Ishrion
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AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:34 pm

http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/new ... nstop.html

Sort of surprised they didn't combine these routes into one announcement.

MBJ/SJO will be 1 daily, LIR Saturday only.

JFK-ANU increase 1x daily
LGA-AUA year-round Saturday
DFW-SJU 1x-2x daily
DFW-SAL Seasonal → Year-round Sun., Mon., Thur., Fri.

It's nice to see AA add more routes out of PHX, especially MSY.

Interesting use of slots at JFK by AA...
Last edited by SQ22 on Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Typo fixed
 
UALFAson
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:44 pm

Thanks for posting.

Am not surprised that BNA was not included among the PHX adds. Despite the fan boys in the Nashville thread, I do not see AA starting BNA-PHX nonstops anytime soon due to the potential cannibalization of the 3x BNA-LAX flights in terms of connections. Though it's interesting that AA is starting to "sell" PHX as a destination in and of itself. Note that there is no nonstop AA service MSY-LAX from which to cannibalize.

Indeed interesting to see them get back into the NYC (esp. JFK)-Caribbean market.
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
Sightseer
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:05 pm

UALFAson wrote:
Note that there is no nonstop AA service MSY-LAX from which to cannibalize.

Minor nitpick, but AA does serve LAX-MSY.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:15 pm

UALFAson wrote:
Thanks for posting.

Am not surprised that BNA was not included among the PHX adds. Despite the fan boys in the Nashville thread, I do not see AA starting BNA-PHX nonstops anytime soon due to the potential cannibalization of the 3x BNA-LAX flights in terms of connections. Though it's interesting that AA is starting to "sell" PHX as a destination in and of itself. Note that there is no nonstop AA service MSY-LAX from which to cannibalize.

Indeed interesting to see them get back into the NYC (esp. JFK)-Caribbean market.

I doubt that is the reason AA doesn't run BNA-PHX. I would think the more likely reason is because WN runs 3-4 daily BNA-PHX with Southwest hub like things on either end.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Runway28L
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:16 pm

AA is also axing A321T service on BOS-LAX. Was mentioned in the AA network thread.
 
mhkansan
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:26 pm

Its about time ICT got more service than just DFW & ORD. PHX was served with CRJs back in the America West days, but I think its time ICT got both a year-round PHX flight and possibly 2x flights to CLT. I'd also like to see at least a 1x MHK-CLT for military connections. There is a ton of traffic between Fort Riley and Fort Bragg that double connects in ORD/DFW and CLT to get to FAY.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:29 pm

UALFAson wrote:
Thanks for posting.

Am not surprised that BNA was not included among the PHX adds. Despite the fan boys in the Nashville thread, I do not see AA starting BNA-PHX nonstops anytime soon due to the potential cannibalization of the 3x BNA-LAX flights in terms of connections. Though it's interesting that AA is starting to "sell" PHX as a destination in and of itself. Note that there is no nonstop AA service MSY-LAX from which to cannibalize.

Indeed interesting to see them get back into the NYC (esp. JFK)-Caribbean market.


As a "fanboy" living in Nashville, you might be surprised. Most folks I know could care less if AA started PHX. AA is barely holding on to it's #2 place in the market. DL will eventually pass them.
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usflyer msp
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:47 pm

mhkansan wrote:
Its about time ICT got more service than just DFW & ORD. PHX was served with CRJs back in the America West days, but I think its time ICT got both a year-round PHX flight and possibly 2x flights to CLT. I'd also like to see at least a 1x MHK-CLT for military connections. There is a ton of traffic between Fort Riley and Fort Bragg that double connects in ORD/DFW and CLT to get to FAY.


Interesting fact: ICT was actually America West's first destination when they launched in 1983.
 
x1234
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:48 pm

AA finally filling holes in the Carribean Latin America network out of JFK that no other airline flies.
 
UALFAson
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:00 pm

Sightseer wrote:
UALFAson wrote:
Note that there is no nonstop AA service MSY-LAX from which to cannibalize.

Minor nitpick, but AA does serve LAX-MSY.

Is it seasonal? I looked at AA.com before posting and did not see any nonstops currently offered.

cledaybuck wrote:
I doubt that is the reason AA doesn't run BNA-PHX. I would think the more likely reason is because WN runs 3-4 daily BNA-PHX with Southwest hub like things on either end.

And yet AA runs 2-3x LAX-BNA against WN's 2x LAX-BNA. WN may not have a hub-but-we're-not-calling-it-a-hub at LAX, but they aren't exactly small potatoes there either.

WN and AA also go head-to-head from BNA to LGA, CHI (though MDW vs ORD), Dallas (tho DAL vs DFW) and South Florida (FLL vs MIA), so it's not like AA in BNA is scared of WN, but you do make a good point that WN has a lot of frequency competition on the PHX route.

EvanWSFO wrote:
As a "fanboy" living in Nashville, you might be surprised. Most folks I know could care less if AA started PHX. AA is barely holding on to it's #2 place in the market. DL will eventually pass them.

First of all, the expression is "couldn't care less." Secondly, what are you trying to say? What does DL have to do with this? Who cares if AA is #2 or #3 at BNA or any airport? Airlines long ago figured out that chasing market share for prestige reasons is not the way to profitability.
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
CLT704
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:00 pm

Still waiting for CLT-ICT. Wow.
 
Ishrion
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:03 pm

x1234 wrote:
AA finally filling holes in the Carribean Latin America network out of JFK that no other airline flies.


Uh...
Volaris Costa Rica and Avianca Costa Rica fly JFK-SJO

JetBlue flies JFK-LIR

Carribean Airlines, Delta, and JetBlue fly JFK-MBJ.

...according to the Wiki. Some may be outdated, but there are definitely already airlines flying the routes.
 
Ishrion
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:06 pm

UALFAson wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
UALFAson wrote:
Note that there is no nonstop AA service MSY-LAX from which to cannibalize.

Minor nitpick, but AA does serve LAX-MSY.

Is it seasonal? I looked at AA.com before posting and did not see any nonstops currently offered.

cledaybuck wrote:
I doubt that is the reason AA doesn't run BNA-PHX. I would think the more likely reason is because WN runs 3-4 daily BNA-PHX with Southwest hub like things on either end.

And yet AA runs 2-3x LAX-BNA against WN's 2x LAX-BNA. WN may not have a hub-but-we're-not-calling-it-a-hub at LAX, but they aren't exactly small potatoes there either.

WN and AA also go head-to-head from BNA to LGA, CHI (though MDW vs ORD), Dallas (tho DAL vs DFW) and South Florida (FLL vs MIA), so it's not like AA in BNA is scared of WN, but you do make a good point that WN has a lot of frequency competition on the PHX route.

EvanWSFO wrote:
As a "fanboy" living in Nashville, you might be surprised. Most folks I know could care less if AA started PHX. AA is barely holding on to it's #2 place in the market. DL will eventually pass them.

First of all, the expression is "couldn't care less." Secondly, what are you trying to say? What does DL have to do with this? Who cares if AA is #2 or #3 at BNA or any airport? Airlines long ago figured out that chasing market share for prestige reasons is not the way to profitability.


LAX-MSY is not seasonal. Right now it looks like it's only a Saturday flight on an A321.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:15 pm

UALFAson wrote:
And yet AA runs 2-3x LAX-BNA against WN's 2x LAX-BNA. WN may not have a hub-but-we're-not-calling-it-a-hub at LAX, but they aren't exactly small potatoes there either.

WN and AA also go head-to-head from BNA to LGA, CHI (though MDW vs ORD), Dallas (tho DAL vs DFW) and South Florida (FLL vs MIA), so it's not like AA in BNA is scared of WN, but you do make a good point that WN has a lot of frequency competition on the PHX route.
I am willing to bet those are all larger markets than PHX from BNA though. I also don't think is trying to protect connections at LAX, they want O&D. What connections can you make at LAX on AA that you can't make at DFW?
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tphuang
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:17 pm

It's only San Jose that no other American airlines fly out of JFK. B6 definitely flies to Liberia. And both b6 and Delta flies to Antigua and Montego Bay.
Last edited by tphuang on Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
SunsetLimited
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:17 pm

LAX-MSY goes back to 2X daily in September. It’s Saturday-only through late August then it goes back to daily. Was cut down over the summer due to the fleet shuffling over the MAX.

MSY-PHX is long overdue.
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YYZORD
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:20 pm

PHX-YYC & PHX-YYZ is also long overdue too.
 
msycajun
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:21 pm

Ishrion wrote:
UALFAson wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
Minor nitpick, but AA does serve LAX-MSY.

Is it seasonal? I looked at AA.com before posting and did not see any nonstops currently offered.

cledaybuck wrote:
I doubt that is the reason AA doesn't run BNA-PHX. I would think the more likely reason is because WN runs 3-4 daily BNA-PHX with Southwest hub like things on either end.

And yet AA runs 2-3x LAX-BNA against WN's 2x LAX-BNA. WN may not have a hub-but-we're-not-calling-it-a-hub at LAX, but they aren't exactly small potatoes there either.

WN and AA also go head-to-head from BNA to LGA, CHI (though MDW vs ORD), Dallas (tho DAL vs DFW) and South Florida (FLL vs MIA), so it's not like AA in BNA is scared of WN, but you do make a good point that WN has a lot of frequency competition on the PHX route.

EvanWSFO wrote:
As a "fanboy" living in Nashville, you might be surprised. Most folks I know could care less if AA started PHX. AA is barely holding on to it's #2 place in the market. DL will eventually pass them.

First of all, the expression is "couldn't care less." Secondly, what are you trying to say? What does DL have to do with this? Who cares if AA is #2 or #3 at BNA or any airport? Airlines long ago figured out that chasing market share for prestige reasons is not the way to profitability.


LAX-MSY is not seasonal. Right now it looks like it's only a Saturday flight on an A321.


It's normally 2 daily, but was a victim of MAX cuts. I guess AA decided easier to route those pax through DFW for now, but is showing a return to 2 daily in the fall, last I checked.
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:23 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
UALFAson wrote:
Thanks for posting.

Am not surprised that BNA was not included among the PHX adds. Despite the fan boys in the Nashville thread, I do not see AA starting BNA-PHX nonstops anytime soon due to the potential cannibalization of the 3x BNA-LAX flights in terms of connections. Though it's interesting that AA is starting to "sell" PHX as a destination in and of itself. Note that there is no nonstop AA service MSY-LAX from which to cannibalize.

Indeed interesting to see them get back into the NYC (esp. JFK)-Caribbean market.


As a "fanboy" living in Nashville, you might be surprised. Most folks I know could care less if AA started PHX. AA is barely holding on to it's #2 place in the market. DL will eventually pass them.


According to USDOT data, DL has already passed AA for #2 in market share at BNA, but both lag well behind WN:

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports. ... rier=FACTS

The caveat is that USDOT airport market share data only counts DL/AA/UA mainline and separates regional carriers such as SkyWest. But, it appears as though DL has already surpassed AA at BNA.
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x1234
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:37 pm

lshrion, for some reason the Volaris Costa Rica & Avianca Costa Rica flights for JFK-SJO is routed JFK-SAL-SJO with a stop in San Salvador.
 
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:54 pm

mhkansan wrote:
Its about time ICT got more service than just DFW & ORD. PHX was served with CRJs back in the America West days, but I think its time ICT got both a year-round PHX flight and possibly 2x flights to CLT. I'd also like to see at least a 1x MHK-CLT for military connections. There is a ton of traffic between Fort Riley and Fort Bragg that double connects in ORD/DFW and CLT to get to FAY.


When my son-in-law was being deployed out of Riley, more often than not they'd use TOP, with MHK so close by. Made no sense, but that's why I'm not in the business. I know I'm talking about deployments and you're talking contractors/vendors, but I agree, you can make a case for MHK-CLT.
 
danipawa
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:58 pm

JFK-STI/SDQ please !
 
Ishrion
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:06 pm

Rereading the post... it looks like JFK-LIR-JFK will have a turn-around time of... 9 minutes...

Arrival 10:55 a.m., departure 11:04 a.m.
 
MAH4546
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:22 pm

UALFAson wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
UALFAson wrote:
Note that there is no nonstop AA service MSY-LAX from which to cannibalize.

Minor nitpick, but AA does serve LAX-MSY.

Is it seasonal? I looked at AA.com before posting and did not see any nonstops currently offered.


It is year-round, usually twice a day, but it's one of the victims of the MAX groundings where AA has had to suspend a bunch of routes for summer. It's so easy to just reroute that traffic via DFW during the suspension.
a.
 
MAH4546
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:23 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Rereading the post... it looks like JFK-LIR-JFK will have a turn-around time of... 9 minutes...

Arrival 10:55 a.m., departure 11:04 a.m.


AA has a few flights to LIR. There is no reason the inbound JFK plane also has to fly the outbound.
a.
 
Ishrion
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:37 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Rereading the post... it looks like JFK-LIR-JFK will have a turn-around time of... 9 minutes...

Arrival 10:55 a.m., departure 11:04 a.m.


AA has a few flights to LIR. There is no reason the inbound JFK plane also has to fly the outbound.


Ah, that's true.
 
MLIAA
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:38 pm

CLT704 wrote:
Still waiting for CLT-ICT. Wow.


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sargester
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:42 pm

My comment gone too... Good adds for AA better use of slots and a look a things to come for JFK with BA coming in too
 
Brickell305
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:52 pm

I wonder if AA adding JFK-MBJ pushes BW off the route and out of MBJ? WN adding FLL-MBJ was the straw that broke the camel's back for them on that route. And while JFK-MBJ is a larger market, that many US based airlines serving it when point of sale is almost entirely US based might just be too much for it to be worth it anymore.
 
Abeam79
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:14 pm

I would surmise that AA is just trying to do what they can with their slot portfolio out of JFK. See if maybe it’s worth keeping it as a Northeast hub. It all depends on how this experiment plays out but I think if it doesn’t give them the return they expect which at this point I can’t see it being too lofty for them now that the B6 is a dominant Caribbean player out of jfk, in which case I could see them dehub jfk all together and refocusing it all to Philly. Time will tell, just my .02 cents
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:46 pm

Abeam79 wrote:
I would surmise that AA is just trying to do what they can with their slot portfolio out of JFK. See if maybe it’s worth keeping it as a Northeast hub. It all depends on how this experiment plays out but I think if it doesn’t give them the return they expect which at this point I can’t see it being too lofty for them now that the B6 is a dominant Caribbean player out of jfk, in which case I could see them dehub jfk all together and refocusing it all to Philly. Time will tell, just my .02 cents


JFK is listed among AA's top airports, but it really isn't a hub and not widely promoted as such since the merger. Pre-US/AA, it was referred to as a "cornerstone" hub. JFK is an O&D station for AA to serve markets that it feels are key for its loyal customer base in the NYC area. Will they sell you a connecting flight through JFK, sure, but it serves an entirely different purpose than its true hub portfolio.

American suspended a lot of flights from JFK for the period in which the airport is down to 3 runways due to construction and the 737-MAX grounding, which caused AA to shift 737-800s around the system to compensate and that led to a number of JFK flights on the 738 being temporarily suspended, and got DOT permission to do so. After November, I'd guess they have to use the slots or lose them, so they're doing what they can where they think they can make money. SJO and LIR are popular destinations and AA has served SJO nonstop from JFK before as others have said. Same goes for MBJ and AA likely still has strong POS to Jamaica from both the NYC area and from Jamaica.

There is a lot of romanticizing about AA's former glory at JFK. Have they cut capacity and routes there, absolutely. TATL overlaps with PHL and they've designated PHL as their main gateway to Europe and one where there is so much less competition for them, though the O&D market is a lot smaller for sure. AA pulled Tokyo flights after the switch to HND, which lasted about 2 years, because the slot times were not business traveller friendly. They've dropped BRU, BHX, MAN, DUB and moved EDI back to PHL (seasonally) and ZRH to PHL year round, cut the second daily CDG nonstop (a while back), consolidated BCN from up to 2 daily 767-300ER flights to a single daily 777, made GIG seasonal, and ceded the majority of their NYC to the Caribbean network to B6, opting to focus on MIA instead. American has always been between 95 and 120 daily departures at JFK. The airport was never a behemoth in the AA network post-deregulation.
 
alasizon
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:03 pm

mhkansan wrote:
I think its time ICT got both a year-round PHX flight


FWIW, FSD and MEM both started as seasonal as well and they are both year round (with Memphis holding on to occasional ML service on the PM flight). I see no reason why ICT couldn't go year round, CID will take more time to develop.

YYZORD wrote:
PHX-YYC & PHX-YYZ is also long overdue too.

Given that AC & WS both reduced PHX-YYC this year, I can't see AA wanting to jump into it. PHX-YEG also isn't for sale this winter so it looks like AA isn't chasing after the Canadian snowbird traffic this year. The domestic traffic to the Midwest on slightly shorter legs commands about the same fares and gives AA more flexibility.

UALFAson wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
I doubt that is the reason AA doesn't run BNA-PHX. I would think the more likely reason is because WN runs 3-4 daily BNA-PHX with Southwest hub like things on either end.

And yet AA runs 2-3x LAX-BNA against WN's 2x LAX-BNA. WN may not have a hub-but-we're-not-calling-it-a-hub at LAX, but they aren't exactly small potatoes there either.


One thing about PHX-BNA is that most of the O&D would be better served by WN's multi-daily flights and most of the connections are going to be from California which is currently decently covered by LAX & DFW. The thing with the 3-3.5 hour routes from PHX is they really have to stand on their own or have a lot of connection potential at good yields. That is one of the reasons why it took a while to re-add RDU and why CLE dropped off.
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asuflyer
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:46 pm

SJO and MBJ are resumptions, SJO has been served on and off for the past 25 years, last in 2015, and MBJ last in 2011. JFK-LIR has never been served. UA serves EWR-SJO nonstop. LR/TA and Q6 have served SJO-JFK directly in the past, but they benefit from more VFR by stopping in SAL. I could see one of them resuming direct flights to compete with AA.
 
jplatts
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:09 pm

alasizon wrote:
One thing about PHX-BNA is that most of the O&D would be better served by WN's multi-daily flights and most of the connections are going to be from California which is currently decently covered by LAX & DFW. The thing with the 3-3.5 hour routes from PHX is they really have to stand on their own or have a lot of connection potential at good yields. That is one of the reasons why it took a while to re-add RDU and why CLE dropped off.


Other top domestic destinations traveled to from PHX that aren't currently served nonstop out of PHX on AA include CVG, BDL, FAR, TUL, COS, and SDF.

Is AA likely to ever add PHX-CVG, PHX-BDL, PHX-FAR, PHX-TUL, PHX-COS, and/or PHX-SDF nonstop service anytime soon?
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:16 pm

ctrabs0114 wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
UALFAson wrote:
Thanks for posting.

Am not surprised that BNA was not included among the PHX adds. Despite the fan boys in the Nashville thread, I do not see AA starting BNA-PHX nonstops anytime soon due to the potential cannibalization of the 3x BNA-LAX flights in terms of connections. Though it's interesting that AA is starting to "sell" PHX as a destination in and of itself. Note that there is no nonstop AA service MSY-LAX from which to cannibalize.

Indeed interesting to see them get back into the NYC (esp. JFK)-Caribbean market.


As a "fanboy" living in Nashville, you might be surprised. Most folks I know could care less if AA started PHX. AA is barely holding on to it's #2 place in the market. DL will eventually pass them.


According to USDOT data, DL has already passed AA for #2 in market share at BNA, but both lag well behind WN:

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports. ... rier=FACTS

The caveat is that USDOT airport market share data only counts DL/AA/UA mainline and separates regional carriers such as SkyWest. But, it appears as though DL has already surpassed AA at BNA.


Thanks. I was looking at last years numbers.
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uconn99
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:17 pm

BDL-PHX has decent O&D numbers, not sure exactly what they are however HP and US served BDL-PHX in the past. With the MAX issues right now and BDL-LAX served less than daily most weeks as well as DFW losing a frequency most weeks, I don't feel AA will add BDL-PHX any time soon. I would guess WN would have a better shot at adding BDL-PHX with LAS no longer served from BDL.

Outside of NYC, PHX is the only AA hub not flown from BDL.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Carribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:24 pm

UALFAson wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
UALFAson wrote:
Note that there is no nonstop AA service MSY-LAX from which to cannibalize.

Minor nitpick, but AA does serve LAX-MSY.

Is it seasonal? I looked at AA.com before posting and did not see any nonstops currently offered.

cledaybuck wrote:
I doubt that is the reason AA doesn't run BNA-PHX. I would think the more likely reason is because WN runs 3-4 daily BNA-PHX with Southwest hub like things on either end.

And yet AA runs 2-3x LAX-BNA against WN's 2x LAX-BNA. WN may not have a hub-but-we're-not-calling-it-a-hub at LAX, but they aren't exactly small potatoes there either.

WN and AA also go head-to-head from BNA to LGA, CHI (though MDW vs ORD), Dallas (tho DAL vs DFW) and South Florida (FLL vs MIA), so it's not like AA in BNA is scared of WN, but you do make a good point that WN has a lot of frequency competition on the PHX route.

EvanWSFO wrote:
As a "fanboy" living in Nashville, you might be surprised. Most folks I know could care less if AA started PHX. AA is barely holding on to it's #2 place in the market. DL will eventually pass them.

First of all, the expression is "couldn't care less." Secondly, what are you trying to say? What does DL have to do with this? Who cares if AA is #2 or #3 at BNA or any airport? Airlines long ago figured out that chasing market share for prestige reasons is not the way to profitability.


Golly wow, ya really got me there on my grammar oops. It's comments like yours that make this site insufferable at times. As for DL and AA and BNA, I would say both of them do care about market share. Bye now. Gotta look for my old Hooked on Phonics cassettes :sarcastic:
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NYCVIE
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:51 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Abeam79 wrote:
I would surmise that AA is just trying to do what they can with their slot portfolio out of JFK. See if maybe it’s worth keeping it as a Northeast hub. It all depends on how this experiment plays out but I think if it doesn’t give them the return they expect which at this point I can’t see it being too lofty for them now that the B6 is a dominant Caribbean player out of jfk, in which case I could see them dehub jfk all together and refocusing it all to Philly. Time will tell, just my .02 cents


JFK is listed among AA's top airports, but it really isn't a hub and not widely promoted as such since the merger. Pre-US/AA, it was referred to as a "cornerstone" hub. JFK is an O&D station for AA to serve markets that it feels are key for its loyal customer base in the NYC area. Will they sell you a connecting flight through JFK, sure, but it serves an entirely different purpose than its true hub portfolio.

American suspended a lot of flights from JFK for the period in which the airport is down to 3 runways due to construction and the 737-MAX grounding, which caused AA to shift 737-800s around the system to compensate and that led to a number of JFK flights on the 738 being temporarily suspended, and got DOT permission to do so. After November, I'd guess they have to use the slots or lose them, so they're doing what they can where they think they can make money. SJO and LIR are popular destinations and AA has served SJO nonstop from JFK before as others have said. Same goes for MBJ and AA likely still has strong POS to Jamaica from both the NYC area and from Jamaica.

There is a lot of romanticizing about AA's former glory at JFK. Have they cut capacity and routes there, absolutely. TATL overlaps with PHL and they've designated PHL as their main gateway to Europe and one where there is so much less competition for them, though the O&D market is a lot smaller for sure. AA pulled Tokyo flights after the switch to HND, which lasted about 2 years, because the slot times were not business traveller friendly. They've dropped BRU, BHX, MAN, DUB and moved EDI back to PHL (seasonally) and ZRH to PHL year round, cut the second daily CDG nonstop (a while back), consolidated BCN from up to 2 daily 767-300ER flights to a single daily 777, made GIG seasonal, and ceded the majority of their NYC to the Caribbean network to B6, opting to focus on MIA instead. American has always been between 95 and 120 daily departures at JFK. The airport was never a behemoth in the AA network post-deregulation.


Good analysis - I'm interested to see how this goes for AA for sure. I agree that this is probably their best use of slots since the longer domestic adds they've tried every now and then (IAH, DEN, etc) have flopped. I would REALLY be surprised if AA had strong POS from JFK to basically anywhere in the Caribbean at this point since B6 has really swept the market. DL is a formidable competitor, as is UA at EWR, and even BW probably has more loyalty from Caribbean bound travelers from JFK than AA does now. They're doing what they can but they'll probably just be chasing NYC vacationers vs. VFR traffic who regularly go back to the islands.
 
CIDFlyer
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:51 pm

Nice to see CID-PHX added. I could see it becoming year round, Phoenix is a popular destination from CID not to mention the connections it can provide. Just looking at Allegiants schedule to the area from CID they usually run 3-4 times a week and daily during spring break.
 
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:28 pm

Anyone know if PVD MIA will return?
 
Brickell305
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:37 pm

NYCVIE wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Abeam79 wrote:
I would surmise that AA is just trying to do what they can with their slot portfolio out of JFK. See if maybe it’s worth keeping it as a Northeast hub. It all depends on how this experiment plays out but I think if it doesn’t give them the return they expect which at this point I can’t see it being too lofty for them now that the B6 is a dominant Caribbean player out of jfk, in which case I could see them dehub jfk all together and refocusing it all to Philly. Time will tell, just my .02 cents


JFK is listed among AA's top airports, but it really isn't a hub and not widely promoted as such since the merger. Pre-US/AA, it was referred to as a "cornerstone" hub. JFK is an O&D station for AA to serve markets that it feels are key for its loyal customer base in the NYC area. Will they sell you a connecting flight through JFK, sure, but it serves an entirely different purpose than its true hub portfolio.

American suspended a lot of flights from JFK for the period in which the airport is down to 3 runways due to construction and the 737-MAX grounding, which caused AA to shift 737-800s around the system to compensate and that led to a number of JFK flights on the 738 being temporarily suspended, and got DOT permission to do so. After November, I'd guess they have to use the slots or lose them, so they're doing what they can where they think they can make money. SJO and LIR are popular destinations and AA has served SJO nonstop from JFK before as others have said. Same goes for MBJ and AA likely still has strong POS to Jamaica from both the NYC area and from Jamaica.

There is a lot of romanticizing about AA's former glory at JFK. Have they cut capacity and routes there, absolutely. TATL overlaps with PHL and they've designated PHL as their main gateway to Europe and one where there is so much less competition for them, though the O&D market is a lot smaller for sure. AA pulled Tokyo flights after the switch to HND, which lasted about 2 years, because the slot times were not business traveller friendly. They've dropped BRU, BHX, MAN, DUB and moved EDI back to PHL (seasonally) and ZRH to PHL year round, cut the second daily CDG nonstop (a while back), consolidated BCN from up to 2 daily 767-300ER flights to a single daily 777, made GIG seasonal, and ceded the majority of their NYC to the Caribbean network to B6, opting to focus on MIA instead. American has always been between 95 and 120 daily departures at JFK. The airport was never a behemoth in the AA network post-deregulation.


Good analysis - I'm interested to see how this goes for AA for sure. I agree that this is probably their best use of slots since the longer domestic adds they've tried every now and then (IAH, DEN, etc) have flopped. I would REALLY be surprised if AA had strong POS from JFK to basically anywhere in the Caribbean at this point since B6 has really swept the market. DL is a formidable competitor, as is UA at EWR, and even BW probably has more loyalty from Caribbean bound travelers from JFK than AA does now. They're doing what they can but they'll probably just be chasing NYC vacationers vs. VFR traffic who regularly go back to the islands.

Re MBJ, basically any airline could fill a plane on that route. There’s some but not much VFR. It’s overwhelmingly tourist traffic. Re ANU, AA has been serving it nonstop from JFK for years now. The only airline that has been serving NYC-ANU for a longer current uninterrupted period is UA. AA has been the strongest carrier on NYC-ANU since it restarted its nonstop flight even after B6 started its own flight.

Saying all of that to say, that these Caribbean adds to JFK aren’t particularly risky for AA by any means. If anything, the start up of JFK-GEO was a much bigger surprise and much more of a sign that they’re not completely throwing in the towel.
 
SJOtoLIR
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:01 am

Proposed schedules for New York City - Costa Rica on American Airlines:

AA JFK 15.59....21.42 SJO...…738.....Daily
AA SJO 23.03...05.19+1 JFK...738......Daily
Effective: November 21st.
Available as year-round basis.
The northbound sector would be flown purely as "red-eyes."
That unusual timetable is likely due to the congestion at SJO into the daylight times.


AA JFK 07.00....10.55 LIR...738...Sa
AA LIR 11.04.....16.59 JFK..738...Sa
Effective: December 21st.
My interpretation is that one of the planes coming from either AA DFW-LIR, AA MIA-LIR or AA CLT-LIR will be heading later to JFK, regarding the nine minutes layover at LIR.


Both flights are bookable from July 01st onward.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:50 am

NYCVIE wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Abeam79 wrote:
I would surmise that AA is just trying to do what they can with their slot portfolio out of JFK. See if maybe it’s worth keeping it as a Northeast hub. It all depends on how this experiment plays out but I think if it doesn’t give them the return they expect which at this point I can’t see it being too lofty for them now that the B6 is a dominant Caribbean player out of jfk, in which case I could see them dehub jfk all together and refocusing it all to Philly. Time will tell, just my .02 cents


JFK is listed among AA's top airports, but it really isn't a hub and not widely promoted as such since the merger. Pre-US/AA, it was referred to as a "cornerstone" hub. JFK is an O&D station for AA to serve markets that it feels are key for its loyal customer base in the NYC area. Will they sell you a connecting flight through JFK, sure, but it serves an entirely different purpose than its true hub portfolio.

American suspended a lot of flights from JFK for the period in which the airport is down to 3 runways due to construction and the 737-MAX grounding, which caused AA to shift 737-800s around the system to compensate and that led to a number of JFK flights on the 738 being temporarily suspended, and got DOT permission to do so. After November, I'd guess they have to use the slots or lose them, so they're doing what they can where they think they can make money. SJO and LIR are popular destinations and AA has served SJO nonstop from JFK before as others have said. Same goes for MBJ and AA likely still has strong POS to Jamaica from both the NYC area and from Jamaica.

There is a lot of romanticizing about AA's former glory at JFK. Have they cut capacity and routes there, absolutely. TATL overlaps with PHL and they've designated PHL as their main gateway to Europe and one where there is so much less competition for them, though the O&D market is a lot smaller for sure. AA pulled Tokyo flights after the switch to HND, which lasted about 2 years, because the slot times were not business traveller friendly. They've dropped BRU, BHX, MAN, DUB and moved EDI back to PHL (seasonally) and ZRH to PHL year round, cut the second daily CDG nonstop (a while back), consolidated BCN from up to 2 daily 767-300ER flights to a single daily 777, made GIG seasonal, and ceded the majority of their NYC to the Caribbean network to B6, opting to focus on MIA instead. American has always been between 95 and 120 daily departures at JFK. The airport was never a behemoth in the AA network post-deregulation.


Good analysis - I'm interested to see how this goes for AA for sure. I agree that this is probably their best use of slots since the longer domestic adds they've tried every now and then (IAH, DEN, etc) have flopped. I would REALLY be surprised if AA had strong POS from JFK to basically anywhere in the Caribbean at this point since B6 has really swept the market. DL is a formidable competitor, as is UA at EWR, and even BW probably has more loyalty from Caribbean bound travelers from JFK than AA does now. They're doing what they can but they'll probably just be chasing NYC vacationers vs. VFR traffic who regularly go back to the islands.


Delta isn't so much a formidable competitor as much as an opportunist and timed their expansion in NYC, which was risky, and produced heavy losses for the first few years, at a time when their finances had been reorganized in Chapter 11 and just prior to the merger with NW. The merger itself gave DL more planes and staff to shift around the system and allowed it to spread those assets to NYC and JFK and LGA in particular, largely at the expense of CVG, which was useless in the expanded DL footprint given the DTW and MSP hubs it inherited from NW and which had very little competition and thus sizable pricing advantages to reap. As the industry began to consolidate in earnest, AA was left on the sidelines, with high operating costs, further aggravated by an aging fleet, the wrong balance of premium vs. leisure seating in its long haul cabins, not to mention a very mediocre premium product. Before UA and CO began to get a little closer in 2008-2009 which led to the merger, AA was looking at a merger with CO, and how that would work and likely assumed that would help it counter DL and B6 by having EWR. That did not work out for AA. It entered bankruptcy in 2011 when DL and NW were essentially fully integrated and reaping the benefits of it, and UA and CO were coming together (at that point, the big problems that emerged from the UA/CO merger integration did not begin to emerge and surface until late 2011). AA got US, which wasn't the best choice, but the only one left and US had a very small footprint in NYC relative to CO, DL, and B6 and had become even smaller with the DL slot swap (DCA for LGA).
 
NYCVIE
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:24 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

JFK is listed among AA's top airports, but it really isn't a hub and not widely promoted as such since the merger. Pre-US/AA, it was referred to as a "cornerstone" hub. JFK is an O&D station for AA to serve markets that it feels are key for its loyal customer base in the NYC area. Will they sell you a connecting flight through JFK, sure, but it serves an entirely different purpose than its true hub portfolio.

American suspended a lot of flights from JFK for the period in which the airport is down to 3 runways due to construction and the 737-MAX grounding, which caused AA to shift 737-800s around the system to compensate and that led to a number of JFK flights on the 738 being temporarily suspended, and got DOT permission to do so. After November, I'd guess they have to use the slots or lose them, so they're doing what they can where they think they can make money. SJO and LIR are popular destinations and AA has served SJO nonstop from JFK before as others have said. Same goes for MBJ and AA likely still has strong POS to Jamaica from both the NYC area and from Jamaica.

There is a lot of romanticizing about AA's former glory at JFK. Have they cut capacity and routes there, absolutely. TATL overlaps with PHL and they've designated PHL as their main gateway to Europe and one where there is so much less competition for them, though the O&D market is a lot smaller for sure. AA pulled Tokyo flights after the switch to HND, which lasted about 2 years, because the slot times were not business traveller friendly. They've dropped BRU, BHX, MAN, DUB and moved EDI back to PHL (seasonally) and ZRH to PHL year round, cut the second daily CDG nonstop (a while back), consolidated BCN from up to 2 daily 767-300ER flights to a single daily 777, made GIG seasonal, and ceded the majority of their NYC to the Caribbean network to B6, opting to focus on MIA instead. American has always been between 95 and 120 daily departures at JFK. The airport was never a behemoth in the AA network post-deregulation.


Good analysis - I'm interested to see how this goes for AA for sure. I agree that this is probably their best use of slots since the longer domestic adds they've tried every now and then (IAH, DEN, etc) have flopped. I would REALLY be surprised if AA had strong POS from JFK to basically anywhere in the Caribbean at this point since B6 has really swept the market. DL is a formidable competitor, as is UA at EWR, and even BW probably has more loyalty from Caribbean bound travelers from JFK than AA does now. They're doing what they can but they'll probably just be chasing NYC vacationers vs. VFR traffic who regularly go back to the islands.


Delta isn't so much a formidable competitor as much as an opportunist and timed their expansion in NYC, which was risky, and produced heavy losses for the first few years, at a time when their finances had been reorganized in Chapter 11 and just prior to the merger with NW. The merger itself gave DL more planes and staff to shift around the system and allowed it to spread those assets to NYC and JFK and LGA in particular, largely at the expense of CVG, which was useless in the expanded DL footprint given the DTW and MSP hubs it inherited from NW and which had very little competition and thus sizable pricing advantages to reap. As the industry began to consolidate in earnest, AA was left on the sidelines, with high operating costs, further aggravated by an aging fleet, the wrong balance of premium vs. leisure seating in its long haul cabins, not to mention a very mediocre premium product. Before UA and CO began to get a little closer in 2008-2009 which led to the merger, AA was looking at a merger with CO, and how that would work and likely assumed that would help it counter DL and B6 by having EWR. That did not work out for AA. It entered bankruptcy in 2011 when DL and NW were essentially fully integrated and reaping the benefits of it, and UA and CO were coming together (at that point, the big problems that emerged from the UA/CO merger integration did not begin to emerge and surface until late 2011). AA got US, which wasn't the best choice, but the only one left and US had a very small footprint in NYC relative to CO, DL, and B6 and had become even smaller with the DL slot swap (DCA for LGA).


You're not necessarily wrong but doesn't change the fact that at the moment DL is a formidable competitor in NY. Also the writing's been on the wall for AA for a long time because they never took B6 as seriously as they probably should have. 10 years ago AA was flying A300s to PR and DR and now nothing. I don't know if there's a similar recent example of a legacy being wiped out of a market this way except for maybe AA itself in BOS (and maybe DL in DFW). NY is not an easy market to compete in, now more than ever, but AA in recent years has shown they're basically not in the business of really competing or making long term investments in markets like NY, BOS, LA, and to an extent ORD.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:35 am

NYCVIE wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:

Good analysis - I'm interested to see how this goes for AA for sure. I agree that this is probably their best use of slots since the longer domestic adds they've tried every now and then (IAH, DEN, etc) have flopped. I would REALLY be surprised if AA had strong POS from JFK to basically anywhere in the Caribbean at this point since B6 has really swept the market. DL is a formidable competitor, as is UA at EWR, and even BW probably has more loyalty from Caribbean bound travelers from JFK than AA does now. They're doing what they can but they'll probably just be chasing NYC vacationers vs. VFR traffic who regularly go back to the islands.


Delta isn't so much a formidable competitor as much as an opportunist and timed their expansion in NYC, which was risky, and produced heavy losses for the first few years, at a time when their finances had been reorganized in Chapter 11 and just prior to the merger with NW. The merger itself gave DL more planes and staff to shift around the system and allowed it to spread those assets to NYC and JFK and LGA in particular, largely at the expense of CVG, which was useless in the expanded DL footprint given the DTW and MSP hubs it inherited from NW and which had very little competition and thus sizable pricing advantages to reap. As the industry began to consolidate in earnest, AA was left on the sidelines, with high operating costs, further aggravated by an aging fleet, the wrong balance of premium vs. leisure seating in its long haul cabins, not to mention a very mediocre premium product. Before UA and CO began to get a little closer in 2008-2009 which led to the merger, AA was looking at a merger with CO, and how that would work and likely assumed that would help it counter DL and B6 by having EWR. That did not work out for AA. It entered bankruptcy in 2011 when DL and NW were essentially fully integrated and reaping the benefits of it, and UA and CO were coming together (at that point, the big problems that emerged from the UA/CO merger integration did not begin to emerge and surface until late 2011). AA got US, which wasn't the best choice, but the only one left and US had a very small footprint in NYC relative to CO, DL, and B6 and had become even smaller with the DL slot swap (DCA for LGA).


More-so, AA was flying those A300's 4-5x daily to SDQ and STI. Now they are irrelevant in the JFK-Caribbean market.

You're not necessarily wrong but doesn't change the fact that at the moment DL is a formidable competitor in NY. Also the writing's been on the wall for AA for a long time because they never took B6 as seriously as they probably should have. 10 years ago AA was flying A300s to PR and DR and now nothing. I don't know if there's a similar recent example of a legacy being wiped out of a market this way except for maybe AA itself in BOS (and maybe DL in DFW). NY is not an easy market to compete in, now more than ever, but AA in recent years has shown they're basically not in the business of really competing or making long term investments in markets like NY, BOS, LA, and to an extent ORD.
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chepos
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:11 am

NYCVIE wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:

Good analysis - I'm interested to see how this goes for AA for sure. I agree that this is probably their best use of slots since the longer domestic adds they've tried every now and then (IAH, DEN, etc) have flopped. I would REALLY be surprised if AA had strong POS from JFK to basically anywhere in the Caribbean at this point since B6 has really swept the market. DL is a formidable competitor, as is UA at EWR, and even BW probably has more loyalty from Caribbean bound travelers from JFK than AA does now. They're doing what they can but they'll probably just be chasing NYC vacationers vs. VFR traffic who regularly go back to the islands.


Delta isn't so much a formidable competitor as much as an opportunist and timed their expansion in NYC, which was risky, and produced heavy losses for the first few years, at a time when their finances had been reorganized in Chapter 11 and just prior to the merger with NW. The merger itself gave DL more planes and staff to shift around the system and allowed it to spread those assets to NYC and JFK and LGA in particular, largely at the expense of CVG, which was useless in the expanded DL footprint given the DTW and MSP hubs it inherited from NW and which had very little competition and thus sizable pricing advantages to reap. As the industry began to consolidate in earnest, AA was left on the sidelines, with high operating costs, further aggravated by an aging fleet, the wrong balance of premium vs. leisure seating in its long haul cabins, not to mention a very mediocre premium product. Before UA and CO began to get a little closer in 2008-2009 which led to the merger, AA was looking at a merger with CO, and how that would work and likely assumed that would help it counter DL and B6 by having EWR. That did not work out for AA. It entered bankruptcy in 2011 when DL and NW were essentially fully integrated and reaping the benefits of it, and UA and CO were coming together (at that point, the big problems that emerged from the UA/CO merger integration did not begin to emerge and surface until late 2011). AA got US, which wasn't the best choice, but the only one left and US had a very small footprint in NYC relative to CO, DL, and B6 and had become even smaller with the DL slot swap (DCA for LGA).


You're not necessarily wrong but doesn't change the fact that at the moment DL is a formidable competitor in NY. Also the writing's been on the wall for AA for a long time because they never took B6 as seriously as they probably should have. 10 years ago AA was flying A300s to PR and DR and now nothing. I don't know if there's a similar recent example of a legacy being wiped out of a market this way except for maybe AA itself in BOS (and maybe DL in DFW). NY is not an easy market to compete in, now more than ever, but AA in recent years has shown they're basically not in the business of really competing or making long term investments in markets like NY, BOS, LA, and to an extent ORD.


How so in LAX? The airline has added flights and the international operation is larger than any of the other US3. Either way not the topic at hand, as is par for the course on this site, airline cancels flights to JFK people complain, airline adds flights at JFK people complan. Who understands armchair CEO’s on Anet.


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Brickell305
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Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:32 am

chepos wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

Delta isn't so much a formidable competitor as much as an opportunist and timed their expansion in NYC, which was risky, and produced heavy losses for the first few years, at a time when their finances had been reorganized in Chapter 11 and just prior to the merger with NW. The merger itself gave DL more planes and staff to shift around the system and allowed it to spread those assets to NYC and JFK and LGA in particular, largely at the expense of CVG, which was useless in the expanded DL footprint given the DTW and MSP hubs it inherited from NW and which had very little competition and thus sizable pricing advantages to reap. As the industry began to consolidate in earnest, AA was left on the sidelines, with high operating costs, further aggravated by an aging fleet, the wrong balance of premium vs. leisure seating in its long haul cabins, not to mention a very mediocre premium product. Before UA and CO began to get a little closer in 2008-2009 which led to the merger, AA was looking at a merger with CO, and how that would work and likely assumed that would help it counter DL and B6 by having EWR. That did not work out for AA. It entered bankruptcy in 2011 when DL and NW were essentially fully integrated and reaping the benefits of it, and UA and CO were coming together (at that point, the big problems that emerged from the UA/CO merger integration did not begin to emerge and surface until late 2011). AA got US, which wasn't the best choice, but the only one left and US had a very small footprint in NYC relative to CO, DL, and B6 and had become even smaller with the DL slot swap (DCA for LGA).


You're not necessarily wrong but doesn't change the fact that at the moment DL is a formidable competitor in NY. Also the writing's been on the wall for AA for a long time because they never took B6 as seriously as they probably should have. 10 years ago AA was flying A300s to PR and DR and now nothing. I don't know if there's a similar recent example of a legacy being wiped out of a market this way except for maybe AA itself in BOS (and maybe DL in DFW). NY is not an easy market to compete in, now more than ever, but AA in recent years has shown they're basically not in the business of really competing or making long term investments in markets like NY, BOS, LA, and to an extent ORD.


How so in LAX? The airline has added flights and the international operation is larger than any of the other US3. Either way not the topic at hand, as is par for the course on this site, airline cancels flights to JFK people complain, airline adds flights at JFK people complan. Who understands armchair CEO’s on Anet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's essentially a case of people trying to box everything into the neat, tidy narrative they've come up with. The narrative for months is that AA is at the point of completely de-hubbing JFK (and possibly LGA). When something occurs that doesn't fit that narrative (addition of new flights), there must be some way to twist it around in order to tie it back to the narrative.
 
NYCVIE
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:01 pm

Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:33 am

chepos wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

Delta isn't so much a formidable competitor as much as an opportunist and timed their expansion in NYC, which was risky, and produced heavy losses for the first few years, at a time when their finances had been reorganized in Chapter 11 and just prior to the merger with NW. The merger itself gave DL more planes and staff to shift around the system and allowed it to spread those assets to NYC and JFK and LGA in particular, largely at the expense of CVG, which was useless in the expanded DL footprint given the DTW and MSP hubs it inherited from NW and which had very little competition and thus sizable pricing advantages to reap. As the industry began to consolidate in earnest, AA was left on the sidelines, with high operating costs, further aggravated by an aging fleet, the wrong balance of premium vs. leisure seating in its long haul cabins, not to mention a very mediocre premium product. Before UA and CO began to get a little closer in 2008-2009 which led to the merger, AA was looking at a merger with CO, and how that would work and likely assumed that would help it counter DL and B6 by having EWR. That did not work out for AA. It entered bankruptcy in 2011 when DL and NW were essentially fully integrated and reaping the benefits of it, and UA and CO were coming together (at that point, the big problems that emerged from the UA/CO merger integration did not begin to emerge and surface until late 2011). AA got US, which wasn't the best choice, but the only one left and US had a very small footprint in NYC relative to CO, DL, and B6 and had become even smaller with the DL slot swap (DCA for LGA).


You're not necessarily wrong but doesn't change the fact that at the moment DL is a formidable competitor in NY. Also the writing's been on the wall for AA for a long time because they never took B6 as seriously as they probably should have. 10 years ago AA was flying A300s to PR and DR and now nothing. I don't know if there's a similar recent example of a legacy being wiped out of a market this way except for maybe AA itself in BOS (and maybe DL in DFW). NY is not an easy market to compete in, now more than ever, but AA in recent years has shown they're basically not in the business of really competing or making long term investments in markets like NY, BOS, LA, and to an extent ORD.


How so in LAX? The airline has added flights and the international operation is larger than any of the other US3. Either way not the topic at hand, as is par for the course on this site, airline cancels flights to JFK people complain, airline adds flights at JFK people complan. Who understands armchair CEO’s on Anet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It was a mistake to include LAX, thats my bad. I'm not sure how you're getting that I'm complaining, though or how I'm being an armchair CEO. My point was the fact that AA is basically a non-factor in NY-Caribbean especially relative to not too long ago. And clearly JFK isn't super high on AA's priority list, which is fine (and they have good reason for that). I'll never understand for some people how when you point something out you're branded as being a hater, especially re: AA @ JFK which for some reason people are personally attached to.

If I were to say EY is struggling compared to QR and EK, is that "complaining" or pointing something out? Please.
 
cm642
Posts: 97
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:16 pm

Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:11 am

CIDFlyer wrote:
Nice to see CID-PHX added. I could see it becoming year round, Phoenix is a popular destination from CID not to mention the connections it can provide. Just looking at Allegiants schedule to the area from CID they usually run 3-4 times a week and daily during spring break.


I can also see PHX-MSY going daily year-round as well!
 
Detroit313
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: AA Adds JFK-MBJ/SJO/LIR, PHX-CID/ICT/MSY + Caribbean Extensions/Increases

Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:49 am

JFK will get more Europe too. Probably ATH and a second Paris.

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