lasbagman
Topic Author
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Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:58 pm

Norwegian Airlines will no longer fly to LAS .
Service was from LGW to LAS.
 
Airlines0613
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:04 pm

Source please.
 
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bluefltspecial
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:14 pm

Airlines0613 wrote:
Source please.


He's correct, there was an internal company document posted noting schedule changes this past week. The majority of suspended US-Nordic routes to become seasonal, also discontinuation of LGW/Scandi-LAS

The company said they were looking to move the aircraft to warm weather destination routes for winter, as well as exploring more South America and Asia routes.

I would guess in the next month they will load Winter 19/20 schedules. Look for something to be posted publicly next week if it's not already available on the web.
Save a horse, ride a Fly-boy....
 
Delta28L
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:18 pm

Not surprised by the LGW cancellation. BA and VA all fly from London to Las Vegas and someone had to bow out sooner than later
 
RexBanner
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:21 pm

Virgin Australia do not fly from London to Las Vegas. If you’re meaning Virgin Atlantic the code is VS.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:52 am

Not surprising. And if fuel prices rise post summer, Norwegian could face a very tough struggle to remain in business particularly if the global economy slows further. Long term, I see them being acquired by IAG.
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:13 am

I hear that
CPH-JFK/LAX/FLL
ARN-MCO/JFK
OSL-MCO/LAX
will be come summer only and that they’ll start to fly to the Caribbean/warm seaside destinations for tour companies instead.
 
airzona11
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:39 am

Tough market with, especially with VS/BA non stops and countless 1 stops via the US3. Plus LAS isn’t as low end of a travel destination. It’s a draw for the wealthier / less budget conscious traveler.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:48 am

DUSZRH wrote:
I hear that
CPH-JFK/LAX/FLL
ARN-MCO/JFK
OSL-MCO/LAX
will be come summer only and that they’ll start to fly to the Caribbean/warm seaside destinations for tour companies instead.


Heard the same. All the nordic long hauls to North America will become seasonal only.
 
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Veigar
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:48 am

AW..... How unfortunate!

More and more European airlines starting service to LAS might've been a contributing factor. Hasn't KLM started service recently too?
 
ucdtim17
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:52 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
DUSZRH wrote:
I hear that
CPH-JFK/LAX/FLL
ARN-MCO/JFK
OSL-MCO/LAX
will be come summer only and that they’ll start to fly to the Caribbean/warm seaside destinations for tour companies instead.


Heard the same. All the nordic long hauls to North America will become seasonal only.


And OAK? Everything seasonal? Nothing is for sale for winter.
 
rj1385
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:53 am

I wonder if they will move a 787 to SWF for Dublin service and let Evelop go. Evelop has been flying it for Norwegian since the Max grounding.
 
A380MSN004
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:06 am

rj1385 wrote:
I wonder if they will move a 787 to SWF for Dublin service and let Evelop go. Evelop has been flying it for Norwegian since the Max grounding.


Evelop with their A330s or 350?
 
BA777FO
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:18 am

BA, as well as being daily from LHR, has upped frequency from LGW to 5 and may be going 6 weekly or even daily soon. It's performed very well for BA and must be hurting Norwegian, especially as it used to apparently struggle for performance in high summer temperatures in a way the 777 isn't restricted.
 
jghealey
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:44 am

A380MSN004 wrote:
rj1385 wrote:
I wonder if they will move a 787 to SWF for Dublin service and let Evelop go. Evelop has been flying it for Norwegian since the Max grounding.


Evelop with their A330s or 350?

A330, EC-MII
 
airboss787
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:44 am

A380MSN004 wrote:
rj1385 wrote:
I wonder if they will move a 787 to SWF for Dublin service and let Evelop go. Evelop has been flying it for Norwegian since the Max grounding.


Evelop with their A330s or 350?


The A330-300 EC-MII doing the honors for about the last 10 days now.
Star Alliance Gold
 
f4f3a
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:07 am

Do Norwegian suffer due to the lack of a proper business class ? Would they be more successful if they had a product like jet blue with a proper lie flat bed . With just 36 premium economy seats margins are too tight
 
axiom
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:25 am

f4f3a wrote:
Do Norwegian suffer due to the lack of a proper business class ? Would they be more successful if they had a product like jet blue with a proper lie flat bed . With just 36 premium economy seats margins are too tight


How many times are you going to ask this question this week?

Returning to the OP, I wonder what other destinations are at risk this winter. Seems they’ve done some LGW seasonal trimming too.

I’d say a station like TPA would be vulnerable (loads are great, but yields can’t be at the fares I’ve seen). But it’s a stronger winter destination, and they’ve added a third weekly frequency, so I guess it’s at the very least “less bad”.
 
a350lover
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:47 am

Any news for the BCN-FLL / BCN-OAK services? Are they also moving to summer seasonal?
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:59 am

rj1385 wrote:
I wonder if they will move a 787 to SWF for Dublin service and let Evelop go. Evelop has been flying it for Norwegian since the Max grounding.


Doubtful. They will struggle to fill a 787 at SWF.
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:05 pm

There seems to be a lot of tough decisions being taken at Norwegian, which are wise but one wonders how they let things go that far in the first place.

Such a drastic network change does indicate the challenges they are facing getting the model to work, but the biggest issue they have is what can they do with the planes now.

Using some for tour operators will fill part of a void, but overall, it’s still a fair amount of capacity they will have to allocate somewhere that is considered more viable.
 
jmmadrid
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:26 pm

IndianicWorld wrote:

Such a drastic network change does indicate the challenges they are facing getting the model to work, but the biggest issue they have is what can they do with the planes now.

It seems that they have 36 Boeing 787s, a mix of -8 and -9.
Let's say that after route cancellations and consolidation they have 6 or 8 planes they do not need in the short term.
Shouldn't be too difficult to find someone interested in those relatively new planes.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:51 pm

f4f3a wrote:
Do Norwegian suffer due to the lack of a proper business class ? Would they be more successful if they had a product like jet blue with a proper lie flat bed . With just 36 premium economy seats margins are too tight


No, they don't suffer from that.

Their primary product is economy class, that's where the majority of their passengers fly. However with the number of competitors around they struggle to fill that economy class, load factors aren't what they're supposed to be. That's their main problem.

Operating a business class product costs a whole lot of money and that money needs to be earned back. That's the reason business class is so expensive, too expensive for Norwegian. For less costs they can haul more premium economy passengers.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:53 pm

jmmadrid wrote:
IndianicWorld wrote:

Such a drastic network change does indicate the challenges they are facing getting the model to work, but the biggest issue they have is what can they do with the planes now.

It seems that they have 36 Boeing 787s, a mix of -8 and -9.
Let's say that after route cancellations and consolidation they have 6 or 8 planes they do not need in the short term.
Shouldn't be too difficult to find someone interested in those relatively new planes.


Or they can use those 787s on short haul bulk routes within Europe. That way they free up 737s for thinner routes.
 
dcajet
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:48 pm

These are the changes for the upcoming winter season:

Discontinued routes:

LGW - LAS


Summer only routes:

· CPH-FLL
· CPH-JFK
· CPH-LAX
· ARN-JFK
· ARN-MCO
· OSL-LAX
· OSL-MCO

It appears then that OAK routes will continue to be year round.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
planesarecool
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:40 pm

By all accounts the RR engine issues will continue into the new year, so the catalyst behind seasonal cuts is most likely to avoid further wet leases. The majority of Norwegian's TATL passengers are American and leisure traffic from the US to Europe is significantly lower in the Winter. The only surprise for me is the Scandi-Florida routes, given that Scandinavians tend to escape their harsh Winter for warmer climbs.

BA777FO wrote:
BA, as well as being daily from LHR, has upped frequency from LGW to 5 and may be going 6 weekly or even daily soon. It's performed very well for BA and must be hurting Norwegian, especially as it used to apparently struggle for performance in high summer temperatures in a way the 777 isn't restricted.


Are you capable of posting without including some sort of propaganda for your employers? Is it any wonder you're being offered such measly pay increases to the extent that you're on the verge of strike action, when your bosses can see that their front line staff are happy to publicly fly the BA flag at every opportunity?

BA are selling return tickets to LAX for £305 - 13 years ago I paid £680 for the same ticket. There's only one airline that's hurting the other here.
 
RexBanner
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:21 pm

Hurting BA to the extent of a £2 Billion profit whilst Norwegian are retrenching to almost being out of business? Wow BA have such a bloody nose from Norwegian, don’t they? :lol: BA are my employer too and I hate the management here but they certainly know what they’re doing, unlike the shambles over at Norwegian.
 
JAmie2k9
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:35 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
rj1385 wrote:
I wonder if they will move a 787 to SWF for Dublin service and let Evelop go. Evelop has been flying it for Norwegian since the Max grounding.


Doubtful. They will struggle to fill a 787 at SWF.


Well they were flying x2 daily B738M at DUB. In winter it was planned for x11 weekly so not exactly hard to fill....
 
NUPlaneFan
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:11 pm

What about ORD to LGW. It’s not on sale after October
 
planesarecool
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:46 pm

RexBanner wrote:
Hurting BA to the extent of a £2 Billion profit whilst Norwegian are retrenching to almost being out of business? Wow BA have such a bloody nose from Norwegian, don’t they? :lol: BA are my employer too and I hate the management here but they certainly know what they’re doing, unlike the shambles over at Norwegian.


We have another one. How much of that “£2billion profit” is thanks to the diabolical contracts offered to their newest staff, measly pay rises and continued erosion of employee T&Cs, not to mention the deteriorating passenger experience? I’d take a Norwegian 787 over those horrific RR 777s on a route such as EZE or LAS any day, whose interiors are so old the seat coverings still have one of the World Tails on them.

And I’d hardly call a couple of seasonal cancellations “retrenching”. Norwegian are now bigger than BA in their flagship market. New York sees more BA 777s than 747s these days, with fares almost 50% cheaper than before Norwegian entered. IAG group profits aside, Norwegian have decimated yields on some of BAs biggest markets - if it wasn’t hurting them they wouldn’t care so much.
 
tphuang
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:49 pm

planesarecool wrote:
RexBanner wrote:
Hurting BA to the extent of a £2 Billion profit whilst Norwegian are retrenching to almost being out of business? Wow BA have such a bloody nose from Norwegian, don’t they? :lol: BA are my employer too and I hate the management here but they certainly know what they’re doing, unlike the shambles over at Norwegian.


We have another one. How much of that “£2billion profit” is thanks to the diabolical contracts offered to their newest staff, measly pay rises and continued erosion of employee T&Cs, not to mention the deteriorating passenger experience? I’d take a Norwegian 787 over those horrific RR 777s on a route such as EZE or LAS any day, whose interiors are so old the seat coverings still have one of the World Tails on them.

And I’d hardly call a couple of seasonal cancellations “retrenching”. Norwegian are now bigger than BA in their flagship market. New York sees more BA 777s than 747s these days, with fares almost 50% cheaper than before Norwegian entered. IAG group profits aside, Norwegian have decimated yields on some of BAs biggest markets - if it wasn’t hurting them they wouldn’t care so much.


Norwegian air is on death watch. Come to grips with reality.
 
BA777FO
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:15 pm

planesarecool wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
BA, as well as being daily from LHR, has upped frequency from LGW to 5 and may be going 6 weekly or even daily soon. It's performed very well for BA and must be hurting Norwegian, especially as it used to apparently struggle for performance in high summer temperatures in a way the 777 isn't restricted.


Are you capable of posting without including some sort of propaganda for your employers? Is it any wonder you're being offered such measly pay increases to the extent that you're on the verge of strike action, when your bosses can see that their front line staff are happy to publicly fly the BA flag at every opportunity?

BA are selling return tickets to LAX for £305 - 13 years ago I paid £680 for the same ticket. There's only one airline that's hurting the other here.


Wow, really need to make it personal?

I pointed out that BA has expanded considerably to LAS recently, loads have been good and it seems to have squeezed Norwegian out, just as it has in several other markets such as ORD, DEN and AUS. As for those low fares, BA is still making record profits. So I don't think it is hurting BA.

Not going to comment on the pay issue, this isn't the forum for that. It is however a rather poor attempt on your part of playing the man rather than the ball.
 
RexBanner
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:19 pm

planesarecool wrote:
Norwegian are now bigger than BA in their flagship market. New York sees more BA 777s than 747s these days.


In what way are they “bigger”? They have more flights there than BA? Well there’s no trophy for that and that’s not exactly hard seeing as BA serves one destination (London) and Norwegian serves multiple destinations around Europe. It’s not even comparable, it’s like me boasting about having the biggest penis at a dwarf convention, it’s not remotely competing in the same sphere. In fact it’s remarkable that its even a close run thing considering BA only serves London. The fact of the matter is that BA is actually operating at a profit (a bloody handsome one at that) doing what it does at JFK whilst Norwegian is losing money on every flight, effectively paying to transport a load of low yielding tourists on their holidays.

And JFK for BA has always been about frequency rather than volume so talking about 777s vs the 747 is straw man. It’s why we don’t use the A380 there.
 
BA777FO
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:37 pm

planesarecool wrote:
We have another one. How much of that “£2billion profit” is thanks to the diabolical contracts offered to their newest staff, measly pay rises and continued erosion of employee T&Cs, not to mention the deteriorating passenger experience?


Alright, I'll bite.

In reality, contracts for new joiners are at market rate. New entrant cabin crew can expect similar salaries to new entrant crew at Norwegian, Virgin or easyJet. The same is true of customer service agents, who arguably have better T&Cs than those enjoyed at the likes of Swissport, and back office staff in Waterside enjoy some very good perks that would be unavailable outside of BA. For pilots, since the paycut in 2009, T&Cs have fallen behind other legacy airlines but numbers in the master seniority list have risen from just over 3,000 to almost 5,000 ten years later. Few other legacy airlines can point to that level of growth.

planesarecool wrote:
I’d take a Norwegian 787 over those horrific RR 777s on a route such as EZE or LAS any day, whose interiors are so old the seat coverings still have one of the World Tails on them.


Then you'll be pleased to know that series of aircraft (G-YMMA - G-YMMU) are currently undergoing a complete cabin refresh and G-YMMC recently reentered service registering improved customer satisfaction scores.

planesarecool wrote:
And I’d hardly call a couple of seasonal cancellations “retrenching”. Norwegian are now bigger than BA in their flagship market. New York sees more BA 777s than 747s these days, with fares almost 50% cheaper than before Norwegian entered. IAG group profits aside, Norwegian have decimated yields on some of BAs biggest markets - if it wasn’t hurting them they wouldn’t care so much.


A couple of seasonal cancellations? They're losing hundreds of millions of dollars and can't seem to get a logical, coherent strategy together. You've compared an airline that operates to NYC from one city to another that does it from multiple cities. A more apt comparison would be the metal neutral JBA between BA, Iberia, American and Finnair across the Atlantic. Combine the multiple cities of the JBA and its considerably bigger than Norwegian.

As for decimating yields, where's your proof? BA increased capacity by 20% from LGW last year and yields still rose. In fact, BA increased its revenue per passenger kilometre last year too. BA has responded in a rational manner to a competitor and so far it is succeeding.

Making it personal won't change the facts.
 
planesarecool
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:23 pm

BA777FO wrote:

I pointed out that BA has expanded considerably to LAS recently,


Have they? Did you forget about the three 747 frequencies out of LHR that were dropped in favour of expansion ex-LGW? BA are actually offering 210 fewer weekly seats to LAS this Summer, including 42 fewer First and 12 fewer CW seats per week in each direction. I'd say that's a considerable retrenching.

Given that Virgin have also reduced the number of seats to LAS by almost 1400 per week (and to use one of your favourite phrases, have moved to Heathrow "in search of better yields"), would it not be safe to assume that yields to the city have plateaued? And that's the point, not everything Norwegian does is because BA have "squeezed them out". Las Vegas was always seasonal, as was Austin. Leisure traffic across the pond is significantly down in the Winter (I assume you've been to SEA and ORD in the Winter...) - United are seasonal to Denver, Delta are seasonal to Portland and Salt Lake. This isn't because BA have "squeezed them out", it's because fewer people travel across the pond in the Winter. The same reason BA halve capacity to Orlando, reduce frequencies to IAH, BOS, cut YYC and CHS and, quite significantly, are retrenching on LGW-JFK throughout January and February.

As I've also mentioned, the RR issues (which BA is also still suffering with) are going to continue into the new year. They've got wet leases (as do BA) to cover the Summer program to avoid having to cancel flights that were already on sale for a long time. Trimming the Winter schedule avoids the need to bring in expensive wet lease aircraft with questionable reliability.

They have more flights there than BA? Well there’s no trophy for that and that’s not exactly hard seeing as BA serves one destination (London) and Norwegian serves multiple destinations around Europe. It’s not even comparable, it’s like me boasting about having the biggest penis at a dwarf convention, it’s not remotely competing in the same sphere. In fact it’s remarkable that its even a close run thing considering BA only serves London.


You've compared an airline that operates to NYC from one city to another that does it from multiple cities.


So BA have no long haul passengers originating in AMS, OSL, ARN, CPH, DUB, MAD, FCO, ATH or CDG? Fact is, Norwegian take over 3000 people from Europe to New York each day that might have otherwise used BA. That hurts.

As for the rest, well that's just proving my point. Your company making "healthy profits" whilst your T&Cs, salaries and rosters fall significantly behind isn't something for you to be proud of. Continued pro-BA propaganda in a thread about a competitor, whilst your fellow professionals from both inside and outside the company fight to protect and improve their terms is disrespectful to your colleagues and a little bit embarrassing.
 
SQ317
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:50 pm

BA777FO wrote:
planesarecool wrote:
We have another one. How much of that “£2billion profit” is thanks to the diabolical contracts offered to their newest staff, measly pay rises and continued erosion of employee T&Cs, not to mention the deteriorating passenger experience?


Alright, I'll bite.

In reality, contracts for new joiners are at market rate. New entrant cabin crew can expect similar salaries to new entrant crew at Norwegian, Virgin or easyJet. The same is true of customer service agents, who arguably have better T&Cs than those enjoyed at the likes of Swissport, and back office staff in Waterside enjoy some very good perks that would be unavailable outside of BA. For pilots, since the paycut in 2009, T&Cs have fallen behind other legacy airlines but numbers in the master seniority list have risen from just over 3,000 to almost 5,000 ten years later. Few other legacy airlines can point to that level of growth.

planesarecool wrote:
I’d take a Norwegian 787 over those horrific RR 777s on a route such as EZE or LAS any day, whose interiors are so old the seat coverings still have one of the World Tails on them.


Then you'll be pleased to know that series of aircraft (G-YMMA - G-YMMU) are currently undergoing a complete cabin refresh and G-YMMC recently reentered service registering improved customer satisfaction scores.

planesarecool wrote:
And I’d hardly call a couple of seasonal cancellations “retrenching”. Norwegian are now bigger than BA in their flagship market. New York sees more BA 777s than 747s these days, with fares almost 50% cheaper than before Norwegian entered. IAG group profits aside, Norwegian have decimated yields on some of BAs biggest markets - if it wasn’t hurting them they wouldn’t care so much.


A couple of seasonal cancellations? They're losing hundreds of millions of dollars and can't seem to get a logical, coherent strategy together. You've compared an airline that operates to NYC from one city to another that does it from multiple cities. A more apt comparison would be the metal neutral JBA between BA, Iberia, American and Finnair across the Atlantic. Combine the multiple cities of the JBA and its considerably bigger than Norwegian.

As for decimating yields, where's your proof? BA increased capacity by 20% from LGW last year and yields still rose. In fact, BA increased its revenue per passenger kilometre last year too. BA has responded in a rational manner to a competitor and so far it is succeeding.

Making it personal won't change the facts.


You beat me to it on the refits, I flew G-YMMC to LAS in early June and the cabin was absolutely fantastic, I have to say, as was the service and overall soft product.
 
mcdu
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:50 pm

planesarecool wrote:
RexBanner wrote:
Hurting BA to the extent of a £2 Billion profit whilst Norwegian are retrenching to almost being out of business? Wow BA have such a bloody nose from Norwegian, don’t they? :lol: BA are my employer too and I hate the management here but they certainly know what they’re doing, unlike the shambles over at Norwegian.


We have another one. How much of that “£2billion profit” is thanks to the diabolical contracts offered to their newest staff, measly pay rises and continued erosion of employee T&Cs, not to mention the deteriorating passenger experience? I’d take a Norwegian 787 over those horrific RR 777s on a route such as EZE or LAS any day, whose interiors are so old the seat coverings still have one of the World Tails on them.

And I’d hardly call a couple of seasonal cancellations “retrenching”. Norwegian are now bigger than BA in their flagship market. New York sees more BA 777s than 747s these days, with fares almost 50% cheaper than before Norwegian entered. IAG group profits aside, Norwegian have decimated yields on some of BAs biggest markets - if it wasn’t hurting them they wouldn’t care so much.


Maybe the new staff has to get paid what the low ball operators are paying. If airlines like Norwegian didn’t exist the need to have similar work force contracts wouldn’t exist. As it is now, Norwegian sets the low bottom and that is where companies negotiate from. The sooner the money losing Norwegian operation ceases the exist the better for everyone
 
RexBanner
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:17 pm

planesarecool wrote:

You've compared an airline that operates to NYC from one city to another that does it from multiple cities.


So BA have no long haul passengers originating in AMS, OSL, ARN, CPH, DUB, MAD, FCO, ATH or CDG? Fact is, Norwegian take over 3000 people from Europe to New York each day that might have otherwise used BA. That hurts.


So you’re assuming these 3000 people all would have ignored direct options with KLM, SAS, Aer Lingus, Iberia, Alitalia, Air France (not to mention the US3 options) to connect to New York via Heathrow with British Airways? You’re claiming that the effect of those passengers’ revenue is not spread through all the various airlines operating to New York but solely British Airways? That’s absolutely ridiculous. The actual impact on BA, given that their business model is far more premium oriented, is absolutely negligible.

You’re witnessing the death throes of Norwegian, it all looks eerily similar to the last couple of years of Monarch.
 
planesarecool
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Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:39 pm

RexBanner wrote:
planesarecool wrote:

You've compared an airline that operates to NYC from one city to another that does it from multiple cities.


So BA have no long haul passengers originating in AMS, OSL, ARN, CPH, DUB, MAD, FCO, ATH or CDG? Fact is, Norwegian take over 3000 people from Europe to New York each day that might have otherwise used BA. That hurts.


So you’re assuming these 3000 people all would have ignored direct options with KLM, SAS, Aer Lingus, Iberia, Alitalia, Air France (not to mention the US3 options) to connect to New York via Heathrow with British Airways? You’re claiming that the effect of those passengers’ revenue is not spread through all the various airlines operating to New York but solely British Airways? That’s absolutely ridiculous. The actual impact on BA, given that their business model is far more premium oriented, is absolutely negligible.

You’re witnessing the death throes of Norwegian, it all looks eerily similar to the last couple of years of Monarch.


Did I say all 3000 would use BA? Or did I say “might have otherwise used BA”? If the impact was negligible, why did BA start an aggressive campaign against them, followed by a failed takeover attempt? Why are BA fares to destinations they compete with Norwegian on half the price that they were 10-15 years ago?

You’re welcome to your opinion on “the death throes of Norwegian”. I’m not quite sure what you hope to achieve though. Do you think the loss of 2800 Boeing rated pilot jobs is going to help your plight for better terms and conditions? Do you expect the overnight doubling of fares to JFK and LAX to be paid directly to you? Or will your bosses simply enjoy greater bonuses whilst further alienating the rest of the work force?


mcdu wrote:
planesarecool wrote:
RexBanner wrote:
Hurting BA to the extent of a £2 Billion profit whilst Norwegian are retrenching to almost being out of business? Wow BA have such a bloody nose from Norwegian, don’t they? :lol: BA are my employer too and I hate the management here but they certainly know what they’re doing, unlike the shambles over at Norwegian.


We have another one. How much of that “£2billion profit” is thanks to the diabolical contracts offered to their newest staff, measly pay rises and continued erosion of employee T&Cs, not to mention the deteriorating passenger experience? I’d take a Norwegian 787 over those horrific RR 777s on a route such as EZE or LAS any day, whose interiors are so old the seat coverings still have one of the World Tails on them.

And I’d hardly call a couple of seasonal cancellations “retrenching”. Norwegian are now bigger than BA in their flagship market. New York sees more BA 777s than 747s these days, with fares almost 50% cheaper than before Norwegian entered. IAG group profits aside, Norwegian have decimated yields on some of BAs biggest markets - if it wasn’t hurting them they wouldn’t care so much.


Maybe the new staff has to get paid what the low ball operators are paying. If airlines like Norwegian didn’t exist the need to have similar work force contracts wouldn’t exist. As it is now, Norwegian sets the low bottom and that is where companies negotiate from. The sooner the money losing Norwegian operation ceases the exist the better for everyone


BA cut pilot salaries and introduced the awful MF cabin crew contracts long before Norwegian started transatlantic operations.

And explain how Norwegian ceasing is “better for everyone”. Is it better for transatlantic passengers who will see fares increasing overnight? Is it better for customers in Norway who rely on air travel as a means to get around the country? Is it better for the thousands of employees who have bills to pay?

T&Cs have deteriorated across the industry. This was lead by Ryanair, pay to fly organisations like Air Baltic, greedy flight schools like CTC/OAA and, more recently, Instagram pilots who are more concerned about their selfies and follower counts than their T&Cs.

Norwegian are far from the bottom feeders in this regard.
 
RexBanner
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:37 am

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:56 pm

Failed takeover attempt. I presume you mean IAG running a mile after getting a look at Norwegian’s books. I think it was O’Leary who said “I’m not interested in catching falling knives” when asked about a potential takeover himself.

The Low Cost Long Haul failures are many, just recently we’ve had Lufthansa taking Eurowings off Long Haul routes, Air France closing down Joon completely, Primera and Wow bankrupt and now Norwegian teetering on the brink. It’s tried and tested roadmap to failure. It won’t stop the next bright spark attempting to do it their way with predictable results.

I’m not sure where your hard on for Norwegian comes from but surely even you can see they’re not an example of a healthy business?
 
lazyme
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:57 am

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:59 pm

The only option to fly direct to major cities to USA from Sweden and Norway is currently to fly with SAS, or Norwegian afaik. This may, or may not change with long range models of 320 or 737 in the future.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12403
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:08 am

lazyme wrote:
The only option to fly direct to major cities to USA from Sweden and Norway is currently to fly with SAS, or Norwegian afaik.

UA still flies EWR-ARN
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
planesarecool
Posts: 3249
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS serviceqy

Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:36 am

RexBanner wrote:
It won’t stop the next bright spark attempting to do it their way with predictable results.


You mean like your great Leader? After all, “Level” are the latest low cost long haul airline to the market. So do your management know what they’re doing or not?

The sad thing is that, judging by your posts on another forum, you actually agree with me. Unfortunately you’ve been brainwashed to such an extent by your management, you’re probably made to believe that competing with Norwegian is the reason you’ve had years of poor pay offers and declining terms, and that their demise is the only way things will improve for you. Meanwhile your great leaders take home record bonuses.

There’s no hard-on. I only came here to dispel the belief that every move made by Norwegian is influenced by BA, as implied by your company spokesman on this forum. Everything else is well off topic. Enjoy the picket line, you actually have my support.
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 3196
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:59 am

RexBanner wrote:
Failed takeover attempt. I presume you mean IAG running a mile after getting a look at Norwegian’s books. I think it was O’Leary who said “I’m not interested in catching falling knives” when asked about a potential takeover himself.

The Low Cost Long Haul failures are many, just recently we’ve had Lufthansa taking Eurowings off Long Haul routes, Air France closing down Joon completely, Primera and Wow bankrupt and now Norwegian teetering on the brink. It’s tried and tested roadmap to failure. It won’t stop the next bright spark attempting to do it their way with predictable results.

I’m not sure where your hard on for Norwegian comes from but surely even you can see they’re not an example of a healthy business?


I understand where you are coming from but Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge appear to be 2 examples where it can work, so it’s not always a ‘tried and tested roadmap to failure’.

It’s not an easy business model to get right though, which particularly becomes challenging with rising fuel costs. Even flying around new 787’s doesn’t help that much, as the efficiency gains can still be outweighed by higher acquisition/lease costs and the fuel costs that are still there to pay.
 
GSTBA
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:20 am

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:15 am

Did Norwegian operate LGW-DEN last winter?.
 
B747forever
Posts: 13771
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:30 am

LAX772LR wrote:
lazyme wrote:
The only option to fly direct to major cities to USA from Sweden and Norway is currently to fly with SAS, or Norwegian afaik.

UA still flies EWR-ARN


Which is a seasonal route. So for the upcoming winter season SAS will be the dominant carrier with a few token flights by Norwegian.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
BA777FO
Posts: 325
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:41 am

planesarecool wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

I pointed out that BA has expanded considerably to LAS recently,


Have they? Did you forget about the three 747 frequencies out of LHR that were dropped in favour of expansion ex-LGW? BA are actually offering 210 fewer weekly seats to LAS this Summer, including 42 fewer First and 12 fewer CW seats per week in each direction. I'd say that's a considerable retrenching.


The 3 747 frequencies that have been replaced by 6 777 frequencies? Yes, fewer F seats, but actually more J, W and Y seats. No retrenching, it's a year on year increase.

planesarecool wrote:
Given that Virgin have also reduced the number of seats to LAS by almost 1400 per week (and to use one of your favourite phrases, have moved to Heathrow "in search of better yields"), would it not be safe to assume that yields to the city have plateaued? And that's the point, not everything Norwegian does is because BA have "squeezed them out". Las Vegas was always seasonal, as was Austin. Leisure traffic across the pond is significantly down in the Winter (I assume you've been to SEA and ORD in the Winter...) - United are seasonal to Denver, Delta are seasonal to Portland and Salt Lake. This isn't because BA have "squeezed them out", it's because fewer people travel across the pond in the Winter. The same reason BA halve capacity to Orlando, reduce frequencies to IAH, BOS, cut YYC and CHS and, quite significantly, are retrenching on LGW-JFK throughout January and February.


Yields to LAS may have plateaued for Virgin but BA is doing well, the strength of the JBA is helping. Just as Virgin pulled out of Cancun, BA has doubled capacity there too. It points to BA being a better competitor, especially out of LGW.

As for Norwegian, LAS and others were seasonal, or had marked reductions from one season to another, but pulling out entirely isn't really a seasonal reduction now, is it? It's pulling out entirely.

I have been to ORD and SEA in winter. BA maintains 2x daily frequencies in winter to ORD and goes from 14x week to SEA to 10x week in winter. Rammed every time I've flown them! As every airline shifts capacity (MCO reductions are to fund increases to the Caribbean, San José etc) not every destination sees a reduction. DFW is increasing premium capacity this winter, so is AUS. CHS and YYC again fund the aircraft for DUR, KIX, ISB etc. LGW-JFK stops for a few weeks in January because of the refits of the 777s you derided. So progress being made there. Nothing to do with JFK or New York, a reduction needed to be made as there was an aircraft less to fly. Easier to reaccommodate passengers to JFK than any other long haul route. But when you discontinue service altogether, you've been squeezed out and Norwegian has been squeezed out of LAS.

planesarecool wrote:
So BA have no long haul passengers originating in AMS, OSL, ARN, CPH, DUB, MAD, FCO, ATH or CDG? Fact is, Norwegian take over 3000 people from Europe to New York each day that might have otherwise used BA. That hurts.


BA isn't flying half-empty planes around Europe - load factors are up year on year even on capacity up year on year too. Given that BA has increaded passenger numbers, increased capacity and increased yields, I don't think it does hurt, actually. Norwegian may have healthy load factors on many of its routes, but I would have a lot of demand too selling $20 bills for $15.

planesarecool wrote:
As for the rest, well that's just proving my point. Your company making "healthy profits" whilst your T&Cs, salaries and rosters fall significantly behind isn't something for you to be proud of. Continued pro-BA propaganda in a thread about a competitor, whilst your fellow professionals from both inside and outside the company fight to protect and improve their terms is disrespectful to your colleagues and a little bit embarrassing.


Yep, the company is making healthy profits now. Hence why Balpa is making the pay claim it is. This has only become achievable because the company's finances are in good health. The better the company does the better our claim for higher compensation becomes. This wouldn't be possible if BA's finances were a mess like Norwegian's. You really have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to this pay claim.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 325
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS serviceqy

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:47 am

planesarecool wrote:
RexBanner wrote:
It won’t stop the next bright spark attempting to do it their way with predictable results.


You mean like your great Leader? After all, “Level” are the latest low cost long haul airline to the market. So do your management know what they’re doing or not?

The sad thing is that, judging by your posts on another forum, you actually agree with me. Unfortunately you’ve been brainwashed to such an extent by your management, you’re probably made to believe that competing with Norwegian is the reason you’ve had years of poor pay offers and declining terms, and that their demise is the only way things will improve for you. Meanwhile your great leaders take home record bonuses.


Why do you think pilots are ballotting? Share buybacks and dividends and big bonuses for executives but little for the employees. You'll figure it out soon enough...

planesarecool wrote:
There’s no hard-on. I only came here to dispel the belief that every move made by Norwegian is influenced by BA, as implied by your company spokesman on this forum. Everything else is well off topic. Enjoy the picket line, you actually have my support.


Company spokesman? Haha. Give it a rest. Also might be worth not putting words in people's mouths. No one has said every move Norwegian makes is influenced by BA. If that's been said, show it. It is true that BA's response has hurt Norwegian.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4491
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:32 pm

The Norwegian hypothesis was to go into new markets and build market share, carry the losses until breakthrough was made and they turned a profit.
They have just walked away from some high volume markets admitting defeat and now talking about lower volume more niche new markets to start from scratch and carry THOSE NEW LOSSES for a few more years?

Not sure the capital markets will be queuing to fund this...
 
aviationjunky
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:27 pm

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:02 pm

Wasn't Norwegian complaining about load factors out of LAS from the start? Then they used the excessive heat as an excuse to make their first round of cuts. It's not a surprise. BA and VS have increased frequency to LHR daily, and I noticed VS is offering a random second daily flight on 7/14 with a A346. BA pretty much has the LGW with 6x weekly B77L. There isn't a need for a third carrier to the London market.
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