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Zoedyn
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:51 pm

steveinbc wrote:
Interesting stats. That BA have 53% of slots is indeed dominant. But is this any more dominant than LH at FRA or AF at CDG or DL at ATL. Don't even know what the main Chinese carrier is at Beijing but I'm sure it's up there.


PEK capacity share by airline for 2017. But things may soon change dramatically due to the upcoming PKX. Maybe VS can try Heathrow-Daxing?
Image
 
sargester
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:21 pm

This is a funny joke alright...
 
marcelh
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:50 pm

FabDiva wrote:
Good question, given there is a fairly high chance that B Johnson will be the next PM, will we see the stupid idea for an island in the North Sea get resurrected?

That isn’t a stupid idea. Try to think out of the box and think big.
 
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cathay747
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:07 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
Image


43% of the new slots, eh? That'll be one beeelion dollars!
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
KLDC10
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:13 pm

FabDiva wrote:
Good question, given there is a fairly high chance that B Johnson will be the next PM, will we see the stupid idea for an island in the North Sea get resurrected?


If it were to be built, it would be in the Thames Estuary, rather than the North Sea per se.

It isn’t necessarily a stupid idea. There are some obstacles - cost, distance from Central London, the possibility of interference with AMS traffic etc. And of course, the not insignificant issue of a sunken ship full of explosives - the clearing of which would be expensive and dangerous. But a new airport is worth exploring.

However, ‘Boris Island’, or the ‘Thames Estuary Airport’ (whichever moniker is more appealing) would be a long term project. The use and expansion of LHR will still be necessary in the short to medium term, and even if a new airport were built, there is no guarantee that Heathrow would close. The airport needs a new runway urgently - in fact, it needed one over a decade ago. The construction of a new airport, then, should not prevent the construction of a third runway.
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A346/A359
Q400/E170/E175/E190/CS300
 
Gingersnap
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:15 pm

Well you what they say. Aim high.

It's not a totally unreasonable demand. The last thing we need at LHR is for IAG to receive the lion's share of the extra slots (which is probably the most likely scenario).
Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W B788 C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:31 pm

All HOT AIR from VS.... they had the opportunity with chance to purchase BD......
Also, pretty sure VS still lease out some slots....?

Anyhow , DL call the shots now, not windbag SRB
 
grbauc
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:47 pm

slinky09 wrote:
VS cut routes to focus on yield with DL, Tokyo was a popular and busy route, HKG could go twice daily again for example. BA will fight but why should BA get 60% of the additional capacity and all other airlines suffer?


Thank you I put VA accidentally.

Im not saying BA should but VS has not been doing what its needs to to grow now and its a bit of dramatics by some and VS. VS I get the PR battle from some poster ummm. Not sure why they let Little red go if they want to grow they have not really done that with what resources there are or have been in the last 5-10 years
 
grbauc
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:51 pm

Gingersnap wrote:
Well you what they say. Aim high.

It's not a totally unreasonable demand. The last thing we need at LHR is for IAG to receive the lion's share of the extra slots (which is probably the most likely scenario).


Well if other's are using them then good but UK /home teams should be given some priority and BA that is and has nourished LHR should get a Fair amount.

BA has proven they will use them. VS to some degree hasn't. Little red.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:00 pm

And I demand to have sex with hot looking models. :-I

Wish in one hand, crap in the other. Which one will pile up first?
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
Fargo
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:38 pm

Would this not raise antitrust concerns? Considering the VS/DL/KL/AF jv already has two dominant hubs in CDG and AMS, this could be the beginning of a sizable third hub for the jv (though still not as sizable as CDG/AMS).
 
Sydscott
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:06 am

TUGMASTER wrote:
All HOT AIR from VS.... they had the opportunity with chance to purchase BD......
Also, pretty sure VS still lease out some slots....?

Anyhow , DL call the shots now, not windbag SRB


Couldn't agree more! The fact that EK, QR, EY, CX and a litany of other airlines have been able to expand their slot holdings at LHR over the years and that VS has done nothing but miss opportunities to buy slots and then whinge about it all later says everything about VS. Rent seekers and free loaders should not be rewarded with more slots, they should go to airlines with a proven ability to utilise them and provide maximum public benefit. If that is IAG then so be it.
 
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PW100
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:08 am

cathay747 wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
Image


43% of the new slots, eh? That'll be one beeelion dollars!


And we shall call it: "The Alan Parsons Project".
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
skipness1E
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:10 am

Adding a third runway is an *ENORMOUS* growth potential opening up a whole lot of options that will need very careful managing to ensure yields aren't trashed in the medium term as the market stabilises.
BA will need to battle for market share on key routes as at a stroke, UNITED, Delta and Virgin will be able to launch into secondary markets that weren't viable up til now and so undermine the focus of BA/AA to hub and codeshare via American's key US hubs. Any JetBlue London operation would likely also be moving to LHR and that's before any new entrants have a go.
The challenge for all legacy LHR users is making good use of any new opportunities profitably, do they sacrifice market share for yield?
Let's be clear, if this expansion ever happens, easyJet will be a part of the mix as well, further threatening IAG's yields on key London markets.

Fun times.
 
Ionosphere
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:21 am

How would VS operated 75 more round trips a day? They failed horribly with Little Red.
 
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OA940
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:42 am

Yes but to where? While I assume many would choose them over BA (assuming the same price on a route) there would also be many who would do the opposite. I wish them luck if they're planning a large expansion like this but I'm not sure how effective it can be
A350/CSeries = bae
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:42 am

grbauc wrote:
Gingersnap wrote:
Well you what they say. Aim high.

It's not a totally unreasonable demand. The last thing we need at LHR is for IAG to receive the lion's share of the extra slots (which is probably the most likely scenario).


Well if other's are using them then good but UK /home teams should be given some priority and BA that is and has nourished LHR should get a Fair amount.

BA has proven they will use them. VS to some degree hasn't. Little red.


Little Red used remedy slots for EDI and ABZ, with MAN using VS' own slots, so either way they were limited as to what they could do. Little Red also used wet-leased planes from Aer Lingus which probably didn't help with the long-term viability of the concept along with reports of aircraft not always being full/heavily loaded, though I suspect the Aer Lingus involvement was just to get them off the ground relatively quickly with a view towards taking Little Red ops in house in the longer term if it was a success. Just because Little Red wasn't a success doesn't mean VS wouldn't be able to utilise more slots as I'm sure they can, both for long-haul and with Flybe (which frankly are perhaps better suited to operating domestic feeder flights to/from LHR than the first time round).
 
f4f3a
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:55 am

Have heard a rumour that a lot of future slots had been pre allocated . Amongst others that easyJet had Been offered some . Maybe a deal could de done so that a code share could be agreed on some routes
 
sxf24
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:01 pm

Ionosphere wrote:
How would VS operated 75 more round trips a day? They failed horribly with Little Red.


Shuttle service to ATL and JFK.
 
SelseyBill
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:11 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Utter BS. That level of growth in a legacy company in a cut throat market would end them. It’s all fluff and PR.
What it likely means is an opportunity to consolidate London operations at one airport and close Gatwick, but we’re a long way away from that. All those Connect Airways DHDs now make sense but there’s a LOT of turnaround still to go, but a single London airport with a new B789/A35K/A339 fleet partnering with Delta, who would likely be in the above request as it’s a JV would be compelling.


⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️
this.........

This hasn't got anything to do with VS IMO; this is all about DL and Ed Bastion trying to get more slots for 'Delta-UK'.

I have no problem with that; but we should get over considering 'Virgin-Atlantic' as Britains #2 flag carrier; be a bit honest here; and just look at what it has become; just another Delta hub.

I also struggle with the cries from VS that they are short on slots when they have been letting them out for so many years to other operators.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:55 pm

Ionosphere wrote:
How would VS operated 75 more round trips a day? They failed horribly with Little Red.


Little Red is an operation that will be 15 years behind at the opening of the 3rd runway.
You can't stop expansion based on legacy decisons from different managements and ownerships, operating under certain constraints.
With DL holding the wallet behind VS, things are very different today.

The questions can be asked, if VS don't get a large share of the new slots, who should get them?
The ME3? Give me a break.
BA? BA would get a large share anyway, the fact is that BA has already been given much and there is a lot less BA can do with new slots than underdogs VS/DL.

In a UK outside the EU, aviation will play a major role in trade, employment and the general economy.
Yields or no yields, London needs a capacity boost, that is the reality.
BA will benefit for sure, but BA already has plenty of slots and they can boost capacity today through the use of larger aircraft.
VS can't do that without having enough slots for feeding and buiding a network.
 
Elshad
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:50 pm

Hopefully the runway actually gets built. The NIMBY mafia need to be defeated.
 
bennett123
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:55 pm

Boeing74741R

I only took a couple of flights with Little Red.

That was up to EDI on Sunday Evening and back on Friday Evening. The price was not bad (£80 ish).

LF was about 50%, possibly less.

What I could not figure is why, in terms of internal flights that should be a prime slot.

That was never going to be viable.

Hopefully they will do better next time.
 
Begues
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:33 pm

It will take years just to be able to begin the demolition to make way for the actual construction. I give the new runway 5% chance to actually be built. Expect massive protests from the greens, violent riots, sabotage against construction equipment, political interference, international interference from the green movement, especially the growing anti airline industry. The global warming mass hysteria is reaching peak madness in the nordic and germanic countries with politicians suggesting new energy and environmental policies that make AOC and her green new deal look like childs play.

The only places in Europe where airport expansions including new runways are even feasible is in the east and south, Nordic countries, UK, France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Switzerland and Austria are all lost to environmental hysteria beyond all reason.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:01 pm

Delta UK doing what Delta US does best, bitch.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
grbauc
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:11 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
grbauc wrote:
Gingersnap wrote:
Well you what they say. Aim high.

It's not a totally unreasonable demand. The last thing we need at LHR is for IAG to receive the lion's share of the extra slots (which is probably the most likely scenario).


Well if other's are using them then good but UK /home teams should be given some priority and BA that is and has nourished LHR should get a Fair amount.

BA has proven they will use them. VS to some degree hasn't. Little red.


Little Red used remedy slots for EDI and ABZ, with MAN using VS' own slots, so either way they were limited as to what they could do. Little Red also used wet-leased planes from Aer Lingus which probably didn't help with the long-term viability of the concept along with reports of aircraft not always being full/heavily loaded, though I suspect the Aer Lingus involvement was just to get them off the ground relatively quickly with a view towards taking Little Red ops in house in the longer term if it was a success. Just because Little Red wasn't a success doesn't mean VS wouldn't be able to utilise more slots as I'm sure they can, both for long-haul and with Flybe (which frankly are perhaps better suited to operating domestic feeder flights to/from LHR than the first time round).


Very true. Others have stated that VS could of been working to get more slots this is a bit of PR and sympathy work for a possible slot allocation in the future. I'd like to see a bigger VS, but BA is going for it and doing what they need too do to expand and get more slots aka their earning it. VS can walk the talk and and get a viable plan would be nice to see.
I believe and would be surprised if VS didn't get a fair amount of slots.
 
grbauc
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:36 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Ionosphere wrote:
How would VS operated 75 more round trips a day? They failed horribly with Little Red.




The questions can be asked, if VS don't get a large share of the new slots, who should get them?
The ME3? Give me a break.
BA? BA would get a large share anyway, the fact is that BA has already been given much and there is a lot less BA can do with new slots than underdogs VS/DL.

In a UK outside the EU, aviation will play a major role in trade, employment and the general economy.
Yields or no yields, London needs a capacity boost, that is the reality.
BA will benefit for sure, but BA already has plenty of slots and they can boost capacity today through the use of larger aircraft.
VS can't do that without having enough slots for feeding and building a network.



Well put and some good points. I for sure believe VS should get a fair amount. The point still stands they haven't done the best job at keeping and acquiring slot opportunities in the past and or near past. It's a bit like a person that doesn't save money when he makes 50k a year saying oh but if I made a 100k a year id be a saver for sure. Best of luck to London and there ever long journey to getting another runway. What will happen first a Boeing Clean sheet NB or a 3rd runway at LHR.
 
Bongodog49
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:44 pm

Oh the irony, an airline owned entirely by DL from the USA, AF/KLM from France/Netherlands and a tax exile wants to be the UK's 2nd flag carrier. At least it is possible for UK citizens to purchase shares in the 1st flag carrier on the London stock exchange
 
ddp
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:57 pm

Is there a reason that they can't push to turn Gatwick into their hub and grow from there? Will business traffic not go there?

NYC United's hub is EWR and everyone else uses JFK. Can't there be something similar for London?
 
Themotionman
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:31 pm

ddp wrote:
Is there a reason that they can't push to turn Gatwick into their hub and grow from there? Will business traffic not go there?

NYC United's hub is EWR and everyone else uses JFK. Can't there be something similar for London?


Gatwick is also heavily runway constrained. Whilst it is true that slots are a lot cheaper at LGW, business customers overall prefer LHR. There seems to be a stigma around Gatwick with many Londoners still thinking of it as the bucket and spade airport. Looking at BA's LGW-JFK flight - one could call this a niche route compared to LHR-JFK as it primarily caters for South Londoners, Sussex, Kent, and bargain hunters.

Look at the route profile of VS at LGW and LHR
LHR
Atlanta
Boston
Delhi
Hong Kong
Johannesburg–O.R. Tambo
Lagos
Las Vegas
Los Angeles
Miami
Mumbai
New York–JFK
Newark
San Francisco
Seattle/Tacoma
Shanghai–Pudong
Tel Aviv–Ben Gurion
Washington–Dulles

LGW
Antigua
Barbados
Grenada
Havana
Montego Bay
Orlando
St. Lucia–Hewanorra
Tobago

Clearly there is a separation of leisure and business, with business traffic at LHR and leisure traffic at LGW
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:09 pm

Bongodog49 wrote:
Oh the irony, an airline owned entirely by DL from the USA, AF/KLM from France/Netherlands and a tax exile wants to be the UK's 2nd flag carrier. At least it is possible for UK citizens to purchase shares in the 1st flag carrier on the London stock exchange


The times where that was ironical are already behind us.

The Swiss, Austrian, Belgian flag carriers are owned by a German holding.
The 2nd Italian carrier is owned by Qatar and a shady stateless organisation.
Iberia is Spanish on paper but British and a bit Qatarese in reality.
KLM is Dutch solely on paper.
Don't get me started on SK.
 
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centrair
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:10 pm

Would love to have them back in Japan. I wanted to fly them when I flew to the UK in January.

With more efficient planes and options for slots opening in NRT (airlines shifting to HND) and possibly an option for HND, they could make it work. We have 2x daily from BA and JL and 1x from NH. I bet they could make it work with a 787-8/9.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
questions
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:14 pm

ddp wrote:
Is there a reason that they can't push to turn Gatwick into their hub and grow from there? Will business traffic not go there?

NYC United's hub is EWR and everyone else uses JFK. Can't there be something similar for London?


If LGW’s geographic placement was similar to EWR’s proximity to demand from Manhattan and Northern/Central NJ, LGW would be desirable.
 
Zidane
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:41 pm

What benefit would it be to VS if all London flying was shifted to LHR? Would this move also prompt BA to do the same?
 
jomur
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:38 am

Zidane wrote:
What benefit would it be to VS if all London flying was shifted to LHR? Would this move also prompt BA to do the same?


If BA could do it I suspect it would do it. BA would have done so already if it could get the slots and terminal space..
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:03 am

Themotionman wrote:
ddp wrote:
Is there a reason that they can't push to turn Gatwick into their hub and grow from there? Will business traffic not go there?

NYC United's hub is EWR and everyone else uses JFK. Can't there be something similar for London?


Gatwick is also heavily runway constrained. Whilst it is true that slots are a lot cheaper at LGW, business customers overall prefer LHR. There seems to be a stigma around Gatwick with many Londoners still thinking of it as the bucket and spade airport. Looking at BA's LGW-JFK flight - one could call this a niche route compared to LHR-JFK as it primarily caters for South Londoners, Sussex, Kent, and bargain hunters.

Look at the route profile of VS at LGW and LHR
LHR
Atlanta
Boston
Delhi
Hong Kong
Johannesburg–O.R. Tambo
Lagos
Las Vegas
Los Angeles
Miami
Mumbai
New York–JFK
Newark
San Francisco
Seattle/Tacoma
Shanghai–Pudong
Tel Aviv–Ben Gurion
Washington–Dulles

LGW
Antigua
Barbados
Grenada
Havana
Montego Bay
Orlando
St. Lucia–Hewanorra
Tobago

Clearly there is a separation of leisure and business, with business traffic at LHR and leisure traffic at LGW


I wouldn't necessarily class Las Vegas as a business route and that was moved over to LHR fairly recently. Some of the other routes you mention started life out of LGW in the early days of VS before they were able to get access to LHR.
 
Themotionman
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:18 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:25 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
Themotionman wrote:
ddp wrote:
Is there a reason that they can't push to turn Gatwick into their hub and grow from there? Will business traffic not go there?

NYC United's hub is EWR and everyone else uses JFK. Can't there be something similar for London?


Gatwick is also heavily runway constrained. Whilst it is true that slots are a lot cheaper at LGW, business customers overall prefer LHR. There seems to be a stigma around Gatwick with many Londoners still thinking of it as the bucket and spade airport. Looking at BA's LGW-JFK flight - one could call this a niche route compared to LHR-JFK as it primarily caters for South Londoners, Sussex, Kent, and bargain hunters.

Look at the route profile of VS at LGW and LHR
LHR
Atlanta
Boston
Delhi
Hong Kong
Johannesburg–O.R. Tambo
Lagos
Las Vegas
Los Angeles
Miami
Mumbai
New York–JFK
Newark
San Francisco
Seattle/Tacoma
Shanghai–Pudong
Tel Aviv–Ben Gurion
Washington–Dulles

LGW
Antigua
Barbados
Grenada
Havana
Montego Bay
Orlando
St. Lucia–Hewanorra
Tobago

Clearly there is a separation of leisure and business, with business traffic at LHR and leisure traffic at LGW


I wouldn't necessarily class Las Vegas as a business route and that was moved over to LHR fairly recently. Some of the other routes you mention started life out of LGW in the early days of VS before they were able to get access to LHR.


I accept that Las Vegas is the exception to the rule.. however Las Vegas is considered the convention and conference capital of the world so there is still a fair amount of business traffic on that route.
 
SelseyBill
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:38 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:59 am

GCT64 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
auction the slots, VS shouldn't be given slots just because they demand them. And some should be kept around for new entrants.


That's the logical approach if demand exceeds supply - auction the slots to the highest bidder and use the money to help pay for the runway and infrastructure improvements.


The problem with that is EK, QR and some of the Chinese carriers would pay in pure gold bullion, and you'd end up with a half-hourly frequency to Doha and Dubai. That's not why Heathrow is being expanded and developed...... inter-continental expansion; yes, but not solely to the UAE........
 
SelseyBill
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:38 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:23 am

Sydscott wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
All HOT AIR from VS.... they had the opportunity with chance to purchase BD......
Also, pretty sure VS still lease out some slots....?

Anyhow , DL call the shots now, not windbag SRB


Couldn't agree more! The fact that EK, QR, EY, CX and a litany of other airlines have been able to expand their slot holdings at LHR over the years and that VS has done nothing but miss opportunities to buy slots and then whinge about it all later says everything about VS. Rent seekers and free loaders should not be rewarded with more slots, they should go to airlines with a proven ability to utilise them and provide maximum public benefit. If that is IAG then so be it.


....spot on.

Im tired of VS whinging about BA's 'monopoly' at LHR. Compared to who exactly?

Look at what Branson did with his railway enterprise 'Virgin Trains'. He negotiated a 'no competition' clause into his rail franchise, and then introduced eye-watering rail fares in what was a 'monopoly' situation. His rail service is very good....but very, very expensive at times. His railway company went on to take on the east coast rail service, but couldn't make it work, because there was so much competition; (oh, the irony). As was, 'Virgin Trains' was a licence to print cash; and as a privately owned company, Branson saw every last penny of profit himself.

We should all stop being so 'dewey-eyed' about VS. They've had plenty of opportunities to expand @ LHR in the past and the cash to do it; but they've dropped the ball every time. Branson was good friends with John Bishop at British Midland and could have had BD for relatively next to nothing, but he wanted a VS/BD 'merger' under the VS brand, and wanted it for free. BA offered LH quite a low price, but succeeded because at least they offered LH something. Thus we end up with LHR-AUS/BNA/MSY/PIT/SJC etc etc.

I challenge the notion that VS is somehow 'Britains 2nd flag carrier'.

They are 'Delta-UK'. They are 'Delta-East'. I love Delta; they're my #1 US airline and I love flying them; but we shouldn't consider VS @ LHR as anything else now other than another Delta hub. Before VS starts to make ultimatums about how many slots they can demand when and if R3 is built, perhaps we should have a look at the % of slots DL has at ATL/ the % of slots AF has at CDG/ the % of slots of slots KL has at AMS/ the % of slots EK, QR and UA have at their home airports, and make sure that BA/IAG has the average number of home slots that each of these aviation giants enjoys at their home hubs.

At least BA has utilised their slot allocation reasonably well over the years; which is more than you can say about VS.
Last edited by SelseyBill on Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
SelseyBill
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:38 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:27 am

post duplicated
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4985
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:45 am

questions wrote:
What’s a ballpark figure as to how many aircraft VS would have to order to utilize 150 slots?

If they're out AND back slots? 75 at a minimum not accounting for airplanes in checks, repair etc. More like 80.
 
SelseyBill
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:38 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:54 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
........and there is a lot less BA can do with new slots than underdogs VS/DL.

Really? Have you not noticed all those new and re-introduced routes too long to list that BA have successfully launched since they acquired the BD portfolio? The LHR brass I have spoken to over recent years are more than happy with what BA have done with the ex-BD slots which has included some enhanced domestic flying and new links to LBA and INV. This all in the face of huge rail competition from, errrrr 'Virgin Trains'? I would suggest that BA should be awarded 60ish% of the new slots precisely because they have illustrated they can utilise them. All VS has done is to bemoan their misfortune, and then proceed to rent out some of their slots.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
........BA will benefit for sure, but BA already has plenty of slots and they can boost capacity today through the use of larger aircraft.
VS can't do that without having enough slots for feeding and buiding a network.

I fail to see on what reasoning VS comes across with this 'sense of entitlement'. VS are a Delta subsidiary. Good luck to Delta; they are a great company, but VS only deserves the same % share of total LHR slots that VS/Skyteam companies currently hold at LHR. Same applies to Star too.

Wonder what DL's reaction would be if BA demanded 150 slots @ Hartsfield for a company that was hypothetically 49% owned by BA?
 
ewt340
Posts: 1271
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:12 am

This is a good thing. BA get extremely lazy since early 2000. They refused to improve their services because they got no competition. With VS growing, BA would be forced to be more competitive.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4813
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:22 am

musman9853 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
No, Boris is REALLY against Heathrow expansion, it caused him no end of grief as a cabinet member in May’s govt, but it’s finally moving ahead thankfully.


with him being the most likely next british PM, i wonder if there's anything he can to do to stymie it?


I was convinced he'd cancel it BUT it seems as if that's not gonna happen. Too much steam behind it now that it has gone through Parliament and been passed with a big majority. Boris has bigger problems with Brexit and holding onto his seat which is very tight now. He has backtracked recently and when asked avoids the question. The bigger worry is the Climate Emergency Eco-Loons whose religious zeal means the law of the land can be set aside in defiance.
 
axiom
Posts: 901
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:39 am

As an “eco-loon” (thanks to those who continue to degrade the quality of discourse here), I must put the environment before my hobby — I’m hoping the project gets killed. But if it goes forward, I can’t help but agree with folks who argue that the new slots should be auctioned to the highest bidder. Use that value created by the public to fund new public infrastructure, for example. A modest compromise: plow that money into infrastructure which reduces carbon. It’s a bandaid bargain, but at least it’s something.

Aside: I have a PhD and I work with climate scientists, and I can’t help but be really distressed by the poor understanding of the magnitude of the environmental problem posed by climate change that persists on this board. It makes sense, given that it’s an aviation site, but c’mon, folks.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4813
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:25 pm

There's a wider credibility problem with climate change, as for political purposes, things get conflated to advance agendas.
Climate has never been static, so the term "climate change" is actually a useless one. "Man made" climate change makes more sense but the context of the global cooling scares of the 70s and Al Gore's predictions of doom which failed to come to pass means there's a credibility problem regardless of your pHD status.
The latest "eco-loon" idea is that the UK should pay more in tax and repartations as the industrial revolution began here and we should own the consequences, though only the bad ones.

We need to look at the biggest problems and drivers of pollution (i.e. China and the developing world) and tackle that filthy and growing problem head on. How much of the Amazon is being deforested every day? Let's dial that back. Let's stop dumping rubbish in rivers full stop. All brilliant green ideas I support.
EcoLoons, IMHO,have on mantra, travel less and pay more tax, and that ignore that war and devastation happens on the whole much less as we all travel more and get to know each other.
Common and affordable air travel is one of THE best ways of keeping the peace, inward investment demands frequent connectivity in a competitive market.

Details matter, so when you want to "reduce Carbon", I really hope you mean "reduce CO2", and I also hope you realise that we need CO2 in the atmosphere.
Also remember that one perfectly natural volcanic eruption will dwarf the totality of humanities attempts to reduce CO2.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... or-humans/

The Green agenda, and I mean the left wing political agenda in the UK, is all about control and taxing hard working families more. Greta Thunberg has proved to me this is all getting a bit religious in it's tone, all very Joan of Arc. I don't actually think LHR R3 will happen, the Environmenalists will break the ;aw until the courts eventually back them as the zeitgeist is shaped by the current "climate emergency" in a political discourse dominated by zealots.

Anyhoo back to Delta UK, er I mean Virgin Atlantic
 
axiom
Posts: 901
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:56 pm

I agree that we should focus on pollution and peace building, and I agree that, for better or worse, this issue - like any issue - will be filtered through political systems and debates about fairness. But I’m not going to engage with someone who refers to a very sound environmental policy as an eco-loon. And I’m not going to address the “but the climate is always changing” argument — this is a clear signal that you don’t understand the scientific basis of the conversation. I would be happy to engage in a deeper conversation about that, but only in good faith. Calling people zealots and other names, and dismissing science is very, very alarming. We can’t have grounded policy debates over how best to manage the problem (eg build or don’t build LHR3; tax carbon on dev, etc) if we choose to reject the scientific basis underpinning it.
 
SelseyBill
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:38 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:13 pm

ewt340 wrote:
This is a good thing. BA get extremely lazy since early 2000. They refused to improve their services because they got no competition. With VS growing, BA would be forced to be more competitive.


What routes do you have in mind where BA had no competition?
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4813
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:28 pm

axiom wrote:
I agree that we should focus on pollution and peace building, and I agree that, for better or worse, this issue - like any issue - will be filtered through political systems and debates about fairness. But I’m not going to engage with someone who refers to a very sound environmental policy as an eco-loon. And I’m not going to address the “but the climate is always changing” argument — this is a clear signal that you don’t understand the scientific basis of the conversation. I would be happy to engage in a deeper conversation about that, but only in good faith. Calling people zealots and other names, and dismissing science is very, very alarming. We can’t have grounded policy debates over how best to manage the problem (eg build or don’t build LHR3; tax carbon on dev, etc) if we choose to reject the scientific basis underpinning it.

We seem to forget our climate is always changing, the context of this is the key point. The Thames used to freeze in winter, there were markets held, something that Caroline Lucas would shriek was the fault of <insert favourite reason to increase tax> but in reality was driven wholly by nature. Of course man has changed the dynamics since the industrial revolution but if ONE volcanic eruption (in a world history of many!) can wipe out the totality of human attempts to "de-carbonise", then I believe the fear-mongers are over-stating the risk for political gain. Many of these people are zealots as they fit the personality profile of tribal politics, there are many who fall into that pseudo-religous mindset of believers vs. deniers. Believe me, Brexit has been an abject lesson in human behavior. A sizeble % of people need the climate to be damaged or the economy to suffer as we leave the EU, mainly because we as a species cannot deal well with our world view being shown up as wrong.
Well off topic and I bet this gets deleted.

BTW Worth asking whatever happened to Virgin's biofuel powered B747 project, they really do well int he PR game,



Not being funny but you got Carbon and CO2 mixed up so mind your head getting off that high horse....
Last edited by skipness1E on Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
axiom
Posts: 901
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic demands 150 slots at expanded Heathrow airport

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:33 pm

skipness1E wrote:
axiom wrote:
I agree that we should focus on pollution and peace building, and I agree that, for better or worse, this issue - like any issue - will be filtered through political systems and debates about fairness. But I’m not going to engage with someone who refers to a very sound environmental policy as an eco-loon. And I’m not going to address the “but the climate is always changing” argument — this is a clear signal that you don’t understand the scientific basis of the conversation. I would be happy to engage in a deeper conversation about that, but only in good faith. Calling people zealots and other names, and dismissing science is very, very alarming. We can’t have grounded policy debates over how best to manage the problem (eg build or don’t build LHR3; tax carbon on dev, etc) if we choose to reject the scientific basis underpinning it.

Not being funny but you got Carbon and CO2 mixed up so mind your head getting off that high horse....


No, I didn’t.

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