Asiaflyer
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KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:45 pm

As many already has speculated here at Anet, KLM and AF are swapping widebody ordes, to make all remaining 787 to go to KLM while AF takes all A350 on order.

Story from Reuters:

PARIS, June 28 (Reuters) - Air France-KLM AIRF.PA said its separate Air France and KLM airline units would be swapping over some remaining orders from Boeing BA.N and Airbus AIR.PA, in a move which Air France KLM said would help its fleet run more efficiently.

The swap means that in the 2021-2023 timeframe, the six remaining Boeing 787 ordered for Air France will be transferred to KLM, and the current 7 Airbus A350-900s on order for KLM will be transferred to Air France.

"This is the first step towards harmonizing and simplifying the Air France-KLM Group fleet at its two major airlines," said Air France KLM CEO Benjamin Smith.
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KLDC10
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:48 pm

Link to an article here: https://www.euronews.com/2019/06/28/air ... ency-drive

This move makes a lot of sense. Simplifies both fleets with little effort.
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
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DL747400
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:48 pm

Asiaflyer wrote:
"This is the first step towards harmonizing and simplifying the Air France-KLM Group fleet at its two major airlines," said Air France KLM CEO Benjamin Smith.


That process should have commenced a decade ago.
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gatibosgru
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:19 pm

Was looking forward to seeing the A350 in KLM colors.
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AMS18C36C
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:27 pm

Makes sense, as it prevents a subfleet op a mere seven 350-900’. Unless I’m mistaken, the 787-10 and 359 in KLM’sfleet would have a similar configuration and seat count. Can the 787-10 do everything the 359 would have done at KLM?
 
factsonly
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:34 pm

The AF/KLM Press release does not confirm whether or not the AF 789 orders which are transferred to KLM, will transition from 787-9 to 787-10. Though certain press reports do state this.

"KLM presently operates 13 Boeing 787-9s and will receive its first Boeing 787-10 in June 2019. This fleet will further grow to a total of 21 Boeing 787s by the end of 2020 to which will be added the 6 Boeing 787s initially intended for Air France for a total of 27 aircraft."

Potentially the KLM B787 fleet could consist of:
- 13x B787-9
- 14x B787-10

https://www.airfranceklm.com/en/air-fra ... haul-fleet
 
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MoKa777
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:40 pm

What about the 9 or so 789 already in the AF fleet? Anyone care to speculate?
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airzona11
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:21 pm

AMS18C36C wrote:
Makes sense, as it prevents a subfleet op a mere seven 350-900’. Unless I’m mistaken, the 787-10 and 359 in KLM’sfleet would have a similar configuration and seat count. Can the 787-10 do everything the 359 would have done at KLM?


I think this is what makes the swap make so much sense.
 
VSMUT
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:42 pm

AMS18C36C wrote:
Makes sense, as it prevents a subfleet op a mere seven 350-900’. Unless I’m mistaken, the 787-10 and 359 in KLM’sfleet would have a similar configuration and seat count. Can the 787-10 do everything the 359 would have done at KLM?


It was never going to be just 7. It was just the initial order. They still have a ton of options, and I would be really surprised if it isn't happening sooner or later.

The 787-10 will struggle to replace the 777-200 on the routes to Asia.
 
inkjet7
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:30 pm

AMS18C36C wrote:
Makes sense, as it prevents a subfleet op a mere seven 350-900’. Unless I’m mistaken, the 787-10 and 359 in KLM’sfleet would have a similar configuration and seat count. Can the 787-10 do everything the 359 would have done at KLM?


No they are different planes. Different optimisations. But KLM operates their 777's and 787's as one fleet. They can swap (sub) types as necessary. And they have several routes that better fit the 787.
Last edited by inkjet7 on Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:31 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
What about the 9 or so 789 already in the AF fleet? Anyone care to speculate?

No speculation necessary, AF will continue to operate them, and will eventually have a fleet of 10 787-9.

VSMUT wrote:
AMS18C36C wrote:
Makes sense, as it prevents a subfleet op a mere seven 350-900’. Unless I’m mistaken, the 787-10 and 359 in KLM’sfleet would have a similar configuration and seat count. Can the 787-10 do everything the 359 would have done at KLM?


It was never going to be just 7. It was just the initial order. They still have a ton of options, and I would be really surprised if it isn't happening sooner or later.

The 787-10 will struggle to replace the 777-200 on the routes to Asia.

On some, yes. But the 787-10 isn't replacing KL's 77E (yet). Possibly the 787s initially destined for AF will replace the small KL A333 fleet, which leases will expire the next few years.
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LY777
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:34 pm

It seems like the 787s at AF will have the same fate as their 763s
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LY777
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:35 pm

Maybe in 10 years, AF will get new 787s to replace the A332s?
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smartplane
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:19 pm

AMS18C36C wrote:
Makes sense, as it prevents a subfleet op a mere seven 350-900’. Unless I’m mistaken, the 787-10 and 359 in KLM’sfleet would have a similar configuration and seat count. Can the 787-10 do everything the 359 would have done at KLM?

Or an attempt to kill KLM by allocating them an all Boeing brand fleet?
 
kimimm19
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:32 pm

What a farce...

Any chance of AF's already delivered 787s being transferred to KLM?
 
ScottB
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:47 pm

LY777 wrote:
It seems like the 787s at AF will have the same fate as their 763s


To never be washed?
 
Antarius
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:17 pm

smartplane wrote:
AMS18C36C wrote:
Makes sense, as it prevents a subfleet op a mere seven 350-900’. Unless I’m mistaken, the 787-10 and 359 in KLM’sfleet would have a similar configuration and seat count. Can the 787-10 do everything the 359 would have done at KLM?

Or an attempt to kill KLM by allocating them an all Boeing brand fleet?


:roll:

Idiotic comments. I'm a fan of different planes from different manufacturers including A, B, Embraer etc. But I feel like I need to wear a B hat to counter the absolute uneducated tripe being spewed here.

Also, KLM is the successful member of the partnership. So unless AF wants to completely fail, your comments are even more ludicrous.
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Antarius
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:22 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
What a farce...

Any chance of AF's already delivered 787s being transferred to KLM?


Why? This makes a lot of sense for both parties. Fleet commonality and right sizing. AF, by virtue of size and Paris is the bigger party, they can fill larger aircraft better. They also have the ability to maintain a fleet of 787s and a359s for different purposes.

Both great planes that now fit their future owners better. AF and KL will benefit from this.
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Jetty
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:08 am

Antarius wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
What a farce...

Any chance of AF's already delivered 787s being transferred to KLM?


Why? This makes a lot of sense for both parties. Fleet commonality and right sizing. AF, by virtue of size and Paris is the bigger party, they can fill larger aircraft better.

Bigger isn’t always better. KL is more profitable, has the higher load-factor and is slot limited at its homebase. Enough reasons why a bigger plane might make more sense at KLM. But as long as they still have the 777-300ER the range/capacity of the A350 isn’t really needed thus this seems like a sensible decision regardless.

Unreported is that KL recently ordered an extra 787-10 so it recieves the same amount of 787’s as previously planned A350’s.
 
kimimm19
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:29 am

Antarius wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
What a farce...

Any chance of AF's already delivered 787s being transferred to KLM?


Why? This makes a lot of sense for both parties. Fleet commonality and right sizing. AF, by virtue of size and Paris is the bigger party, they can fill larger aircraft better. They also have the ability to maintain a fleet of 787s and a359s for different purposes.

Both great planes that now fit their future owners better. AF and KL will benefit from this.



A farce because it took the group (ehem AF) this long to make up its mind to something which always seemed neither here nor there and now it's not doing a hell of a lot of difference with AF already have 9 787s in the fleet.
 
inkjet7
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:40 am

kimimm19 wrote:
What a farce...

Any chance of AF's already delivered 787s being transferred to KLM?


Could be (configuration is similar) but they won't be for the moment.
 
rbavfan
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:04 am

AMS18C36C wrote:
Makes sense, as it prevents a subfleet op a mere seven 350-900’. Unless I’m mistaken, the 787-10 and 359 in KLM’sfleet would have a similar configuration and seat count. Can the 787-10 do everything the 359 would have done at KLM?

Similar counts maybe, but no the 787-10 cannot do everything the A350 can, but the 777-9 should fix that at KLM.
 
inkjet7
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:07 am

Jetty wrote:

Unreported is that KL recently ordered an extra 787-10 so it recieves the same amount of 787’s as previously planned A350’s.


During #PAS19 they agreed to lease another 787-10 from ALC, for delivery H1 2021. On May 1, 2021 the last two 747's will be phased out.
 
VSMUT
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:42 am

LY777 wrote:
It seems like the 787s at AF will have the same fate as their 763s


What, phased out early? Disagree. More 787s will, like the A350 for KLM, come at some point - just later. Like the A350, the group has many options for that type too.

Air France has an ageing fleet of 777-200ERs. The oldest are from 1998. The oldest KLM 777-200ERs are a good 5 years younger. It makes sense to focus all the A350s at Air France. The number of aircraft currently order is also enough to pretty much replace the entire AF 777-200ER fleet on a one-for-one basis.


Antarius wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
What a farce...

Any chance of AF's already delivered 787s being transferred to KLM?


Why? This makes a lot of sense for both parties. Fleet commonality and right sizing. AF, by virtue of size and Paris is the bigger party, they can fill larger aircraft better. They also have the ability to maintain a fleet of 787s and a359s for different purposes.

Both great planes that now fit their future owners better. AF and KL will benefit from this.


:checkmark:

The farce would be to not distribute aircraft orders across the group so as to achieve the best results.
 
inkjet7
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:54 am

VSMUT wrote:
What, phased out early? Disagree. More 787s will, like the A350 for KLM, come at some point - just later. Like the A350, the group has many options for that type too.


PH-BKA, KL's 14th 787, will only be their #5 from the AF/KL order of 25 (and 25 options). The other 9 are leased so even more options for the future remain. For the A350 the group has 25 orders and 35 options. that could cover many of the older 772's.
 
VSMUT
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:15 am

inkjet7 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
What, phased out early? Disagree. More 787s will, like the A350 for KLM, come at some point - just later. Like the A350, the group has many options for that type too.


PH-BKA, KL's 14th 787, will only be their #5 from the AF/KL order of 25 (and 25 options). The other 9 are leased so even more options for the future remain. For the A350 the group has 25 orders and 35 options. that could cover many of the older 772's.


Air France-KLM combined only has 40 777-200ERs, so it won't just cover many of them, it will cover them all and then some! Points to A350-1000s in the future.
 
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Slash787
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:32 am

Nothing surprising at all for me, I knew this would happen.
 
inkjet7
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:53 am

VSMUT wrote:
Air France-KLM combined only has 40 777-200ERs, so it won't just cover many of them, it will cover them all and then some! Points to A350-1000s in the future.


By the time they need to replace their 77W's.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:15 am

Wouldn't it make sense for Air France and Boeing to swap the 787-9 of Air France and the A330 of KLM for each other? Both are small fleets within the companies now.
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VSMUT
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:22 am

Dutchy wrote:
Wouldn't it make sense for Air France and Boeing to swap the 787-9 of Air France and the A330 of KLM for each other? Both are small fleets within the companies now.


Only if they swap crews and KLM starts sending 787s to CDG for maintenance too. If not, that's a tremendous amount of waste right there. Type ratings aren't cheap.
 
CFRPwingALbody
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:33 pm

I think this is a bad situation for KLM, though they are most likely in favour of it now. The KLM fleet and their seating offering makes them outsiders in the TransAtlantic partnership.
(?Alitalia, Air France/KLM, Delta and Virgin Atlantic)
AF/KLM is really making KLM the budget Airline of the group with this plane swap.
Possibly the introduction of Y+ (economy comfort) could bring KLM back in line with the rest of the partnership members. (8AB Y 787 >32"pitch) But they will remain operating different plane types then the rest of the group. So on for example AMS-ATL you'll see 2x Delta A330NEO & 2x KLM 787-10; guess what passengers will favour.
Last edited by CFRPwingALbody on Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FlyingHollander
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:51 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
they will remain operating different plane types then the rest of the group. So on for example AMS-JFK you'll see 2x Delta A330NEO & 2x KLM 787-10; guess what passengers will favour.

1. The cheapest option. 2. The option that is timed best for them. In that order. 99% of people don't know/care what type of aircraft they'll be on.
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FB330
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:52 pm

The only bad situation this is for is us nutters who like to see variety. Passengers won’t notice any difference to care and I’m sure this decision has been made for sound economical reasons. Sooner or later KLM will need a replacement for the 772 and there is a chance something like the 350 will come then. If not, KLM will be find the route sweet spot between 77Ws and 787s I’m sure.
 
Flanker7
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:19 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
I think this is a bad situation for KLM, though they are most likely in favour of it now. The KLM fleet and their seating offering makes them outsiders in the TransAtlantic partnership.
(?Alitalia, Air France/KLM, Delta and Virgin Atlantic)
AF/KLM is really making KLM the budget Airline of the group with this plane swap.
Possibly the introduction of Y+ (economy comfort) could bring KLM back in line with the rest of the partnership members. (8AB Y 787 >32"pitch) But they will remain operating different plane types then the rest of the group. So on for example AMS-ATL you'll see 2x Delta A330NEO & 2x KLM 787-10; guess what passengers will favour.


I still fail to see how and why people think it's the budget Airline of the group.
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panamair
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:41 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
I think this is a bad situation for KLM, though they are most likely in favour of it now. The KLM fleet and their seating offering makes them outsiders in the TransAtlantic partnership.
(?Alitalia, Air France/KLM, Delta and Virgin Atlantic)
AF/KLM is really making KLM the budget Airline of the group with this plane swap.
Possibly the introduction of Y+ (economy comfort) could bring KLM back in line with the rest of the partnership members. (8AB Y 787 >32"pitch) But they will remain operating different plane types then the rest of the group. So on for example AMS-ATL you'll see 2x Delta A330NEO & 2x KLM 787-10; guess what passengers will favour.


Huh? AF will continue to operate the 787s they already have and they are already using it across the Atlantic, and VS certainly has a fleet of 787s as well across the Atlantic. And both AF and VS are 9 abreast in Y on the 787s.

In terms of Y+, I think you mean a separate Premium Economy cabin, not Economy Comfort which KL already has (same Y seats but more legroom etc); and DL continues to have many 763s flying across the Atlantic which have no separate Premium Economy (or Premium Select as DL calls it) cabin.
Last edited by panamair on Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Antarius
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:43 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
I think this is a bad situation for KLM, though they are most likely in favour of it now. The KLM fleet and their seating offering makes them outsiders in the TransAtlantic partnership.
(?Alitalia, Air France/KLM, Delta and Virgin Atlantic)
AF/KLM is really making KLM the budget Airline of the group with this plane swap.
Possibly the introduction of Y+ (economy comfort) could bring KLM back in line with the rest of the partnership members. (8AB Y 787 >32"pitch) But they will remain operating different plane types then the rest of the group. So on for example AMS-ATL you'll see 2x Delta A330NEO & 2x KLM 787-10; guess what passengers will favour.


What?

Most passengers can't tell an a330 from a 787. And if they can, the "dreamliner" branding actually helps (similar to the a380, people actually remember the branding of a few types). Considering KLM is by far the more profitable and successful partner of AFKL, I doubt they are being made to be the "budget carrier".

Also, you are claiming that this hurts KLM and makes them passenger unfriendly and then compare them to Alitalia? Talk about a terrible airline.
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airzona11
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:28 pm

FlyingHollander wrote:
CFRPwingALbody wrote:
they will remain operating different plane types then the rest of the group. So on for example AMS-JFK you'll see 2x Delta A330NEO & 2x KLM 787-10; guess what passengers will favour.

1. The cheapest option. 2. The option that is timed best for them. In that order. 99% of people don't know/care what type of aircraft they'll be on.


Well said. And the most important factor, the highest paying passengers are going to chose #2. The high yielding passengers get a wonderful experience either way. The dead horse keeps getting beaten!
 
EddieDude
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:21 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
The KLM fleet and their seating offering makes them outsiders in the TransAtlantic partnership.
(?Alitalia, Air France/KLM, Delta and Virgin Atlantic)...

Possibly the introduction of Y+ (economy comfort) could bring KLM back in line

How are they outsiders? The only major differences I see among those carriers that you mention are (i) AF having F-class on certain aircraft; and (ii) KL being the only carrier without a proper Premium Economy and without plans to install a proper Premium Economy cabin.

KL already has Economy Comfort or "Y+". They offer several rows with better pitch and recline. What they lack is Premium Economy or "W". That I give you, but not all carriers believe there is such a great market for that class. Let us remember TK removing Premium Economy altogether.
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h1fl1er
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:34 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
I think this is a bad situation for KLM, though they are most likely in favour of it now. The KLM fleet and their seating offering makes them outsiders in the TransAtlantic partnership.
(?Alitalia, Air France/KLM, Delta and Virgin Atlantic)
AF/KLM is really making KLM the budget Airline of the group with this plane swap.
Possibly the introduction of Y+ (economy comfort) could bring KLM back in line with the rest of the partnership members. (8AB Y 787 >32"pitch) But they will remain operating different plane types then the rest of the group. So on for example AMS-ATL you'll see 2x Delta A330NEO & 2x KLM 787-10; guess what passengers will favour.


the 787 would be favored by most. lower cabin pressure and higher humidity overcome any supposed advantage of 2-4-2. Which is only an advantage if you're the 2. sitting interior in the middle 4 is awful
 
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frigatebird
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:40 pm

VSMUT wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
What, phased out early? Disagree. More 787s will, like the A350 for KLM, come at some point - just later. Like the A350, the group has many options for that type too.


PH-BKA, KL's 14th 787, will only be their #5 from the AF/KL order of 25 (and 25 options). The other 9 are leased so even more options for the future remain. For the A350 the group has 25 orders and 35 options. that could cover many of the older 772's.


Air France-KLM combined only has 40 777-200ERs, so it won't just cover many of them, it will cover them all and then some! Points to A350-1000s in the future.


The A350 will replace the 77E at AF. This is a certainty. Replacement of KL's 77E fleet has not been decided, but there is a rumor on a Dutch aviation forum that KL is crunching the numbers with a study to replace their 77E fleet with the 777X :wideeyed:
Which would be quite a jump in capacity indeed, but with AMS nearing the (political) limit of available slots, this could have merit. 77E routes can be upgauged to 77W, 77W routes to 777X.

EddieDude wrote:
CFRPwingALbody wrote:
The KLM fleet and their seating offering makes them outsiders in the TransAtlantic partnership.
(?Alitalia, Air France/KLM, Delta and Virgin Atlantic)...

Possibly the introduction of Y+ (economy comfort) could bring KLM back in line

How are they outsiders? The only major differences I see among those carriers that you mention are (i) AF having F-class on certain aircraft; and (ii) KL being the only carrier without a proper Premium Economy and without plans to install a proper Premium Economy cabin.

KL already has Economy Comfort or "Y+". They offer several rows with better pitch and recline. What they lack is Premium Economy or "W". That I give you, but not all carriers believe there is such a great market for that class. Let us remember TK removing Premium Economy altogether.

Correct. Although there are rumors KL is re-examining Y+ (Economy comfort) and looking at a proper Premium Economy product (W). Personally I think this is a good idea.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
CHRISBA35X
Posts: 122
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:22 pm

AMS18C36C wrote:
Makes sense, as it prevents a subfleet op a mere seven 350-900’. Unless I’m mistaken, the 787-10 and 359 in KLM’sfleet would have a similar configuration and seat count. Can the 787-10 do everything the 359 would have done at KLM?



An A359 would be able to do KUL/DPS/CGK and lift a full payload inc cargo year round to LAX/SCL/LIM. Would also be much more capable on MEX runs than a 78X.

I guess thats what they have the 772/77W and 789 for. I'd like to see KL move all 787 for their long haul work eventually. I fly them quite often, lovely ride and a very nice product.
 
DCA350
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm

Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:29 pm

frigatebird wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:

PH-BKA, KL's 14th 787, will only be their #5 from the AF/KL order of 25 (and 25 options). The other 9 are leased so even more options for the future remain. For the A350 the group has 25 orders and 35 options. that could cover many of the older 772's.


Air France-KLM combined only has 40 777-200ERs, so it won't just cover many of them, it will cover them all and then some! Points to A350-1000s in the future.


The A350 will replace the 77E at AF. This is a certainty. Replacement of KL's 77E fleet has not been decided, but there is a rumor on a Dutch aviation forum that KL is crunching the numbers with a study to replace their 77E fleet with the 777X :wideeyed:
Which would be quite a jump in capacity indeed, but with AMS nearing the (political) limit of available slots, this could have merit. 77E routes can be upgauged to 77W, 77W routes to 777X.

EddieDude wrote:
CFRPwingALbody wrote:
The KLM fleet and their seating offering makes them outsiders in the TransAtlantic partnership.
(?Alitalia, Air France/KLM, Delta and Virgin Atlantic)...

Possibly the introduction of Y+ (economy comfort) could bring KLM back in line

How are they outsiders? The only major differences I see among those carriers that you mention are (i) AF having F-class on certain aircraft; and (ii) KL being the only carrier without a proper Premium Economy and without plans to install a proper Premium Economy cabin.

KL already has Economy Comfort or "Y+". They offer several rows with better pitch and recline. What they lack is Premium Economy or "W". That I give you, but not all carriers believe there is such a great market for that class. Let us remember TK removing Premium Economy altogether.

Correct. Although there are rumors KL is re-examining Y+ (Economy comfort) and looking at a proper Premium Economy product (W). Personally I think this is a good idea.



The 777X is too big for KLM, as they run their fleet economy heavy.. A 777-9 would be pushing 450 seats in their layout. The A350 is the proper replacement but KLM love themselves some GE, so without that being an option on the A350 it's possible we could see the 777X to replace the 777Ws. 777Es would have to be additional 787-9/10s if they don't go A350 as the 777-8 wouldn't make any sense.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:06 pm

DCA350 wrote:
The 777X is too big for KLM, as they run their fleet economy heavy.. A 777-9 would be pushing 450 seats in their layout. The A350 is the proper replacement but KLM love themselves some GE, so without that being an option on the A350 it's possible we could see the 777X to replace the 777Ws. 777Es would have to be additional 787-9/10s if they don't go A350 as the 777-8 wouldn't make any sense.

If KL decides to implement a proper Premium Economy product instead of extra legroom, the difference with their current 77W would just be about 10 seats I reckon, so I don't think the 777-9 would be too big.
For 77E replacement, the 787-9 is too small. The 787-10 isn't but I'm not sure it can replace the 77E on the longest routes. But anyway, I don't think KL is in a hurry to place an order yet. We'll see.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6975
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Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:19 pm

frigatebird wrote:
Replacement of KL's 77E fleet has not been decided, but there is a rumor on a Dutch aviation forum that KL is crunching the numbers with a study to replace their 77E fleet with the 777X :wideeyed:
Which would be quite a jump in capacity indeed, but with AMS nearing the (political) limit of available slots, this could have merit. 77E routes can be upgauged to 77W, 77W routes to 777X.

Interesting. If, as you mentioned below, KL decides to install W seats in its long-haul fleet, the 77E routes could be served by a mix of 787-10s and 77Ws once the 77Es leave, and 77W routes could be taken over by 779s as the 77Ws trickle down to the former 77E routes.

frigatebird wrote:
there are rumors KL is re-examining Y+ (Economy comfort) and looking at a proper Premium Economy product (W). Personally I think this is a good idea.

I think this is a great idea too.

CHRISBA35X wrote:
An A359 would be able to do KUL/DPS/CGK and lift a full payload inc cargo year round to LAX/SCL/LIM. Would also be much more capable on MEX runs than a 78X.

I thought the plan was for KL to use the 789 on the AMS-MEX route once the 747s are fully retired. The -10 might be handicapped taking off from MEX due to the high altitude. Also, the 744 that MEX gets is a Combi, so that means it is less seats that need to be filled, so the 789 is probably more in line with the needs of the market. I would also love to see a KL A359 at MEX, but it looks like it will be a Boeing twin once the 744s go.
Upcoming flights:
May: AM MEX-CUN 73H (Y), AM CUN-MEX 73W (Y).
August: KL MEX-AMS 74M (J), KQ AMS-NBO 788 (J).
 
inkjet7
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:32 am

Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:59 pm

DCA350 wrote:
The A350 is the proper replacement but KLM love themselves some GE, so without that being an option on the A350 it's possible we could see the 777X to replace the 777Ws. 777Es would have to be additional 787-9/10s if they don't go A350 as the 777-8 wouldn't make any sense.


The A350 might be a replacement for the 777-200's on a one-for-one basis but if KLM operates 15 of those, 14 777-300's and 28 787's (-9/-10) a combination of 77X and 787's might have a lot of operational benefits.
 
RainerBoeing777
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:43 pm

Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:30 pm

DCA350 wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Air France-KLM combined only has 40 777-200ERs, so it won't just cover many of them, it will cover them all and then some! Points to A350-1000s in the future.


The A350 will replace the 77E at AF. This is a certainty. Replacement of KL's 77E fleet has not been decided, but there is a rumor on a Dutch aviation forum that KL is crunching the numbers with a study to replace their 77E fleet with the 777X :wideeyed:
Which would be quite a jump in capacity indeed, but with AMS nearing the (political) limit of available slots, this could have merit. 77E routes can be upgauged to 77W, 77W routes to 777X.

EddieDude wrote:
How are they outsiders? The only major differences I see among those carriers that you mention are (i) AF having F-class on certain aircraft; and (ii) KL being the only carrier without a proper Premium Economy and without plans to install a proper Premium Economy cabin.

KL already has Economy Comfort or "Y+". They offer several rows with better pitch and recline. What they lack is Premium Economy or "W". That I give you, but not all carriers believe there is such a great market for that class. Let us remember TK removing Premium Economy altogether.

Correct. Although there are rumors KL is re-examining Y+ (Economy comfort) and looking at a proper Premium Economy product (W). Personally I think this is a good idea.



The 777X is too big for KLM, as they run their fleet economy heavy.. A 777-9 would be pushing 450 seats in their layout. The A350 is the proper replacement but KLM love themselves some GE, so without that being an option on the A350 it's possible we could see the 777X to replace the 777Ws. 777Es would have to be additional 787-9/10s if they don't go A350 as the 777-8 wouldn't make any sense.


KLM has many high demand routes where the B77W exceeds 90% of the load factor, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Delhi, Johannesburg, Cape Town, Lima, Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur, Tokyo, Singapore , Sao Paulo , Toronto, Curacao and Vancouver are destinations that have the ability to withstand the Boeing 777X, and with the problems of slots in Schipol KLM needs larger aircraft
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
CHRISBA35X
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:40 am

Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:26 am

EddieDude wrote:

CHRISBA35X wrote:
An A359 would be able to do KUL/DPS/CGK and lift a full payload inc cargo year round to LAX/SCL/LIM. Would also be much more capable on MEX runs than a 78X.

I thought the plan was for KL to use the 789 on the AMS-MEX route once the 747s are fully retired. The -10 might be handicapped taking off from MEX due to the high altitude. Also, the 744 that MEX gets is a Combi, so that means it is less seats that need to be filled, so the 789 is probably more in line with the needs of the market. I would also love to see a KL A359 at MEX, but it looks like it will be a Boeing twin once the 744s go.


Long time no speak mate - must be what, 13 years? :)

I'd think 789 would make the most sense for MEX, but if thats too small the 77W can do it no problem i think. I can see KL becoming an all Boeing airline - the A330s will go for more 787s, the E190s will be rolled over for Boeing/Embraer E2s - 77W/78X/779/77E/739MAX/738MAX/E2. Pretty compelling. Thats an OCD fleet planner's dream right there.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3012
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:55 am

frigatebird wrote:
Replacement of KL's 77E fleet has not been decided, but there is a rumor on a Dutch aviation forum that KL is crunching the numbers with a study to replace their 77E fleet with the 777X :wideeyed:


Of course they are. If KLMs board is sensible they will be studying all options. But if replacing the 777-200ER fleet with something bigger is in question, the A350 also stands at least as good a chance, and remember, the group already has plenty of orders and options for that type.
 
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frigatebird
Posts: 1673
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:02 pm

Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:16 am

VSMUT wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
Replacement of KL's 77E fleet has not been decided, but there is a rumor on a Dutch aviation forum that KL is crunching the numbers with a study to replace their 77E fleet with the 777X :wideeyed:


Of course they are. If KLMs board is sensible they will be studying all options. But if replacing the 777-200ER fleet with something bigger is in question, the A350 also stands at least as good a chance, and remember, the group already has plenty of orders and options for that type.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing. When KL is ready for 77E replacement, we will be talking about at least 15 aircraft. Even more if the A330s will be included. In fact, I still think if there is one A350 model which would be perfect for KL it is the -1000, as it fills the gap between the 787-10 and 77W quite nicely. And with AF's oldest 77W just half a year younger than KL's oldest 77E, I expect in a few years a tender for replacement of the KL 77E, AF 77W and A380 and the group's A330 fleets. Both Boeing and Airbus will be fighting hard to win this one, probably ending up with a split order like the last one and all the drama will be repeated :silly:
But first the group's new narrowbody order. Probably a decision by the end of this year.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
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MoKa777
Posts: 937
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:47 am

Re: KLM and Air France swaps wide body orders

Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:24 pm

frigatebird wrote:
The A350 will replace the 77E at AF. This is a certainty. Replacement of KL's 77E fleet has not been decided, but there is a rumor on a Dutch aviation forum that KL is crunching the numbers with a study to replace their 77E fleet with the 777X
Which would be quite a jump in capacity indeed, but with AMS nearing the (political) limit of available slots, this could have merit. 77E routes can be upgauged to 77W, 77W routes to 777X.


I also think that the A350 is a replacement for the 77E at AF.

According to planespotters, KLM's 77E are between 12.2 and 15.8 years old. So not requiring immediate replacement, especially with KLM's history of superb maintenance. The 77W is even younger (6.5 years average age).


It would not be a bad idea - considering AMS slot issues - for KLM to replace the 77E with 77W and 77W with 779, as you suggest.
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