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JerseyFlyer
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Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:54 am

If the purchase and conversion costs are cheap enough, IAG CEO is quoted as saying they would be interested in another 6 for BA. That matches the number of RR 380s to be traded back to Airbus from LH. We know that Airbus's competing offer to IAG when they ordered B779s was a mix of new and used 380s together with 350s, Airbus was likely aware of LH's plans at that time and may have proposed sourcing up to 6 used examples from LH (or of course MH).

"Separately, the carrier is looking at adding more second-hand A380-800s. IAG International Airlines Group CEO Willie Walsh told aeroTELEGRAPH that the group "would definitely think about it".

"If we get them for the right price. The biggest problem is the cost of refurbishment, which is quite high. We have to be sure that we can do it in ways that make it worthwhile, and then it will be a topic. We currently have twelve A380s in British Airways' fleet and I can imagine eighteen. Six more Airbus A380s would make sense," Walsh said.

The carrier's twelve A380-800s are 5.2 years old on average. Walsh underlined that the group is not looking at adding the A380s for any other airline."

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... 0s-by-ye20
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:14 am

Airbus offered second hand A380’s as part of their proposal for BA’s last widebody-RFP just a few months ago. BA’s CEO commented later on:

An Airbus offer of new and used A380s to British Airways in its recent widebody competition "did not even come close" to the winning Boeing bid of 777Xs, the airline's chief executive Alex Cruz has revealed.

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... pe-457443/

Will be interesting to see if Airbus and BA can agree on a price this time.
 
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Slash787
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:19 am

Airbus was offering used A380's to BA from which Airline?
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:20 am

JerseyFlyer wrote:
CEO Willie Walsh told aeroTELEGRAPH

Another interesting Quote from the original article:
Two years ago Walsh had talked about the A380 potentially flying for Aer Lingus or Iberia. Now he says, that the superjumbo works «principally for British Airways», because it is made for markets with high volumes and slot constraints. «For Aer Lingus, the A321 is a better Aircraft because we can get into multiple frequencies.»

A321's instead of A380's - so the A321XLR IS a game changer! ;)

Source: https://www.aerotelegraph.com/en/britis ... irbus-a380
 
Arion640
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:23 am

If they are practically given away i’m sure BA will take them.
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:23 am

The source material seems to be: https://www.aerotelegraph.com/en/britis ... irbus-a380

The article is new, but there's not much context around the quotes, such as the date or location where they were made.

If this is new info, it's interesting that he's still talking up used A380s.

This would undermine a lot of theories that he was talking about A380s just to lower the price of the 779s he ordered.

Airbus will be buying back a tranche of LH birds with RR engines.

Maybe Airbus will rework them to BA standards and sell them on to BA?

Personally I think it'd be a bad decision for both Airbus and BA since they will become more and more expensive to maintain with no hope of meaningful PIPs.

However, I'll demur to WW and presume he knows exactly what prices he needs to make it work.
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:31 am

With the tight slot space at LHR, demand from certain routes, and if the numbers can work, it would make some sense for IAG/BA to consider purchasing used A380's. If come from LH, they are likely to be excellently maintained, thus limiting refurb costs and they won't conflict with LH's business. There are some factors that could kill this deal including 'Brexit', a likely significant international recession in the next year or so, fuel prices going up and inability to fly over certain areas due to hostilities in the Middle East, competition from the ME3.
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:31 am

The 6 A380s which LH will return are going back to Airbus, aren't they? So I believe these were already part of the package Airbus offered as used A380s to BA, and were too expensive still. Of course, Airbus may try to sell these again, for a lower price, and not as part of a total package including new aircraft. But is it also not impossible MH will try selling their 6 A380s again? Maybe MH realises it's better to sell these below booking value, instead of letting them sit idle somewhere.
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:35 am

A380 also works well on routes between airports that are not particularly slot constrained but require high number of premium seats at a particular time.
 
jumpjets
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:40 am

This does start to sound like a bit of a cracked record - the same message coming back round and round but not getting anywhere.

I would like to see them buy more A380s so maybe IAG could cut a deal with Lufthansa direct and get them for less than Airbus had wanted but more than Airbus were paying Lufthansa - every one wins, Lufthansa gets a bit more, IAG pays a bit less and Airbus doesn't have 6 used A380s on their hands. Just a thought.
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:43 am

I have to assume that the cost to refurbish the A380 is so high that even Airbus does not want to perform that job. I guess my question would be are there secondary carriers who would not mind operating an A380 with a generic interior versus custom. The cost of refurbishment of the physical structure is high, a custom interior put the price out of the reach for many.

I guess the big question is how much money is available in support of this unique a/c to allow Airbus to invest in a refurbishment center and recoup over time, new build are done, any money in the secondary market?
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:54 pm

I don't know. Alex Cruz is a cheap man. Just look at how unwilling he is to spend money by the state of British airways service now.

carsten spohr is also not a smart man for letting go an aircraft with the potential to make money.
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:57 pm

frigatebird wrote:
The 6 A380s which LH will return are going back to Airbus, aren't they?

Correct:
German operator Lufthansa Group has signed a deal with Airbus for 20 additional A350-900 wide-body aircraft worth just under £5bn.

The new deal brings Lufthansa’s total orders for the A350 XWB to 45 with 12 aircraft already in operation around the world.

Lufthansa has said it is selling six of its 14 A380 superjumbos back to Airbus in 2022 and 2023 at it looks at replacing four-engine aircraft with new twin-engine models.

The airline said it is “continuously reviewing the profitability of its worldwide route network. Therefore, the Lufthansa Group is reducing the number of its Airbus A380 fleet from 14 aircraft to eight for economic reasons.”

Source: http://www.deeside.com/airbus-lufthansa ... ane-maker/

jumpjets wrote:
This does start to sound like a bit of a cracked record - the same message coming back round and round but not getting anywhere.

That's what I meant further above. Your comparison is nicer than mine, though...
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:15 pm

I am ready to bet that this time maybe the good people at Airbus will be working behind thin-veiled curtains in order to make the transaction happen, as part of a bigger deal.... wishful thinking? mmm...maybe not so much.
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:05 pm

"right price " and "the cost of refurbishment"
looks like a recycled old story
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:05 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
If the purchase and conversion costs are cheap enough, IAG CEO is quoted as saying they would be interested in another 6 for BA. That matches the number of RR 380s to be traded back to Airbus from LH. We know that Airbus's competing offer to IAG when they ordered B779s was a mix of new and used 380s together with 350s, Airbus was likely aware of LH's plans at that time and may have proposed sourcing up to 6 used examples from LH (or of course MH).

"Separately, the carrier is looking at adding more second-hand A380-800s. IAG International Airlines Group CEO Willie Walsh told aeroTELEGRAPH that the group "would definitely think about it".

"If we get them for the right price. The biggest problem is the cost of refurbishment, which is quite high. We have to be sure that we can do it in ways that make it worthwhile, and then it will be a topic. We currently have twelve A380s in British Airways' fleet and I can imagine eighteen. Six more Airbus A380s would make sense," Walsh said.

The carrier's twelve A380-800s are 5.2 years old on average. Walsh underlined that the group is not looking at adding the A380s for any other airline."

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... 0s-by-ye20

If there is any airport where the A380 makes sense, it is LHR. At least if they do not add slots. If they can take two flights and combine into one A380 it is well worth it.
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:13 pm

jumpjets wrote:
I would like to see them buy more A380s so maybe IAG could cut a deal with Lufthansa direct and get them for less than Airbus had wanted but more than Airbus were paying Lufthansa - every one wins, Lufthansa gets a bit more, IAG pays a bit less and Airbus doesn't have 6 used A380s on their hands. Just a thought.


This scenario seems highly unlikely. No doubt Lufthansa has a guaranteed buyback price offered by Airbus, and if they had any inkling that IAG were willing to pay more than Airbus, the deal would have already been done directly between the two airline groups. I expect that the 6 A380s being returned to Airbus were very likely the exact same ones which had been offered to IAG/BA in the deal which was rejected in favor of the 777X order. I also expect that Airbus was already willing to eat some losses on that deal to (1) make some profit on A350s sold to IAG and (2) remove non-performing assets from the books which will likely be worth little more than scrap value at the time LH sells them back to Airbus.

Revelation wrote:
Airbus will be buying back a tranche of LH birds with RR engines.

Maybe Airbus will rework them to BA standards and sell them on to BA?

Personally I think it'd be a bad decision for both Airbus and BA since they will become more and more expensive to maintain with no hope of meaningful PIPs.


Well, I think it's ultimately a good decision for Airbus to sell the future-ex-LH A380s to any willing buyer which is willing to pay more than scrap value; after all, the secondhand market for A380s is troubled at best and these will be assets which tie up capital without producing any revenue. It might be worthwhile to eat a modest loss (vs. scrap) if placing the frames with a buyer helps to guarantee a stream of revenue for parts and service later.
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:57 pm

Revelation wrote:
This would undermine a lot of theories that he was talking about A380s just to lower the price of the 779s he ordered.

Talking point confusion. He got a lower price on the 779s because of the 737 MAXs he "maybe is or isn't getting because BCA needed some good pub".

Until we hear from multiple credible sources that this is New News, grains of salt should be taken. But if true, it certainly is fascinating.
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:13 pm

enilria wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
If the purchase and conversion costs are cheap enough, IAG CEO is quoted as saying they would be interested in another 6 for BA. That matches the number of RR 380s to be traded back to Airbus from LH. We know that Airbus's competing offer to IAG when they ordered B779s was a mix of new and used 380s together with 350s, Airbus was likely aware of LH's plans at that time and may have proposed sourcing up to 6 used examples from LH (or of course MH).

"Separately, the carrier is looking at adding more second-hand A380-800s. IAG International Airlines Group CEO Willie Walsh told aeroTELEGRAPH that the group "would definitely think about it".

"If we get them for the right price. The biggest problem is the cost of refurbishment, which is quite high. We have to be sure that we can do it in ways that make it worthwhile, and then it will be a topic. We currently have twelve A380s in British Airways' fleet and I can imagine eighteen. Six more Airbus A380s would make sense," Walsh said.

The carrier's twelve A380-800s are 5.2 years old on average. Walsh underlined that the group is not looking at adding the A380s for any other airline."

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... 0s-by-ye20

If there is any airport where the A380 makes sense, it is LHR. At least if they do not add slots. If they can take two flights and combine into one A380 it is well worth it.


It's not necessary to take two flights to combine into 1 if there is unmet demand, but it's an option indeed.
When HND opens up to the A380 next year ahead of the olympics, BA's daily B777 flight should certainly be replaced by an A380, and the daily low yield B787 NRT flight could then disappear.
It makes sense and would keep 1.5 A380's busy.
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:27 pm

par13del wrote:
I have to assume that the cost to refurbish the A380 is so high that even Airbus does not want to perform that job. I guess my question would be are there secondary carriers who would not mind operating an A380 with a generic interior versus custom. The cost of refurbishment of the physical structure is high, a custom interior put the price out of the reach for many.

I guess the big question is how much money is available in support of this unique a/c to allow Airbus to invest in a refurbishment center and recoup over time, new build are done, any money in the secondary market?


yeah, BA estimated that it would cost between 30 and 50 million pounds per airframe to convert it to a BA interior spec. that's untenable.
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:34 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
I don't know. Alex Cruz is a cheap man. Just look at how unwilling he is to spend money by the state of British airways service now.

carsten spohr is also not a smart man for letting go an aircraft with the potential to make money.


You obviously don't travel much with BA so wont have noticed the steady roll out of improvements under way.
If your comment is based on short haul Y buy on board catering well also look at the fares. And how others are coming to terms with poor or absent short haul profitability and finding ways to respond...
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:47 pm

mutu wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
I don't know. Alex Cruz is a cheap man. Just look at how unwilling he is to spend money by the state of British airways service now.

carsten spohr is also not a smart man for letting go an aircraft with the potential to make money.


You obviously don't travel much with BA so wont have noticed the steady roll out of improvements under way.
If your comment is based on short haul Y buy on board catering well also look at the fares. And how others are coming to terms with poor or absent short haul profitability and finding ways to respond...


There are no improvements whatsoever.
B777 going to 10-abreast, 12 hours on 9Y B787's, catering on long haul edible but far from delicious, tired B747 cabins, lounge services barely keeping up with the rest of the world, short haul Marks Expensive BoB.
Cruz is a cheap man no doubt, and BA is losing appeal very fast.
6 more A380's? I'll believe it when I see it.

As for the airlines who now operate the A380, they better think twice before selling them. It's like selling your heaviest weapons to your enemies.
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:54 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
mutu wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
I don't know. Alex Cruz is a cheap man. Just look at how unwilling he is to spend money by the state of British airways service now.

carsten spohr is also not a smart man for letting go an aircraft with the potential to make money.


You obviously don't travel much with BA so wont have noticed the steady roll out of improvements under way.
If your comment is based on short haul Y buy on board catering well also look at the fares. And how others are coming to terms with poor or absent short haul profitability and finding ways to respond...


There are no improvements whatsoever.
B777 going to 10-abreast, 12 hours on 9Y B787's, catering on long haul edible but far from delicious, tired B747 cabins, lounge services barely keeping up with the rest of the world, short haul Marks Expensive BoB.
Cruz is a cheap man no doubt, and BA is losing appeal very fast.
6 more A380's? I'll believe it when I see it.

As for the airlines who now operate the A380, they better think twice before selling them. It's like selling your heaviest weapons to your enemies.

The 747 cabins looked very nice to me after refurbishment. Basically the entire world has 10Y 777s and 9Y 787s. The catering I had in Club from LHR-SEA last Spring was actually pretty good for a Western airline.
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:56 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
As for the airlines who now operate the A380, they better think twice before selling them. It's like selling your heaviest weapons to your enemies.


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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:25 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
As for the airlines who now operate the A380, they better think twice before selling them. It's like selling your heaviest weapons to your enemies.


Pretty sure some airlines would consider them a noose not a weapon.
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:35 pm

Given Heathrow's capacity issues, I wonder if the A380 makes more sense for BA than many other airlines.
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:04 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
mutu wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
I don't know. Alex Cruz is a cheap man. Just look at how unwilling he is to spend money by the state of British airways service now.

carsten spohr is also not a smart man for letting go an aircraft with the potential to make money.


You obviously don't travel much with BA so wont have noticed the steady roll out of improvements under way.
If your comment is based on short haul Y buy on board catering well also look at the fares. And how others are coming to terms with poor or absent short haul profitability and finding ways to respond...


There are no improvements whatsoever.
B777 going to 10-abreast, 12 hours on 9Y B787's, catering on long haul edible but far from delicious, tired B747 cabins, lounge services barely keeping up with the rest of the world, short haul Marks Expensive BoB.
Cruz is a cheap man no doubt, and BA is losing appeal very fast.
6 more A380's? I'll believe it when I see it.

As for the airlines who now operate the A380, they better think twice before selling them. It's like selling your heaviest weapons to your enemies.

If LH is activating an Airbus underwritten buyback on six of their A380's, they haven't got much choice where they ultimately end up.

A buyback works like an end of lease, so the price paid for the aircraft, is discounted by the pro rata value of heavy maintenance, and interior / exterior refurbishment. Perhaps LH Tec is packaging this work. Dnata is also very keen to gain refurbishment expertise, perhaps in readiness to work on the EK fleet.
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:37 pm

For what it's worth, Cruz being cheap is irrelevant, he isn't the decider here, Willie Walsh is. BA might make a business case for or against the acquisition, but if WW gets the price he wants, BA will get the A380s and say thank you.
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:05 pm

musman9853 wrote:
par13del wrote:
I have to assume that the cost to refurbish the A380 is so high that even Airbus does not want to perform that job. I guess my question would be are there secondary carriers who would not mind operating an A380 with a generic interior versus custom. The cost of refurbishment of the physical structure is high, a custom interior put the price out of the reach for many.

I guess the big question is how much money is available in support of this unique a/c to allow Airbus to invest in a refurbishment center and recoup over time, new build are done, any money in the secondary market?


yeah, BA estimated that it would cost between 30 and 50 million pounds per airframe to convert it to a BA interior spec. that's untenable.


BA is currently in a very long process to refurbish the entire LongHaul fleet as the new ClubWorld seat has to be installed. BA is starting with the frames with no First. That makes everyone think that BA is due to introduce a new First soon. Once you take into consideration the cost of changing both the ClubWorld And First cabins.... how far is that figure from the prohibitive 30-50 million?

**Disclaimer**: the aforementioned “entire LongHaul fleet” does not include the LCY A318 nor the 747-400s that will leave BA soon.
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:36 pm

Aisak wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
par13del wrote:
I have to assume that the cost to refurbish the A380 is so high that even Airbus does not want to perform that job. I guess my question would be are there secondary carriers who would not mind operating an A380 with a generic interior versus custom. The cost of refurbishment of the physical structure is high, a custom interior put the price out of the reach for many.

I guess the big question is how much money is available in support of this unique a/c to allow Airbus to invest in a refurbishment center and recoup over time, new build are done, any money in the secondary market?


yeah, BA estimated that it would cost between 30 and 50 million pounds per airframe to convert it to a BA interior spec. that's untenable.


BA is currently in a very long process to refurbish the entire LongHaul fleet as the new ClubWorld seat has to be installed. BA is starting with the frames with no First. That makes everyone think that BA is due to introduce a new First soon. Once you take into consideration the cost of changing both the ClubWorld And First cabins.... how far is that figure from the prohibitive 30-50 million?

**Disclaimer**: the aforementioned “entire LongHaul fleet” does not include the LCY A318 nor the 747-400s that will leave BA soon.


Evidently enough that they have not acted on it. Other than some public statements, nothing BA has done indicates that they are actively pursuing this.
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:40 am

alancostello wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
As for the airlines who now operate the A380, they better think twice before selling them. It's like selling your heaviest weapons to your enemies.


Pretty sure some airlines would consider them a noose not a weapon.


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Canuck600
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:11 am

I'm kind of curious as to how they are defining refurbishing, are they planning on a complete interior gutting, ripping out galleys, bathrooms & going down to bare metal? Wonder how much money could be saved by leaving the washrooms & galleys in place & just changing seats/upholstery & whatever they use to divide class sections, sort of a partial refurb?
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:26 am

Canuck600 wrote:
I'm kind of curious as to how they are defining refurbishing, are they planning on a complete interior gutting, ripping out galleys, bathrooms & going down to bare metal? Wonder how much money could be saved by leaving the washrooms & galleys in place & just changing seats/upholstery & whatever they use to divide class sections, sort of a partial refurb?


Judging by the quoted cost: gold plated toilet seats, side and knee airbags that can pop or retract on button commands, zone airconditioning at each seat, heated floors and ceilings, seat belt pretensioners, heated and cooled leather seats, shiatsu massage, live face to face chat with the cabin crew or your loved ones thanks to the HD webcam, IFE screens with retinal detection so that the cursor can follow your eyes and you dont need to be tapping the touchscreen and bothering the person in front of you but also pause a movie if you fall asleep, armrests with an integrated robotic arm that will bring your meals to your mouth so you can eat without having to lift a finger, transparent head-up displays so gou can get flight data without missing a second of the newest movie. I'm still missing a few but those should be the main ones.

Am I overdoing it?
At 100.000 USD per seat, for the cost of 4 economy class seats sandwiched between two aisles, you can get a Rolls Royce phantom or 2 Ferrari's.
Alternatively, for the cost of one refurbisbed seat, you can build a low budget house.

So it's certain that the executives in question are the ones who are losing touch with reality.
 
kimimm19
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:44 am

stephanwintner wrote:
Given Heathrow's capacity issues, I wonder if the A380 makes more sense for BA than many other airlines.



Has been my thoughts as well for years.
 
mwhcvt
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:44 am

To me a key thing in this deal could well be that by the time these frames are coming round to be available in 3-4 years should be around the time BA is considering overhauling it’s existing fleet, so if that’s factored in it could help in reducing the per frame costs of overhaul

Naturally price is also going to be a factor but with very few airlines showing all that much interest in the 388 you’d expect AIB to be fairly willing to do a good deal on these frames, as sometimes cash flow is better than holding out for the best possible price, not to mention like almost any vehicle these are a depreciating asset to AIB so they’ll want the off the lot as it were as fast as possible

Realistically LHR is still going to be at capacity for a long time to come they will not even brake ground on a new runway for years to come so it will still make the 388 viable for BA for some time to come
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
 
5NFGS
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:28 am

alancostello wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
As for the airlines who now operate the A380, they better think twice before selling them. It's like selling your heaviest weapons to your enemies.


Pretty sure some airlines would consider them a noose not a weapon.


Ahh, perspective :)
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enilria
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:38 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
enilria wrote:
If there is any airport where the A380 makes sense, it is LHR. At least if they do not add slots. If they can take two flights and combine into one A380 it is well worth it.


It's not necessary to take two flights to combine into 1 if there is unmet demand, but it's an option indeed.
When HND opens up to the A380 next year ahead of the olympics, BA's daily B777 flight should certainly be replaced by an A380, and the daily low yield B787 NRT flight could then disappear.
It makes sense and would keep 1.5 A380's busy.

There's always unmet demand. That's the purpose of revenue management. Airlines love unmet demand because unmet demand drives up fares. I would not expect BA to use this to increase capacity in existing markets much. Probably more to add new markets with slots freed up.
 
ScottB
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:52 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Am I overdoing it?
At 100.000 USD per seat, for the cost of 4 economy class seats sandwiched between two aisles, you can get a Rolls Royce phantom or 2 Ferrari's.
Alternatively, for the cost of one refurbisbed seat, you can build a low budget house.

So it's certain that the executives in question are the ones who are losing touch with reality.


You are, and I have to pose the obvious question: Why would IAG executives lie about the cost of A380 refurbishment/reconfiguration? Their job isn't to bash or boost the A380 -- it is to make as much money as reasonably possible for the shareholders. Why come up with what you view as an outlandishly overpriced figure for inducting A380s vs. just stating that they're not suitable for the network if they really don't want them? There's just no logic to it.
 
9Patch
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:03 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
As for the airlines who now operate the A380, they better think twice before selling them. It's like selling your heaviest weapons to your enemies.

When it comes to commercial aircraft having the 'heaviest' is not a good thing.
 
eurotrader85
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:42 pm

Lets be clear, there is no way it is $50Mln to refurbish the 380. That figure has been debated to death on other feeds and shown to be a bargaining ploy in getting prices down, which to be fair is what they should be doing.

Back to the main point, this is an interesting one. We've heard this time and time again in the past and it has always been shown to be a load of tosh from WW, but would be a great conclusion to the baffling story of BA's WB order. I have said on many feeds I was surprised they didn't go with a split order and take an extra six to eight 380s into the fleet, a figure that would give them some capacity to grow into. Instead they went with a chunk of 779s which doesn't give them any growth at the worlds most congested airport and of course is only going to get more congested as people fly more. Airbus offered a mix of A350s and A380s in their offer, Boeing, the 779. Taking the Airbus offer alone probably didn't work for BA's needs given its capacity composition (Airbus WB strategy up in the air debated on other feeds), however the Boeing deal plus six to eight 380s is probably perfect for BA's operations at LHR. If it ends like this I take my hat off to WW on a long game strategy that comes with a capacity growing WB fleet at knock down prices.
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:43 pm

Antarius wrote:
Aisak wrote:
musman9853 wrote:

yeah, BA estimated that it would cost between 30 and 50 million pounds per airframe to convert it to a BA interior spec. that's untenable.


BA is currently in a very long process to refurbish the entire LongHaul fleet as the new ClubWorld seat has to be installed. BA is starting with the frames with no First. That makes everyone think that BA is due to introduce a new First soon. Once you take into consideration the cost of changing both the ClubWorld And First cabins.... how far is that figure from the prohibitive 30-50 million?

**Disclaimer**: the aforementioned “entire LongHaul fleet” does not include the LCY A318 nor the 747-400s that will leave BA soon.


Evidently enough that they have not acted on it. Other than some public statements, nothing BA has done indicates that they are actively pursuing this.

I have to agree that there is no sign of BA pursuing more A380s. Any evidence?

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SilverwingSpttr
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:58 pm

I flew on a BA A380 7 months ago LHR-LAX and it was a full airplane. If that was any indication of how the rest of BA's A380 flights are going out, then the justification for adding more to the fleet, especially at a "no one else wants em" discount.
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9Patch
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:53 pm

Canuck600 wrote:
I'm kind of curious as to how they are defining refurbishing, are they planning on a complete interior gutting, ripping out galleys, bathrooms & going down to bare metal? Wonder how much money could be saved by leaving the washrooms & galleys in place & just changing seats/upholstery & whatever they use to divide class sections, sort of a partial refurb?

Won't these A380s eventually need D checks and doesn't that require a complete interior gutting?
 
BA777FO
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:13 pm

stephanwintner wrote:
Given Heathrow's capacity issues, I wonder if the A380 makes more sense for BA than many other airlines.


It does, but only on certain routes and those routes are already covered by the aircraft. In reality - 12 A380s was perhaps 2 airframes too many for BA. There are not many other routes besides where the A380 already goes to that will work. Sheer capacity is one thing, but what Heathrow thrives on for BA is frequency.

The trend lately is add capacity through extra frequencies, especially in the JBA with American. Miami, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Dallas etc. The A380's presence to MIA and LAX in particular is much diminished because of this.
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:04 am

BA777FO wrote:
stephanwintner wrote:
Given Heathrow's capacity issues, I wonder if the A380 makes more sense for BA than many other airlines.


It does, but only on certain routes and those routes are already covered by the aircraft. In reality - 12 A380s was perhaps 2 airframes too many for BA. There are not many other routes besides where the A380 already goes to that will work. Sheer capacity is one thing, but what Heathrow thrives on for BA is frequency.

The trend lately is add capacity through extra frequencies, especially in the JBA with American. Miami, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Dallas etc. The A380's presence to MIA and LAX in particular is much diminished because of this.

Yes, but frequency means slots, lots more than capacity, and of course slots is the one thing LHR doesn't have an abundance of.
 
BA777FO
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:35 am

TC957 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
stephanwintner wrote:
Given Heathrow's capacity issues, I wonder if the A380 makes more sense for BA than many other airlines.


It does, but only on certain routes and those routes are already covered by the aircraft. In reality - 12 A380s was perhaps 2 airframes too many for BA. There are not many other routes besides where the A380 already goes to that will work. Sheer capacity is one thing, but what Heathrow thrives on for BA is frequency.

The trend lately is add capacity through extra frequencies, especially in the JBA with American. Miami, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Dallas etc. The A380's presence to MIA and LAX in particular is much diminished because of this.

Yes, but frequency means slots, lots more than capacity, and of course slots is the one thing LHR doesn't have an abundance of.


Slots are an issue, but there's still plenty of scope for dropping a few frequencies to EDI, MAN, GLA, MXP etc. to add long haul routes where they're wanted. The same.is true at LGW as in a year so there'll be 3 additional 777s based there and there's plenty of scope for shuffling the ex-Monarch slots.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:49 am

Seeing as the entire worldwide fleet of second owner A380s consists of one aircraft, any deal above scrap price at this point appears to be a good one. So WW rejected Airbus’s first offer; Airbus is going to be stuck with six ex-LH birds soon, and wants to get rid of them, obviously. EK is obviously not interested any more. So since BA is the only airline that has expressed any interest at all in adding A380s to its fleet; it is only logical that Airbus would try again with a better offer. Their choice is stark; scrap them or get a slightly better deal from BA, and with it at least get money for ongoing support.
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readytotaxi
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:06 pm

Curious, how many days would it take to re-fit a A380 to BA standard once they got their hands on one, ballpark figure?
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JamesCousins
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:53 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
mutu wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
I don't know. Alex Cruz is a cheap man. Just look at how unwilling he is to spend money by the state of British airways service now.

carsten spohr is also not a smart man for letting go an aircraft with the potential to make money.


You obviously don't travel much with BA so wont have noticed the steady roll out of improvements under way.
If your comment is based on short haul Y buy on board catering well also look at the fares. And how others are coming to terms with poor or absent short haul profitability and finding ways to respond...


There are no improvements whatsoever.
B777 going to 10-abreast, 12 hours on 9Y B787's, catering on long haul edible but far from delicious, tired B747 cabins, lounge services barely keeping up with the rest of the world, short haul Marks Expensive BoB.
Cruz is a cheap man no doubt, and BA is losing appeal very fast.
6 more A380's? I'll believe it when I see it.

As for the airlines who now operate the A380, they better think twice before selling them. It's like selling your heaviest weapons to your enemies.


1. Basically every airline with 777s is taking them to 10-abreat, aside from Delta and 1 or 2 Japanese carriers I believe
2. Every airline, bar JAL, operates a standard 9-abreast 787 fleet on flights that length
3. Don't travel business so can't comment too far here - plane food is plane food.
4. BA have refurbed a large portion of 747s with the rest being retired imminently. No worse than the VS 340s they're competing with at LHR
5. Short haul on BA, if booked in a timely manner, isn't actually as bad as is made out, there's also lots of strategic pricing to save seats for fconections

I share your thoughts about further A380 acquisitions at BA, but airline's are clearly getting rid of them for a reason - they simply can't fill them. It's a fantastic aircraft, but boy is it expensive when flying around with empty seats, there's a much greater risk associated than with a smaller 777/A350 or 787 frame...
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JamesCousins
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:54 pm

SEPilot wrote:
Seeing as the entire worldwide fleet of second owner A380s consists of one aircraft, any deal above scrap price at this point appears to be a good one. So WW rejected Airbus’s first offer; Airbus is going to be stuck with six ex-LH birds soon, and wants to get rid of them, obviously. EK is obviously not interested any more. So since BA is the only airline that has expressed any interest at all in adding A380s to its fleet; it is only logical that Airbus would try again with a better offer. Their choice is stark; scrap them or get a slightly better deal from BA, and with it at least get money for ongoing support.


One can dream, but bundled with a new offer on A320neo frames it could sideline the LOI on the BA 737 MAX order....
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