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AC77X
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:21 am

sasd209 wrote:
AC77X wrote:
I'm finding all of this hard to believe... I just find it outrageous that the manufacturer of some of the world's most advanced vehicles can make so many mistakes like this. First the 737, then the 787, now the 787 again...
That being said, I find it interesting that we are having a sudden surge of AC related topics.


Hard to believe? You must be new to aviation manufacturing. Discrepancies and non-conformance issues occur every day... the idea is to catch em before the product leaves the factory. Sadly, when dealing with people, this is not always possible..

Not new, I just don't see what the point of doing it is if you will get caught eventually and have to fix it.
 
jagraham
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:44 am

OA940 wrote:
AC77X wrote:
I'm finding all of this hard to believe... I just find it outrageous that the manufacturer of some of the world's most advanced vehicles can make so many mistakes like this. First the 737, then the 787, now the 787 again...
That being said, I find it interesting that we are having a sudden surge of AC related topics.


Don't forget the whole KC-46 issues too (even though it's quite similar to the 787 story). I really like Boeing, but in the last 6 months they've showed themselves to be extremely petty.


KC-46 doesn't count. Other than the graft (job for child). The rest is due to moving targets courtesy of US Air Force.

Can't excuse the MAX or the 787; although the 787 is a misbehavior by a couple of individuals (as far as we know right now). Hopefully this isn't a 'make rate at all costs' thing. The article didn't cover that aspect. But if the firings are challenged, more details might come out . . .
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:43 am

MD80Ttail wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Am I wrong in thinking this is actually not all that uncommon? Not saying it's ok, just that it happens more often than it makes its way to a.net.


It’s called pencil whipping. It’s fairly common in the industry. Too many regulations and useless paperwork encourage the practice. Not good when it involves a real maintenance issue. It’s most commonly seen with paperwork only and record keeping. It’s been done and around as long as planes have been flying.

This is a nothing burger. No one died. All is well.


This exists in other industries involving some manner of certification as well. This isn't an uncommon thing, and when intentional it's a result of complacency and an individual employee not understanding the potential consequences of their actions. Sometimes it results from just simply doing the same things over and over again every day of their lives and they legitimately thought they worked/tested/inspected something but they didn't, their memories are just blurring their days together.
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tjcab
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:58 am

OA940 wrote:
I really like Boeing, but in the last 6 months they've showed themselves to be extremely petty.


Actually, there were serious quality issues with the NG, just didn't get much attention. Parts from suppliers not meeting spec; then falsified, for poorly corrected and still installed. there was a whole documentary on this. If i remember, they said there were 3 (I can't remember the exact number) similar to the TK 738 crash in AMS (I think one was an AA 738 in KIN). They all broke at identical spots, around where the allegedly defective parts would have been installed. The thing is, the employees always seem to want to do right, management not. Profit over quality. Boeing quality control auditors were terminated when they raised concerns according to the documentary.

Shameful
 
YYZatcboy
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:11 am

tjcab wrote:
OA940 wrote:
I really like Boeing, but in the last 6 months they've showed themselves to be extremely petty.


Actually, there were serious quality issues with the NG, just didn't get much attention. Parts from suppliers not meeting spec; then falsified, for poorly corrected and still installed. there was a whole documentary on this. If i remember, they said there were 3 (I can't remember the exact number) similar to the TK 738 crash in AMS (I think one was an AA 738 in KIN). They all broke at identical spots, around where the allegedly defective parts would have been installed. The thing is, the employees always seem to want to do right, management not. Profit over quality. Boeing quality control auditors were terminated when they raised concerns according to the documentary.

Shameful


Can you find a link to that documentary?
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:24 am

sxf24 wrote:
How do you know this was a cultural issue rather than individual laziness?


Because this sort of stuff is happening way too often, it a corporate culture problem that needs to be addressed from the top down.

Sloppy 737MAX MCAS implementation and 'hiding' it from FAA & pilots (plus the other issues now emerging).
Falsification of 787 records.
FOD and tools being left in KC-46s (so much that the AF keeps refusing to take delivery).

And still people line up here to defend and excuse Boeing.
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Fiend
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:36 am

Jouhou wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Am I wrong in thinking this is actually not all that uncommon? Not saying it's ok, just that it happens more often than it makes its way to a.net.


It’s called pencil whipping. It’s fairly common in the industry. Too many regulations and useless paperwork encourage the practice. Not good when it involves a real maintenance issue. It’s most commonly seen with paperwork only and record keeping. It’s been done and around as long as planes have been flying.

This is a nothing burger. No one died. All is well.


This exists in other industries involving some manner of certification as well. This isn't an uncommon thing, and when intentional it's a result of complacency and an individual employee not understanding the potential consequences of their actions. Sometimes it results from just simply doing the same things over and over again every day of their lives and they legitimately thought they worked/tested/inspected something but they didn't, their memories are just blurring their days together.


The company I work for was involved in a QA records falsification scandal. The investigation found systematic failures in management and resulted in compensation having to be paid to the customer. The Chief Executive eventually resigned over the issue. My company survived the falsification scandal but it took a long time for the company to regain trust.

Falsifying records, especially when the safety of a aircraft is involved, is not acceptable.
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Bobloblaw
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:18 am

1989worstyear wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
At this rate, Boeing need not worry about the "MAX" branding any more. If they aren't careful, it'll be the "Boeing" name that will be scaring off passengers.


Judging from the comments section it looks like it already is, at least here in Canada.

So is Westjet flying around empty planes?
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:27 am

scbriml wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
How do you know this was a cultural issue rather than individual laziness?


Because this sort of stuff is happening way too often, it a corporate culture problem that needs to be addressed from the top down.

Sloppy 737MAX MCAS implementation and 'hiding' it from FAA & pilots (plus the other issues now emerging).
Falsification of 787 records.
FOD and tools being left in KC-46s (so much that the AF keeps refusing to take delivery).

And still people line up here to defend and excuse Boeing.
The introduction of the 787. Everyone assumed that was a learning experience for Boeing. Apparently not.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:29 am

Jouhou wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Am I wrong in thinking this is actually not all that uncommon? Not saying it's ok, just that it happens more often than it makes its way to a.net.


It’s called pencil whipping. It’s fairly common in the industry. Too many regulations and useless paperwork encourage the practice. Not good when it involves a real maintenance issue. It’s most commonly seen with paperwork only and record keeping. It’s been done and around as long as planes have been flying.

This is a nothing burger. No one died. All is well.


This exists in other industries involving some manner of certification as well. This isn't an uncommon thing, and when intentional it's a result of complacency and an individual employee not understanding the potential consequences of their actions. Sometimes it results from just simply doing the same things over and over again every day of their lives and they legitimately thought they worked/tested/inspected something but they didn't, their memories are just blurring their days together.
That why you have two people signing of on a piece of work. Sign and countersign. This is done on the assumption that people make mistakes.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:34 am

RickNRoll wrote:
scbriml wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
How do you know this was a cultural issue rather than individual laziness?


Because this sort of stuff is happening way too often, it a corporate culture problem that needs to be addressed from the top down.

Sloppy 737MAX MCAS implementation and 'hiding' it from FAA & pilots (plus the other issues now emerging).
Falsification of 787 records.
FOD and tools being left in KC-46s (so much that the AF keeps refusing to take delivery).

And still people line up here to defend and excuse Boeing.
The introduction of the 787. Everyone assumed that was a learning experience for Boeing. Apparently not.

It was a learning experience for Boeing and for Airbus as well. The 787 was the most difficult and revolutionary aircraft ever built both in terms of the aircraft its self and how it was manufactured. The A350 has had the benefit of coming 2nd and thus learnning from the 787s difficulties.
 
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MaxiAir
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:19 am

YYZatcboy wrote:
tjcab wrote:
OA940 wrote:
I really like Boeing, but in the last 6 months they've showed themselves to be extremely petty.


Actually, there were serious quality issues with the NG, just didn't get much attention. Parts from suppliers not meeting spec; then falsified, for poorly corrected and still installed. there was a whole documentary on this. If i remember, they said there were 3 (I can't remember the exact number) similar to the TK 738 crash in AMS (I think one was an AA 738 in KIN). They all broke at identical spots, around where the allegedly defective parts would have been installed. The thing is, the employees always seem to want to do right, management not. Profit over quality. Boeing quality control auditors were terminated when they raised concerns according to the documentary.

Shameful


Can you find a link to that documentary?



Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0
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Jouhou
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:45 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:

It’s called pencil whipping. It’s fairly common in the industry. Too many regulations and useless paperwork encourage the practice. Not good when it involves a real maintenance issue. It’s most commonly seen with paperwork only and record keeping. It’s been done and around as long as planes have been flying.

This is a nothing burger. No one died. All is well.


This exists in other industries involving some manner of certification as well. This isn't an uncommon thing, and when intentional it's a result of complacency and an individual employee not understanding the potential consequences of their actions. Sometimes it results from just simply doing the same things over and over again every day of their lives and they legitimately thought they worked/tested/inspected something but they didn't, their memories are just blurring their days together.
That why you have two people signing of on a piece of work. Sign and countersign. This is done on the assumption that people make mistakes.


I am familiar with this, same things I said before. I should also add it happens sometimes when some engineer some where decided to put out instructions that aren't actually humanly possible, that also gets pen-whipped. Like sometimes lockwiring. When someone is tasked to lockwire fasteners in a spot where it's not actually possible to lockwire the fasteners. This happens all the time and does not get worked out of designs. No one redesigns things to accommodate human mechanic limitations, instead it's expected mechanics do the impossible. So they just sign for doing it because some engineer somewhere at some point in time didn't take human accessibility into account.
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Armodeen
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:35 pm

This was the point I was going to make. That BOTH the mechanic and the inspector felt that this was acceptable practice (or, if a mistake, felt it necessary to cover it up) smacks of cultural issues at Boeing.

This is all very worrying. What is going on over there?!

SteelChair wrote:
The problem with firing the people is that Boeing created the culture to encourage their bad behavior in the first place. By firing them, Boeing dealt with the symptom, not the disease. They need leadership change and cultural change imho.

Punitive action is not acceptable in a safety conscious business, which should encourage people to report problems not hide them.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:18 pm

This is also the site where a noose was hung over an employee's desk. Very real cultural problems there in other ways.
 
sxf24
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:48 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
This is also the site where a noose was hung over an employee's desk. Very real cultural problems there in other ways.


I think it is fair to say that is indicative of a cultural problem in the US, not at a company.
 
JQ321
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:49 pm

The sad thing is this only came out due to the 737MAX Crashes. If they never happened we wouldn't be hearing about this. I Wonder what more Boeing is hiding and whether Airbus is also hiding anything. I would assume they both are.
 
VS11
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:03 am

MaxiAir wrote:
YYZatcboy wrote:
tjcab wrote:

Actually, there were serious quality issues with the NG, just didn't get much attention. Parts from suppliers not meeting spec; then falsified, for poorly corrected and still installed. there was a whole documentary on this. If i remember, they said there were 3 (I can't remember the exact number) similar to the TK 738 crash in AMS (I think one was an AA 738 in KIN). They all broke at identical spots, around where the allegedly defective parts would have been installed. The thing is, the employees always seem to want to do right, management not. Profit over quality. Boeing quality control auditors were terminated when they raised concerns according to the documentary.

Shameful


Can you find a link to that documentary?



Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0


Very interesting and scary documentary . Thanks for the link.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:05 am

JQ321 wrote:
The sad thing is this only came out due to the 737MAX Crashes. If they never happened we wouldn't be hearing about this. I Wonder what more Boeing is hiding and whether Airbus is also hiding anything. I would assume they both are.


There are always compromises at a large company. Modern checks and balances, combined with empowering employees to report and correct safety deficiencies, are key. There is a lot, and I mean a lot, that happens every day that would scare the unititiated if they ever found out.

And just for the record, the Al Jazeera piece was a hit piece imho. Lots of cheap shots in that one, trying to sow discontent, par for the course for them. The reality is that the CHS factory was/is badly needed. Many in the organized labor ranks at SEA needed a wakeup call imho. They must know now that even after the current agreements expire, they CANNOT slow down or go on strike. Their leadership (management really, they are ineffective leaders) have screwed up so badly so many times that only the employees can get the company back on track. Hopefully CHS stays non-union forever. The 1930s are long past. Mho.
 
VS11
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:27 am

SteelChair wrote:
JQ321 wrote:
The sad thing is this only came out due to the 737MAX Crashes. If they never happened we wouldn't be hearing about this. I Wonder what more Boeing is hiding and whether Airbus is also hiding anything. I would assume they both are.


There are always compromises at a large company. Modern checks and balances, combined with empowering employees to report and correct safety deficiencies, are key. There is a lot, and I mean a lot, that happens every day that would scare the unititiated if they ever found out.

And just for the record, the Al Jazeera piece was a hit piece imho. Lots of cheap shots in that one, trying to sow discontent, par for the course for them. The reality is that the CHS factory was/is badly needed. Many in the organized labor ranks at SEA needed a wakeup call imho. They must know now that even after the current agreements expire, they CANNOT slow down or go on strike. Their leadership (management really, they are ineffective leaders) have screwed up so badly so many times that only the employees can get the company back on track. Hopefully CHS stays non-union forever. The 1930s are long past. Mho.


Do you even read what your write? You claim "Modern checks and balances, combined with empowering employees to report and correct safety deficiencies, are key." and then turn around and say that the documentary was a hit piece with cheap shots WHEN the point of the documentary is that Boeing turned against its own people when same employees of many years did not accept the work of outside suppliers. It was not even about Boeing's work but the work of outside suppliers and Boeing still turned against them after so many internal Boeing folks were shocked at the shoddy work. These employees were trying to protect Boeing and the public and got the boot.
 
travelhound
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:32 am

Just have a look at the workmanship of repairs performed by some of the MRO's.
 
fightforlove
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:27 am

kabq737 wrote:
Spetsnaz55 wrote:
Oh one Boeing mechanic and a qa inspector stamped something false and the news says the whole company is responsible.. just wonderful. Both people were fired. I wonder what's next

I’m sorry but the company is responsible. It’s still their airplane and most importantly the “error” was made by Boeing employees that Boeing hired. I think it’s pretty reasonable to say that those employees were the reason for this but that Boeing is responsible for it.


If it is an isolated incident (which do sometimes happen in every industry), there's not much else Boeing can do than fire the people who falsified the records. If it is a trend at Boeing for employees to fudge documents and records then it is a reflection of their company culture which is absolutely their top management's responsibility. Many aerospace industry sectors have been through massive cycles of lay-offs and budget cuts in recent years. Middle managers are under pressure to produce results, workers labor under the stress , morale plummets, and bad things happen. Boeing and Airbus are both lucky there are such high entry barriers to the commercial airplane industry, or both of them would be toast by now.
 
Babyshark
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:37 am

Wasn't it Richard Anderson a few years ago that said Boeing was a ship without a rudder? Seems they really are.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:22 am

Babyshark wrote:
Wasn't it Richard Anderson a few years ago that said Boeing was a ship without a rudder? Seems they really are.


Would love to see the link for that quote.....
 
talonone
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:56 am

It seems that we keep forgetting what Boeing is producing people! Not freezers or tables, but airplanes! It is not aceptable that 360 people had do die to see the real problem! It is all about money, about stocks, shareholders and so on. I think this crap must stop right now, and I hope that (Yeah, I know it is a joke, and is kind of a dream) FE :mad: D Will throw on Boeing ALL THE BOOK!!! :mad:
That B is producing planes in SC!? Fine by me. But why do they not permit sindicates!? Simply; low paid workers, nobody can say a think because next day Will be searching for work. Are we back in the slavery ages?
The space and human stupidity are endless. Maybe the space is not... but the human stupidity for sure!
 
AEROFAN
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:25 pm

One of the courses I had to take in B-School was Ethics. It's amazing the maleficence that continue to be perpetrated by corporations that should know and do better.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
TObound
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:41 pm

nycbjr wrote:
sigh again? Man I'm finding it hard to defend Boeing.

That said in a company as large as they are how do you weed out bad apples like this? Im glad it was caught and they reported, thats something at least.


They "self-reported" after the aircraft developed a leak and Air Canada told Boeing what happened. That doesn't sound anything like due diligence on Boeing's part.

Couple this with the USAF finding trash in new refuelers and you really have to wonder about QA at Boeing. Finding out that they hired $9/hr programmers to develop MCAS is icing on the cake.

Gotta wonder whether any employees or execs (especially) at Boeing give a damn. From the outside, doesn't look like it.
 
TObound
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:44 pm

Spetsnaz55 wrote:
Oh one Boeing mechanic and a qa inspector stamped something false and the news says the whole company is responsible.. just wonderful. Both people were fired. I wonder what's next


You get food poisoning at a restaurant. Who is liable? The restaurant or just the chef?

People seem to forget the other half of the phrase, "A few bad apples...."

The other half of that is, "....spoil the bunch."
 
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smittythepirate
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:45 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
This is also the site where a noose was hung over an employee's desk. Very real cultural problems there in other ways.


Nothing has confirmed that the plane involved was a Charleston plane. Do we have a trail number?
www.jbweather.com
 
many321
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:10 pm

MaxiAir wrote:
YYZatcboy wrote:
tjcab wrote:

Actually, there were serious quality issues with the NG, just didn't get much attention. Parts from suppliers not meeting spec; then falsified, for poorly corrected and still installed. there was a whole documentary on this. If i remember, they said there were 3 (I can't remember the exact number) similar to the TK 738 crash in AMS (I think one was an AA 738 in KIN). They all broke at identical spots, around where the allegedly defective parts would have been installed. The thing is, the employees always seem to want to do right, management not. Profit over quality. Boeing quality control auditors were terminated when they raised concerns according to the documentary.

Shameful


Can you find a link to that documentary?



Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0


I'm watching it and wow talk about trying to warn what could happen with the 737 if something done improperly. Saldy, we've seen in it with the MAX crashes.
 
xmp125a
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:49 pm

Spetsnaz55 wrote:
xmp125a wrote:
Spetsnaz55 wrote:
Oh one Boeing mechanic and a qa inspector stamped something false and the news says the whole company is responsible.. just wonderful. Both people were fired. I wonder what's next


"Corrective actions" should be next, so that it does not happen again. And this is the area where Boeing constantly dragged their collective feet when confronted by FAA.



Read the article. Boeing found the problem and corrective action was initiated right away. Problem fixed. Employees fired.


This is not a corrective action in the terms of air safety. Read the other article on how Boeing dragged their feet when FAA demanded improvements upon finding sometimes horrible production practices. Corrective action means that systems are put in place that another team of two (!!) bad actors cannot do something like that again.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:11 pm

Get a grip! AC found a fuel leak, reported it to Boeing. If Boeing were as bad as most are implying they would have fixed it as a warranty repair, and kept the cause and any investigation under wraps. Instead they investigated, found the malfeasance, and SELF REPORTED IT TO THE FAA. What do you want them to do? They are clearly saying that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated. And for anyone who thinks that ANY company the size of Boeing, no matter how well run, does not have employees who will try things like this, have I got a deal for you on a bridge in Brooklyn.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
jmc1975
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:53 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Am I wrong in thinking this is actually not all that uncommon? Not saying it's ok, just that it happens more often than it makes its way to a.net.


I don't know whether it's common or not, but that being published now with the Max' catastrophes and ensuing scrutiny is not good for Boeing. Didn't they knew, back then, when TW800 exploded, that there was a risk with the exact same fuel tank that caused the explosion?

The aircraft was over 25 years old at the time...no fault of Boeing there. The missile fired from the sea was unavoidable.
.......
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:42 pm

scbriml wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
How do you know this was a cultural issue rather than individual laziness?


Because this sort of stuff is happening way too often, it a corporate culture problem that needs to be addressed from the top down.

Sloppy 737MAX MCAS implementation and 'hiding' it from FAA & pilots (plus the other issues now emerging).
Falsification of 787 records.
FOD and tools being left in KC-46s (so much that the AF keeps refusing to take delivery).

And still people line up here to defend and excuse Boeing.


Because we know how to use search engines and CNA easily find cases of Airbus, Embraer, etc having quality control issues...
 
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tjcab
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:10 pm

MaxiAir wrote:
YYZatcboy wrote:
tjcab wrote:

Actually, there were serious quality issues with the NG, just didn't get much attention. Parts from suppliers not meeting spec; then falsified, for poorly corrected and still installed. there was a whole documentary on this. If i remember, they said there were 3 (I can't remember the exact number) similar to the TK 738 crash in AMS (I think one was an AA 738 in KIN). They all broke at identical spots, around where the allegedly defective parts would have been installed. The thing is, the employees always seem to want to do right, management not. Profit over quality. Boeing quality control auditors were terminated when they raised concerns according to the documentary.

Shameful


Can you find a link to that documentary?



Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0



And: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWxxtzBTxGU same story, different channel, I guess?
 
travelsonic
Posts: 91
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:23 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
This is a nothing burger. No one died. All is well.


Nobody dying somehow = a perceived issue being absolutely nothing?

Isn't that a bit of a tricky mindset to hold on to, and work with?

I mean, sure, we didn't have fatal consequences here and now, but do we even want to entertain the possibility of complacency causing issues, whether here or in other areas, or nip it in the bud?

Somehow, when I see this reply, assuming I am not misunderstanding things, I can't help but think of the mindset that lead (indirectly maybe) to accidents like Swissair 111. If I remember correctly, regulators knew those Mylar insulation blankets were flammable but decided to not do further tests and/or ban them because of a similar mindset.
 
caljn
Posts: 258
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:31 pm

All reasons why we need a robust government and smart regulation (protections). And leadership that does not lie, daily, with impunity and without consequence, or who line their pockets through their public position. It creates a culture where others push the limits and see what they can get away with and a disregard for the rules and ethics. Character matters. Hopefully things will change in the not to distant future...say Jan. 2021.
 
A320FlyGuy
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:39 pm

Absynth wrote:
TVNWZ wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
With 160,000 employees there will always be bad actors. Unless directed by multiple layers of management it is impossible to say there’s a cultural problem.


Yep. Like to know what company in the world with this many people does not have bad actors like this. My guess: zero.


We've had these stories now for years (the Al-Jazeera doc comes to mind; the Seattle times story and many others), how many of these stories have been reported from Airbus?

Not saying there are none, but you're dismissing this way, way too easily.


Last time I checked, Airbus has never had a product grounded for the kinds of things Boeing has. The last 2 major programs have endured groundings that are serious safety issues that Boeing has tried to explain away. Time has run out. Boeing is pulling what I like to call a MacDac....letting known engineering problem persist into production and then waiting for regulatory enforcement for a fix. I have no confidence in Boeing anymore. The company ethics went out the window a long time ago.
My other car is an A320-200
 
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dik909
Posts: 188
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:44 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
Am I wrong in thinking this is actually not all that uncommon? Not saying it's ok, just that it happens more often than it makes its way to a.net.


According to my buddy who works at Airbus' Hamburg facility, it happens to both major airlines, and more than either would care to publicly admit.
Last edited by dik909 on Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
trex8
Posts: 5557
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:55 pm

dik909 wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Am I wrong in thinking this is actually not all that uncommon? Not saying it's ok, just that it happens more often than it makes its way to a.net.


According to my buddy who works at Airbus' Hamburg facility, it happens to both major airlines, and more than either would care to publicly admit.

They let bad workmanship occur (happens everywhere just to varying degrees depending on industry and company) or they have people falsify documentation for problems which could be major safety issues. Two quite different issues.
 
sxf24
Posts: 993
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:13 pm

A320FlyGuy wrote:
Absynth wrote:
TVNWZ wrote:

Yep. Like to know what company in the world with this many people does not have bad actors like this. My guess: zero.


We've had these stories now for years (the Al-Jazeera doc comes to mind; the Seattle times story and many others), how many of these stories have been reported from Airbus?

Not saying there are none, but you're dismissing this way, way too easily.


Last time I checked, Airbus has never had a product grounded for the kinds of things Boeing has. The last 2 major programs have endured groundings that are serious safety issues that Boeing has tried to explain away. Time has run out. Boeing is pulling what I like to call a MacDac....letting known engineering problem persist into production and then waiting for regulatory enforcement for a fix. I have no confidence in Boeing anymore. The company ethics went out the window a long time ago.


Goggle H225 helicopter.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:15 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Because we know how to use search engines and CNA easily find cases of Airbus, Embraer, etc having quality control issues...


Well I guess that makes it all OK then? :sarcastic:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
sxf24
Posts: 993
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Boeing falsified records for a 787 sold to AC

Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:17 pm

scbriml wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Because we know how to use search engines and CNA easily find cases of Airbus, Embraer, etc having quality control issues...


Well I guess that makes it all OK then? :sarcastic:


There’s a distinction, that appears to be lost on must members here, between the fact that any quality and safety issues are unacceptable and that the current situation with the MAX means Boeing is bad and Airbus is good.

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