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JerseyFlyer
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A350F on the cards soon?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:04 pm

This suggests interest from Qatar and Cargolux in an A350F. We know that the concept was in A350 plans from the beginning - I wonder what combination of numerical orders and purchasers would prompt Airbus to bring these plans forward to launch?

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/en/qatar- ... irbus-a350
 
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PM
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Re: A350F on the cards soon?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:11 pm

Not much to this and an obvious mistake by the journalist (777X freighters). I doubt if we'll see an A350 freighter for many years.
 
mwhcvt
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Re: A350F on the cards soon?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:21 pm

I just don’t see it any time soon and I’d certainly take that article with a large pinch of salt, since they keep talking about and order for a 777XF Now I’m almost certain no such aircraft has even been mooted yet alone marketed so that really calls into to question the author IMO we are at least 5 years away from seeing a 350F being marketed and then only if someone big comes on board a FedEx or UPS sized customer frankly the dedicated freighter ops of most airlines are not enough to spur a new type
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
 
UPS757Pilot
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Re: A350F on the cards soon?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:38 pm

But Airbus desperately wants in the large freighter market as the A330F hasn't exactly been a hot seller. The A350F could generate much more interest.
 
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flee
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Re: A350F on the cards soon?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:41 pm

Airbus needs to reduce the A350's cost of production before they introduce any more new models. They also need to ramp up production to a higher rate as there are currently few near term delivery slots. Perhaps, they can offer freighters in two or three years - after the A380 has ceased production and more A350s can then be built using the A380 factory.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: A350F on the cards soon?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:10 pm

UPS757Pilot wrote:
But Airbus desperately wants in the large freighter market as the A330F hasn't exactly been a hot seller. The A350F could generate much more interest.

The issue with the A330F is lack of TATL range with maximum payload. What is needed is enough MTOW to activate the center tank. This is a binary function as, going from memory, the first two tons of fuel is unusable (by certification definition) and thus adding anything less than 5 or 6 tons of fuel just isn't worth the cost.

So a slightly higher MTOW A338 has potential.
The A333 didn't activate the center tank until the MTOW was high enough for about 8 tons and that only increased range from 5700nm to 6200nm (at low 30T of payload).

I see an A338F as a great opportunity. Just crank up that MTOW. TATL non-stop, in winter, with Max payload, is the minimum to sell this expensive of a freighter in bulk.

Lightsaber
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ikolkyo
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Re: A350F on the cards soon?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:56 pm

Considering they were just talking about how production costs are way too high currently, don’t expect anything soon.
 
ScottB
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Re: A350F on the cards soon?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:18 pm

flee wrote:
Airbus needs to reduce the A350's cost of production before they introduce any more new models. They also need to ramp up production to a higher rate as there are currently few near term delivery slots. Perhaps, they can offer freighters in two or three years - after the A380 has ceased production and more A350s can then be built using the A380 factory.


It really only makes sense for Airbus to address the freighter market with an A350F if they think that they can achieve greater economies of scale in A350 production by adding freighters to the mix or achieve enough of a price premium on A350F orders to pay for the cost of the freighter model certification. If the backlog for passenger models is healthy and they are constrained on raising output, they should probably continue to focus on the passenger space until later in the A350 program lifecycle.

lightsaber wrote:
I see an A338F as a great opportunity. Just crank up that MTOW. TATL non-stop, in winter, with Max payload, is the minimum to sell this expensive of a freighter in bulk.


I agree. Their production costs are low and freight carriers don't need the range of the A350. The A330neo is cheaper to build but offers most of the efficiency gains of the A350.
 
tomcat
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Re: A350F on the cards soon?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:42 pm

lightsaber wrote:
UPS757Pilot wrote:
But Airbus desperately wants in the large freighter market as the A330F hasn't exactly been a hot seller. The A350F could generate much more interest.

The issue with the A330F is lack of TATL range with maximum payload. What is needed is enough MTOW to activate the center tank. This is a binary function as, going from memory, the first two tons of fuel is unusable (by certification definition) and thus adding anything less than 5 or 6 tons of fuel just isn't worth the cost.

So a slightly higher MTOW A338 has potential.
The A333 didn't activate the center tank until the MTOW was high enough for about 8 tons and that only increased range from 5700nm to 6200nm (at low 30T of payload).

I see an A338F as a great opportunity. Just crank up that MTOW. TATL non-stop, in winter, with Max payload, is the minimum to sell this expensive of a freighter in bulk.

Lightsaber


Indeed, the A332F is only available with a 233t MTOW and is subject to dynamic payload consideration: at 233t MTOW, it is only good for 65t payload, while taking off at the reduced 227t weight allows the full 70t payload. An A338F with a 251t MTOW would surely offer much more range. As a point of reference, the WV820-822 (the ones allowing a 251t MTOW) all show a 186t MLW, while the A332F has a 182-187t MLW. So an A332/8F with a 251t MTOW might maintain a 65+t payload.

About a possible A359XLRF (I mean a freighter using the A359 fuselage length and the A351 wing and landing gear and reinforced where required to maximize the payload; with 316t MTOW and a 140t OEW) could per might rough estimates haul 102t (same as the current 772F) over 5000nm, while burning 28% less fuel (67.5t vs 93.5t). What will be intersting to know is whether or not a potential 778F could still boast a 102t payload. If it would have a greater empty weight than the 772F, it would need to have a greater MLW than the latter in order to maintain a 102t payload. I'm not sure that the MLW can be easily increased. To be fair, it remains to be seen if "my" A359LRF could allow a 102t payload. It would require a MLW of about 260t, this might be out of reach without significant changes to the A351 landing gear and related structure.
 
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Rifitto
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Re: A350F on the cards soon?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:00 pm

The low demand for purpose-built freighter doesn't justify the launch of the A350F
,unless it will bring a special capability that the B748F ,B77F ,B763F don't do, (i doubt it will do)
the A350 is already expensive to build ,add the cost of development and certification ,
airbus gonna end up with a very expensive product ,
who is going to order it and skip cheaper P2F converted ones and the well estabilished and reliable B767F and B77F ?
 
trex8
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Re: A350F on the cards soon?

Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:02 pm

Could you even put 10 ft high pallets in an A350? Even on the 777F they are sculpted. Seems the A350 main cabin is more MD11/DC10 sized.

If they do launch it, I could see CI getting some if they dont pick up more than the 3+3 777Fs they just committed to as replacements for their 18 744Fs.

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