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edu2703
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TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:33 pm

The latest news from the Portuguese press about the A330-900neo

Over the past few months, several crew members and some passengers have filed complaints of sickness and vomiting on long-haul flights with the new A330neo aircraft. The case is being investigated by TAP and Airbus.

In the last episode, reported by the radio station TSF on Tuesday, the crew began to feel sick in the final stretch of a flight bound to Brazil and the pilots were seen wearing a mask.

The problem may be in the''air renewal system' inside the airplane and more specifically in the way the air drawn by the engine is being taken into the aircraft cabin, which is being insufficient, causes it to degrade, says TSF. The symptoms are felt more acutely at the end of long journeys, such as the intercontinental ones.

The cases have already been reported to the National Civil Aviation Authority (ANAC), which is working with the company. The complaints were also forwarded to the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), which assesses and certifies the safety of aircraft in European airspace.


Source: https://www.publico.pt/2019/06/25/socie ... ap-1877533

TAP Air Portugal confirmed on Tuesday, June 25, "occasional cases of crew members with slight indispositions" on some flights of the new Airbus A330-900neo aircraft, possibly associated with "some odors of the air conditioning equipment", ensuring it's a a normal occurrence on new aircrafts.

'The tests already carried out by both TAP and Airbus do not allow any correlation between these episodes and a hypothetical, but not demonstrated, deficiency in circulation and air renewal."

"The A330neo is an airplane with all the certifications by the national and international authorities and totally apt for the service of transport of passengers in total safety", says the company, emphasizing that "the cabins of Airbus are designed and manufactured in order to prevent any type of air contamination ".


Source: https://newsavia.com/tap-desvaloriza-ca ... 30-900neo/

Luciana Passo, president of Portugal's Union of Civil Aviation Flight Personnel confirmed that she was aware of about 12 reports from nine crew mebers. These cases, which according to Luciana Passo were transmitted to TAP, motivated a trip of union members to Airbus HQ in Toulouse on May 27, where a plane was grounded for a month for inspections. But according to the tests made at the time by the manufacturer, there was nothing irregular, she says.

The final inspection report, she adds, is expected by the end of July, but the persistence of these situations leads the responsible party to insist on a rapid corrective action and immediate mitigation of the causes for the problems identified. Luciana Passo says that the indispositions are not only in the final phases of the flights as it had been initially reported and that there were passengers who vomit in some of these trips.


Source: http://visao.sapo.pt/actualidade/econom ... cao-rapida
 
musman9853
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:14 pm

the a330neo uses bleed air right? maybe that's a contributing factor
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aircatalonia
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:38 pm

They forgot to switch this off. Happens all the time.

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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:13 pm

musman9853 wrote:
the a330neo uses bleed air right? maybe that's a contributing factor


So does the a332 and 333.

My hunch is that this has nothing to do with the aircraft and could be the interiors. Something relating to the fabric or adhesive.
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:22 pm

Other than the engine itself, is the A339 bleed air system any different from the A332/A333?
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:07 am

Could it be a by product of a work around of a Trent 1000 used on the 787 to make it work on the A330 as the T7000?
 
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:35 am

Too bad TAP is the only carrier operating them right now, it would be interesting to see if this was just a TAP issue or if other air carriers were having the same issues as well.
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:50 am

It's the "new plane smell" issue they are experiencing
 
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:54 am

musman9853 wrote:
the a330neo uses bleed air right? maybe that's a contributing factor


This is the first application of bleed air version of T1000 right?
 
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:59 am

LDRA wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
the a330neo uses bleed air right? maybe that's a contributing factor


This is the first application of bleed air version of T1000 right?

TXWB on A350XWB is a T1000 derivative with bleed air and has been out for a while.
T7000 on A330neo is a T1000 derivative with bleed air and hasn't been out as long.

Pretty hard to guess what's going on just from a media report.
Last edited by Revelation on Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:00 am

Super80Fan wrote:
Too bad TAP is the only carrier operating them right now, it would be interesting to see if this was just a TAP issue or if other air carriers were having the same issues as well.


Azul (8hr flight) and Air Senegal (6hr flight) are in the air right now too, so definitely not just TAP operating currently.
 
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:21 am

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Too bad TAP is the only carrier operating them right now, it would be interesting to see if this was just a TAP issue or if other air carriers were having the same issues as well.

Azul (8hr flight) and Air Senegal (6hr flight) are in the air right now too, so definitely not just TAP operating currently.

And Delta and Thai Airasia X will be joining in July.

I also think it has something to do with the interiors - seat fabric and adhesives used in the fittings may be the cause. New aircraft smell!
 
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:28 am

Antarius wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
the a330neo uses bleed air right? maybe that's a contributing factor


So does the a332 and 333.

My hunch is that this has nothing to do with the aircraft and could be the interiors. Something relating to the fabric or adhesive.


And this has been an issue with RR powered T700 A332s & A333s. Has nothing to do with fabrics or interior materials. More below. . .


DocLightning wrote:
Other than the engine itself, is the A339 bleed air system any different from the A332/A333?


Not significantly.

The most likely cause would be oil entering the the pneumatic bleeds at the engine end. There's a few reasons why that could happen, but the most common is the seals around the starter and/or IDG, particularly during an engine compressor wash. This is a well-documented occurrence, especially with the regard to the dirty sock smell mentioned.

I haven't worked an A33N mounted T7000 yet, so I do not know if the fix is the same as what we encountered on the T700, but I suspect it very likely will be.


A distant second for a possibility would be an oil leak in the APU into the APU's P-line. Not common, but it happens.
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:40 am

If it's a TAP only issue... could it be the bacalao?

:duck:
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:13 am

I thought the 7000 was derived directly from the 700?
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:27 am

FlightLevel360 wrote:
I thought the 7000 was derived directly from the 700?

It is derived from the Trent 1000TEN and Trent XWB - it is basically the latest incarnation of the Trent family.
 
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:32 am

aircatalonia wrote:
They forgot to switch this off. Happens all the time.

Image


Pro-tip right here.

Took me forever to figure out why I was feeling so tired and awful when I drove long distances in the winter with the heat blasting. Problem went away by turning this off.
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:38 am

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Too bad TAP is the only carrier operating them right now, it would be interesting to see if this was just a TAP issue or if other air carriers were having the same issues as well.


Azul (8hr flight) and Air Senegal (6hr flight) are in the air right now too, so definitely not just TAP operating currently.


My mistake, thought TAP was the only operator.
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:54 am

Question, how strict is the aircraft industry about performing off-gas testing on non-metallic materials?

Is it possible this is from the off-gassing of materials (IE: formaldehyde found in anti-seize compounds) used in the construction of the aircraft which might be exacerbated by it being newly built?

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/wstf/testi ... ssing.html
Last edited by Jouhou on Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:59 am

Super80Fan wrote:
Too bad TAP is the only carrier operating them right now, it would be interesting to see if this was just a TAP issue or if other air carriers were having the same issues as well.

Air Mauritius also operates 2 A330-900s, regularly to London on nearly 12h flights.
 
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:43 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Antarius wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
the a330neo uses bleed air right? maybe that's a contributing factor


So does the a332 and 333.

My hunch is that this has nothing to do with the aircraft and could be the interiors. Something relating to the fabric or adhesive.


And this has been an issue with RR powered T700 A332s & A333s. Has nothing to do with fabrics or interior materials. More below. . .


DocLightning wrote:
Other than the engine itself, is the A339 bleed air system any different from the A332/A333?


Not significantly.

The most likely cause would be oil entering the the pneumatic bleeds at the engine end. There's a few reasons why that could happen, but the most common is the seals around the starter and/or IDG, particularly during an engine compressor wash. This is a well-documented occurrence, especially with the regard to the dirty sock smell mentioned.

I haven't worked an A33N mounted T7000 yet, so I do not know if the fix is the same as what we encountered on the T700, but I suspect it very likely will be.


A distant second for a possibility would be an oil leak in the APU into the APU's P-line. Not common, but it happens.


This issue with the seals in the A330CEO RR were more common during the decent phase?
 
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:42 am

AECM wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Antarius wrote:

So does the a332 and 333.

My hunch is that this has nothing to do with the aircraft and could be the interiors. Something relating to the fabric or adhesive.


And this has been an issue with RR powered T700 A332s & A333s. Has nothing to do with fabrics or interior materials. More below. . .


DocLightning wrote:
Other than the engine itself, is the A339 bleed air system any different from the A332/A333?


Not significantly.

The most likely cause would be oil entering the the pneumatic bleeds at the engine end. There's a few reasons why that could happen, but the most common is the seals around the starter and/or IDG, particularly during an engine compressor wash. This is a well-documented occurrence, especially with the regard to the dirty sock smell mentioned.

I haven't worked an A33N mounted T7000 yet, so I do not know if the fix is the same as what we encountered on the T700, but I suspect it very likely will be.


A distant second for a possibility would be an oil leak in the APU into the APU's P-line. Not common, but it happens.


This issue with the seals in the A330CEO RR were more common during the decent phase?


Not necessarily, but it was known to happen then.

Just to be clear, this isn't actually an issue that was/is limited to RR products. Anything with bleeds and oil seals (which is almost everything) will be susceptible to this.

Generally, the most common factor is the water used on Compressor Washes. As it breaks away the sludges and tars that build up from these seal leaks (as it's supposed to do), some of that gets aerosol'd and passes into the bleed system. For this reason, most companies now specify a high power run within 120 minutes of a Wash Event being completed.

I've actually written/revised about a dozen Task Cards (and some EOs) for exactly this reason. It was a more common issue a few years back, and on more than one type.


What's written up in this article matches the symptoms we were dealing with, almost precisely. FWIW, between that and the testing interior materials go through, this is why I am highly skeptical of glues and fabrics being the issue (as well as the fact that it would have presented earlier and not at all suddenly).
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:52 am

Antarius wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
the a330neo uses bleed air right? maybe that's a contributing factor


So does the a332 and 333.

My hunch is that this has nothing to do with the aircraft and could be the interiors. Something relating to the fabric or adhesive.
ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Too bad TAP is the only carrier operating them right now, it would be interesting to see if this was just a TAP issue or if other air carriers were having the same issues as well.


Azul (8hr flight) and Air Senegal (6hr flight) are in the air right now too, so definitely not just TAP operating currently.
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:31 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
AECM wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:

And this has been an issue with RR powered T700 A332s & A333s. Has nothing to do with fabrics or interior materials. More below. . .




Not significantly.

The most likely cause would be oil entering the the pneumatic bleeds at the engine end. There's a few reasons why that could happen, but the most common is the seals around the starter and/or IDG, particularly during an engine compressor wash. This is a well-documented occurrence, especially with the regard to the dirty sock smell mentioned.

I haven't worked an A33N mounted T7000 yet, so I do not know if the fix is the same as what we encountered on the T700, but I suspect it very likely will be.


A distant second for a possibility would be an oil leak in the APU into the APU's P-line. Not common, but it happens.


This issue with the seals in the A330CEO RR were more common during the decent phase?


Not necessarily, but it was known to happen then.

Just to be clear, this isn't actually an issue that was/is limited to RR products. Anything with bleeds and oil seals (which is almost everything) will be susceptible to this.

Generally, the most common factor is the water used on Compressor Washes. As it breaks away the sludges and tars that build up from these seal leaks (as it's supposed to do), some of that gets aerosol'd and passes into the bleed system. For this reason, most companies now specify a high power run within 120 minutes of a Wash Event being completed.

I've actually written/revised about a dozen Task Cards (and some EOs) for exactly this reason. It was a more common issue a few years back, and on more than one type.


What's written up in this article matches the symptoms we were dealing with, almost precisely. FWIW, between that and the testing interior materials go through, this is why I am highly skeptical of glues and fabrics being the issue (as well as the fact that it would have presented earlier and not at all suddenly).


Compressor washes are common on A Check?
 
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:12 pm

AECM wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
AECM wrote:

This issue with the seals in the A330CEO RR were more common during the decent phase?


Not necessarily, but it was known to happen then.

Just to be clear, this isn't actually an issue that was/is limited to RR products. Anything with bleeds and oil seals (which is almost everything) will be susceptible to this.

Generally, the most common factor is the water used on Compressor Washes. As it breaks away the sludges and tars that build up from these seal leaks (as it's supposed to do), some of that gets aerosol'd and passes into the bleed system. For this reason, most companies now specify a high power run within 120 minutes of a Wash Event being completed.

I've actually written/revised about a dozen Task Cards (and some EOs) for exactly this reason. It was a more common issue a few years back, and on more than one type.


What's written up in this article matches the symptoms we were dealing with, almost precisely. FWIW, between that and the testing interior materials go through, this is why I am highly skeptical of glues and fabrics being the issue (as well as the fact that it would have presented earlier and not at all suddenly).


Compressor washes are common on A Check?


Wouldn't know specifically. I do not do a lot of A-Checks these days. I'm also pretty sure that the 33Ns are part of an MSGIII program anyway.

In any case, no, those washes are not tied to an A-check, if that's what you're asking. But they can be attached to a work-deck incidentally to an A-check, yes. They have their own periodicity, usually worked out between the OEM, Airline, and the whatever Vendor the Airline uses to perform the Washes (very few are performed in house, with most done as part of overnight visits).

Typically (as in almost universally), these are are scheduled after a certain number of Cycles. For Operators based in Salty or Sandy environments, a schedule based on simple days is sometimes call-out.
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:41 pm

Something is odd here. TP's longest A339 flight is LIS-SFO at well over 12 hours but if something like this would have happened on that flight it would have been all over the news here and yet it hasn't happened. Local news stations here in the U.S. love nothing more than good airline drama.
If I had to take a wild guess I'd say norovirus on one of the planes and it just needed a good scrubbing.
 
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:14 pm

airbazar wrote:
Something is odd here. TP's longest A339 flight is LIS-SFO at well over 12 hours but if something like this would have happened on that flight it would have been all over the news here and yet it hasn't happened. Local news stations here in the U.S. love nothing more than good airline drama.
If I had to take a wild guess I'd say norovirus on one of the planes and it just needed a good scrubbing.


Or maybe cause it's not boeing?
 
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:22 pm

airbazar wrote:
Something is odd here. TP's longest A339 flight is LIS-SFO at well over 12 hours but if something like this would have happened on that flight it would have been all over the news here and yet it hasn't happened. Local news stations here in the U.S. love nothing more than good airline drama.
If I had to take a wild guess I'd say norovirus on one of the planes and it just needed a good scrubbing.

It is not some mass event where like half the plane is suddenly sick after one flight. It is just a passenger or crew member here or there complaining. Evidently enough above noise that Airbus/TAP feel the need to look into it, but not enough that anyone in the general US media would ever really notice. Someone in the Portuguese press probably has some contacts at TAP that gave them a heads up that got the media ball rolling.
 
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:44 pm

Polot wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Something is odd here. TP's longest A339 flight is LIS-SFO at well over 12 hours but if something like this would have happened on that flight it would have been all over the news here and yet it hasn't happened. Local news stations here in the U.S. love nothing more than good airline drama.
If I had to take a wild guess I'd say norovirus on one of the planes and it just needed a good scrubbing.

It is not some mass event where like half the plane is suddenly sick after one flight. It is just a passenger or crew member here or there complaining. Evidently enough above noise that Airbus/TAP feel the need to look into it, but not enough that anyone in the general US media would ever really notice. Someone in the Portuguese press probably has some contacts at TAP that gave them a heads up that got the media ball rolling.

You could be right but you know it doesn't have to be a mass event to make the news, especially on an inbound international flight.
https://time.com/5491624/frontier-airli ... t-illness/
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/lo ... 29321.html
The news outlets here would be all over it if this happened on a flight to the U.S.
And it's not just a passenger or crew per event. In one event the report says "multiple people required oxygen masks".
 
oldannyboy
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:14 pm

Francoflier wrote:
If it's a TAP only issue... could it be the bacalao?

:duck:


:checkmark: :yes: They forgot to put it in the fridge....
 
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:00 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
If it's a TAP only issue... could it be the bacalao?

:duck:


:checkmark: :yes: They forgot to put it in the fridge....

I hope it is not like work this morning. We had to evacuate a meeting room when someone let rip a ripe one. I'm certain it couldn't have been because that one individual was non-technical person asking questions that shouldn't have been asked (answered in prior meeting).

Ok, being serious, it could be adhesives (e.g., carpet) or an engine oil seal. It happens. Although, the above event occured.

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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:31 pm

Francoflier wrote:
If it's a TAP only issue... could it be the bacalao?

The correct spelling is bacalhau (cod), but if it was a fish story I'd expect it to be on an FI 752 :)
 
edu2703
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:22 pm

Airlines Report Nausea-Inducing Cabin Fumes on Airbus’ A330neo

https://airlinegeeks.com/2019/06/29/a330neos-experiencing-fume-leakage-into-the-cabin/
 
LXwing
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:13 pm

edu2703 wrote:
Airlines Report Nausea-Inducing Cabin Fumes on Airbus’ A330neo

https://airlinegeeks.com/2019/06/29/a330neos-experiencing-fume-leakage-into-the-cabin/


This report is essentially false. :shakehead:
There have been no reported fume events, and there were no diversions or cancellations as far as it is known. The sickness reported by a few people in around a dozen separate events were said to be due to smell and not any type fumes. CS-TUF was in Toulouse for a few weeks and performed several test flights, but there is also no confirmation that it suffered any repair.
And there are no reports of additional events since the news first broke out, while the whole TAP A330neo fleet (around 10 aircraft) continues to be in normal daily operation.
 
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Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:29 pm

LXwing wrote:
edu2703 wrote:
Airlines Report Nausea-Inducing Cabin Fumes on Airbus’ A330neo

https://airlinegeeks.com/2019/06/29/a330neos-experiencing-fume-leakage-into-the-cabin/


This report is essentially false. :shakehead:
There have been no reported fume events, and there were no diversions or cancellations as far as it is known. The sickness reported by a few people in around a dozen separate events were said to be due to smell and not any type fumes. CS-TUF was in Toulouse for a few weeks and performed several test flights, but there is also no confirmation that it suffered any repair.
And there are no reports of additional events since the news first broke out, while the whole TAP A330neo fleet (around 10 aircraft) continues to be in normal daily operation.


False ? How ?

TAP have reported them and confirmed them, including sending an aircraft back to Airbus for a month should be enough to indicate that there is/was a problem. Even though Airbus couldn't find a problem doesn't mean one doesn't exist, it's just the nature of these fume events have been notoriously difficult to narrow down an exact cause.

Smells come from fumes, gases, etc, something is the source of the smell/fume and it is on board.

If you follow Av Herald, you will notice that there are quite a few of these events and they seem to effect the 320 series aircraft a lot more than others.
 
LXwing
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Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:32 pm

Re: TAP A330-900neo crew and passengers reporting dizziness and vomiting

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:38 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
LXwing wrote:
edu2703 wrote:
Airlines Report Nausea-Inducing Cabin Fumes on Airbus’ A330neo

https://airlinegeeks.com/2019/06/29/a330neos-experiencing-fume-leakage-into-the-cabin/


This report is essentially false. :shakehead:
There have been no reported fume events, and there were no diversions or cancellations as far as it is known. The sickness reported by a few people in around a dozen separate events were said to be due to smell and not any type fumes. CS-TUF was in Toulouse for a few weeks and performed several test flights, but there is also no confirmation that it suffered any repair.
And there are no reports of additional events since the news first broke out, while the whole TAP A330neo fleet (around 10 aircraft) continues to be in normal daily operation.


False ? How ?

TAP have reported them and confirmed them, including sending an aircraft back to Airbus for a month should be enough to indicate that there is/was a problem. Even though Airbus couldn't find a problem doesn't mean one doesn't exist, it's just the nature of these fume events have been notoriously difficult to narrow down an exact cause.

Smells come from fumes, gases, etc, something is the source of the smell/fume and it is on board.

If you follow Av Herald, you will notice that there are quite a few of these events and they seem to effect the 320 series aircraft a lot more than others.


Read my post carefully. I never claimed there is no problem or there were no sickness events. But what was reported were not fume events, but a few people felling sickness or nausea among hundreds of unaffected pax/crew. Smell does not equal fumes. And there were no diversions or cancellations that I am aware of. And it is curious how the quoted piece does not point any precise facts (diversion events, affected airline, etc). I am willing to be proven wrong, though.

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