mcdu
Posts: 1583
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:59 pm

skipness1E wrote:
The Norwegian hypothesis was to go into new markets and build market share, carry the losses until breakthrough was made and they turned a profit.
They have just walked away from some high volume markets admitting defeat and now talking about lower volume more niche new markets to start from scratch and carry THOSE NEW LOSSES for a few more years?

Not sure the capital markets will be queuing to fund this...


At some point the money side will realize what a colossal failure Norwegian has been from the start and the money taps will be switched off. You are exactly right in that they have gerrymandered their business model. This winter should most likely be the end. The fact that BA saw the books and walked away should be a strobe light to everyone that Norwegian is not a sustainable entity.
 
Tenaja85
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:19 pm

GSTBA wrote:
Did Norwegian operate LGW-DEN last winter?.


Yes. When they launched the service in 2017 the service was 2x/weekly, then was upped I believe in November/December to 3x/weekly in an attempt to capture ski traffic. I think they intended to draw service back down to 2x/weekly in the summer but the service has stayed at 3x/weekly.
 
GSTBA
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:20 am

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:25 pm

Tenaja85 wrote:
GSTBA wrote:
Did Norwegian operate LGW-DEN last winter?.


Yes. When they launched the service in 2017 the service was 2x/weekly, then was upped I believe in November/December to 3x/weekly in an attempt to capture ski traffic. I think they intended to draw service back down to 2x/weekly in the summer but the service has stayed at 3x/weekly.

LGW-DEN is now no longer available to book for this coming winter season. Also notice LGW-ORD available this winter. Believe the route operated 4 x Weekly last winter
Last edited by GSTBA on Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4035
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:02 pm

mcdu wrote:
At some point the money side will realize what a colossal failure Norwegian has been from the start and the money taps will be switched off. You are exactly right in that they have gerrymandered their business model. This winter should most likely be the end. The fact that BA saw the books and walked away should be a strobe light to everyone that Norwegian is not a sustainable entity.


I wouldn't say "from the start" as Norwegian is a lot older than many people think. Started as a small regional airline in Norway flying for SAS, that was reasonably profitable although not what they really wanted. Then they broke off from SAS and started flying for themselves as an LCC, first mainly in Scandinavia but slowly expanding into the rest of Europe. Those were good times for Norwegian. But then they started long haul and things went downhill. At first they didn't notice this as their long haul operations were still small so they were able to congest the demand. As their long haul operations grew bigger, so did their losses. They were offering a surplus of long haul low-cost capacity which resulted in low load factors, basically they were competing against themselves. A good number of strategic failures nullified their success.

Now it seems they're finally shrinking their long haul operations, it was long overdue. It took them a lot of time to realize their mistakes. Long haul low-cost can be profitable as long as a number of conditions are met. In the beginning when Norwegian first started long haul, they mostly met those conditions. Later on as they grew larger, they didn't anymore and we all know where that took them.

However keep in mind that all along this time, their short haul operations within Europe have been profitable. I'd rather have seen they would have kept their long haul operations small and grew more on short haul, but they can still do that. They don't have to use those 787s on long haul, they can use them for short haul as well. There is still hope for Norwegian...
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3107
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:11 pm

jghealey wrote:
A380MSN004 wrote:
rj1385 wrote:
I wonder if they will move a 787 to SWF for Dublin service and let Evelop go. Evelop has been flying it for Norwegian since the Max grounding.


Evelop with their A330s or 350?

A330, EC-MII


And EC-NBP on DI7013/4.
 
planesarecool
Posts: 3256
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:23 am

BA777FO wrote:
planesarecool wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

I pointed out that BA has expanded considerably to LAS recently,


Have they? Did you forget about the three 747 frequencies out of LHR that were dropped in favour of expansion ex-LGW? BA are actually offering 210 fewer weekly seats to LAS this Summer, including 42 fewer First and 12 fewer CW seats per week in each direction. I'd say that's a considerable retrenching.


The 3 747 frequencies that have been replaced by 6 777 frequencies? Yes, fewer F seats, but actually more J, W and Y seats. No retrenching, it's a year on year increase.


The three 747 frequencies that have been replaced by three 777 frequencies - LGW was already 3x weekly last Summer. Hence a reduction in seats as detailed in one of my previous posts.

The rest of your post, like most of your previous contributions on this forum, is riddled with falsities, pro-BA marketing propaganda and inaccuracies. For the sake of your colleagues, and yourself should anybody within your company know your identity, I highly suggest you give the management-esque PR spiel a rest whilst the industrial dispute is ongoing.

It's not a surprise. BA and VS have increased frequency to LHR daily, and I noticed VS is offering a random second daily flight on 7/14 with a A346. BA pretty much has the LGW with 6x weekly B77L. There isn't a need for a third carrier to the London market.


As mentioned above, seat capacity on LON-LAS has been reduced significantly by both VS and BA. Don't let facts get in your way though.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 472
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:08 am

planesarecool wrote:
The three 747 frequencies that have been replaced by three 777 frequencies - LGW was already 3x weekly last Summer. Hence a reduction in seats as detailed in one of my previous posts.


A reduction of 15 seats overall from 3 mid-J 747s to 3 densified 777-200ERs. It's basically like-for-like and has freef up 3 slot pairs to fly a new route from Heathrow. So no real change.

planesarecool wrote:
The rest of your post, like most of your previous contributions on this forum, is riddled with falsities, pro-BA marketing propaganda and inaccuracies. For the sake of your colleagues, and yourself should anybody within your company know your identity, I highly suggest you give the management-esque PR spiel a rest whilst the industrial dispute is ongoing.


:lol: You actually have no idea what you're talking about; you can't point out any "falsities", the "pro-BA marketing" is correcting your fallacies and actually, talking BA up serves a purpose - it makes it harder for them to deny Balpa's fair, reasonable and affordable pay claim. That said, I won't be drawn on that any more, you brought it up and I won't be carrying on about it.

planesarecool wrote:
As mentioned above, seat capacity on LON-LAS has been reduced significantly by both VS and BA. Don't let facts get in your way though.


15 seats in a market of, for BA, in excess of 3,300 per week. Or less than half of 1%. Yeah, don't let facts get in the way of your exaggerations. I think we can be done with your contribution here. Well done.
 
planesarecool
Posts: 3256
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:05 pm

BA777FO wrote:
planesarecool wrote:
The three 747 frequencies that have been replaced by three 777 frequencies - LGW was already 3x weekly last Summer. Hence a reduction in seats as detailed in one of my previous posts.


A reduction of 15 seats overall from 3 mid-J 747s to 3 densified 777-200ERs. It's basically like-for-like and has freef up 3 slot pairs to fly a new route from Heathrow. So no real change.


BA777FO wrote:
15 seats in a market of, for BA, in excess of 3,300 per week. Or less than half of 1%. Yeah, don't let facts get in the way of your exaggerations. I think we can be done with your contribution here. Well done.


Once again, you're incorrect. The densified 777s only operate two of the six weekly flights, the others are on 275-seat un-refurbished aircraft. Either way, it's not a "year on year increase" as you claim.

You actually have no idea what you're talking about; you can't point out any "falsities", the "pro-BA marketing" is correcting your fallacies and actually, talking BA up serves a purpose - it makes it harder for them to deny Balpa's fair, reasonable and affordable pay claim.


Continuing to say "you have no idea what you're talking about" isn't going to make you look any less embarrassing to your hard-working colleagues. Your falsities are many, you evidently have no idea on the concept of seasonality for a start. Claiming Gatwick-New York is being reduced to cater for the refurbishment (densification) of 777s is incorrect, the refurbishment schedule of the 777s is widely available in the public domain and is not being accelerated in January next year. Claiming YYC and CHS are only seasonal to cater for new routes to KIX, DUR and ISB, whilst all five run along side each other this Summer is, once again, incorrect. You were incorrect about BA's "year on year increase" in LAS squeezing out Norwegian, as there is no "year on year increase" from BA. More or less everything you've said about Norwegian is incorrect, and whilst I'm not going to dig out old threads to find every single one, my favourite of all time had to be your claim that "British Airways have made FLL work in their own right", two weeks before they announced its cancellation along with quoted load factors of 64%. :lol:

Your claim that the refurbishment (densification) of the 777s has lead to "improved customer survey responses" is straight out of the management PR-spin handbook. Do you, a regular line pilot, have access to customer survey responses, or are you regurgitating what was fed to you in a management email? I'm sure customer survey responses for the refurbished 777s are positive, but that's more a reflection on what they replaced rather than the customer's delight for BA reducing seat and aisle width by adding an extra seat per row.

I'll give it to you though, you'd make a good manager. I'm well aware of all sides of your industrial dispute, and as I've said before, you actually have my support. British Airways have always been seen as the benchmark for pay and T&Cs in this country, and the further you fall behind, the more likely the stagnation and/or degradation of the pay/T&Cs in my airline and across the industry
 
BA777FO
Posts: 472
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: Norwegian Airlines ceases LAS service

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:08 pm

planesarecool wrote:
Once again, you're incorrect. The densified 777s only operate two of the six weekly flights, the others are on 275-seat un-refurbished aircraft. Either way, it's not a "year on year increase" as you claim.


In summer 2017 BA operated 10 weekly frequencies to LAS, all from LHR on the mid-J 747. Summer 2019 sees 13 weekly frequencies, 7 from LHR on the 747 and 6 from LGW on the 777. It's an increase.

Continuing to say "you have no idea what you're talking about" isn't going to make you look any less embarrassing to your hard-working colleagues. Your falsities are many, you evidently have no idea on the concept of seasonality for a start. Claiming Gatwick-New York is being reduced to cater for the refurbishment (densification) of 777s is incorrect, the refurbishment schedule of the 777s is widely available in the public domain and is not being accelerated in January next year


Like your comment elsewhere that no airline makes a profit in Q1?!

I spend half of my life flying seasonal routes, I've spent virtually my entire career flying them. I understand it. You can't accept that this summer LGW is being "loaned" a 777 from LHR to make the based number of 777s at LGW 14 instead of 13. That 777 will return to LHR this winter to cover for the start of the GE 777s getting the Club suite. While this is going on, LGW based 777s will still be undergoing refits, so that's the loss of more airframes. Cutting JFK is commercially the easiest as they can be reaccommodated on any of the 8+ a day flights from LHR. You can't do that with BDA, ANU, UVF etc.

Claiming YYC and CHS are only seasonal to cater for new routes to KIX, DUR and ISB, whilst all five run along side each other this Summer is, once again, incorrect.


The 787-8 returns to Nashville in place of the -9 - that accounts for 5x week of YYCs. Some BOS, YYZ and EWR frequencies also shift onto other airframes. The 787-9 from BNA takes over PHX this winter before the new 77W deliveries pick it up for summer 2020. A 747 was just retired, that needs to be accounted for as well as shifts with A350 deliveries. BA has a large seasonal variation on short haul but longhaul ASKs are actually broadly similar from one season to the next.

You were incorrect about BA's "year on year increase" in LAS squeezing out Norwegian, as there is no "year on year increase" from BA. More or less everything you've said about Norwegian is incorrect,


See above - big jump from 2017 to 2019. Norwegian? Yeah, let me know when they turn a profit. Don't forget, we've had a few ex-Norwegian pilots join us, they certainly have some interesting stories to tell.

whilst I'm not going to dig out old threads to find every single one, my favourite of all time had to be your claim that "British Airways have made FLL work in their own right", two weeks before they announced its cancellation along with quoted load factors of 64%. :lol:


It coincides with MIA going 3x daily. An increase in capacity to the Miami area year on year ;) the FLL frequencies are being put to good use on CUN, KIN and elsewhere.

Your claim that the refurbishment (densification) of the 777s has lead to "improved customer survey responses" is straight out of the management PR-spin handbook. Do you, a regular line pilot, have access to customer survey responses, or are you regurgitating what was fed to you in a management email?


We do get to see them, yes. Part of the "Customer Voice" surveys.

I'm sure customer survey responses for the refurbished 777s are positive, but that's more a reflection on what they replaced rather than the customer's delight for BA reducing seat and aisle width by adding an extra seat per row.


I agree, what has been replaced was tired and outdated. Progress has been slow but it's evidently moving in the right direction. Many LGW customers are families ir couples, 4 middle seats makes a big difference not having to split across aisles. The seat really isn't that much narrower, 0.5".

I think if you want to carry it on though, best PM. This has diverged far enough from Norwegian's demise at LAS.

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