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N14AZ
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:38 pm

JamesCousins wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
Seeing as the entire worldwide fleet of second owner A380s consists of one aircraft, any deal above scrap price at this point appears to be a good one. So WW rejected Airbus’s first offer; Airbus is going to be stuck with six ex-LH birds soon, and wants to get rid of them, obviously. EK is obviously not interested any more. So since BA is the only airline that has expressed any interest at all in adding A380s to its fleet; it is only logical that Airbus would try again with a better offer. Their choice is stark; scrap them or get a slightly better deal from BA, and with it at least get money for ongoing support.


One can dream, but bundled with a new offer on A320neo frames it could sideline the LOI on the BA 737 MAX order....

Sounds like a great idea - Airbus to BA: "cancel the 737-LOI and we will sell you ultra-cheap A32Xneos and on top of it we will give you these bloody A380s LH parked on our airport for free" :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
JamesCousins
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:02 pm

N14AZ wrote:
JamesCousins wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
Seeing as the entire worldwide fleet of second owner A380s consists of one aircraft, any deal above scrap price at this point appears to be a good one. So WW rejected Airbus’s first offer; Airbus is going to be stuck with six ex-LH birds soon, and wants to get rid of them, obviously. EK is obviously not interested any more. So since BA is the only airline that has expressed any interest at all in adding A380s to its fleet; it is only logical that Airbus would try again with a better offer. Their choice is stark; scrap them or get a slightly better deal from BA, and with it at least get money for ongoing support.


One can dream, but bundled with a new offer on A320neo frames it could sideline the LOI on the BA 737 MAX order....

Sounds like a great idea - Airbus to BA: "cancel the 737-LOI and we will sell you ultra-cheap A32Xneos and on top of it we will give you these bloody A380s LH parked on our airport for free" :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


I wasn't implying Airbus simply give frames away to BA, instead that Airbus could incentivise A380 pricing on the condition of an 320neo order - Airbus have said they intend to bid for the 737MAX LOI announced by BA at PAS
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EddieDude
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:58 pm

JamesCousins wrote:
1. Basically every airline with 777s is taking them to 10-abreat, aside from Delta and 1 or 2 Japanese carriers I believe

Let's not forget SQ, KE, CA, VA and others.

A majority of 777 operators are going 10-abreast, but fortunately there are still some carriers who think a bit about the comfort of their passengers!
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N14AZ
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:04 pm

JamesCousins wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
JamesCousins wrote:

One can dream, but bundled with a new offer on A320neo frames it could sideline the LOI on the BA 737 MAX order....

Sounds like a great idea - Airbus to BA: "cancel the 737-LOI and we will sell you ultra-cheap A32Xneos and on top of it we will give you these bloody A380s LH parked on our airport for free" :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


I wasn't implying Airbus simply give frames away to BA, instead that Airbus could incentivise A380 pricing on the condition of an 320neo order - Airbus have said they intend to bid for the 737MAX LOI announced by BA at PAS

And I didn’t understand your comment in this way. I was just joking around.

Let’s wait and see if they will acquire additional A380s this time..
 
airzona11
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:20 pm

LHR does seem like the hub for A380s, but chasing the yield and offering multiple frequencies has proven to make more money. Would there be any play for these out of LGW?

EddieDude wrote:
JamesCousins wrote:
1. Basically every airline with 777s is taking them to 10-abreat, aside from Delta and 1 or 2 Japanese carriers I believe

Let's not forget SQ, KE, CA, VA and others.

A majority of 777 operators are going 10-abreast, but fortunately there are still some carriers who think a bit about the comfort of their passengers!


Every major 10 abreast 777 operator has some combo of F/J/Y+ that passengers can pay for comfort. The 10-abreast seats are willing filled by customers. This allows airlines to exist and be profitable. Who is losing out? BA (the topic of this thread) is 9 across for LHR.
 
jomur
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:07 pm

airzona11 wrote:
LHR does seem like the hub for A380s, but chasing the yield and offering multiple frequencies has proven to make more money. Would there be any play for these out of LGW?

EddieDude wrote:
JamesCousins wrote:
1. Basically every airline with 777s is taking them to 10-abreat, aside from Delta and 1 or 2 Japanese carriers I believe

Let's not forget SQ, KE, CA, VA and others.

A majority of 777 operators are going 10-abreast, but fortunately there are still some carriers who think a bit about the comfort of their passengers!


Every major 10 abreast 777 operator has some combo of F/J/Y+ that passengers can pay for comfort. The 10-abreast seats are willing filled by customers. This allows airlines to exist and be profitable. Who is losing out? BA (the topic of this thread) is 9 across for LHR.


At the moment....
 
airzona11
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:38 pm

jomur wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
LHR does seem like the hub for A380s, but chasing the yield and offering multiple frequencies has proven to make more money. Would there be any play for these out of LGW?

EddieDude wrote:
Let's not forget SQ, KE, CA, VA and others.

A majority of 777 operators are going 10-abreast, but fortunately there are still some carriers who think a bit about the comfort of their passengers!


Every major 10 abreast 777 operator has some combo of F/J/Y+ that passengers can pay for comfort. The 10-abreast seats are willing filled by customers. This allows airlines to exist and be profitable. Who is losing out? BA (the topic of this thread) is 9 across for LHR.


At the moment....


But they aren't getting rid of F/J/PY, therefore no evidence they are not addressing passenger comfort (just those willing to pay for it). Again, outside of Anet, there is zero data, none, that Y passengers avoid 10 across 777. If they did, BA and every other airline would not do it.
 
giblets
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:01 am

seems BA could have a choice, sure Malaysian are going to be desperate to get rid of their A380s (RR powered I believe).

Think BAs major issue is when the D checks start turning up around 2024(?), they could be looking at around 4 of the fleet being offline at the same time, a major headache with a small fleet. Possible they may can the A380 at the same time. Not sure if they have a similar deal to LH in terms of return, but that might be a nice incentive for Airbus the sweeten their deal to BA for the Ex LH birds (if they face taking on more A380s)



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LAXLHR
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:25 am

giblets wrote:
seems BA could have a choice, sure Malaysian are going to be desperate to get rid of their A380s (RR powered I believe).

Think BAs major issue is when the D checks start turning up around 2024(?), they could be looking at around 4 of the fleet being offline at the same time, a major headache with a small fleet. Possible they may can the A380 at the same time. Not sure if they have a similar deal to LH in terms of return, but that might be a nice incentive for Airbus the sweeten their deal to BA for the Ex LH birds (if they face taking on more A380s)



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Hilarious how people on here do not think that airlines schedule out everything (including hmmmm D checks) so no, BA is not going to have a major headache.
BA IB ET JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO W7 WN NW DL UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR WY MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN LO OK OZ UL SQ LA

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 332 333 342 343 380
 
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:00 pm

lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
A380 also works well on routes between airports that are not particularly slot constrained but require high number of premium seats at a particular time.


They also work well for city pairs where there is limited demand for frequency due to time zone difference combined with travel time. LHR-HKG and LHR-LAX fit that model. There are limited desirable timings for those flights based on departure and arrival times. LHR-JFK is a polar opposite. The high O&D between New York and London with demand for flexible timing and premium seats leads to many flights between them every day. Even if the BA terminal at JFK had the capability of handling A380's, BA wouldn't be flying them on LHR-JFK.
 
CHRISBA35X
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:07 pm

It does make me laugh when it was mentioned upthread that "BA reckon it will cost 30m to bring the aircraft to BA standard" - you mean fitting inferior hard products than the ones they are retired with will cost that much?
 
lhrsfosyd91
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:21 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
A380 also works well on routes between airports that are not particularly slot constrained but require high number of premium seats at a particular time.


They also work well for city pairs where there is limited demand for frequency due to time zone difference combined with travel time. LHR-HKG and LHR-LAX fit that model. There are limited desirable timings for those flights based on departure and arrival times. LHR-JFK is a polar opposite. The high O&D between New York and London with demand for flexible timing and premium seats leads to many flights between them every day. Even if the BA terminal at JFK had the capability of handling A380's, BA wouldn't be flying them on LHR-JFK.


That is precisely what I wrote in the quoted post?
 
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vhtje
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:50 pm

CHRISBA35X wrote:
It does make me laugh when it was mentioned upthread that "BA reckon it will cost 30m to bring the aircraft to BA standard" - you mean fitting inferior hard products than the ones they are retired with will cost that much?


A standard does not need to be higher.
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Antarius
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:53 pm

LAXLHR wrote:
giblets wrote:
seems BA could have a choice, sure Malaysian are going to be desperate to get rid of their A380s (RR powered I believe).

Think BAs major issue is when the D checks start turning up around 2024(?), they could be looking at around 4 of the fleet being offline at the same time, a major headache with a small fleet. Possible they may can the A380 at the same time. Not sure if they have a similar deal to LH in terms of return, but that might be a nice incentive for Airbus the sweeten their deal to BA for the Ex LH birds (if they face taking on more A380s)



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Hilarious how people on here do not think that airlines schedule out everything (including hmmmm D checks) so no, BA is not going to have a major headache.


Yup - BA even (somehow lol) manages to operate a subfleet of 1 a318.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN
 
skipness1E
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:01 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
A380 also works well on routes between airports that are not particularly slot constrained but require high number of premium seats at a particular time.


They also work well for city pairs where there is limited demand for frequency due to time zone difference combined with travel time. LHR-HKG and LHR-LAX fit that model. There are limited desirable timings for those flights based on departure and arrival times. LHR-JFK is a polar opposite. The high O&D between New York and London with demand for flexible timing and premium seats leads to many flights between them every day. Even if the BA terminal at JFK had the capability of handling A380's, BA wouldn't be flying them on LHR-JFK.

Not sure LON-HKG is a good example of a route lacking frequency as CX fly 5 x B77Ws across the day as well as an A350 into Gatters. More to the point LHR should be getting a third runway and so BA would be looking for smaller aircraft to defend frequency rather than what would by then be mid life previous generation quads. At the same time BA is getting new B787-10s and has just begun with the A350-1000.

They don't *REALLY* need 12 A380s today, YVR, BOS, ORD and MIA get the A380 but don't strike me as especially needing one.
 
CHRISBA35X
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:13 pm

vhtje wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
It does make me laugh when it was mentioned upthread that "BA reckon it will cost 30m to bring the aircraft to BA standard" - you mean fitting inferior hard products than the ones they are retired with will cost that much?


A standard does not need to be higher.


Yes but imagine spending all that money to make something not as good as it was before. Proper Brexit behaviour.
 
Vladex
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:30 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
A380 also works well on routes between airports that are not particularly slot constrained but require high number of premium seats at a particular time.


They also work well for city pairs where there is limited demand for frequency due to time zone difference combined with travel time. LHR-HKG and LHR-LAX fit that model. There are limited desirable timings for those flights based on departure and arrival times. LHR-JFK is a polar opposite. The high O&D between New York and London with demand for flexible timing and premium seats leads to many flights between them every day. Even if the BA terminal at JFK had the capability of handling A380's, BA wouldn't be flying them on LHR-JFK.


I just checked LHR-JFK and I see 3 morning flights and 22 evening flights from 18:00 to 24:00 but zero (0) fligths from 10:30 to 18:00 so this route seems very time zone oriented. In fact every long haul route is more or less time zone oriented but especially trans atlantic routes.
 
workhorse
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:49 pm

JamesCousins wrote:
1. Basically every airline with 777s is taking them to 10-abreat, aside from Delta and 1 or 2 Japanese carriers I believe


To be totally precise, only one Japanese airline operates 777s in 9-abreast (JAL) and even they do have some 10 abreast non-ER 777s that they use on domestic flights. ANA has turned to the dark side. :(

Other than that, as already mentioned, Thai, Korean and Singapore have 9-abreast configurations on their 777s for the moment, but they also have 9-abreast 787s, so they are already on the slippery slope.
 
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alancostello
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:55 pm

Vladex wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
A380 also works well on routes between airports that are not particularly slot constrained but require high number of premium seats at a particular time.


They also work well for city pairs where there is limited demand for frequency due to time zone difference combined with travel time. LHR-HKG and LHR-LAX fit that model. There are limited desirable timings for those flights based on departure and arrival times. LHR-JFK is a polar opposite. The high O&D between New York and London with demand for flexible timing and premium seats leads to many flights between them every day. Even if the BA terminal at JFK had the capability of handling A380's, BA wouldn't be flying them on LHR-JFK.


I just checked LHR-JFK and I see 3 morning flights and 22 evening flights from 18:00 to 24:00 but zero (0) fligths from 10:30 to 18:00 so this route seems very time zone oriented. In fact every long haul route is more or less time zone oriented but especially trans atlantic routes.


I believe you looked at JFK-LHR, not the other way around. Those times make perfect sense, the early flights get in before midnight, the later flights start landing at 6am. Who wants to land in LHR at 2am or 4am?
 
BA777FO
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:41 pm

Vladex wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
A380 also works well on routes between airports that are not particularly slot constrained but require high number of premium seats at a particular time.


They also work well for city pairs where there is limited demand for frequency due to time zone difference combined with travel time. LHR-HKG and LHR-LAX fit that model. There are limited desirable timings for those flights based on departure and arrival times. LHR-JFK is a polar opposite. The high O&D between New York and London with demand for flexible timing and premium seats leads to many flights between them every day. Even if the BA terminal at JFK had the capability of handling A380's, BA wouldn't be flying them on LHR-JFK.


I just checked LHR-JFK and I see 3 morning flights and 22 evening flights from 18:00 to 24:00 but zero (0) fligths from 10:30 to 18:00 so this route seems very time zone oriented. In fact every long haul route is more or less time zone oriented but especially trans atlantic routes.


I think you mean JFK-LHR - that's because of the time zone change and curfews/night jet movement restrictions at Heathrow. LHR-JFK is much more spread out throught the day. BA's LHR-JFK flights start at 8:30am and are spaced roughly an hour to.2 hours apart all the way through to 7:50pm. It's not a route suited to the A380 for BA at all.
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: Inference: BA may acquire 6 x A380 ex-LH

Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:56 pm

musman9853 wrote:
yeah, BA estimated that it would cost between 30 and 50 million pounds per airframe to convert it to a BA interior spec. that's untenable.


Canuck600 wrote:
I'm kind of curious as to how they are defining refurbishing, are they planning on a complete interior gutting, ripping out galleys, bathrooms & going down to bare metal? Wonder how much money could be saved by leaving the washrooms & galleys in place & just changing seats/upholstery & whatever they use to divide class sections, sort of a partial refurb?


Waterbomber2 wrote:
Judging by the quoted cost: gold plated toilet seats, side and knee airbags that can pop or retract on button commands, zone airconditioning at each seat, heated floors and ceilings, seat belt pretensioners, heated and cooled leather seats, shiatsu massage, live face to face chat with the cabin crew or your loved ones thanks to the HD webcam, IFE screens with retinal detection so that the cursor can follow your eyes and you dont need to be tapping the touchscreen and bothering the person in front of you but also pause a movie if you fall asleep, armrests with an integrated robotic arm that will bring your meals to your mouth so you can eat without having to lift a finger, transparent head-up displays so gou can get flight data without missing a second of the newest movie. I'm still missing a few but those should be the main ones.

Am I overdoing it?
At 100.000 USD per seat, for the cost of 4 economy class seats sandwiched between two aisles, you can get a Rolls Royce phantom or 2 Ferrari's.
Alternatively, for the cost of one refurbisbed seat, you can build a low budget house.

So it's certain that the executives in question are the ones who are losing touch with reality.


eurotrader85 wrote:
Lets be clear, there is no way it is $50Mln to refurbish the 380. That figure has been debated to death on other feeds and shown to be a bargaining ploy in getting prices down, which to be fair is what they should be doing.


CHRISBA35X wrote:
It does make me laugh when it was mentioned upthread that "BA reckon it will cost 30m to bring the aircraft to BA standard" - you mean fitting inferior hard products than the ones they are retired with will cost that much?


It is interesting to see everyone saying that £30-£50 million pounds is outrageous and a complete lie, or a joke or a bargaining ploy.

I present this to you - https://blog.swiss.com/en/2019/06/new-cabin-interior/

This year, Swiss noted they spent 100 million Swiss francs on an interior refurbishment for five Airbus A340s. That is about £16,500,000 per aircraft and they were Swiss aircraft to begin with. Considering how much larger the Airbus A380 is, that £30 million per aircraft doesn't sound so outrageous now, does it?

Also, when putting it into BA configuration, it is not just the seats, galleys, and toilets. It's all the other optional items, from inflight entertainment, to the manufacturers of safety equipment, airline optional radio equipment and and any option cockpit items and so on. That plus all the maintenance to renew whatever needs to be renewed, life and time expired parts replacement, and the rest, means that the £30 to £50 million per frame is not unrealistic. You also have to factor in the man hours, which is included in the cost, and there would be a lot of man hours to reconfigure an A380.

If Swiss spent half that on their own aircraft for a cabin refit, the BA figure is not the lies everyone makes it up to be. Educate yourself and read the blog post from Swiss.
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