comfortable to spend a long flight in a narrow-body with 3+3 and 18" wide seats, than a 777 in 3+3+3 with 17" wide seats any day!
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 21938
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:24 pm

787X30 wrote:
Is there anything but a decline in UA/COs single aisle Europe ops? The transcon-game changing NG forced them there...

I think the game changer was Mint on B6's A321, and all the legacies live in fear that someone can make that model work on TATL routes.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
airbazar
Posts: 9831
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:43 pm

User001 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Uh? you do realize this is thread about Lufthansa and Germany TATL right? You want to discuss MAN go start your own thread.
Facts are facts, but I guess when you don't like the facts it's ok to insult other people. The facts are that there is very little demand to/from secondary European cities relative to the big cities and MAN is no different.


Im fully aware of what this thread is, but when falsehoods like' flights are few and far between' and 'why would anyone go to MAN' then there is right to defend those claims. You state 'facts are facts' yet go against those facts as you don't like it when your falsehood is disproved.

Anyway, if you wish to converse with me, hit the pm button. Apart from that, I'm quite content you don't know the MAN market very well so I'll rest easy for now.


It's not a fasehood, it's a fact. How many TATL flights do you have from MAN vs LHR? I don't need to know the MAN market. I simply need to look at today's schedule and compare it with LHR to see that relative to LHR it has too few and far in between. And that's my last comment on this topic. And this is peak summer season. Come back in the Winter that that number drops. And no I will not PM people who feel the need to insult when they are presented with a different opinion.

Absynth wrote:
airbazar wrote:
The facts are that there is very little demand to/from secondary European cities relative to the big cities and MAN is no different.


Uhm...which is exactly where the 321XLR comes into play? Those secondary cities can't fill a 787 or even a 330, but a 321 can open up a lot of new TATL lines that can operate profitably at much lower volume.

Indeed. Read the thread and you will see that I agree with that general opinion. Just not with the idea of LH doing it because I don't think that operating p-2-p TATL routes fits into LH's business model.
Last edited by airbazar on Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 21938
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:44 pm

User001 wrote:
Im fully aware of what this thread is, but when falsehoods like' flights are few and far between' and 'why would anyone go to MAN' then there is right to defend those claims.

What you view as people rightfully defending claims I view as people being easily triggered due to ignoring context.

From my point of view it goes back to what I wrote in #81 which I feel was on topic:

The counter point is that BA have learned the hard way over years if not decades in a less protected market that it's not worth it to defend every UK city not named London from competition and it's better to focus on what you do well rather than a half hearted effort at doing something you don't do well. We have EK flying A380 to BHX, MAN, and GLA without the end of the world for BA and I suspect it will go the same way for LH. They won't be nimble enough to fight off all the eventual competitors in BER/HAM/DUS/CGN/etc and they know it. The fact they are shutting down EW longhaul speaks to this.

Others wrote that LH's home market is more spread out than BA's so LH needed to serve secondary cities more strongly, but never addressed the main issue which is that LH's cost base is high just like BA's is/was so fighting for secondary cities is/was not likely to be profitable.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Checklist787
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:22 pm

ihmcallister wrote:
More comfortable to spend a long flight in a narrow-body with 3+3 and 18" wide seats, than a 777 in 3+3+3 with 17" wide seats any day!


The A320 3-3 / 6-abreast 18 "wide seats 30" pitch.

I prefer the 777 3-3-3 / 9-abreast 17 "wide seats 31/32" pitch any day. :roll:
 
Eyad89
Posts: 644
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:47 pm

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:23 pm

For those discussing seat width, seat pitch, and cabin width, didn’t you forget something more important? What about nonstop flights vs connecting flights?

The whole point of such a product is to offer direct flights on routes that were only possible through connecting flights. I think a 7 hour direct flight on a narrowbody is more attractive than 13 hours on 2 A380s (including layover).
 
User avatar
BaconButty
Posts: 813
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:42 pm

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:57 pm

Revelation wrote:
As interesting as it was, I'm not sure I could talk my neighbors in to making a trip there to see it all.


Well, go to any match at Anfield and you'll hear plenty of american accents - something that would be a rarity 10 years ago. I'm sure it's the same at Old Trafford, The Etihad, and maybe even Goodison
- heck, Stallone's a blue. And even just on an ordinary night/day in the pub in Liverpool, the amount of times there's a group of Americans on the next table is surprising. Though lest we forget, according to the Rough Guide, a night out in Liverpool is thenumber 3 thing to do before you die - sandwiched between Petra and the Great Wall of China. Now I love the city but I'm not sure about this one.

But it's not just the tourism (though I think one day people will realise how much good stuff is outside of London). Take universities - Manchester would be the entry point for at least 6 of the 24 Russell group universities, plus Lancaster which is a top 10 university and not in the Russell group (maybe even Loughborough, it's quicker to get to Manchester if the route/frequency is available).

Then of course there is business - the stretch between the Airport and the Wirral past Runcorn and Ellesmere Port is a chemical industry hotbed. My wife works in research for Unilever and they have lots of Americans working there, and my wife has to visit New Haven periodically to their counterparts there - obviously via New York.

I'm not saying build it and they will come - though there will be an element of that- but I do think transatlantic travel from Manchester could be revolutionised by the XLR. Or, put it another way, if the XLR can't stimulate new routes out of places like Manchester, it probably won't have the effect Airbus hope.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
9Patch
Posts: 405
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:38 pm

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:36 pm

ihmcallister wrote:
More comfortable to spend a long flight in a narrow-body with 3+3 and 18" wide seats, than a 777 in 3+3+3 with 17" wide seats any day!

Who operates a 777 with 3+3+3 and 17-inch seats?
Those planes must have really wide aisles!
 
sf260
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:59 pm

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:10 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
However, I see Brussels Airlines as where it fits best, where it could fly all of the routes except FIH, KGL, and EBB.

Range-wise you are correct, but the A330 is just too well suited for SN's Africa ops. They can take loads of cargo, especially the newer A330's in the fleet with the higher MZFW/MTOW. It's not uncommon to have 10t+ cargo on board, some Africa destinations are not sustainable without the cargo. This is also one of the main reasons why they have not ordered the A321LR (yet), they have to compromise too much on the cargo side.

I think the A321XLR could do very well, mainly to open new destinations in NA or add frequencies in Africa, but not to replace the A330's.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 21938
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:20 am

BaconButty wrote:
I'm not saying build it and they will come - though there will be an element of that- but I do think transatlantic travel from Manchester could be revolutionised by the XLR. Or, put it another way, if the XLR can't stimulate new routes out of places like Manchester, it probably won't have the effect Airbus hope.

Great points, but again, the question isn't if MAN-NYC can work with XLR, the question is can a major like BA with its high cost base make MAN-NYC work on XLR or can LH make HAM-NYC work?

Personally I think your wife's colleagues will be more likely to end up on a B6 XLR with Mint than a BA XLR with whatever passes as their soft product of the day.

PS: I should have read the MAN thread before ever mentioning MAN, if I had done so I would have realized what it is I was going up against! :biggrin:
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3002
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:31 am

9Patch wrote:
ihmcallister wrote:
More comfortable to spend a long flight in a narrow-body with 3+3 and 18" wide seats, than a 777 in 3+3+3 with 17" wide seats any day!

Who operates a 777 with 3+3+3 and 17-inch seats?
Those planes must have really wide aisles!


Garuda Indonesia.
 
User avatar
N62NA
Posts: 4413
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:11 am

VS11 wrote:

3. Your comfort level as a pax does not have anything to do with your plane being NB or WB. It must be horribly uncomfortable to fly in a private jet as they are NB.


Of course it does. Try sitting in a box 21 inches wide for 6 hours. That's about the width of an airline seat.

It's a psychological thing.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6960
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:46 am

Revelation wrote:
Absynth wrote:
airbazar wrote:
The facts are that there is very little demand to/from secondary European cities relative to the big cities and MAN is no different.


Uhm...which is exactly where the 321XLR comes into play? Those secondary cities can't fill a 787 or even a 330, but a 321 can open up a lot of new TATL lines that can operate profitably at much lower volume.

I think the issue is LH knows it can't "operate profitably" a bunch of long-range narrowbodies flying to/from secondary cities with inconsistent demand, because of its cost structure.

The comfort issue is a way of saying LH needs premium demand and high efficiency to even hope to get the routes to work.

In essence LH is saying XLR doesn't have the right revenue generating potential to work for them.

Maybe they will find NMA can work, time will tell.


You started this thread with a link in which LH actually say the A321XLR will work for them.

“The new XLR could be used in our network. We look at it


I've lifted this sentence from your own quote - it's just a bit you decided not to "bold" for whatever reason
The only noteworthy quote from Spohr really is that it's not a gamechanger.
And from his point of view it might not be.

It clearly is from a number of other viewpoints.

Rgds
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8951
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:08 am

Surely it is not a game changer for them, as it is a niche plane.

TATL services from secondary cities in Germany is highly seasonal and not limited by volume but by yields during the strong months. It is no problem to fill an A330 in economy during the strong months , it is a problem to generate enough revenue to make it worthwhile. In the weak months you have too little high yielding traffic to keep many routes flying and making cash. There might be a limited advantage if you find a route with a seasonality that is the exact opposite of the TATL routes, so you could switch frames between the destinations as required.

The A321XLR is interesting for Africa, India and central Asia though, where the actual demand is lower, but the traffic has much higher yields.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1237
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:35 am

mxaxai wrote:
NYC-MAN is served 3x daily with widebodies so I guess there is some demand on that route. BOS-MAN is served only 2x weekly by VS.


MAN-BOS is 3x weekly, albeit seasonal. VS now have the route to themselves from this year as Thomas Cook have withdrawn their service. Hopefully more frequencies and a year round service will follow in the near future as that will be one way of enticing demand.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 399
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:30 am

airbazar wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Lufthansa never flew the B757 also.

Sorry but this argument about LH never operating the 757 misses the fact that they chose the A321 in favor of the 757, from the very beginning. And why? Because they don't need the range. It also ignores the fact that when the 757 was launched hardly anyone was flying them on long haul routes, and certainly not on TATL routes save for a few charter airlines with a refueling stop somewhere along the way. Lets not look at the history of the 757 through today's lenses because it makes absolutely no sense.


But that's exactl;my point: LH never needed an aircraft like the B757 exactly because it di dnot have routes similar, for example, to LHR-IAD, STV TEL, EDI-ORD and others which, at that time where the B757 was being built, made perfect sense (a NB able to have a relatively long range). As you correctly stated, it chose the A321 because it needed the capacity but not the range.

This is still the case today so, obviously, an A321XLR will not do it for them. They do not fly long haul thin routes contrary to some other airlines. They do not even have space for B787-8s on their fleet - an aircraft that is mostlyused for those routes nowadays which command range but are thin (although this one is a WB as we all know...).

I would also risk saying that Boeing's NMA is not for them either but time will tell
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1202
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:22 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
But that's exactly my point: LH never needed an aircraft like the B757.
This is still the case today so, obviously, an A321XLR will not do it for them. They do not fly long haul thin routes contrary to some other airlines.

The difference is that the 757 could've made it to only NYC and BOS from Germany. But the additional range of the XLR should allow destinations like BWI, CLE, YUL or even CVG, CLT, MSP from Frankfurt.
I'd agree that it's not a game changer for LH per se. Much of the newly accessible area is water (atlantic, indian ocean), sparsely inhabited (central asia, northern Canada) or economically weak (central africa). The only significant new markets are north-eastern America and north-western India.
 
VS11
Posts: 1470
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:39 pm

N62NA wrote:
VS11 wrote:

3. Your comfort level as a pax does not have anything to do with your plane being NB or WB. It must be horribly uncomfortable to fly in a private jet as they are NB.


Of course it does. Try sitting in a box 21 inches wide for 6 hours. That's about the width of an airline seat.

It's a psychological thing.


Sorry but no. I have flown PHL-AMS on AA 757 and JFK-LHR on BA 747. I had more space on the 757 and was way more comfortable than on the 747 where I felt really cramped. NB vs WB was not a factor at all.
 
vfw614
Posts: 3801
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:35 am

Well, until 1970 people were perfectly happy to do longhaul on narrowbodies as that was all that was available. Most legacy carriers operated DC8s/707s/VC10s into the 1980s. I suppose Mr Spohr knows perfectly well that it is not about the tube but about what you put inside the tube.
 
speedbird52
Posts: 833
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:29 am

User001 wrote:
By the way half of those MAN TATL routes are glorified charter routes to places like MCO, CUN, PUJ, and LAS. That is where the locals want to


You can call them what you want but they are still fully scheduled flights with or without your 'glorified charter' interjection. Funny how you point out those flights when there are also BOS/LAX/SFO/SEA/JFK/EWR/PHL/YYZ/YVR flights amongst others to point out too.

But as said, call them what you want, this site is so full of narrow minded views you just blend into the crowd.

SEA is a seasonal once weekly
 
ihmcallister
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:14 am

Re: LH will look at A321XLR, but it's no game-changer: CEO

Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:31 am

9Patch wrote:
ihmcallister wrote:
More comfortable to spend a long flight in a narrow-body with 3+3 and 18" wide seats, than a 777 in 3+3+3 with 17" wide seats any day!

Who operates a 777 with 3+3+3 and 17-inch seats?
Those planes must have really wide aisles!


Yes, my mistake . . . The 17" wide seats in the 777 are in the awful 3-4-3 config. I absolutely refuse to book flights on them.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos