aa87
Topic Author
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:37 am

Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:42 am

Anyone know why Emirates 209 did a go around at EWR ? I saw it 20 miles west, couldn't figure out if it was dep or arrival, looked it up. Just curious, thanks.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:46 am

Go around happen for all kinds of reasons, you’d have to listen to ATC recordings for find someone involved.
 
m007j
Posts: 117
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Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:13 am

According to the ATC recording, EK209 stated that they were "too high."
 
aa87
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Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:45 am

Thanks m007j, I looked up the audio now. .I was curious since rare to see a heavy low and heading north in my neighborhood, I suspected a go around and looked up on flightaware.

Interesting, CAVU, beautiful night, obviously safety comes first, but does the crew have to file a report with the front office to explain unforced go around ? I'm guessing some other crews would have requested reduced airspeed to bleed off altitude, curious why they didn't try that first, but obviously crew knew best to just take a walk around the block ..
 
mhockey31091
Posts: 56
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Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:51 am

aa87 wrote:
Thanks m007j, I looked up the audio now. .I was curious since rare to see a heavy low and heading north in my neighborhood, I suspected a go around and looked up on flightaware.

Interesting, CAVU, beautiful night, obviously safety comes first, but does the crew have to file a report with the front office to explain unforced go around ? I'm guessing some other crews would have requested reduced airspeed to bleed off altitude, curious why they didn't try that first, but obviously crew knew best to just take a walk around the block ..

Trying to slow down could be what got them high in the first place, if you don't descend and are trying to bleed off airspeed you aren't losing altitude and get way above the glideslope and can never catch up. Never flown a heavy but I can imagine it would be similar to most Jets, they're slippery and you can slow down or go down but not both at the same time.
 
CplKlinger
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Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:53 am

Without being there in the cockpit, it's hard to say why they did what they did. It could be any number of things that caused it, but the bottom line is this: the pilots recognized things weren't just right, and kept it safe by going around. Why try and Monday morning quarterback that decision? They did the right thing to safely complete the flight. I don't get the obession with second guessing go arounds on this site, like they're some kind of dangerous, scary thing. They happen every day, at probably 60% of all major airports. It's not a big deal.
 
Longhornmaniac
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Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:15 am

They probably got slam dunked. NY Tracon loves to keep you at 250 until they clear you for the approach. Makes for a lot of fun trying to get down and slow down.
Cheers,
Cameron
 
ethernal
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Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:21 am

CplKlinger wrote:
Without being there in the cockpit, it's hard to say why they did what they did. It could be any number of things that caused it, but the bottom line is this: the pilots recognized things weren't just right, and kept it safe by going around. Why try and Monday morning quarterback that decision? They did the right thing to safely complete the flight. I don't get the obession with second guessing go arounds on this site, like they're some kind of dangerous, scary thing. They happen every day, at probably 60% of all major airports. It's not a big deal.


Agreed. Maybe there was a screwup that created the situation they were in, but would much rather have EK do this than have another easily preventable OZ214.
 
djvalume
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Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:50 am

mhockey31091 wrote:
. Never flown a heavy but I can imagine it would be similar to most Jets, they're slippery and you can slow down or go down but not both at the same time.


Actually you can, Normally on the A320/A321 we do Flaps 2 and speed 180-185-ish combined with speed brakes and gear down if you really need it... but it depends on a lot of things, such as weight, wind (ie. tailwind), altitude to be "lost", distance to go, etc... I always tell my trainees about the Airbus that when it's heavy it doesn't want to slow down, when it's light it doesn't want to go down, and when you're in between it doesn't want to do either... I would venture that these characteristics aren't much different from a 777 or any other aerodynamically efficient jet.

but then again, after a 12 hour + flight, you're not going to push it... you're going to take the easy way out: go around and try again
 
aa87
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Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:00 am

CplKlinger wrote:
Why try and Monday morning quarterback that decision? They did the right thing to safely complete the flight. I don't get the obession with second guessing go arounds on this site, like they're some kind of dangerous, scary thing. They happen every day, at probably 60% of all major airports. It's not a big deal.


Relax, no Monday am quarterbacking and no obsession. Its called asking questions. Just saw the outcome of an unusual go around in my neighborhood and some of us are here merely bc of passion for flying and desire to connect with professionals. I know go arounds are largely routine and key factor in exceptional safety record all around, was just wondering if it has to be explainied to front office or not (and no one asnwered that).
 
11C
Posts: 22
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Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:40 am

djvalume wrote:
mhockey31091 wrote:
. Never flown a heavy but I can imagine it would be similar to most Jets, they're slippery and you can slow down or go down but not both at the same time.


Actually you can, Normally on the A320/A321 we do Flaps 2 and speed 180-185-ish combined with speed brakes and gear down if you really need it... but it depends on a lot of things, such as weight, wind (ie. tailwind), altitude to be "lost", distance to go, etc... I always tell my trainees about the Airbus that when it's heavy it doesn't want to slow down, when it's light it doesn't want to go down, and when you're in between it doesn't want to do either... I would venture that these characteristics aren't much different from a 777 or any other aerodynamically efficient jet.

but then again, after a 12 hour + flight, you're not going to push it... you're going to take the easy way out: go around and try again


I would argue the “when it’s light it doesn’t want to go down” part, and I’m sure many others would, too. Way to mess over the trainees!

I would also add that I’ve never heard of anyone having to answer for a properly executed go-around.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:20 am

Well I don’t think it’s a go around on departure
 
djvalume
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:09 pm

Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:53 am

11C wrote:
djvalume wrote:
mhockey31091 wrote:
. Never flown a heavy but I can imagine it would be similar to most Jets, they're slippery and you can slow down or go down but not both at the same time.


Actually you can, Normally on the A320/A321 we do Flaps 2 and speed 180-185-ish combined with speed brakes and gear down if you really need it... but it depends on a lot of things, such as weight, wind (ie. tailwind), altitude to be "lost", distance to go, etc... I always tell my trainees about the Airbus that when it's heavy it doesn't want to slow down, when it's light it doesn't want to go down, and when you're in between it doesn't want to do either... I would venture that these characteristics aren't much different from a 777 or any other aerodynamically efficient jet.

but then again, after a 12 hour + flight, you're not going to push it... you're going to take the easy way out: go around and try again


I would argue the “when it’s light it doesn’t want to go down” part, and I’m sure many others would, too. Way to mess over the trainees!

I would also add that I’ve never heard of anyone having to answer for a properly executed go-around.



I see you're point. I assumed it was obvious, but I should've probably mentioned that it was in regard to idle descents and energy management in order to raise a/c behavioral awareness

Point taken :)
 
11C
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:57 pm

djvalume wrote:
11C wrote:
djvalume wrote:

Actually you can, Normally on the A320/A321 we do Flaps 2 and speed 180-185-ish combined with speed brakes and gear down if you really need it... but it depends on a lot of things, such as weight, wind (ie. tailwind), altitude to be "lost", distance to go, etc... I always tell my trainees about the Airbus that when it's heavy it doesn't want to slow down, when it's light it doesn't want to go down, and when you're in between it doesn't want to do either... I would venture that these characteristics aren't much different from a 777 or any other aerodynamically efficient jet.

but then again, after a 12 hour + flight, you're not going to push it... you're going to take the easy way out: go around and try again


I would argue the “when it’s light it doesn’t want to go down” part, and I’m sure many others would, too. Way to mess over the trainees!

I would also add that I’ve never heard of anyone having to answer for a properly executed go-around.



I see you're point. I assumed it was obvious, but I should've probably mentioned that it was in regard to idle descents and energy management in order to raise a/c behavioral awareness

Point taken :)


I assumed you were talking about idle descents and energy management. My point, and I should have been clearer, is that a 120,000 pound A320 (just for an example) can descend at a greater rate of descent at a given speed (say 300 kias) compared to a 140,000 pound A320. There are many articles on this, but just flying the airplane around for a while will drive the point home.
 
CplKlinger
Posts: 326
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Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:18 am

aa87 wrote:
CplKlinger wrote:
Why try and Monday morning quarterback that decision? They did the right thing to safely complete the flight. I don't get the obession with second guessing go arounds on this site, like they're some kind of dangerous, scary thing. They happen every day, at probably 60% of all major airports. It's not a big deal.


Relax, no Monday am quarterbacking and no obsession. Its called asking questions. Just saw the outcome of an unusual go around in my neighborhood and some of us are here merely bc of passion for flying and desire to connect with professionals. I know go arounds are largely routine and key factor in exceptional safety record all around, was just wondering if it has to be explainied to front office or not (and no one asnwered that).



Not trying to be all apoplectic about this, but lately there's been a lot of threads about "scary" go arounds that when you get down to it are simply routine. I shouldn't have called you out on this, you were simply asking a halfway reasonable question compared to others. I'll stand corrected on this one.

As for reporting it, I'm sure that something will be noted, but not necessarily to the front office. Safety culture starts with the front office trusting the pilots to make the right decisions. Sure, they probably had to note what happened, but I would imagine that it goes no further than that. A simple "Hey, situation X happened, we did maneuver Y per proceedure Z." The second you make pilots have to second guess what will be thought of their decisions, you chip away at the culture of safety. If they do something dumb and unsafe, sure, drop the hammer. And nothing wrong with them keeping track to see if there are trends in issues with pilots that need to be addressed. But in this case, just note it and keep moving.
 
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TOGA10
Posts: 251
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Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:42 am

CplKlinger wrote:
aa87 wrote:
CplKlinger wrote:
Why try and Monday morning quarterback that decision? They did the right thing to safely complete the flight. I don't get the obession with second guessing go arounds on this site, like they're some kind of dangerous, scary thing. They happen every day, at probably 60% of all major airports. It's not a big deal.


Relax, no Monday am quarterbacking and no obsession. Its called asking questions. Just saw the outcome of an unusual go around in my neighborhood and some of us are here merely bc of passion for flying and desire to connect with professionals. I know go arounds are largely routine and key factor in exceptional safety record all around, was just wondering if it has to be explainied to front office or not (and no one asnwered that).



As for reporting it, I'm sure that something will be noted, but not necessarily to the front office. Safety culture starts with the front office trusting the pilots to make the right decisions. Sure, they probably had to note what happened, but I would imagine that it goes no further than that. A simple "Hey, situation X happened, we did maneuver Y per proceedure Z." The second you make pilots have to second guess what will be thought of their decisions, you chip away at the culture of safety. If they do something dumb and unsafe, sure, drop the hammer. And nothing wrong with them keeping track to see if there are trends in issues with pilots that need to be addressed. But in this case, just note it and keep moving.

I think you are right. A quick report, stating the reason and thats the end of it. Guys in the training departement use these report and trends to beter train and prepare pilots for these situations and where necessary adjust procedures. It's all part of the safety culture to write a report, normally if all the SOPs were followed only a 'good job' will be reported back from the office.
Love flying, hate the alarm at 3 in the morning, love watching the sun rise at 5:30. It's all about compromises.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 11838
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Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:25 am

ethernal wrote:
CplKlinger wrote:
Without being there in the cockpit, it's hard to say why they did what they did. It could be any number of things that caused it, but the bottom line is this: the pilots recognized things weren't just right, and kept it safe by going around. Why try and Monday morning quarterback that decision? They did the right thing to safely complete the flight. I don't get the obession with second guessing go arounds on this site, like they're some kind of dangerous, scary thing. They happen every day, at probably 60% of all major airports. It's not a big deal.


Agreed. Maybe there was a screwup that created the situation they were in, but would much rather have EK do this than have another easily preventable OZ214.


Or another EK521 !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
emiratesdriver
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:04 pm

Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:07 pm

aa87 wrote:
Thanks m007j, I looked up the audio now. .I was curious since rare to see a heavy low and heading north in my neighborhood, I suspected a go around and looked up on flightaware.

Interesting, CAVU, beautiful night, obviously safety comes first, but does the crew have to file a report with the front office to explain unforced go around ? I'm guessing some other crews would have requested reduced airspeed to bleed off altitude, curious why they didn't try that first, but obviously crew knew best to just take a walk around the block ..


Company restrictions

5000fpm ROD to 5000 AAL
3000fpm ROD from 5000-3000 AAL
2000fpm ROD from 3000-1000 AAL
1000fpm ROD to touchdown unless otherwise briefed.

At EK if you initiate a GA at 1000 AAL or above there is no requirement to submit a report unless there is a safety issue.

American ATC can be particularly problematic when it comes to issuing realistic instructions, for example when on the 777, I was instructed at SFO to not overtake the the landing A320 on the parallel, trouble is my Vapp was 156kts v the 320 doing about 125kts....so just not possible when only 1/2 a mile behind on approach.
It’s indicative of the US system geared more to narrow bodies and CRJs rather than larger heavier Jets.
 
TMccrury
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:24 am

Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:24 pm

I was on an SAA A330 into IAD a couple of yeas back and we had to go around because ATC vectored us in to close and to high. The Pilot was not happy. After we were off the plane and working our way through immigration/customs, he told me because of the poor vectors, it put us to high and to fast.
 
DualQual
Posts: 701
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:10 pm

Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:46 pm

The only report I’d have to file for a go around would be a safety report and only because it was some external factor that I had no control over that caused the go around (runway incursion, etc). And in that case the report is more about identifying and fixing a potential systemic issue that degrades safety. My operator had a big push a bit ago about going around out of unstable approaches. In other words, they’re more concerned with us landing out of a screwed up approach than going around.

So short answer, no company that has an ingrained safety culture is going to care or question a go around decision. If an operator out there requires a report on a go around, that’s not an airline I want to set foot on.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
worldranger
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: Emirates 209 Tonight - Go Around ?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:39 pm

They received a false GS, which guided a steeper than STD pitch down, correction attempted visually & looked good..GS came back and it showed aircraft above GS .... None in Flight Deck felt great about it, plenty of fuel, went around, came back landed no issues.

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