spannacomo
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EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:33 am

https://www.ft.com/content/82a82f8c-99c1-11e9-9573-ee5cbb98ed36?shareType=nongift#comments-anchor

The European Commission has written to the US state department warning that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement.

This story is becoming serious, will the US3 stop whining or will they continue and risk losing their rights to fly to the EU?
Last edited by SQ22 on Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
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MillwallSean
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:47 am

Not sure this is bright from anyone's perspective. Air Italy is a no name in Europe and flies how many routes to the US? Should this turn ugly and into a battle it wouldn't end well for anyone.
Its a battle that would weaken not just the EU airlines but the US airlines too while the ones laughing would be the Middle East airlines.

The US 3, not sure why they have such an enormous issue with the Middle East airlines or for that sake previously Norwegian. Markets where the middle east 3 compete are hardly the US 3 most important markets, nor is the markets the Middle East 3 can steal passengers likely to effect many of routes or potential such flown by US airlines.
UA cant even fly to Bombay profitably, despite them having a hub in New 'Patel' Jersey. If the Indian diaspora rejects an airline with an hub in Newark, the reason for the US airlines inability to compete is deeper than just potential subsidies.

EU airlines, they have more to lose here. They face a competitive onslaught that is much more threatening than any market the US airlines have ever come across. Not only does the EU see substantially more international competition, there is also a plethora of incumbents that fly intra EU making it difficult to earn money on intra EU flights. The US 3 on the other hand have an almost oligopoly in the US so they have a domestic profit-centre and poor competition on their home market, the US 3 also lack competition from trains, something most EU carriers face (and really cant compete against). The US also sees fewer international airlines flying into their country, Europe is both a larger economy, sees more tourists and has a population that travels more frequently outside their own territory. Hence, while the US 3 would do ok without EU flights, even a smaller disruption to international flight is likely to affect the EU airlines much harder since international is a key profitcentre for a handful of the major EU airlines, especially KL and BA.
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DLPMMM
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:56 am

This is a non story.

The US Government has not done anything to restrict Air Italy’s USA rights as an EU airline and has given no signal that it intends to.

Trade groups ask for all sorts of things all the time.
 
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enilria
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:06 pm

DLPMMM wrote:
This is a non story.

The US Government has not done anything to restrict Air Italy’s USA rights as an EU airline and has given no signal that it intends to.

Trade groups ask for all sorts of things all the time.

The EU would not have released that sort of proclamation for no reason. You would have them be asleep at the switch. It’s pretty clear there was a private consultation with the USA that so worried the EU that this was released.
 
ual763
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:17 pm

Well, I’d for one like to call the EU’s bluff. Will be interesting to see how this all plays out. As someone else said above, the biggest losers would be the EU airlines, and consequently, the EU itself. So, if they want to shoot themselves, and all the actual EU airlines in the foot, in order to protect Akbar Al Baker’s experiment, so be it. It won’t end well for them.
Last edited by ual763 on Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:22 pm

The endless lobbying by the US3 must be going further up the chain than even we realise given the need for this statement.

If it is within the rules of the agreement, it’s best they stop whining and get on with delivering to improve their product and service to compete. Multi billion dollar profits seem like a hard place to be continuing to somehow play a victim card and cry poor, pointing fingers at competitors.

As Enilria said before, the EU wouldn’t have gone to these lengths to communicate this for nothing.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:46 pm

Negotiated Bilateral’s are my preferred agreements,

cause not all countries or “Unions” have “fair and equitable” as part of their innate value system when it comes to making agreements and then finding ways of subversively working around these agreements at the detriment of other countries business.

The rebranded “Union” is no longer in sync with our Anglo American values in terms of Western Aviation on this subject among others.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
Bricktop
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:51 pm

Can't read because it's behind a paywall, and there's no other source I can see in Google. That being said...

Why are the US3 getting so wound up over Alitalia lite?
Why are the EU carrying AAB's water?

A nice thread for a minor distraction on a Saturday morning, but not much of a needle mover.
 
Dominion301
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:57 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Negotiated Bilateral’s are my preferred agreements,

cause not all countries or “Unions” have “fair and equitable” as part of their innate value system when it comes to making agreements and then finding ways of subversively working around these agreements at the detriment of other countries business.

The rebranded “Union” is no longer in sync with our Anglo American values in terms of Western Aviation on this subject among others.


What “values”? Remember to keep the politics out of it. The EU allows for 49% foreign ownership, which is what QR has in Air Italy. What’s the “values” issue?
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:59 pm

MillwallSean wrote:
UA cant even fly to Bombay profitably, despite them having a hub in New 'Patel' Jersey. If the Indian diaspora rejects an airline with an hub in Newark, the reason for the US airlines inability to compete is deeper than just potential subsidies.


You are correct the the reason they can’t compete is deeper and you chose to ignore it to try and prove a point.

Let’s see what happens when Pakistan opens their airspace and Iran stabilizes enough for the US carries to be allowed to fly over it. Continental and now United have been flying India profitably for a very long time.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:23 pm

Sure would be a shame for Air Italy’s indirect subsidization by Qatar,

to bring even more attention upon the EU’s other open borders darling.

Norwegian
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
FlyHappy
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:27 pm

spannacomo wrote:
https://www.ft.com/content/82a82f8c-99c1-11e9-9573-ee5cbb98ed36?shareType=nongift#comments-anchor

The European Commission has written to the US state department warning that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement.

This story is becoming serious, will the US3 stop whining or will they continue and risk losing their rights to fly to the EU?


look, let us be serious - the US3 "losing their rights to fly to the EU" is somebodys' schoolboy daydream.
unless you can envision a scenario where the LH/AF/BA groups also cannot fly to the US, collapse of the JV's, and the entire TATL air transport business is routed thru Canada, you are over-reaching in terms of consequence.

IF there are any US action against Air Italy (not yet occurred, and unknown) a realistic response from the EU wouldn't be a nuclear option of a complete TATL shutdown, which would literally be destabilizing much of the world, and devastating to the EU3 airline groups.
The retaliation would very likely be far more scaled down and targeted.

But that's not likely to happen either.
Despite all outward appearances, EU-US trade has always managed to "find its own level"; both offer too much value and importance to the other.

People need to understand that careful oversight of the Air Italy's operation is a reasonable and prudent action. The potential for skirting of agreements by an outside-EU-entity is rather high, and could be executed quite easily.
This is wholly different than the 20% ownership in IAG by QR - why? Because IAG has a size, strength, independance, history which makes their operations in the US transparent. IAG/BA hub from, and are based out of places (UK/Spain) where aviation corruption and meddling are significantly less problematic that where Air Italy is based (see Alitalia).

The real question and comparison, sadly, is why do the EU authorities (and to a far less degree, US authorities) , tolerate illegal subsidies constantly fed to Alitalia? I'm sure the answer is because AZ is irrelevant (commercially speaking) , and politically, theres no reason to fuss with a member govt over its irrelevant state jobs program. But that same logic does not, and cannot extend to a non EU govt, with deep pockets, with obvious aspirations.

You folks in the EU should not ignore the possible abuses of foreign control in aviation; it isn't about 10%, 20%, or 49% ; it's about the structure and environment. Your EU cross border hiring, inconsistent labor policies, flags of convenience, all open avenues for clever manipulation.
You should not wait to be damaged before you examine the possibilities.

Put the practices of Ryanair, Norwegian together with easy shell games (equipment, funding) between Air Italy/Qatar , and you have a highly advantaged operation out of an EU member state that is frankly - very rocky in terms of aviation. AAB is a crafty guy - if he wants to abuse things, he's got the tools now.

Maybe this all nothing, and if so, it will blow over, and the folks in the Milan market will be the long term winners. Let it play out.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:45 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Negotiated Bilateral’s are my preferred agreements,

cause not all countries or “Unions” have “fair and equitable” as part of their innate value system when it comes to making agreements and then finding ways of subversively working around these agreements at the detriment of other countries business.

The rebranded “Union” is no longer in sync with our Anglo American values in terms of Western Aviation on this subject among others.


The 1960s called. They want you back - along with fixed exchange rates and capital controls. Bilaterals restrict competition.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:05 pm

Yeah I liked the 60s too when a nations carrier was an introduction to an entire nation or at least a nations region. Unfortunately, “nation-state” supported undermining of free market capitalism seems to be valued by some on here..

The days of East African Airways, Pan Am, and British Caledonian and the multitude upon multitude of beautiful airline liveries and storied histories will long be missed by some of us at least.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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mercure1
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:13 pm

Dear U.S.A.

Air Italy is as Italian as Virgin Atlantic is British or AeroMexico is Mexican.

If it's OK for one, then it's OK for the other.
mercure f-wtcc
 
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scbriml
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:14 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Yeah I liked the 60s too when a nations carrier was an introduction to an entire nation or at least a nations region. Unfortunately, “nation-state” supported undermining of free market capitalism seems to be valued by some on here..

The days of East African Airways, Pan Am, and British Caledonian and the multitude upon multitude of beautiful airline liveries and storied histories will long be missed by some of us at least.


Thanks, but I'll take greater competition and cheaper fares over an inflated sense of nostalgia.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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B747forever
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:23 pm

Why are people so worked up about Air Italy? They only have 2 year round routes to the US, MIA and JFK. Even the supposedly seasonal LAX and SFO have not been loaded for S20, so they might not even come back. Is this whole thing worth fighting about for 2 EU-US routes?

Anyway, flew LAX-MXP about 2 weeks ago, and the flight was completely full. The service in Y was a notch above the US3s Y class, but nothing spectacularly good that would make me want to fly them again unless my destination is MXP. With such a limited network and barely any feed for their long haul flights be it at their own hub or partners at the US end, their strength lies in serving MXP nonstop to the US and not to be a major EU-US carrier. Not sure their long haul experiment will work out.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:45 pm

[*]
B747forever wrote:
Why are people so worked up about Air Italy? They only have 2 year round routes to the US, MIA and JFK. Even the supposedly seasonal LAX and SFO have not been loaded for S20, so they might not even come back. Is this whole thing worth fighting about for 2 EU-US routes?

Anyway, flew LAX-MXP about 2 weeks ago, and the flight was completely full. The service in Y was a notch above the US3s Y class, but nothing spectacularly good that would make me want to fly them again unless my destination is MXP. With such a limited network and barely any feed for their long haul flights be it at their own hub or partners at the US end, their strength lies in serving MXP nonstop to the US and not to be a major EU-US carrier. Not sure their long haul experiment will work out.



Good point... maybe the EU and the groupies should choose their battles better rather than trying to run roughshod over Anglo American business and cultural values rather than threaten the US with retaliation.

Side note ... do we really have more competition now? There used to be dozens upon dozens of low cost charter airlines for holiday makers and independent regionals and “intrastates” for those with “inflated nostalgia.”
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
FlyHappy
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:48 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Dear U.S.A.

Air Italy is as Italian as Virgin Atlantic is British or AeroMexico is Mexican.

If it's OK for one, then it's OK for the other.


Obviously, you are referring to Delta's large investments in those two carriers.

The question isn't about "how Italian" is Air Italy - its about the possibility of outside-EU-state funding/control in order to provide advantage and skirt agreements.
Neither of those can be reasonably argued in the case of Delta. Delta does not move aircraft around between it and these partners (as QR appears to have done) nor obviously is it state-owned and funded. Delta also does not engage in suspect labor cost savings schemes, nor the partners (or minimally so, in line with their home markets).

Its too simple to just to cite an ownership % . If Delta engages in any suspect practices using their partners, they should be looked at, and certainly the Mexican & UK govts will have something to say about that.

I say this with full recognition of the irony of Skyteam member Alitalia's constant basketcase status. By all stated principles of both EU and US, they should have been let go, long ago. However, that very fact is kind of what makes Air Italy a risk. Italy is not like UK/France/Germany, its business and politics is less transparent, more arcane, more susceptible.
 
sxf24
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:53 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Dear U.S.A.

Air Italy is as Italian as Virgin Atlantic is British or AeroMexico is Mexican.

If it's OK for one, then it's OK for the other.


Obviously, you are referring to Delta's large investments in those two carriers.

The question isn't about "how Italian" is Air Italy - its about the possibility of outside-EU-state funding/control in order to provide advantage and skirt agreements.
Neither of those can be reasonably argued in the case of Delta. Delta does not move aircraft around between it and these partners (as QR appears to have done) nor obviously is it state-owned and funded. Delta also does not engage in suspect labor cost savings schemes, nor the partners (or minimally so, in line with their home markets).

Its too simple to just to cite an ownership % . If Delta engages in any suspect practices using their partners, they should be looked at, and certainly the Mexican & UK govts will have something to say about that.

I say this with full recognition of the irony of Skyteam member Alitalia's constant basketcase status. By all stated principles of both EU and US, they should have been let go, long ago. However, that very fact is kind of what makes Air Italy a risk. Italy is not like UK/France/Germany, its business and politics is less transparent, more arcane, more susceptible.


The questions you raise are outside the scope of air service agreements. Any owner is free to subsidize or support a loss making business for other, non-financial purposes. Look at the Italian governments support of Alitalia, or a host of other SkyTeam members outside the EU that benefit from substantial government support.

The US3 are hypocrites.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:29 pm

sxf24 wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Dear U.S.A.

Air Italy is as Italian as Virgin Atlantic is British or AeroMexico is Mexican.

If it's OK for one, then it's OK for the other.


Obviously, you are referring to Delta's large investments in those two carriers.

The question isn't about "how Italian" is Air Italy - its about the possibility of outside-EU-state funding/control in order to provide advantage and skirt agreements.
Neither of those can be reasonably argued in the case of Delta. Delta does not move aircraft around between it and these partners (as QR appears to have done) nor obviously is it state-owned and funded. Delta also does not engage in suspect labor cost savings schemes, nor the partners (or minimally so, in line with their home markets).

Its too simple to just to cite an ownership % . If Delta engages in any suspect practices using their partners, they should be looked at, and certainly the Mexican & UK govts will have something to say about that.

I say this with full recognition of the irony of Skyteam member Alitalia's constant basketcase status. By all stated principles of both EU and US, they should have been let go, long ago. However, that very fact is kind of what makes Air Italy a risk. Italy is not like UK/France/Germany, its business and politics is less transparent, more arcane, more susceptible.


The questions you raise are outside the scope of air service agreements. Any owner is free to subsidize or support a loss making business for other, non-financial purposes. Look at the Italian governments support of Alitalia, or a host of other SkyTeam members outside the EU that benefit from substantial government support.

The US3 are hypocrites.


I'll respectfully disagree with you on your first two statements.
Air Service Agreements don't exist in a vacuum, and there's nothing wrong with private enterprise competitors raising concerns when they feel they could be impacted by an advantaged competitor who is state funded; particularly when that state isn't a part of said Agreement.

I've made my feeling about Alitalia known several times - they are a disservice to the Italian taxpayer and consumer, and the EU at large.

By all means, flesh out the "hypocrite" statement more? No one has stopped Norwegians various services to the US, but the initial protests likely changed their planned staffing practices (which was the core issue). No one has (yet) stopped Air Italy's US services, either - but further examination isn't inappropriate, given the creative transfer of aircraft from Qatar.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:52 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Dear U.S.A.

Air Italy is as Italian as Virgin Atlantic is British or AeroMexico is Mexican.

If it's OK for one, then it's OK for the other.


Obviously, you are referring to Delta's large investments in those two carriers.

The question isn't about "how Italian" is Air Italy - its about the possibility of outside-EU-state funding/control in order to provide advantage and skirt agreements.
Neither of those can be reasonably argued in the case of Delta. Delta does not move aircraft around between it and these partners (as QR appears to have done) nor obviously is it state-owned and funded. Delta also does not engage in suspect labor cost savings schemes, nor the partners (or minimally so, in line with their home markets).

Its too simple to just to cite an ownership % . If Delta engages in any suspect practices using their partners, they should be looked at, and certainly the Mexican & UK govts will have something to say about that.

I say this with full recognition of the irony of Skyteam member Alitalia's constant basketcase status. By all stated principles of both EU and US, they should have been let go, long ago. However, that very fact is kind of what makes Air Italy a risk. Italy is not like UK/France/Germany, its business and politics is less transparent, more arcane, more susceptible.


The analogy is legally incorrect, isn't it? By virtue of their joint ventures, DL/AM and DL/VS are permitted to coordinate with one another in ways that IG and QR are not.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
strfyr51
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:05 pm

MillwallSean wrote:
Not sure this is bright from anyone's perspective. Air Italy is a no name in Europe and flies how many routes to the US? Should this turn ugly and into a battle it wouldn't end well for anyone.
Its a battle that would weaken not just the EU airlines but the US airlines too while the ones laughing would be the Middle East airlines.

The US 3, not sure why they have such an enormous issue with the Middle East airlines or for that sake previously Norwegian. Markets where the middle east 3 compete are hardly the US 3 most important markets, nor is the markets the Middle East 3 can steal passengers likely to effect many of routes or potential such flown by US airlines.
UA cant even fly to Bombay profitably, despite them having a hub in New 'Patel' Jersey. If the Indian diaspora rejects an airline with an hub in Newark, the reason for the US airlines inability to compete is deeper than just potential subsidies.

EU airlines, they have more to lose here. They face a competitive onslaught that is much more threatening than any market the US airlines have ever come across. Not only does the EU see substantially more international competition, there is also a plethora of incumbents that fly intra EU making it difficult to earn money on intra EU flights. The US 3 on the other hand have an almost oligopoly in the US so they have a domestic profit-centre and poor competition on their home market, the US 3 also lack competition from trains, something most EU carriers face (and really cant compete against). The US also sees fewer international airlines flying into their country, Europe is both a larger economy, sees more tourists and has a population that travels more frequently outside their own territory. Hence, while the US 3 would do ok without EU flights, even a smaller disruption to international flight is likely to affect the EU airlines much harder since international is a key profitcentre for a handful of the major EU airlines, especially KL and BA.


Europe is going to DO no such thing! They can bluster all they Want but they themselves still want to fly to the USA. So if they start "tit for tat" on this?
We'll need in the USA to expand NYC, IAD,MIA,BOS,WAS and PHL on the east coast Because that's where the EU will be landing for the forseeable future!
Trump is NOT going for threats and all of you KNOW it!
 
FlyHappy
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:14 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Dear U.S.A.

Air Italy is as Italian as Virgin Atlantic is British or AeroMexico is Mexican.

If it's OK for one, then it's OK for the other.


Obviously, you are referring to Delta's large investments in those two carriers.

The question isn't about "how Italian" is Air Italy - its about the possibility of outside-EU-state funding/control in order to provide advantage and skirt agreements.
Neither of those can be reasonably argued in the case of Delta. Delta does not move aircraft around between it and these partners (as QR appears to have done) nor obviously is it state-owned and funded. Delta also does not engage in suspect labor cost savings schemes, nor the partners (or minimally so, in line with their home markets).

Its too simple to just to cite an ownership % . If Delta engages in any suspect practices using their partners, they should be looked at, and certainly the Mexican & UK govts will have something to say about that.

I say this with full recognition of the irony of Skyteam member Alitalia's constant basketcase status. By all stated principles of both EU and US, they should have been let go, long ago. However, that very fact is kind of what makes Air Italy a risk. Italy is not like UK/France/Germany, its business and politics is less transparent, more arcane, more susceptible.


The analogy is legally incorrect, isn't it? By virtue of their joint ventures, DL/AM and DL/VS are permitted to coordinate with one another in ways that IG and QR are not.


I'm pretty sure our friend was not making any ATI JV analogy, but rather a simplistic "since Delta owns 49% of AM/VA, its okay for Qatar to own 49% for Air Italy" [ergo, US3 are hypocrites, per a.net lore]

Our friend does not address the core issue, which has nothing to do with 49% ownership.

QR is in the OW alliance with AA, they are free to buy as much ownership in foreign carriers as they please, they are free to enter into JV, too... if they choose.
But there does appear to be a little more going on with Air Italy than simple imvestment, and its worth a look; maybe its nothing, but you don't know til you look closely.
 
smartplane
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:16 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
Negotiated Bilateral’s are my preferred agreements,

cause not all countries or “Unions” have “fair and equitable” as part of their innate value system when it comes to making agreements and then finding ways of subversively working around these agreements at the detriment of other countries business.

The rebranded “Union” is no longer in sync with our Anglo American values in terms of Western Aviation on this subject among others.


The 1960s called. They want you back - along with fixed exchange rates and capital controls. Bilaterals restrict competition.

Yes, back to the 60's - increased fares, reduction in flights and airlines (including elimination of LCC's) would achieve CORSIA goals instantly without taxing fuel.
 
chonetsao
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:22 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Dear U.S.A.

Air Italy is as Italian as Virgin Atlantic is British or AeroMexico is Mexican.

If it's OK for one, then it's OK for the other.


Obviously, you are referring to Delta's large investments in those two carriers.

The question isn't about "how Italian" is Air Italy - its about the possibility of outside-EU-state funding/control in order to provide advantage and skirt agreements.
Neither of those can be reasonably argued in the case of Delta. Delta does not move aircraft around between it and these partners (as QR appears to have done) nor obviously is it state-owned and funded. Delta also does not engage in suspect labor cost savings schemes, nor the partners (or minimally so, in line with their home markets).

Its too simple to just to cite an ownership % . If Delta engages in any suspect practices using their partners, they should be looked at, and certainly the Mexican & UK govts will have something to say about that.

I say this with full recognition of the irony of Skyteam member Alitalia's constant basketcase status. By all stated principles of both EU and US, they should have been let go, long ago. However, that very fact is kind of what makes Air Italy a risk. Italy is not like UK/France/Germany, its business and politics is less transparent, more arcane, more susceptible.


The analogy is legally incorrect, isn't it? By virtue of their joint ventures, DL/AM and DL/VS are permitted to coordinate with one another in ways that IG and QR are not.


What concrete prove do you have that IG and QR are nor coordinated in the legal frame of existing regulations? And can you say 100% sure that the VS is acting independently outside of DL control?

IG is a small player. QR did not show any appetite to grow this carrier after the initial stage as QR has big interests in IAG and LATAM, which overlaps IG's long haul ambition.

IG will remain its size for a foreseeable future. It may replace some of the AZ market. I definitely think US3 is overstepping in criticise IG. US3 should really look into AF's state meddling and Chinese aitlones' subsidies. Oh wait, US3 are so hypocritical and they think QR and IG are soft targets. AF and CNx are obviously too much a target.
 
AZa346
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:16 pm

FlyHappy wrote:

The question isn't about "how Italian" is Air Italy - its about the possibility of outside-EU-state funding/control in order to provide advantage and skirt agreements.
Neither of those can be reasonably argued in the case of Delta. Delta does not move aircraft around between it and these partners (as QR appears to have done) nor obviously is it state-owned and funded. .

IG simply QR old a330s, but if this moving around of planes was so obvious, why aren't IG MAXes subbed in by QR a320? They are using Bulgaria Air and TayranJet. This is really damaging their brand in the domestic market... you don't see their livery, but planes from some remote operators...
Also, if the QR influence was so strong, where does the supprt for prides come from?? Check their instagram, they have sponsored the gay prides in Milan, Sofia and Toronto... QR hasn't of course even changed it profile picture to a rainbow version of it... so I feel it is just a mere question of ownership and not complete control( of course there is influence!) .
For what I know you don't even earn IG miles on QR flights(apart from the few codeshares) and vice versa!
 
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OA940
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:38 pm

I love the hypocrisy of the US3. It's hilarious. But I believe even with their stupidity they're only adressing American patriotism and nationalism. They know too well not to turn this into a major political issue, because, unlike what some people think, the US will lose just as much as Europe on this. Of course the respective governments won't allow it to reach that far, because worst-case scenario damages would be in the tens of billions.
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Cubsrule
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:47 pm

chonetsao wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:

Obviously, you are referring to Delta's large investments in those two carriers.

The question isn't about "how Italian" is Air Italy - its about the possibility of outside-EU-state funding/control in order to provide advantage and skirt agreements.
Neither of those can be reasonably argued in the case of Delta. Delta does not move aircraft around between it and these partners (as QR appears to have done) nor obviously is it state-owned and funded. Delta also does not engage in suspect labor cost savings schemes, nor the partners (or minimally so, in line with their home markets).

Its too simple to just to cite an ownership % . If Delta engages in any suspect practices using their partners, they should be looked at, and certainly the Mexican & UK govts will have something to say about that.

I say this with full recognition of the irony of Skyteam member Alitalia's constant basketcase status. By all stated principles of both EU and US, they should have been let go, long ago. However, that very fact is kind of what makes Air Italy a risk. Italy is not like UK/France/Germany, its business and politics is less transparent, more arcane, more susceptible.


The analogy is legally incorrect, isn't it? By virtue of their joint ventures, DL/AM and DL/VS are permitted to coordinate with one another in ways that IG and QR are not.


What concrete prove do you have that IG and QR are nor coordinated in the legal frame of existing regulations? And can you say 100% sure that the VS is acting independently outside of DL control?

IG is a small player. QR did not show any appetite to grow this carrier after the initial stage as QR has big interests in IAG and LATAM, which overlaps IG's long haul ambition.

IG will remain its size for a foreseeable future. It may replace some of the AZ market. I definitely think US3 is overstepping in criticise IG. US3 should really look into AF's state meddling and Chinese aitlones' subsidies. Oh wait, US3 are so hypocritical and they think QR and IG are soft targets. AF and CNx are obviously too much a target.


Given that the EU and Qatar have only had a bilateral for 3 months, I’d say it’s pretty unlikely there’s a joint venture that no one knows about.

And I’m 100 percent sure that VS does not act independently, nor is it required to do so. DL and VS are permitted to and do coordinate schedules and share revenue.
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chonetsao
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:38 am

Cubsrule wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

The analogy is legally incorrect, isn't it? By virtue of their joint ventures, DL/AM and DL/VS are permitted to coordinate with one another in ways that IG and QR are not.


What concrete prove do you have that IG and QR are nor coordinated in the legal frame of existing regulations? And can you say 100% sure that the VS is acting independently outside of DL control?

IG is a small player. QR did not show any appetite to grow this carrier after the initial stage as QR has big interests in IAG and LATAM, which overlaps IG's long haul ambition.

IG will remain its size for a foreseeable future. It may replace some of the AZ market. I definitely think US3 is overstepping in criticise IG. US3 should really look into AF's state meddling and Chinese aitlones' subsidies. Oh wait, US3 are so hypocritical and they think QR and IG are soft targets. AF and CNx are obviously too much a target.


Given that the EU and Qatar have only had a bilateral for 3 months, I’d say it’s pretty unlikely there’s a joint venture that no one knows about.

And I’m 100 percent sure that VS does not act independently, nor is it required to do so. DL and VS are permitted to and do coordinate schedules and share revenue.


So what is the problem for QR to insert influence on IG in the same way of nonEU carrier DL insert boardroom reassure on VS?
 
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zeke
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:57 am

FlyHappy wrote:
The question isn't about "how Italian" is Air Italy - its about the possibility of outside-EU-state funding/control in order to provide advantage and skirt agreements.


What is happening between QR and IG is totally legal. ICAO went away from majority ownership requirements to operate internationally to the location of the airlines principal place of business.

IGs principal place of business is Olbia, QR is free to invest into the airline, provide aircraft, and even be involved in strategic decisions. It does not change the fact the airlines principal place of business is in Olbia.

The reason ICAO moved away from 51% ownership was the rise of large US leasing companies in the 1989s like ILFC and GECAS. These assets were foreign owned, and many airline shares are purchased by international institutional investors. The ownership of many airlines was in question.

So the model went away from 51% ownership to principal place of business to account for the globalisation of share and asset ownership.
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FlyHappy
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:26 am

zeke wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
The question isn't about "how Italian" is Air Italy - its about the possibility of outside-EU-state funding/control in order to provide advantage and skirt agreements.


What is happening between QR and IG is totally legal. ICAO went away from majority ownership requirements to operate internationally to the location of the airlines principal place of business.

IGs principal place of business is Olbia, QR is free to invest into the airline, provide aircraft, and even be involved in strategic decisions. It does not change the fact the airlines principal place of business is in Olbia.

The reason ICAO moved away from 51% ownership was the rise of large US leasing companies in the 1989s like ILFC and GECAS. These assets were foreign owned, and many airline shares are purchased by international institutional investors. The ownership of many airlines was in question.

So the model went away from 51% ownership to principal place of business to account for the globalisation of share and asset ownership.


I am not the one who's been dwelling on the 49% number. That's for the folks who are obsessed with using that to label Delta, in particular, as "hypocritical" for owning significant fractions of VA/AM and others.

I'm aware of the principle place of business idea, our Spanish friends at British Airways have clearly embraced that.

But that also does not make things quite so cut and dry like you suggest.... in fact, I think you are kind of bolstering the US3 complaint, with your logic. If QR has unfettered right to invest/provide aircraft/make strategic decisions, this is very, very much in line with the complaint that Qatar Airways (with unambiguious govt ownership) could skirt agreements and operate from EU to US by proxy.
 
kimimm19
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:12 am

OA940 wrote:
I love the hypocrisy of the US3. It's hilarious. But I believe even with their stupidity they're only adressing American patriotism and nationalism. They know too well not to turn this into a major political issue, because, unlike what some people think, the US will lose just as much as Europe on this. Of course the respective governments won't allow it to reach that far, because worst-case scenario damages would be in the tens of billions.



Finally some sense spoken.
 
YIMBY
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:31 am

FlyHappy wrote:
look, let us be serious - the US3 "losing their rights to fly to the EU" is somebodys' schoolboy daydream.
unless you can envision a scenario where the LH/AF/BA groups also cannot fly to the US, collapse of the JV's, and the entire TATL air transport business is routed thru Canada, you are over-reaching in terms of consequence.


It is not schoolboy daydream but adult nightmare. I can easily envision a scenario where some or most US-Europe flights are stopped by some incompatible ad hoc rules and mutual expansion of retaliations. The reasons are, however, mostly external to this topic so I will not talk about them here.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:31 pm

chonetsao wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
chonetsao wrote:

What concrete prove do you have that IG and QR are nor coordinated in the legal frame of existing regulations? And can you say 100% sure that the VS is acting independently outside of DL control?

IG is a small player. QR did not show any appetite to grow this carrier after the initial stage as QR has big interests in IAG and LATAM, which overlaps IG's long haul ambition.

IG will remain its size for a foreseeable future. It may replace some of the AZ market. I definitely think US3 is overstepping in criticise IG. US3 should really look into AF's state meddling and Chinese aitlones' subsidies. Oh wait, US3 are so hypocritical and they think QR and IG are soft targets. AF and CNx are obviously too much a target.


Given that the EU and Qatar have only had a bilateral for 3 months, I’d say it’s pretty unlikely there’s a joint venture that no one knows about.

And I’m 100 percent sure that VS does not act independently, nor is it required to do so. DL and VS are permitted to and do coordinate schedules and share revenue.


So what is the problem for QR to insert influence on IG in the same way of nonEU carrier DL insert boardroom reassure on VS?


I’m not sure why the legal regime is hard to understand. By virtue of their joint venture, DL and VS have “permission” to coordinate in ways that IG and QR lack “permission” to coordinate. I’m in no way endorsing the regime - that’s a topic for a different thread and there are good arguments on both sides - but it’s the field on which the carriers are playing.
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ewt340
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:50 pm

ual763 wrote:
Well, I’d for one like to call the EU’s bluff. Will be interesting to see how this all plays out. As someone else said above, the biggest losers would be the EU airlines, and consequently, the EU itself. So, if they want to shoot themselves, and all the actual EU airlines in the foot, in order to protect Akbar Al Baker’s experiment, so be it. It won’t end well for them.


I think the World would rally behind ME3 and EU instead of the US since you know. The US is a big market, hence any restrictions on it would be problematic for airlines in Asia, Europe, Middle East and even Latin America.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:23 pm

YIMBY wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
look, let us be serious - the US3 "losing their rights to fly to the EU" is somebodys' schoolboy daydream.
unless you can envision a scenario where the LH/AF/BA groups also cannot fly to the US, collapse of the JV's, and the entire TATL air transport business is routed thru Canada, you are over-reaching in terms of consequence.


It is not schoolboy daydream but adult nightmare. I can easily envision a scenario where some or most US-Europe flights are stopped by some incompatible ad hoc rules and mutual expansion of retaliations. The reasons are, however, mostly external to this topic so I will not talk about them here.


I can appreciate that you are hinting at topics too political for this forum, and that's fair enough.
But the current atmosphere involving the parties involved isn't poisoned in some deeper way than ever before... there's just one player a bit less predictable, is all.

The thing not spoken and oft overlooked is that the big EU airline groups are just as happy as the US3 in maintaining their high profit JV's; just as happy to run competitors off whenever possible. They'd prefer not to have any upstart airlines (such as IG), with lower labor cost base, competeting with them. But they cannot as easily make the kinds of formal complaints as their US3 partners can, because how'd they'd be seen with their home consumer base.

Then there is the odd nature of US-Qatar relations itself. If one were to go by a.net alone, you'd think this is Israel vs Hezbollah or something. Qatar is as "intimate" a US geostrategic partner as is possible in the Mideast, hosting US military command (by invitation, to be clear), being a huge client of US tech, in oil & gas, being an all around reliable trade partner.

All this is to say that there are a huge array of big important parties interested in harmony, between EU - US, US - Qatar, and Qatar -EU.
As big and important as we think global aviation is, its actually just a teeny, tiny bit of the wealth and trade and power that flows between these areas.

Transatlantic aviation IS NOT getting shutdown over a little publicized spat on foreign ownership and operations.
This is what negotiators are for. They will hammer something out, we will pretend to know who "won" or "lost", when in reality we'll really know nothing at all.
 
spannacomo
Topic Author
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:10 pm

My view is that TATL market has dangerously become a cartel up to a point where a minimum new competitor entrance threat - no matter how small it can be - is upsetting the market, at least the US side of it. Nothing else can explain the US3 overreaction and the level of lies used to induce the US government to act. If this is true I think a strong intervention by the EU commission would be necessary to: 1) restore the law and prevent the cartel to take over. Or, if necessary 2) shake the market with a new air transport agreement. In this case measures should be taken to prevent a new cartel to control 90%+ of the market.
 
worldranger
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:38 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Dear U.S.A.

Air Italy is as Italian as Virgin Atlantic is British or AeroMexico is Mexican.

If it's OK for one, then it's OK for the other.


Spot on
 
DLPMMM
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:48 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
look, let us be serious - the US3 "losing their rights to fly to the EU" is somebodys' schoolboy daydream.
unless you can envision a scenario where the LH/AF/BA groups also cannot fly to the US, collapse of the JV's, and the entire TATL air transport business is routed thru Canada, you are over-reaching in terms of consequence.


It is not schoolboy daydream but adult nightmare. I can easily envision a scenario where some or most US-Europe flights are stopped by some incompatible ad hoc rules and mutual expansion of retaliations. The reasons are, however, mostly external to this topic so I will not talk about them here.


I can appreciate that you are hinting at topics too political for this forum, and that's fair enough.
But the current atmosphere involving the parties involved isn't poisoned in some deeper way than ever before... there's just one player a bit less predictable, is all.

The thing not spoken and oft overlooked is that the big EU airline groups are just as happy as the US3 in maintaining their high profit JV's; just as happy to run competitors off whenever possible. They'd prefer not to have any upstart airlines (such as IG), with lower labor cost base, competeting with them. But they cannot as easily make the kinds of formal complaints as their US3 partners can, because how'd they'd be seen with their home consumer base.

Then there is the odd nature of US-Qatar relations itself. If one were to go by a.net alone, you'd think this is Israel vs Hezbollah or something. Qatar is as "intimate" a US geostrategic partner as is possible in the Mideast, hosting US military command (by invitation, to be clear), being a huge client of US tech, in oil & gas, being an all around reliable trade partner.

All this is to say that there are a huge array of big important parties interested in harmony, between EU - US, US - Qatar, and Qatar -EU.
As big and important as we think global aviation is, its actually just a teeny, tiny bit of the wealth and trade and power that flows between these areas.

Transatlantic aviation IS NOT getting shutdown over a little publicized spat on foreign ownership and operations.
This is what negotiators are for. They will hammer something out, we will pretend to know who "won" or "lost", when in reality we'll really know nothing at all.


Thank you for your well reasoned and accurate analysis.

No need for lots of drama over this.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:31 pm

zeke wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
The question isn't about "how Italian" is Air Italy - its about the possibility of outside-EU-state funding/control in order to provide advantage and skirt agreements.


What is happening between QR and IG is totally legal. ICAO went away from majority ownership requirements to operate internationally to the location of the airlines principal place of business.

IGs principal place of business is Olbia, QR is free to invest into the airline, provide aircraft, and even be involved in strategic decisions. It does not change the fact the airlines principal place of business is in Olbia.

The reason ICAO moved away from 51% ownership was the rise of large US leasing companies in the 1989s like ILFC and GECAS. These assets were foreign owned, and many airline shares are purchased by international institutional investors. The ownership of many airlines was in question.

So the model went away from 51% ownership to principal place of business to account for the globalisation of share and asset ownership.


ICAO has nothong to say in air transport agreements between countries or national/supranational laws concerning foreign ownership.

The EU and US both require majority ownership of airlines within their borders by interests holding citizenships within their borders.

At IG things are complicated.
QR is non-EU and the majority ownership is with the Aga Khan foundation, a floating organisation with a supposed head office in Geneva owned and governed by a well respected Islamic Imam.
Lots of people bow in front of the Aga Khan, from the Queen to Sarkozy, he is allowed to represent his foundation at United Nations conferences, etc...
I don't know what the deal is about this person, perhaps us regular mortals are not supposed to know.

However, the US may raise concerns of ownership based on the fact that the Aga Khan Foundation is not being funded by EU interests, but is merely a reinvestment vehicle for funds collected in the Middle East and Asia.
I see a lot of self-made propaganda about what this foundation is doing for less fortunate persons around the world, I don't know if it's true at all that the noble causes are being served given how the foundation's leader is living a jetset lifestyle. It could be one of the most noble organisations in the world or it could be the most global scam network in the world.

I could be wrong but I can imagine that the U.S. is asking this organisation for a money trail for the moneys it invested into IG and that the EU is trying to protect the AK.
Again, I don't know why the EU leaders go to such length to protect the AK, they must know something that we don't.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 451
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:00 pm

With my opinion on the ownership part covered in the above post, I would like to give my two cents again about Air Italy.

Air Italy has potential but QR has to tone down the testosterone and start using his brain.
Milan is not the market that AAB thinks it is, it's way too complicated. The US airlines are doing him a big favor by complaining because his plans won't work.

Air Italy first has to invest in a hub and a European network.
The hub shall be low cost and the European network as lean and mean as possible.
They can take an alternative approach but first things first, they need flights to the major European cities.
Some of that was planned with the inbound MAX fleet but they need to be ready by spring time so that they are fully ready for the summer.

I'm sorry but I don't see this happening.
MXP is too expensive to build a hub at, Linate can't take widebodies or heavy narrowbodies and Bergamo is already full to the gills.

Air Italy's parent company owns Olbia so why not build a hub there?
I've been saying this for a while and it sounds absurd, but they can be much stronger there feeding pax in from all 3 Milan airports and all major Italian cities like Genova, Torino, Venezia, Bologna, etc...
They own the facilities, they own the handling company, they own the maintenance facilities and wages are the lowest in Italy and Western Europe. The region and the Italian government are going to support this.
In fact,a few days ago, the leading party Lega Nord issued a proposal to consider options for a new Sardinian airline:
https://www.sardanews.it/657787-traspor ... erea-sarda

The runway could use a 600 meter extension and more apron space may be needed but Air Italy are sitting on the hub that they're looking for...

The US airlines will have nothing to say about an airline established in Olbia, even though it has the potential to hurt them a lot more.

Forget the O&D, even at Heathrow half the traffic is connecting even though it's one of the biggest O&D markets in the world.
Focus on convenient transfers, siphon traffic smartly from MUC, ZRH, LYS, NCE and all of Italy.
Or what did you think that Air Dolomiti is all about? How can this "Italian" LH subsidiary be based in MUC? They are just Lufthansa in disguise and they are sucking all the long haul traffic fron Northern Italy to their hubs in MUC and FRA.

Make the stop easier, cheaper and more convenient than trying to get to a major airport that will fly pax directly to their long haul destination at high fares.
 
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Aesma
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:19 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
Europe is going to DO no such thing! They can bluster all they Want but they themselves still want to fly to the USA. So if they start "tit for tat" on this?
We'll need in the USA to expand NYC, IAD,MIA,BOS,WAS and PHL on the east coast Because that's where the EU will be landing for the forseeable future!
Trump is NOT going for threats and all of you KNOW it!


The US side is the one being threatening.
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Bricktop
Posts: 1379
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:26 pm

Aesma wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
Europe is going to DO no such thing! They can bluster all they Want but they themselves still want to fly to the USA. So if they start "tit for tat" on this?
We'll need in the USA to expand NYC, IAD,MIA,BOS,WAS and PHL on the east coast Because that's where the EU will be landing for the forseeable future!
Trump is NOT going for threats and all of you KNOW it!


The US side is the one being threatening.

You do something wrong, I tell you to stop it, and you want everyone to think I'm the bad guy because I am threatening you. Welcome to victim culture, 2019 style. :roll:
 
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zeke
Posts: 13990
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Re: EU warns US that any action against Air Italy would constitute a violation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement

Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:19 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:

ICAO has nothong to say in air transport agreements between countries or national/supranational laws concerning foreign ownership.

The EU and US both require majority ownership of airlines within their borders by interests holding citizenships within their borders.


ICAO has everything to do with air service agreements as they are made under the 1944 Chicago convention and the International Air Services Transit Agreement. The ICAO Manual on the Regulation of International Air Transport (Doc 9626) is the reference document.

The Air Service Agreement template is an ICAO document, and the agreements when completed are filed with ICAO. The Chicago agreement does not actually specify O&C, therefore it is up to the individual states to make up their own requirements. But one state cannot project their O&C requirements onto another, eg the US cannot project the 25% foreign ownership cap onto other countries. The US is free to further limit foreign ownership or to relax it, it is their domestic policy to manage.

Changes to the way these agreements, ownership and control etc are discussed at the ICAO Worldwide Air Transport Conference.

The European Union and the European Common Aviation Area, O&C rules have been abolished entirely for airline operations within the European single market, similar was done with an APEC agreement in the early 2000s. The EU approved the DL VS joint venture, VS fly about 70% of their seats to the US, the JV is 50/50. DL owns 49% of VS, so it effectively controlled 50+0.49*50=74.5% of the trans Atlantic JV.

The way IG is run is entirely consistent with the EC decision on principle place of business.

Nevertheless, the intention of these Regulations is that the principal place of business be situated where the organisation technical management is, in other words, in the case of Regulation (EC) No 2042/2003 where the organisation personnel specified in paragraphs M.A.606, 145.A.30 and 147.A.105 directs, controls or co-ordinates its activities, ensuring that the organisation complies with the requirements specified in their respective annexes.

Concerning Regulation 1702/2003 the principal place of business is situated where the personnel specified in 21.A125(b)3 perform their activities under Part 21 Subpart F, and where the organisation personnel specified in paragraph 21A.145(c) directs, controls or coordinates its technical activities, ensuring that the organisation complies with the requirements specified in Part 21 Subpart G.

The organisation technical management defines in particular the safety policy and procedures for the organisation and is responsible for quality assurance. It also has the corporate authority to finance it so that it remains in compliance with the requirements. These elements are the fundaments of the safety of the company. Also enforcement actions may be easier because the key personnel is residing in the same country as the competent authority. Such choice may imply that the competent authority may have to make arrangements with the authority of the Member State where the production line, maintenance facility or training facility is located to ensure an appropriate oversight.


Nothing stopping the US3 from investing into EU airlines like QR has into IG, and DL has into VS.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News

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