sonicruiser
Topic Author
Posts: 468
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 am

LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:29 am

I've flown into LAX several times fairly recently and I cannot help but notice the sheer number of aircraft that are holding in position all around the airport, taxiing around in multiple circles for as long as 20-30 minutes waiting for a gate, while others don't get a gate at all and go straight to remote stands. For example, on one of my recent flights, right after landing we taxied past a queue of 4 AA planes that appeared to all be holding in position for a gate as both T4 and many of the remote gates were full. I don't recall LAX being this congested and the gate situation so dire even as recently as 1 or 2 years ago. Based on my very unscientific observation, I would roughly guesstimate that at least 1/3 of LAX's arrivals, especially Int'l arrivals nowadays go straight to a remote gate, while another 1/3 of arrivals have to hold for at least 15 min for a gate to open up. That means that roughly only 1/3 of flights arriving at LAX can find a gate without holding or taxiing around the airport or going to a remote stand.

I guess the good news is that this may get better after the MSC opens up, but with the rate of explosive growth at LAX, it may actually already be inadequate in terms of capacity.

Image
 
laxmia
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:04 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:25 am

No worse than any other airport in my experience. It seems like AA over-scheduled their banks (maybe just optimism?) and Int’l is at the mercy of common use. DL, UA and WN don’t seem to have consistent issues. And MSC will help Int’l and DL, as DL will get priority at some TBIT North gates.

Now the whole vehicle loop is another conversation altogether. The people mover can’t get here fast enough.
Last edited by laxmia on Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:25 am

As a pilot I certainly don't share your observations. Overall I would say LAX is one of the better or easier airports in the country to operate to. Sure some airlines might have more carrier specific issues or constraints, but the airport and ATC handling is really straightforward at LAX.

Per DOT stats since January LAX ranks middle of the pack, with 78.75% arrival ontime performance and 79.46 departure ontime performance. Pretty decent.
https://www.bts.gov/topics/airline-time-tables
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 1857
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:28 am

In many cases the gate might actually be available but because of the terminal design, sometimes open gates can't be reached due to alley congestion. The amount of heavy jets make pushbacks more difficult as well as more time consuming. By adding end gates that require A/C to push back on to the inner taxiways, ATC loses 50% of their usable taxiways to maneuver A/C around the airport. When A/C waiting for gates have to hold on active taxiways, it also makes moving other A/C more challenging.

When I worked the tower there, we didn't have taxiway "H" (between the 25's) so we had to hold A/C on "B" and "C" and it was NOT fun or efficient.

LAX is very fortunate that they don't get any more weather events than they do or it would really be a mess.
Every zoo is a petting zoo......if you're a man!
 
User avatar
janders
Moderator
Posts: 822
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:33 am

I also don't see airside being that big an issue.
Actually LAX is amazingly efficient being such a busy airport compared to peers across the nation.

Yes some airlines might be challenged more than others but this would be because their own scheduling practices or operational reliability, not fault of the airport.

Regarding remotes, obviously a portion of international flights will end up there as the common use TBIT has far more movements than gates.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23624
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:01 am

I think it's more an issue of certain airlines having messy operations.

I have specific stats at work, but would bet that AA and WN score on the lower end especially in recent months.

Regarding remotes, yes they are frequently used especially at night. The volume of flights far exceed TBIT gating capacity - for example you have airlines like Volaris that can have 6 aircraft on the ground simultaneously.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
jsnww81
Posts: 2509
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:29 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:30 am

As someone who moved to LA from Chicago, LAX still feels like a gift from God after spending almost two decades suffering at ORD. No thunderstorms, no snow, and four parallel runways that generally function pretty well.

I have noticed an uptick in flow-control holds over the last few months... I fly LAX-SJC-LAX almost every week for work, and on the return flight it's almost a given that we'll be given a 10-25 minute ground hold by LAX ATC after we push back at SJC. That never used to happen.

As a few others have said, gate holds are a little bit of a roulette wheel. I fly American most often, and would agree that they seem to have a tougher time than the other majors. I'd chalk that up to overscheduling (although it's not as bad now as it was in 2016, when they stretched T4 beyond its reasonable capacity and had to dial things back), having quite a few gates that often require tow-in (40, 41, 45) and sharing an alley with TBIT that shuts down any time a widebody pushes back. The PEK and PVG flights arrive at remote stands almost universally, but honestly they've gotten pretty good at deplaning and busing relatively quickly.

The landside congestion is a different story and seems to get worse by the day. The people mover project should have been started years ago and is only just now getting going. Forcing rideshares to use the upper level, which has half the number of lanes as the lower level, is probably the biggest culprit. Removing the TBIT-P3/P4 skybridges and replacing them with traffic lights didn't help either. Then there's aggressive driving by rental car shuttles - I can't wait for the day those disappear from World Way forever.
 
LAXBUR
Posts: 257
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:05 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:32 am

LAX is a bit of an enigma. Getting to the terminals is often a nightmare. I only fly in/out of LAX at off times (Sa/Tu/We). But curb to gate is unbeatable for a large airport. I mostly fly Alaska and Delta and almost every flight has some type of hold for a gate. Last flight landed 20 mins early but blocked in 10 mins late.
 
nine4nine
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:46 am

LAX has many positive things and hardly are there ever any long departure lines on either north or south side compared to many other major airports. Pushback to takeoff is generally only a few minutes.

-No crossing runways, and basically no weather.

-2 traversing north south taxiways.

-Center taxiway between 24L/24R


The only downside airside is the single center line alleyways which cause these ground holding patterns per the OP’s pic.

People can knock the design of LAX all they want but compared to its peers it is the most efficient. I think the only thing that could make LAX even better would be the ATL style taxiways at the end of the runways where the aircraft doesn’t need to cross an active.
717 727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 742 748 752 753 762 763 772 773 DC9 MD80/88/90 DC10 319 320 321 332 333 CS100 CRJ200 Q400 E175 E190 ERJ145 EMB120
 
ikramerica
Posts: 14865
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:51 am

jetblastdubai wrote:
In many cases the gate might actually be available but because of the terminal design, sometimes open gates can't be reached due to alley congestion. The amount of heavy jets make pushbacks more difficult as well as more time consuming. By adding end gates that require A/C to push back on to the inner taxiways, ATC loses 50% of their usable taxiways to maneuver A/C around the airport. When A/C waiting for gates have to hold on active taxiways, it also makes moving other A/C more challenging.

When I worked the tower there, we didn't have taxiway "H" (between the 25's) so we had to hold A/C on "B" and "C" and it was NOT fun or efficient.

LAX is very fortunate that they don't get any more weather events than they do or it would really be a mess.

Thats a lot of the problem. Single width alleyways and near terminal tow-in gates cause many of the holds.

Then there is the reality that if your flight arrived early, your gate wont be ready causing a hold. If winds are weak, LAX will experience many early arrivals from the eastern US that may not have a gate available. I personally would rather be in the air on time than on the ground early waiting, but the airline would rather save fuel and make customers sit for 30 minutes with no bathroom access, water, or in many cases IFE either. Really fun with little kids.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Chemist
Posts: 538
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:58 am

I find the waits for gates maddening.
I once had a choice of flying a connection to BUR or NS to LAX. I chose LAX and I would have been faster to BUR with a connection. We waited 45 mins for a gate. The parking shuttle took 25 mins to pick me up. The traffic on the 405 was a nightmare. BUR would have been quicker even with a one hour layover on the way.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:05 am

For LAX its sound normal... Yea your going to get some 45 min days but Mostly LAX is consistently the same.
 
User avatar
AirKevin
Posts: 483
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:18 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:22 am

nine4nine wrote:
-Center taxiway between 24L/24R

That would be 25L/25R that has the parallel taxiway between them.
Captain Kevin
 
flyboy80
Posts: 2014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:10 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:45 am

I wonder why Delta is congested. Part of their move to the North side was to be more efficient. They certainly aren't operating that many more flights, despite some up gauging to mainline. They went from about 12 gates at their former T5 location to at least six or seven more at 2/3 and one or two at TB-N. Are certain gates at 3 closed as they continue that project? I would imagine at sometime ALL of T3 would need to be closed as they rebuild certain pieces of it, however I imagine that's simply not possible given the requirements of the schedule. Has the new mid field concourse opened yet; That will contain how many gates?
 
User avatar
DL747400
Posts: 657
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:19 pm

flyboy80 wrote:
I wonder why Delta is congested. Part of their move to the North side was to be more efficient. They certainly aren't operating that many more flights, despite some up gauging to mainline. They went from about 12 gates at their former T5 location to at least six or seven more at 2/3 and one or two at TB-N. Are certain gates at 3 closed as they continue that project? I would imagine at sometime ALL of T3 would need to be closed as they rebuild certain pieces of it, however I imagine that's simply not possible given the requirements of the schedule. Has the new mid field concourse opened yet; That will contain how many gates?


I've not had any gate holds on DL since their move north to T2/T3, but I have experienced them on various carriers using the south side of LAX (AA, AS and UA).

Didn't DL indicate some time back that they would be using larger aircraft to increase LAX capacity as needed would not be increasing the number of flights at LAX until the construction is completed in 2022-23?

My observation in flying at least 5 different airlines in and out of LAX is that DL stands out as running a very smooth operation. There are always weather and ATC issues which can affect all carriers, but from my own travel experiences, DL seems to have better control of their operation and goes to greater lengths to protect the integrity of their operation than the other carriers.
Last edited by DL747400 on Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
User avatar
chunhimlai
Posts: 424
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:03 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:22 pm

Time to build new runways and new terminals
 
nine4nine
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:26 pm

AirKevin wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
-Center taxiway between 24L/24R

That would be 25L/25R that has the parallel taxiway between them.



You’re correct my error
717 727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 742 748 752 753 762 763 772 773 DC9 MD80/88/90 DC10 319 320 321 332 333 CS100 CRJ200 Q400 E175 E190 ERJ145 EMB120
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 165
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:09 pm

I'm in/out of LAX a few times a year. It's not that bad. Go to LGA or JFK. That's a disaster, and if there's weather you're really in trouble.

I think it depends when you're in/out of LAX. There are definitely banks/times of day where it gets busy, but for the most part it moves efficiently. The real problem at LAX isn't the tarmac or runways, it's the roads getting in/out and the traffic. That's terrible.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 762
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:22 pm

jsnww81 wrote:
As someone who moved to LA from Chicago, LAX still feels like a gift from God after spending almost two decades suffering at ORD. No thunderstorms, no snow, and four parallel runways that generally function pretty well.

I have noticed an uptick in flow-control holds over the last few months... I fly LAX-SJC-LAX almost every week for work, and on the return flight it's almost a given that we'll be given a 10-25 minute ground hold by LAX ATC after we push back at SJC. That never used to happen.

As a few others have said, gate holds are a little bit of a roulette wheel. I fly American most often, and would agree that they seem to have a tougher time than the other majors. I'd chalk that up to overscheduling (although it's not as bad now as it was in 2016, when they stretched T4 beyond its reasonable capacity and had to dial things back), having quite a few gates that often require tow-in (40, 41, 45) and sharing an alley with TBIT that shuts down any time a widebody pushes back. The PEK and PVG flights arrive at remote stands almost universally, but honestly they've gotten pretty good at deplaning and busing relatively quickly.

The landside congestion is a different story and seems to get worse by the day. The people mover project should have been started years ago and is only just now getting going. Forcing rideshares to use the upper level, which has half the number of lanes as the lower level, is probably the biggest culprit. Removing the TBIT-P3/P4 skybridges and replacing them with traffic lights didn't help either. Then there's aggressive driving by rental car shuttles - I can't wait for the day those disappear from World Way forever.


I have to relate a story: my husband and I were in Los Angeles this week, seeing both the JPL facilities on their tour and the Getty Center museum. This was my birthday present from April, with this last Monday being the first day a spot on the tour was available. To surprise me further, our hotel was the Hyatt Regency at LAX, specifically with a view of the runways (south side).

We parked our car and decided we would explore the area on foot. And I'm glad we did - something happened at the entrance to the airport, as traffic was backed up for more than a mile on southbound Sepulveda and Lincoln Expressway. We found ourselves surrounded by passengers literally running for their terminals, as gridlock had ensued at 10 PM. We never did see what it was, but it was proof positive that LAX needs multiple drop-off points outside of the World Way circle that are will reduce motor vehicles and prevent complete gridlock.

One of the reasons I am grateful for at SAN is that the new Terminal One plans were delayed until mass transit was taken into account. Harbor Drive can is hit or miss, but I've seen things go wrong and the area ends up in gridlock. The numbers at both airports is going to continue to climb, and mass transit is the only solution.
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 6516
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:57 pm

Having made it to the gate, how are the lines for clearing CBP on Int arrivals? Is there a quiet time to arrive?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
YYZORD
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:26 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:13 pm

Anyone know the ultimate capacity of LAX? Like what will they do once the capacity is reached, build a new airport like what Seattle is planning to do w SEA?
 
DoctorVenkman
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:25 pm

I fly a fair amount in and out of LAX on UA (so T7 and T8) and have not noticed any significant congestion. Often it's a short 5-10 minutes of taxiing to/from the runway, and only once have we been held waiting for a gate. Compared to ORD or JFK it's a dream.

The real congestion issue with LAX is the inner loop, which thankfully will be fixed when the people mover opens up in a few years. If you're in TBIT or T4, it can take 30-40 minutes getting from the airport entrance to your terminal on a bad day. Luckily T7 has the shortcut so you can get there much quicker.
Last edited by DoctorVenkman on Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Scarebus34
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:27 pm

YYZORD wrote:
Anyone know the ultimate capacity of LAX? Like what will they do once the capacity is reached, build a new airport like what Seattle is planning to do w SEA?

What? SNA/LGB/BUR/ONT ... there isn’t need to build a new airport.
 
sonicruiser
Topic Author
Posts: 468
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:37 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Having made it to the gate, how are the lines for clearing CBP on Int arrivals? Is there a quiet time to arrive?


It can get pretty backed up at times. For anyone wondering, this was roughly between 2 and 3PM. But usually it's not this bad.

Image
 
airfrancejfk
Posts: 459
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2002 1:05 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:41 pm

I wouldn’t use AA as a benchmark. Key reason being they share taxiway C10 with TBIT. This is a notoriously congested alleyway due to limited movement space in and out resulting in delays for both arriving and departing flights. Early arrivals are another issue. My experience with AA and DL is they usually will not have a gate if you arrive early. Similarly, the FAA and gate control have a robust plan for moving any early arriving flights to the remote gates to keep the taxiways clear. To further keep the gates open, TBIT routinely sends flights to the remotes if they have more than a 4 hour turn.

LAX has its share of problems and while the gate situation is tight, it’s certainly not as dire as in some airports.
 
737max8
Posts: 518
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:13 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:47 pm

I'm more concerned about getting to the actual terminals from the road. This week on Tuesday night, it took from 10pm-10:45pm to go 1.6 miles into the airport. Every road leading into LAX was complete gridlock.
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
Flown on: 717 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 7M8 744 744ER 752 753 762 763 772 773ER 788 789 A319/20/21 A332 A333 A343 A359 A388
 
metaldirtnskin
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:42 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:23 pm

It is probably much worse for some airlines than others - American Eagle flights notably use that godawful "Eagle's Nest" terminal with the bus connection. A couple years ago I flew into LAX several times annually for work, and the first time or two took the EUG-LAX non-stop. Often the time from landing to arriving at the main terminal was longer than the flight itself. After that I generally went EUG-SEA-LAX on AS - the hard product and flight times on AA (OO) are far better but the ground experience at LAX is so horrendous that it's not worth it. I would think the same is true for almost any non-mainline flight at LAX.
From worst to marginally not worst, sometimes
 
aklrno
Posts: 1498
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:18 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:34 pm

metaldirtnskin wrote:
It is probably much worse for some airlines than others - American Eagle flights notably use that godawful "Eagle's Nest" terminal with the bus connection. A couple years ago I flew into LAX several times annually for work, and the first time or two took the EUG-LAX non-stop. Often the time from landing to arriving at the main terminal was longer than the flight itself. After that I generally went EUG-SEA-LAX on AS - the hard product and flight times on AA (OO) are far better but the ground experience at LAX is so horrendous that it's not worth it. I would think the same is true for almost any non-mainline flight at LAX.

I fly AA RNO-LAX several times a year. I don't think it has ever taken me more than 15 minutes to get from the Eagles' nest to the main terminal. Only once I had to wait for the second bus because the first one filled up. Gate to bus stop is about 2 minutes. Once on the bus it's a 5 minute trip. Do you fly on an SST EUG-LAX? Normally that's about a 2 hour flight. Maybe you exaggerate just a bit?
 
Bradin
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:46 am

airfrancejfk wrote:
I wouldn’t use AA as a benchmark. Key reason being they share taxiway C10 with TBIT. This is a notoriously congested alleyway due to limited movement space in and out resulting in delays for both arriving and departing flights. Early arrivals are another issue. My experience with AA and DL is they usually will not have a gate if you arrive early. Similarly, the FAA and gate control have a robust plan for moving any early arriving flights to the remote gates to keep the taxiways clear. To further keep the gates open, TBIT routinely sends flights to the remotes if they have more than a 4 hour turn.

LAX has its share of problems and while the gate situation is tight, it’s certainly not as dire as in some airports.


At the same time though, AA does control the C9 and C10 ramp .
 
ericm2031
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:46 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:58 am

To me the most frustrating part is seeming to always take off on the runway on the opposite side of the airport from my terminal and then landing on the opposite side as well. Seems to be the case almost every time for me. I’m sure there are reasons certain planes are using certain runways, but the mile long taxi times are frustrating
 
User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:09 am

ericm2031 wrote:
To me the most frustrating part is seeming to always take off on the runway on the opposite side of the airport from my terminal and then landing on the opposite side as well. Seems to be the case almost every time for me. I’m sure there are reasons certain planes are using certain runways, but the mile long taxi times are frustrating


It’s primarily based on the STAR arrival route or SID departure route filed for a flight.

The reason LAX is very efficient from ATC perspective is that they are generally able to operate independent arrival and departure streams for each runway complex and avoid having flights crossover. For example departures to the north will use the north complex while ones to the south or eastward tend to use the south. Similar to arrivals from the north or west will tend to land on north side.

Yes ground taxi might seem annoying but airborne holding or extended track miles just to fit you into another complex a could be worse for everyone and certainly cost more money for the airlines.

For all the complaints here, I’ll take 100 LAX bids before having to operate trips into airports like JFK, EWR, SFO etc where weather and ATC create far worse havoc than the walk in the park that LAX is.
 
B747forever
Posts: 13758
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:49 am

ericm2031 wrote:
To me the most frustrating part is seeming to always take off on the runway on the opposite side of the airport from my terminal and then landing on the opposite side as well. Seems to be the case almost every time for me. I’m sure there are reasons certain planes are using certain runways, but the mile long taxi times are frustrating


Oh yeah, that is horrible. Especially UA with their many flights to SFO always have a long taxi time on both departure and arrival as the 24s are used for flights going north. Just compare the scheduled flight duration between Southwest and United on LAX-SFO and you will see how UA has taken this into account.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
aklrno
Posts: 1498
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:18 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:14 pm

UPlog wrote:
ericm2031 wrote:
To me the most frustrating part is seeming to always take off on the runway on the opposite side of the airport from my terminal and then landing on the opposite side as well. Seems to be the case almost every time for me. I’m sure there are reasons certain planes are using certain runways, but the mile long taxi times are frustrating


It’s primarily based on the STAR arrival route or SID departure route filed for a flight.

The reason LAX is very efficient from ATC perspective is that they are generally able to operate independent arrival and departure streams for each runway complex and avoid having flights crossover. For example departures to the north will use the north complex while ones to the south or eastward tend to use the south. Similar to arrivals from the north or west will tend to land on north side.

Yes ground taxi might seem annoying but airborne holding or extended track miles just to fit you into another complex a could be worse for everyone and certainly cost more money for the airlines.

For all the complaints here, I’ll take 100 LAX bids before having to operate trips into airports like JFK, EWR, SFO etc where weather and ATC create far worse havoc than the walk in the park that LAX is.

I'm definitely with you on this. SFO has a beautiful, well run terminal, but airside it's a mess. LAX airside runs well most of the time, with the exception of long taxi times if the terminal is on the wrong side for the direction you are headed, but once you arrive the take off queue is usually pretty short. Just the opposite at LGA, SFO, EWR in my experience. On balance the long take off delays seem worse to me than the taxi times at LAX.

Most of the times I've experienced delays waiting for a gate have been when the flight arrived early. I can't really expect the airline to have a gate waiting empty just in case a flight comes in early.

By far the worst part of LAX is the landslide congestion. When the train is done it will probably get much better. At least we can hope. There is no hope in the foreseeable future for airside problems at SFO, LGA, EWR, JFK. I wish more could be done to educate passengers trying to connect at LAX. There are tricks and shortcuts. LAX is trying to improve signage to simplify wayfinding but there is not much that can compare with advice from those familiar with LAX.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:20 pm

airfrancejfk wrote:
I wouldn’t use AA as a benchmark. Key reason being they share taxiway C10 with TBIT. This is a notoriously congested alleyway due to limited movement space in and out resulting in delays for both arriving and departing flights. Early arrivals are another issue. My experience with AA and DL is they usually will not have a gate if you arrive early. Similarly, the FAA and gate control have a robust plan for moving any early arriving flights to the remote gates to keep the taxiways clear. To further keep the gates open, TBIT routinely sends flights to the remotes if they have more than a 4 hour turn.

LAX has its share of problems and while the gate situation is tight, it’s certainly not as dire as in some airports.



I think your spot on and I'm seeing exactly what and they way your seeing LAX and AA DL has I fly those two mainly.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1065
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:19 am

The future of LAX is more and more congestion. The political reality is that there aren't ever going to be any more runways or any significant expansion. There is such demand/buying power there that airlines are gonna continue to try to put more and more and more capacity in there. Its gonna end up as congested as LGA.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 5367
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:59 am

ericm2031 wrote:

To me the most frustrating part is seeming to always take off on the runway on the opposite side of the airport from my terminal and then landing on the opposite side as well. Seems to be the case almost every time for me. I’m sure there are reasons certain planes are using certain runways, but the mile long taxi times are frustrating


Strange. Every time I've gone thru LAX I've always landed or taken off on the runway closest to their intended terminals. Granted I've been there like 8 times in 15 years.
Finally headed to DORKFEST! Sept 7, STL-LAX-PHX-STL. :cloudnine:
 
aeropix
Posts: 223
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:08 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:07 am

https://youtu.be/vymjn-Au0zc

People have been complaining about this for decades...
 
MrPeanut
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:11 am

I have to agree with earlier comments that the bigger issue is the road that road that runs along the terminal buildings. The gridlock is atrocious. If you need to get to AS, UA, or AA, your quickest solution is to get off at the WN terminal and walk across. The drive around can take 30+ minutes.
 
Myriad
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:28 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:00 am

UPlog wrote:
The reason LAX is very efficient from ATC perspective is that they are generally able to operate independent arrival and departure streams for each runway complex and avoid having flights crossover. For example departures to the north will use the north complex while ones to the south or eastward tend to use the south. Similar to arrivals from the north or west will tend to land on north side.


Yeah, that's for sure. It's pretty cool to watch center stack the arrivals for LAX as far east as Denver.
 
Themotionman
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:18 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:04 am

Do the aircraft parked at gate 151 at TBIT have to reverse all the way out to the main taxiway, I arrived into terminal 4 on the TBIT side and it looked a bit tight around 151 and it didn't look spacious enough to swing an aircraft round in it.
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 801
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:46 pm

metaldirtnskin wrote:
It is probably much worse for some airlines than others - American Eagle flights notably use that godawful "Eagle's Nest" terminal with the bus connection. A couple years ago I flew into LAX several times annually for work, and the first time or two took the EUG-LAX non-stop. Often the time from landing to arriving at the main terminal was longer than the flight itself. After that I generally went EUG-SEA-LAX on AS - the hard product and flight times on AA (OO) are far better but the ground experience at LAX is so horrendous that it's not worth it. I would think the same is true for almost any non-mainline flight at LAX.


I so wish they would make a separate airport entrance for the Eagle's Nest. It would make it such a fantastic experience for short hops on Eagle basically making it feel like a small regional airport.
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2525
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:01 pm

As an LAX based pilot, I would say that the airside is pretty straightforward and efficient, especially since DL moved to T2 &T3. That move really balanced airfield traffic much better with DL and WN on the north, while AA and UA hub on the south side. Taxi times between the north and south are pretty quick as well. Distance wise I doubt it's much different than leaving a gate on the west end of a concourse at DEN and going out to runway 08 for departure.

ATC is also accommodating when traffic allows them to get you on your preferred side for for takeoff or landing, though it's a busy airfield so often they simply don't have space to make those requests happen.

The landslide road system is a disaster. Traffic along Sepulveda and Century around 10 pm is unreal. That people mover can't be build quickly enough.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
aeropix
Posts: 223
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:08 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:43 pm

aklrno wrote:
When the train is done it will probably get much better. At least we can hope. .


Sure, but like most Southern Californians I'm guessing that you and everybody else is hoping that others will take the train so that your car journey to the terminal will be faster. I lived there for 20 years growing up and realized that was the overwhelming sentiment about public transport in Los Angeles - wishing that everyone else would use public transit so that my car commute would be faster.

I doubt this train thing by itself is the answer to the congestion. More likely multiple mandatory offsite remote checkin locations and mandatory consolidated offsite rental car facilities combined with enforced compulsory use of the train and a $10 road toll facility at the entrance to the terminal loop costing billions of dollars (which will never be forthcoming) would be the only viable solution.
 
User avatar
WALmsp
Posts: 277
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:39 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:59 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
metaldirtnskin wrote:
It is probably much worse for some airlines than others - American Eagle flights notably use that godawful "Eagle's Nest" terminal with the bus connection. A couple years ago I flew into LAX several times annually for work, and the first time or two took the EUG-LAX non-stop. Often the time from landing to arriving at the main terminal was longer than the flight itself. After that I generally went EUG-SEA-LAX on AS - the hard product and flight times on AA (OO) are far better but the ground experience at LAX is so horrendous that it's not worth it. I would think the same is true for almost any non-mainline flight at LAX.


I so wish they would make a separate airport entrance for the Eagle's Nest. It would make it such a fantastic experience for short hops on Eagle basically making it feel like a small regional airport.


Considering the future construction of T9 on that site, your wish will not come true. But I do believe that T9 will have separate access.
In memory of my Dad, Robert "Bob" Fenrich, WAL 1964-1979, MSP ONT LAX
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13844
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:32 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
ericm2031 wrote:

To me the most frustrating part is seeming to always take off on the runway on the opposite side of the airport from my terminal and then landing on the opposite side as well. Seems to be the case almost every time for me. I’m sure there are reasons certain planes are using certain runways, but the mile long taxi times are frustrating


Strange. Every time I've gone thru LAX I've always landed or taken off on the runway closest to their intended terminals. Granted I've been there like 8 times in 15 years.


It’s at least somewhat destination-dependent. For instance, there’s much less need to flights to Hawaii and the South Pacific, which are going more or less straight out on uncongested airways, to cross over.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Bradin
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:27 pm

Themotionman wrote:
Do the aircraft parked at gate 151 at TBIT have to reverse all the way out to the main taxiway, I arrived into terminal 4 on the TBIT side and it looked a bit tight around 151 and it didn't look spacious enough to swing an aircraft round in it.


Gate 151 is a ADG III gate. The LAX TBIT gate assignment protocols indicate Gate 151 supports Boeing 757s and smaller. However, I suspect that all aircraft is towed out close to the intersection of C-10 and C for engine start and pivot somewhere around Gate 153-155 because the aircrafts aren't of significant length.

https://www.lawa.org/-/media/lawa-web/l ... 3BACAFC92C

I know for certain something similar occurs over at Terminal 1 with Southwest Airlines where they do that on taxiway D-7 for aircraft leaving Gate 9, and 11A. I've left a few times out of those gates and they push the 737s tail first towards D, and then do a 180 degree turn around Gate 13/15.
 
atcdan
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:52 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:38 pm

Just a comment on the original post: It's common to have multiple AA planes waiting for gates, as they over-schedule their gates. IF the arriving plane is not early AND the departure is not delayed, then you may have a seamless operation, but AA seems to be the worst just anecdotally from an ATC perspective.

I appreciate all the user observations here, generally planes will take off from the runway closest to where they are parked when there is low traffic demand. That being said, ATC does attempt to prioritize AA, UA, AS, etc that have taxied around the airport over DL and WN departures that have just pushed.
Tower Controller
VNY, DFW, LAX
All posts are my own opinions and do not represent my employer or any government entity in any way!
 
Western727
Posts: 1628
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:26 pm

laxmia wrote:
Now the whole vehicle loop is another conversation altogether. The people mover can’t get here fast enough.


I'm with you on that. I've made it a personal policy to fly to LAX on one of the T6-T8 airlines and from there on one of the T1-T-3 airlines, whenever possible, to help mitigate that issue.
Jack @ AUS
 
blockski
Posts: 490
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:52 pm

aeropix wrote:
aklrno wrote:
When the train is done it will probably get much better. At least we can hope. .


Sure, but like most Southern Californians I'm guessing that you and everybody else is hoping that others will take the train so that your car journey to the terminal will be faster. I lived there for 20 years growing up and realized that was the overwhelming sentiment about public transport in Los Angeles - wishing that everyone else would use public transit so that my car commute would be faster.

I doubt this train thing by itself is the answer to the congestion. More likely multiple mandatory offsite remote checkin locations and mandatory consolidated offsite rental car facilities combined with enforced compulsory use of the train and a $10 road toll facility at the entrance to the terminal loop costing billions of dollars (which will never be forthcoming) would be the only viable solution.


Yes, time and time again, the only proven way to reduce congestion is to tax it.

The APM won't reduce congestion in and of itself, but it will give travelers another option (several, actually) for where to be dropped off. That should make the overall experience much better.

The next step would be financial - some kind of fees or tolls for entering the loop, better management strategies for the TNCs (Uber, Lyft, etc), and so on.
 
User avatar
jsnww81
Posts: 2509
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:29 am

Re: LAX congestion getting out of control?

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:07 pm

blockski wrote:

Yes, time and time again, the only proven way to reduce congestion is to tax it.

The APM won't reduce congestion in and of itself, but it will give travelers another option (several, actually) for where to be dropped off. That should make the overall experience much better.

The next step would be financial - some kind of fees or tolls for entering the loop, better management strategies for the TNCs (Uber, Lyft, etc), and so on.


World Way won't get better until they get Uber and Lyft out of there. The rental car shuttle drivers are buttholes, sure, and removing the buses and vans will help a lot, but the congestion spiraled out of control when rideshare appeared on the scene a few years ago. I haven't seen any formal announcement on where rideshares will go when the people mover opens yet, but I'm hopeful it will be to one of the new remote facilities. And I say that as someone who uses rideshare to get to/from LAX nearly every week.

When the ground transportation center opens up I'll happily get dropped off/picked up there if I can be assured of a more reliable entry/exit.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos