F9Animal
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:21 pm

Jetty wrote:
Federal prosecutors have subpoenaed records from Boeing relating to the production of the 787 Dreamliner in South Carolina, where there have been allegations of shoddy work.
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... r-records/

This is not looking good right after publication of outsourcing critical software design to developing countries, too slow processors to handle MCAS 2.0 and the absence of the supposed to be delivered 787-10 at KL’s 100 year festivities. One can only hope that Boeing seriously rethinks their way of doing business.


As a former Boeing employee, I saw the writing on the wall after the 2008 strike. All of us had warned the corporate top brass that their bean counting and outsourcing would eventually bite them on the ass. Of course, McNerney dug as deep as he could to increase profits and reduce costs. His axe to grind by opening the non union plant in Charleston was pure revenge and a hardcore attempt to break the unions. When McNerney left, most of us hoped new leadership would not be as harsh, and relax the full on employee destruction. Before McNerney left, he joked about how the employees cowered to him, and how great it felt to see the workers bow in fear to him.

Sadly, the leadership has not changed it's tactics. The union workers keep on building them, but the outsourcing has gotten so out of hand, the company has virtually lost complete control of the product they build. One hand is not talking to the other, and the execs keep pinching pennies in every aspect they can to increase profits. Now this game is directly affecting the actual customers, and that is where the top brass needs to sit down, and have a very serious look in the mirror. This "too big to fail" game the top brass is playing will eventually end Boeing. The company is in a direct path of complete destruction. The company is NOT healthy. And I saw someone mention the stock still doing okay..... That's what got this disaster started in the first place! I can show you a shitload of stock certificates from some of the big boy airlines that are long history, and the paper they are printed on aren't worth a penny.

A very serious makeover is in dire needs, and if it does not happen, Boeing will ultimately die. The MAX disaster alone may be the precursor. When Boeing rolled out a shell of a 787, that too was a massive warning sign. Promises have been broken so many times with this company in the last 10 years. And we must never forget!!! The only reason Boeing is still in business is because of it's customers. Boeing needs to also consider it's very own employees customers too. The atmosphere in those factories are dismal, and morale has been rock bottom since the top brass has ruled with iron fists. Boeing is a complete mess, and where they go from here is the deciding factor of the companies future. I really hope they can change this pattern. Alot of the outsourcing has to be brought back in house, and Boeing needs to get back to what it once was... One of the best plane makers ever.
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Channex757
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:24 pm

Singe me if you want, but I always felt Boeing's core error was to pass over Alan Mulally as CEO. His principle of "Working Together" was the old way of working at Boeing before it all got snippy and penny-pinching.

People who worked in the business at the time will confirm that Boeing was a team. A big team, but a team nevertheless. Alan was involved in bringing in subcontractors and making it work, so he hed experience Boeing sorely needed later on. Appointing over his head was Ford's gain.
 
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:32 pm

As a former Boeing employee, I saw the writing on the wall after the 2008 strike. All of us had warned the corporate top brass that their bean counting and outsourcing would eventually bite them on the ass. Of course, McNerney dug as deep as he could to increase profits and reduce costs. His axe to grind by opening the non union plant in Charleston was pure revenge and a hardcore attempt to break the unions. When McNerney left, most of us hoped new leadership would not be as harsh, and relax the full on employee destruction. Before McNerney left, he joked about how the employees cowered to him, and how great it felt to see the workers bow in fear to him.

Sadly, the leadership has not changed it's tactics. The union workers keep on building them, but the outsourcing has gotten so out of hand, the company has virtually lost complete control of the product they build. One hand is not talking to the other, and the execs keep pinching pennies in every aspect they can to increase profits. Now this game is directly affecting the actual customers, and that is where the top brass needs to sit down, and have a very serious look in the mirror. This "too big to fail" game the top brass is playing will eventually end Boeing. The company is in a direct path of complete destruction. The company is NOT healthy. And I saw someone mention the stock still doing okay..... That's what got this disaster started in the first place! I can show you a shitload of stock certificates from some of the big boy airlines that are long history, and the paper they are printed on aren't worth a penny.

A very serious makeover is in dire needs, and if it does not happen, Boeing will ultimately die. The MAX disaster alone may be the precursor. When Boeing rolled out a shell of a 787, that too was a massive warning sign. Promises have been broken so many times with this company in the last 10 years. And we must never forget!!! The only reason Boeing is still in business is because of it's customers. Boeing needs to also consider it's very own employees customers too. The atmosphere in those factories are dismal, and morale has been rock bottom since the top brass has ruled with iron fists. Boeing is a complete mess, and where they go from here is the deciding factor of the companies future. I really hope they can change this pattern. Alot of the outsourcing has to be brought back in house, and Boeing needs to get back to what it once was... One of the best plane makers ever.[/quote]



A bit melodramatic from a "former" employee...likely with an ax to grind. I don't disagree there are some management problems but I am quite certain the dystopian picture you paint is far from accurate.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Site

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:33 pm

Pyrex wrote:
Unions ordered a hit job by a friendly press on a non-union plant, federal bureaucrats use it as an excuse to harass a company now that the bank shake-down gravy train is slowing down. Simple as that. Boeing should respond to the irresponsible actions of the unions in this case by making sure the NMA is 100% Charleston-built. Clearly Boeing (or any other manufacturer) has no future in the Seattle area, just hand over the keys of the city to Bezos and call it a day.


And that my friend is how all of this started. Let's get serious for a second here. You are blaming the union for this? Was the union responsible for the shell of a plane that rolled out, called the 787? Did the union crash 2 brand new 737 Max planes? You sound just like McNerney... Make the unions cower!!! Punish them to the fullest!!! Rule them with an iron fist!

Hey pal!!! Those union workers are not the problem here. Charleston is a cluster f&ck. And Charleston is really the least of Boeing's problem. The unions are the least of Boeing's problem! The real problem with Boeing are the hard headed leaders that stirred up this outsourcing and union revenge bull$hit. Cutting here, outsourcing there, and maximizing the profits are the EXACT reason the company is failing. Thats right! Boeing is headed towards bankruptcy. The punishment belongs to those who initiated these problems, and that started in the top floors of the tower in Chicago. So please, before you point fingers at the union, consider the reality that Boeing's union busting failed. And also, that article is spot on accurate. And let it be known!!! The unions at Boeing had nothing to do with this. It's not a hit job. It's reality. It's not fake news. It's not political. It's airplanes being sent to their customers that have serious issues. Cheap labor and airplanes DO NOT mix well.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Site

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:38 pm

F9Animal wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
Unions ordered a hit job by a friendly press on a non-union plant, federal bureaucrats use it as an excuse to harass a company now that the bank shake-down gravy train is slowing down. Simple as that. Boeing should respond to the irresponsible actions of the unions in this case by making sure the NMA is 100% Charleston-built. Clearly Boeing (or any other manufacturer) has no future in the Seattle area, just hand over the keys of the city to Bezos and call it a day.


And that my friend is how all of this started. Let's get serious for a second here. You are blaming the union for this? Was the union responsible for the shell of a plane that rolled out, called the 787? Did the union crash 2 brand new 737 Max planes? You sound just like McNerney... Make the unions cower!!! Punish them to the fullest!!! Rule them with an iron fist!

Hey pal!!! Those union workers are not the problem here. Charleston is a cluster f&ck. And Charleston is really the least of Boeing's problem. The unions are the least of Boeing's problem! The real problem with Boeing are the hard headed leaders that stirred up this outsourcing and union revenge bull$hit. Cutting here, outsourcing there, and maximizing the profits are the EXACT reason the company is failing. Thats right! Boeing is headed towards bankruptcy. The punishment belongs to those who initiated these problems, and that started in the top floors of the tower in Chicago. So please, before you point fingers at the union, consider the reality that Boeing's union busting failed. And also, that article is spot on accurate.


Oh please. The unions got bent out of shape when CHS was just an idea. They hated it before the first piece of Earth was moved or the first CHS employee hired. These are the same people who threatened to strike when they went from three to two dental cleanings a year. If a union was voted in at CHS you would never hear another complaint from the WA employees. A bad employee can be fired for screwing up at the CHS facility. Not so for the WA facilities.
 
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Site

Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:46 pm

Bricktop wrote:
acjbbj wrote:
There is NO such thing as "too big to fail."

If only.

No, I'm serious.
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:36 am

This is all going to make a great novel, or indeed factual book in the future.

It's already reminding me of a published novel: Michael Chrichton's "Airframe".
 
F9Animal
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:41 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
Unions ordered a hit job by a friendly press on a non-union plant, federal bureaucrats use it as an excuse to harass a company now that the bank shake-down gravy train is slowing down. Simple as that. Boeing should respond to the irresponsible actions of the unions in this case by making sure the NMA is 100% Charleston-built. Clearly Boeing (or any other manufacturer) has no future in the Seattle area, just hand over the keys of the city to Bezos and call it a day.


And that my friend is how all of this started. Let's get serious for a second here. You are blaming the union for this? Was the union responsible for the shell of a plane that rolled out, called the 787? Did the union crash 2 brand new 737 Max planes? You sound just like McNerney... Make the unions cower!!! Punish them to the fullest!!! Rule them with an iron fist!

Hey pal!!! Those union workers are not the problem here. Charleston is a cluster f&ck. And Charleston is really the least of Boeing's problem. The unions are the least of Boeing's problem! The real problem with Boeing are the hard headed leaders that stirred up this outsourcing and union revenge bull$hit. Cutting here, outsourcing there, and maximizing the profits are the EXACT reason the company is failing. Thats right! Boeing is headed towards bankruptcy. The punishment belongs to those who initiated these problems, and that started in the top floors of the tower in Chicago. So please, before you point fingers at the union, consider the reality that Boeing's union busting failed. And also, that article is spot on accurate.


Oh please. The unions got bent out of shape when CHS was just an idea. They hated it before the first piece of Earth was moved or the first CHS employee hired. These are the same people who threatened to strike when they went from three to two dental cleanings a year. If a union was voted in at CHS you would never hear another complaint from the WA employees. A bad employee can be fired for screwing up at the CHS facility. Not so for the WA facilities.


Oh please. Define unions for me if you don't mind. Are you speaking of the entire membership, meaning every single employee under those union contracts? You bet the employees were concerned when CHS was opened. It was an attempt to break their union. And guess what? It didn't work. Last time I checked, the operations in Washington State are doing pretty darned good. Those planes that are sitting idle in parking lots are NOT because of the unions. They are sitting idle because of piss poor management and executive choices.

Charleston was a get even score for the 2008 strike. We were told that if we didn't accept their final offer, they would pursue putting a factory in a right to work state. Of course, we absolutely refused to be bullied by McNerney, and walked out. The execs bought land in Charleston, and opened a brand new factory. Hired a bunch of workers off the streets, that knew nothing about airplanes, and handed them the keys to start production. Just to get even with the union workforce in Washington. An attempt to scare the union, and in hopes of breaking the union. McNerney admitted he did it for that sole purpose. That decision he made came back to haunt him, as it is evident that to this day. Lots of piss poor decisions by the top brass are haunting them to this day.

A bad union employee can be fired just as easy as a non union employee. But you kind of summed it up yourself. CHS must have a large batch of bad employees. The article isn't fake news by the way. It's a bullseye.

As for the dental cleanings? That is not correct and utterly false. Boeings top brass failed with it's little get even plan. Again, this all lies in the lap of the top brass at Boeing.
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F9Animal
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:54 am

[/quote] A bit melodramatic from a "former" employee...likely with an ax to grind. I don't disagree there are some management problems but I am quite certain the dystopian picture you paint is far from accurate.[/quote]

Yes, a former employee. No axe to grind at all! In fact, very glad I left. It was indeed a miserable atmosphere. Morale was rock bottom, and it has not gotten any better. I needed a change, and moved on happily. But don't think for a second that I won't speak the truth, and blow sunshine up someone's butt when it's pouring rain outside. I stand firm with those workers, and I feel horrible for them. None of these issues fall on their laps. Boeings problems are not the factory workers fault. It falls directly on management and the top brass.
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Interested
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:14 am

I think it's a matter of time before the existing Boeing CEO is replaced

They need a fresh start. One hell of a tough turnaround job for a new guy to take on though.
 
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:45 am

My little contribution.
I think the 787 production (paperwork) quality issues can't be blamed on the workers there.
The work culture is wrong. Delivering a plane in time is more important than delivering a good product. That culture is made by Boeing's management, they caused the problem and all Boeing employees are needed to fix it.
Boeing really is stuck in a huge pile of trouble.
- 737MAX, hardly any remaining 737NG orders => hardly any 737 deliveries.
- 777 and 747 orders are nearly done. And 777x GE9x problems will lead to a further decline in 777 output.
- 767 is only running on freighters and KC-46. Production quality issues on KC-46.
- 787 Chalston investigations.
I can't find a program that is running smoothly, the 787 is for now still their best program.
 
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:46 am

Interested wrote:
I think it's a matter of time before the existing Boeing CEO is replaced

They need a fresh start. One hell of a tough turnaround job for a new guy to take on though.


I agree. Not just a new CEO. The entire tower in Chicago needs to be sent packing. The culture that has been created there is alarming, and the only savior of that company at this point is a complete overhaul of the leadership team. It's a shame how bad this has turned. I have my doubts that Boeing may even be able to survive this. It's not good at all.
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Canuck600
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:05 am

Program heads/department heads in Seattle need to go to as they are they are the most hands on directly involved with what's going on. The heads in Chicago set the direction but they don't have much to do with day to day operations.
 
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:19 am

Canuck600 wrote:
Program heads/department heads in Seattle need to go to as they are they are the most hands on directly involved with what's going on. The heads in Chicago set the direction but they don't have much to do with day to day operations.


The whole culture at Boeing seems to be broken

And that starts from the top down
 
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Siteuror

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:25 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
Boeing is a company in crisis. I hate to say it but their survival as a leading commercial aircraft manufacturer is in jeopardy. The drip drip of bad news is killing them.


I was saying this for 20 years. While I have often defended Boeing here, truth is the company has been so poorly managed for the past 22 years, it’s despicable.

I could tell many stories.


I would love to hear those stories
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Siteuror

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:43 am

fallap wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
Boeing is a company in crisis. I hate to say it but their survival as a leading commercial aircraft manufacturer is in jeopardy. The drip drip of bad news is killing them.


I was saying this for 20 years. While I have often defended Boeing here, truth is the company has been so poorly managed for the past 22 years, it’s despicable.

I could tell many stories.


I would love to hear those stories


Seems like plenty of whistleblowers are telling those stories now to the people who matter tbh

And we just find out about them from "sources" who then speak to the media in confidence

It looks like a domino effect is happening
 
Canuck600
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:57 am

Interested wrote:
Canuck600 wrote:
Program heads/department heads in Seattle need to go to as they are they are the most hands on directly involved with what's going on. The heads in Chicago set the direction but they don't have much to do with day to day operations.


The whole culture at Boeing seems to be broken

And that starts from the top down


The top needs to go for sure, but also the people responsible for carrying out the actions. That's why I'm say people in Seattle need to go to0, cutting corners is so ingrained in direct operations that even if you cut the top, people in Seattle would still carry on with shoddy practices because it's been happening for so long. So the people who manage programs & the shop floor operations need to go or assigned to other areas that don't have tainted cultures, If the tainted ones are outnumbered & rigidly supervised they should be able to get back into to doing it right.

Get proper people on the shop floor supervising & enforcing standards & the problem will rectify itself.
 
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:47 am

Boeing will never be allowed to fail

But it could end up being rescued at some stage by the US government and being an entirely different organisation to the one we see today

The name and brand will always be there I'm sure. It's too big to fail in that respect
 
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:41 am

Interested wrote:
Boeing will never be allowed to fail

But it could end up being rescued at some stage by the US government and being an entirely different organisation to the one we see today

The name and brand will always be there I'm sure. It's too big to fail in that respect

Do you think it would be a good idea to have Boeing's name, font, and their entire commercial division go to Lockheed Martin? "Lockheed Martin Corporation, Boeing Commercial Aircraft division"?

It would be more straightforward to have a Big Three in airplanes that way, since Boeing's military division could rebrand as the new McDonnell-Douglas and acquire all of the Douglas commercial designs.

Half of the people at the commercial side of Boeing now would stay at the new Boeing while the other half would go to MDC to get them back into commercial aviation.
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:15 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
Unions ordered a hit job by a friendly press on a non-union plant, federal bureaucrats use it as an excuse to harass a company now that the bank shake-down gravy train is slowing down. Simple as that. Boeing should respond to the irresponsible actions of the unions in this case by making sure the NMA is 100% Charleston-built. Clearly Boeing (or any other manufacturer) has no future in the Seattle area, just hand over the keys of the city to Bezos and call it a day.


You nailed it. The pro-union Boeing employees and press were after Charleston before the first employee was even hired.


Pay no attention to those Union-built MAX aircraft and those KC-46s with FOD left behind by those ‘workers.’ Roll eyes.
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B787register
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:41 am

I think from my records which I'm not allowed to post I only have evidence of 1 B787 that needed it's fuel tanks to under going a aqueous wash shortly after it was built due to FOD. That was in Everett.
Besides Qatar not accepting any Charleston birds, namely due to paint issues nothing more, I haven't seen any airline complaining about quality from Charleston unless anyone can advise me otherwise?
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:03 pm

Interested wrote:
Boeing will never be allowed to fail

But it could end up being rescued at some stage by the US government and being an entirely different organisation to the one we see today

The name and brand will always be there I'm sure. It's too big to fail in that respect

Well if Chpt.11 fails they could go to the government, but as a private company my bet is chpt.11 long before they appeal to the government.
At least on A.Net we will finally get a genuine discussion on chpt.11 being a government bailout versus the wiping out of private investors and employee pensions.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:28 pm

EK77WNH wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
Unions ordered a hit job by a friendly press on a non-union plant, federal bureaucrats use it as an excuse to harass a company now that the bank shake-down gravy train is slowing down. Simple as that. Boeing should respond to the irresponsible actions of the unions in this case by making sure the NMA is 100% Charleston-built. Clearly Boeing (or any other manufacturer) has no future in the Seattle area, just hand over the keys of the city to Bezos and call it a day.


You nailed it. The pro-union Boeing employees and press were after Charleston before the first employee was even hired.


Pay no attention to those Union-built MAX aircraft and those KC-46s with FOD left behind by those ‘workers.’ Roll eyes.


You are correct. Let's shift away for a moment from union and non union here. Let's look at the culture that has been brought by the leadership. Rush!!! Hurry!!! Instead of 30 737's a month, let's slam out 70! Increase those profits. The execs have spent more time at a table brainstorming ideas to increase that profit margin, not even considering the consequences that could come from a rush job. It is evident that the MAX was NOT ready, and it reminds me of the day that shell of a plane rolled off the assembly line in the 2000's.

This actually goes back to the day they rolled out that 787, and made a huge deal about it. Promises made that the plane was going to be on time. It was just a shell! Held together by fasteners that were not even legit. That was shoddy, and that was not the fault of the factory workers. That should have been sending warning bells going off all over the industry. You and I both know the 787 nearly failed. Charleston was rushed, and Boeing couldn't get people hired off the streets fast enough. That implementation was a disaster too.

This is NOT the Boeing we all knew. A company that stood behind it's product, putting out quality before quantity. The execs shoved lean manufacturing so hard, it caused the beginning of the mess. Then Boeing started it's process of reducing it's QA and engineer staff, outsourcing it to other places.

Reality is this. This is not the ultimate finger pointing at the unions or non union factory workers. Those men and women are trying to adapt to this new rushed culture. When you are rushed, mistakes will happen. This is why I have not blamed those factory workers, and pointed my torch at the top brass. I don't give a darn about the stock price at this point. And yes, I am a stock holder! What I care about is the urgent need to revamp the entire program from top to bottom. New blood needs to come in at the executive levels just as a start. In fact, I believe production needs to halt for a few days as these factory workers can actually point out the areas that need serious fixes. If that means lowering the rate of production until they get a better grip on things, then so be it.

This isn't a production or union problem. This is a culture problem. Back in the days, those factory workers had a voice and were not afraid to speak up when there were issues. Nowadays, they are backed into a corner and told to how they will do the work. If that culture continues, I am confident the end of Boeing will come. Those stock certificates I hold will be worth nothing. And if I am anti Boeing, I would have sold my stock after the first MAX crash.

And I think a majority of us want to see Boeing be successful. Until then, I think every single one of us should be concerned about this companies future. I mean look at us!! Blaming unions for this? Really? Blaming non union workers for this? Really? It's just too damned easy to point fingers, but those fingers need to be pointed at that tower in Chicago.
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BoeingGuy
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Siteuror

Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:36 pm

fallap wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
Boeing is a company in crisis. I hate to say it but their survival as a leading commercial aircraft manufacturer is in jeopardy. The drip drip of bad news is killing them.


I was saying this for 20 years. While I have often defended Boeing here, truth is the company has been so poorly managed for the past 22 years, it’s despicable.

I could tell many stories.


I would love to hear those stories


Now I didn’t say that I’ve ever seen anybody intentionally disregard safety. I’m talking about beancounter type stuff. I’ve seen so many idiotic decisions that save money in the short term - or makes one leader look good - but ends up costing the company far more in the long term.

Thing that makes me the maddest is McSlimeball cutting everyone’s pension accrual, but himself walking away with an obscene retirement so he can live in riches.
 
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:37 pm

Interested wrote:
Boeing will never be allowed to fail

But it could end up being rescued at some stage by the US government and being an entirely different organisation to the one we see today

The name and brand will always be there I'm sure. It's too big to fail in that respect


I really hope you are correct! I have alot of family working there. But, I recall the same things being said about Pan Am and Eastern. Toys R Us and Circuit City. Even Bezos with Amazon said that his own company will one day be gone. I just hope that a major makeover is made at Boeing. The entire executive team needs pink slips. These problems started at the very top, and accountability ranks high on them.
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Siteuror

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:45 pm

Super80Fan wrote:

Yup, that's all that matters to companies in the US. As long as their stock & bottom line are doing fine, safety, employee well-being, customer well-being, and sustainability doesn't matter or can go out the window completely.


So you think companies in other countries *aren't* focused on their stock and bottom line... I feel very sorry for you if that's the case.

Back in the Real World, those things are all connected. "Employee well-being" just isn't as easy to measure as profit/stock levels.
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:22 pm

Newark727 wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
Elshad wrote:
All senior Boeing executives should be arrested until we figure out what the hell is going on.


Thankfully you don't run the US cause that is not how any democratic society should function. Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law by trial with a jury of peers.


Bricktop wrote:
Great advice if you don't believe in due process. Why don't we beat the shit out of them too for good measure? Rich bastards could use a kicking!


Yeah, look at where the last guy who promised radical, probably illegal policies "until we figure out what the hell is going on" ended up. Exact words... ;)

Honestly Hillary Clinton vs Donald Trump was the perfect analogy for where the American left and right are at.

Back on topic: I understand the desire to rage against the rich. I tend to be economically leftist myself. But throwing some people in jail just because they are vaguely related to something possibly but not certainly criminal is insane. This is the stuff the CCP and Soviet Union were famous for as another poster put it much more cleverly. In theory, we live in a somewhat free democratic nation. Those rights apply to everyone. Even the elite. Just because innocent until proven guilty is never real in practice, doesn't mean we should think it is okay.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Siteuror

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:22 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

Yup, that's all that matters to companies in the US. As long as their stock & bottom line are doing fine, safety, employee well-being, customer well-being, and sustainability doesn't matter or can go out the window completely.


So you think companies in other countries *aren't* focused on their stock and bottom line... I feel very sorry for you if that's the case.

Back in the Real World, those things are all connected. "Employee well-being" just isn't as easy to measure as profit/stock levels.

I think he might be implying that in other countries the two often come hand in hand rather than in conflict
 
nycbjr
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:28 pm

Channex757 wrote:
Singe me if you want, but I always felt Boeing's core error was to pass over Alan Mulally as CEO. His principle of "Working Together" was the old way of working at Boeing before it all got snippy and penny-pinching.

People who worked in the business at the time will confirm that Boeing was a team. A big team, but a team nevertheless. Alan was involved in bringing in subcontractors and making it work, so he hed experience Boeing sorely needed later on. Appointing over his head was Ford's gain.


I agree with this statement, heck Boeing should bring him back now to fix this mess!
 
AleksW
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:31 pm

Era of duopoly will come to an end at some point. In the next 1-2 decades, who knows, there will be Russia and China, maybe someone else. You mess once, you are out of the game and produce pencils and not planes.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:45 pm

nycbjr wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Singe me if you want, but I always felt Boeing's core error was to pass over Alan Mulally as CEO. His principle of "Working Together" was the old way of working at Boeing before it all got snippy and penny-pinching.

People who worked in the business at the time will confirm that Boeing was a team. A big team, but a team nevertheless. Alan was involved in bringing in subcontractors and making it work, so he hed experience Boeing sorely needed later on. Appointing over his head was Ford's gain.


I agree with this statement, heck Boeing should bring him back now to fix this mess!

I have railed against the Jack Welch CEO tree for ever. Muilenberg hasn't been stellar, but under McNerney this would have been a total cluster-f.
 
Cdydatzigs
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:00 pm

LDRA wrote:
Fed is just fishing for info at this stage


Not really. If a cop pulls a car over with illegal modifications and a bag of weed in the glove box, odds are if allowed, said cop would find a lot more wrong things with the car.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1024
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:13 pm

B787register wrote:
I haven't seen any airline complaining about quality from Charleston unless anyone can advise me otherwise?

Airlines don't make public complaints.

There is a defect resolution process in standard A & B, and bespoke sales / purchase agreements, all the way to arbitration, including mutually agreed expert participants. Confidentiality clauses are a key component of such agreements.

What reaches the public arena is a fraction of THE issues, or made up.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:39 pm

smartplane wrote:
Airlines don't make public complaints.

Al Baker: hold my beer...

Certain airlines do make their complaints public. It's well know who they are, and it might be part of their negotiation tactics; but they do make those public, and very loudly...
 
SEU
Posts: 146
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:47 pm

I dont think this news should shock anyone with the recent whilstleblowing and media coverage of boeings issues. I think itll be more serious if they find anything else seriously wrong from this.
 
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DL717
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:48 pm

F9Animal wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Federal prosecutors have subpoenaed records from Boeing relating to the production of the 787 Dreamliner in South Carolina, where there have been allegations of shoddy work.
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... r-records/

This is not looking good right after publication of outsourcing critical software design to developing countries, too slow processors to handle MCAS 2.0 and the absence of the supposed to be delivered 787-10 at KL’s 100 year festivities. One can only hope that Boeing seriously rethinks their way of doing business.


As a former Boeing employee, I saw the writing on the wall after the 2008 strike. All of us had warned the corporate top brass that their bean counting and outsourcing would eventually bite them on the ass. Of course, McNerney dug as deep as he could to increase profits and reduce costs. His axe to grind by opening the non union plant in Charleston was pure revenge and a hardcore attempt to break the unions. When McNerney left, most of us hoped new leadership would not be as harsh, and relax the full on employee destruction. Before McNerney left, he joked about how the employees cowered to him, and how great it felt to see the workers bow in fear to him.

Sadly, the leadership has not changed it's tactics. The union workers keep on building them, but the outsourcing has gotten so out of hand, the company has virtually lost complete control of the product they build. One hand is not talking to the other, and the execs keep pinching pennies in every aspect they can to increase profits. Now this game is directly affecting the actual customers, and that is where the top brass needs to sit down, and have a very serious look in the mirror. This "too big to fail" game the top brass is playing will eventually end Boeing. The company is in a direct path of complete destruction. The company is NOT healthy. And I saw someone mention the stock still doing okay..... That's what got this disaster started in the first place! I can show you a shitload of stock certificates from some of the big boy airlines that are long history, and the paper they are printed on aren't worth a penny.

A very serious makeover is in dire needs, and if it does not happen, Boeing will ultimately die. The MAX disaster alone may be the precursor. When Boeing rolled out a shell of a 787, that too was a massive warning sign. Promises have been broken so many times with this company in the last 10 years. And we must never forget!!! The only reason Boeing is still in business is because of it's customers. Boeing needs to also consider it's very own employees customers too. The atmosphere in those factories are dismal, and morale has been rock bottom since the top brass has ruled with iron fists. Boeing is a complete mess, and where they go from here is the deciding factor of the companies future. I really hope they can change this pattern. Alot of the outsourcing has to be brought back in house, and Boeing needs to get back to what it once was... One of the best plane makers ever.


Oh brother. :roll:


BTW....Anyone consider that the issue is with FAA inspectors and poor oversight, potentially criminal, not Boeing? Seems odd to jump from Renton to Charleston...
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SEU
Posts: 146
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:53 pm

DL717 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Federal prosecutors have subpoenaed records from Boeing relating to the production of the 787 Dreamliner in South Carolina, where there have been allegations of shoddy work.
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... r-records/

This is not looking good right after publication of outsourcing critical software design to developing countries, too slow processors to handle MCAS 2.0 and the absence of the supposed to be delivered 787-10 at KL’s 100 year festivities. One can only hope that Boeing seriously rethinks their way of doing business.


As a former Boeing employee, I saw the writing on the wall after the 2008 strike. All of us had warned the corporate top brass that their bean counting and outsourcing would eventually bite them on the ass. Of course, McNerney dug as deep as he could to increase profits and reduce costs. His axe to grind by opening the non union plant in Charleston was pure revenge and a hardcore attempt to break the unions. When McNerney left, most of us hoped new leadership would not be as harsh, and relax the full on employee destruction. Before McNerney left, he joked about how the employees cowered to him, and how great it felt to see the workers bow in fear to him.

Sadly, the leadership has not changed it's tactics. The union workers keep on building them, but the outsourcing has gotten so out of hand, the company has virtually lost complete control of the product they build. One hand is not talking to the other, and the execs keep pinching pennies in every aspect they can to increase profits. Now this game is directly affecting the actual customers, and that is where the top brass needs to sit down, and have a very serious look in the mirror. This "too big to fail" game the top brass is playing will eventually end Boeing. The company is in a direct path of complete destruction. The company is NOT healthy. And I saw someone mention the stock still doing okay..... That's what got this disaster started in the first place! I can show you a shitload of stock certificates from some of the big boy airlines that are long history, and the paper they are printed on aren't worth a penny.

A very serious makeover is in dire needs, and if it does not happen, Boeing will ultimately die. The MAX disaster alone may be the precursor. When Boeing rolled out a shell of a 787, that too was a massive warning sign. Promises have been broken so many times with this company in the last 10 years. And we must never forget!!! The only reason Boeing is still in business is because of it's customers. Boeing needs to also consider it's very own employees customers too. The atmosphere in those factories are dismal, and morale has been rock bottom since the top brass has ruled with iron fists. Boeing is a complete mess, and where they go from here is the deciding factor of the companies future. I really hope they can change this pattern. Alot of the outsourcing has to be brought back in house, and Boeing needs to get back to what it once was... One of the best plane makers ever.


Oh brother. :roll:


BTW....Anyone consider that the issue is with FAA inspectors and poor oversight, potentially criminal, not Boeing? Seems odd to jump from Renton to Charleston...


oh yeah, this is entirely the FAA fault and nothing to do with Boeing. Boeing are clean.
 
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DL717
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:57 pm

SEU wrote:
DL717 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:

As a former Boeing employee, I saw the writing on the wall after the 2008 strike. All of us had warned the corporate top brass that their bean counting and outsourcing would eventually bite them on the ass. Of course, McNerney dug as deep as he could to increase profits and reduce costs. His axe to grind by opening the non union plant in Charleston was pure revenge and a hardcore attempt to break the unions. When McNerney left, most of us hoped new leadership would not be as harsh, and relax the full on employee destruction. Before McNerney left, he joked about how the employees cowered to him, and how great it felt to see the workers bow in fear to him.

Sadly, the leadership has not changed it's tactics. The union workers keep on building them, but the outsourcing has gotten so out of hand, the company has virtually lost complete control of the product they build. One hand is not talking to the other, and the execs keep pinching pennies in every aspect they can to increase profits. Now this game is directly affecting the actual customers, and that is where the top brass needs to sit down, and have a very serious look in the mirror. This "too big to fail" game the top brass is playing will eventually end Boeing. The company is in a direct path of complete destruction. The company is NOT healthy. And I saw someone mention the stock still doing okay..... That's what got this disaster started in the first place! I can show you a shitload of stock certificates from some of the big boy airlines that are long history, and the paper they are printed on aren't worth a penny.

A very serious makeover is in dire needs, and if it does not happen, Boeing will ultimately die. The MAX disaster alone may be the precursor. When Boeing rolled out a shell of a 787, that too was a massive warning sign. Promises have been broken so many times with this company in the last 10 years. And we must never forget!!! The only reason Boeing is still in business is because of it's customers. Boeing needs to also consider it's very own employees customers too. The atmosphere in those factories are dismal, and morale has been rock bottom since the top brass has ruled with iron fists. Boeing is a complete mess, and where they go from here is the deciding factor of the companies future. I really hope they can change this pattern. Alot of the outsourcing has to be brought back in house, and Boeing needs to get back to what it once was... One of the best plane makers ever.


Oh brother. :roll:


BTW....Anyone consider that the issue is with FAA inspectors and poor oversight, potentially criminal, not Boeing? Seems odd to jump from Renton to Charleston...


oh yeah, this is entirely the FAA fault and nothing to do with Boeing. Boeing are clean.


The FAA is responsible for certification of aircraft, whether they pass some responsibility to the company or not. The buck stops with them. It's not only possible, its probable there is an issue within the FAA. There has been massive turnover at all levels of the FAA in recent years.
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SEU
Posts: 146
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:05 pm

DL717 wrote:
SEU wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Oh brother. :roll:


BTW....Anyone consider that the issue is with FAA inspectors and poor oversight, potentially criminal, not Boeing? Seems odd to jump from Renton to Charleston...


oh yeah, this is entirely the FAA fault and nothing to do with Boeing. Boeing are clean.


The FAA is responsible for certification of aircraft, whether they pass some responsibility to the company or not. The buck stops with them. It's not only possible, its probable there is an issue within the FAA. There has been massive turnover at all levels of the FAA in recent years.


I have to disagree with you - yes FAA needs to answer questions as to why they certified an aircraft, which in this day and age, should never have been allowed to fly passengers, the "buck" doesnt stop with them. It should never have passed from Boeing to FAA in the first place.
 
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DL717
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:17 pm

SEU wrote:
DL717 wrote:
SEU wrote:

oh yeah, this is entirely the FAA fault and nothing to do with Boeing. Boeing are clean.


The FAA is responsible for certification of aircraft, whether they pass some responsibility to the company or not. The buck stops with them. It's not only possible, its probable there is an issue within the FAA. There has been massive turnover at all levels of the FAA in recent years.


I have to disagree with you - yes FAA needs to answer questions as to why they certified an aircraft, which in this day and age, should never have been allowed to fly passengers, the "buck" doesnt stop with them. It should never have passed from Boeing to FAA in the first place.


Yes. It does stop with the FAA. They oversee the design and certification. It makes more sense that some FAA inspectors migrated between two assembly facilities, not workers. If any oversight in the deign and certification was handed over to Boeing, it still falls on the FAA. Do you really think the FAA just stands around outside a hangar waiting for roll-out? If so, you don't know much about the process at all.
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F9Animal
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:40 am

DL717 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Federal prosecutors have subpoenaed records from Boeing relating to the production of the 787 Dreamliner in South Carolina, where there have been allegations of shoddy work.
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... r-records/

This is not looking good right after publication of outsourcing critical software design to developing countries, too slow processors to handle MCAS 2.0 and the absence of the supposed to be delivered 787-10 at KL’s 100 year festivities. One can only hope that Boeing seriously rethinks their way of doing business.


As a former Boeing employee, I saw the writing on the wall after the 2008 strike. All of us had warned the corporate top brass that their bean counting and outsourcing would eventually bite them on the ass. Of course, McNerney dug as deep as he could to increase profits and reduce costs. His axe to grind by opening the non union plant in Charleston was pure revenge and a hardcore attempt to break the unions. When McNerney left, most of us hoped new leadership would not be as harsh, and relax the full on employee destruction. Before McNerney left, he joked about how the employees cowered to him, and how great it felt to see the workers bow in fear to him.

Sadly, the leadership has not changed it's tactics. The union workers keep on building them, but the outsourcing has gotten so out of hand, the company has virtually lost complete control of the product they build. One hand is not talking to the other, and the execs keep pinching pennies in every aspect they can to increase profits. Now this game is directly affecting the actual customers, and that is where the top brass needs to sit down, and have a very serious look in the mirror. This "too big to fail" game the top brass is playing will eventually end Boeing. The company is in a direct path of complete destruction. The company is NOT healthy. And I saw someone mention the stock still doing okay..... That's what got this disaster started in the first place! I can show you a shitload of stock certificates from some of the big boy airlines that are long history, and the paper they are printed on aren't worth a penny.

A very serious makeover is in dire needs, and if it does not happen, Boeing will ultimately die. The MAX disaster alone may be the precursor. When Boeing rolled out a shell of a 787, that too was a massive warning sign. Promises have been broken so many times with this company in the last 10 years. And we must never forget!!! The only reason Boeing is still in business is because of it's customers. Boeing needs to also consider it's very own employees customers too. The atmosphere in those factories are dismal, and morale has been rock bottom since the top brass has ruled with iron fists. Boeing is a complete mess, and where they go from here is the deciding factor of the companies future. I really hope they can change this pattern. Alot of the outsourcing has to be brought back in house, and Boeing needs to get back to what it once was... One of the best plane makers ever.


Oh brother. :roll:


BTW....Anyone consider that the issue is with FAA inspectors and poor oversight, potentially criminal, not Boeing? Seems odd to jump from Renton to Charleston...


Sadly, it's not so much odd to jump from Charleston to Renton. And yes, the FAA does indeed have some answers to provide. From my understanding, the FAA handed Boeing alot of leeway, and that just isn't kosher. I'm still shocked at how this is all unfolding. Both the FAA and Boeing should have heads rolling over this.
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MaksFly
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:03 am

What was interesting from that Boeing expose video is that reminder once again of how Boeing lobbyists, aka, former FAA executives who retired and are now working for Boeing, have pushed for more and more control for Boeing to self certify.... and here we are two crashes later showing issues with that.

Without a doubt, Boeing is America.... so it does beg the question... how, if any way, will Boeing be punished in order to prevent issues.

Too big to fail? Precisely.... and that is a problem.

No private entity should be too big to fail.
 
jubguy3
Posts: 514
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:52 am

I don’t think too big to fail necessarily means that companies are literally too big to fail - it’s just that those companies who are “too big to fail” are so deeply entrenched within the government and economy that when they begin to fail, they take large amounts of the economy down with them, making it a lot harder for them to fail in the first place. I’m thinking of companies like Lehman Brothers, GM, AIG, etc. They all fell with disastrous consequences to the global economy, and only one of them still exists today. I don’t think any administration would let Boeing fail. That would be a political suicide. It’s just disappointing that companies can become so successful that it doesn’t matter if they are mismanaged or not. I see a lot of parallels in corporate culture of GM and Boeing, at least what we see from the outside in.

I’m worried that the thing holding Boeing up right now is the otherwise excellent performance of the economy right now. When we inevitably come to the downward slope of this phase in the economy, if the “Boeing question” doesn’t resolve itself and manufacturing sectors continue to (also inevitably) suffer, I could see that as being fatal enough to Boeing to either kill it or require government intervention.
Last edited by jubguy3 on Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Antarius
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:53 am

F9Animal wrote:
EK77WNH wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

You nailed it. The pro-union Boeing employees and press were after Charleston before the first employee was even hired.


Pay no attention to those Union-built MAX aircraft and those KC-46s with FOD left behind by those ‘workers.’ Roll eyes.


You are correct. Let's shift away for a moment from union and non union here. Let's look at the culture that has been brought by the leadership. Rush!!! Hurry!!! Instead of 30 737's a month, let's slam out 70! Increase those profits. The execs have spent more time at a table brainstorming ideas to increase that profit margin, not even considering the consequences that could come from a rush job. It is evident that the MAX was NOT ready, and it reminds me of the day that shell of a plane rolled off the assembly line in the 2000's.

This actually goes back to the day they rolled out that 787, and made a huge deal about it. Promises made that the plane was going to be on time. It was just a shell! Held together by fasteners that were not even legit. That was shoddy, and that was not the fault of the factory workers. That should have been sending warning bells going off all over the industry. You and I both know the 787 nearly failed. Charleston was rushed, and Boeing couldn't get people hired off the streets fast enough. That implementation was a disaster too.

This is NOT the Boeing we all knew. A company that stood behind it's product, putting out quality before quantity. The execs shoved lean manufacturing so hard, it caused the beginning of the mess. Then Boeing started it's process of reducing it's QA and engineer staff, outsourcing it to other places.

Reality is this. This is not the ultimate finger pointing at the unions or non union factory workers. Those men and women are trying to adapt to this new rushed culture. When you are rushed, mistakes will happen. This is why I have not blamed those factory workers, and pointed my torch at the top brass. I don't give a darn about the stock price at this point. And yes, I am a stock holder! What I care about is the urgent need to revamp the entire program from top to bottom. New blood needs to come in at the executive levels just as a start. In fact, I believe production needs to halt for a few days as these factory workers can actually point out the areas that need serious fixes. If that means lowering the rate of production until they get a better grip on things, then so be it.

This isn't a production or union problem. This is a culture problem. Back in the days, those factory workers had a voice and were not afraid to speak up when there were issues. Nowadays, they are backed into a corner and told to how they will do the work. If that culture continues, I am confident the end of Boeing will come. Those stock certificates I hold will be worth nothing. And if I am anti Boeing, I would have sold my stock after the first MAX crash.

And I think a majority of us want to see Boeing be successful. Until then, I think every single one of us should be concerned about this companies future. I mean look at us!! Blaming unions for this? Really? Blaming non union workers for this? Really? It's just too damned easy to point fingers, but those fingers need to be pointed at that tower in Chicago.


The problem was the design of MCAS, not the production rate. The screwed up badly on the design.

Your yelling about making 70 aircraft vs 30 and ending outsourcing tips your hand though and shows your real motives.
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TTailedTiger
Posts: 1255
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:57 am

Antarius wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
EK77WNH wrote:

Pay no attention to those Union-built MAX aircraft and those KC-46s with FOD left behind by those ‘workers.’ Roll eyes.


You are correct. Let's shift away for a moment from union and non union here. Let's look at the culture that has been brought by the leadership. Rush!!! Hurry!!! Instead of 30 737's a month, let's slam out 70! Increase those profits. The execs have spent more time at a table brainstorming ideas to increase that profit margin, not even considering the consequences that could come from a rush job. It is evident that the MAX was NOT ready, and it reminds me of the day that shell of a plane rolled off the assembly line in the 2000's.

This actually goes back to the day they rolled out that 787, and made a huge deal about it. Promises made that the plane was going to be on time. It was just a shell! Held together by fasteners that were not even legit. That was shoddy, and that was not the fault of the factory workers. That should have been sending warning bells going off all over the industry. You and I both know the 787 nearly failed. Charleston was rushed, and Boeing couldn't get people hired off the streets fast enough. That implementation was a disaster too.

This is NOT the Boeing we all knew. A company that stood behind it's product, putting out quality before quantity. The execs shoved lean manufacturing so hard, it caused the beginning of the mess. Then Boeing started it's process of reducing it's QA and engineer staff, outsourcing it to other places.

Reality is this. This is not the ultimate finger pointing at the unions or non union factory workers. Those men and women are trying to adapt to this new rushed culture. When you are rushed, mistakes will happen. This is why I have not blamed those factory workers, and pointed my torch at the top brass. I don't give a darn about the stock price at this point. And yes, I am a stock holder! What I care about is the urgent need to revamp the entire program from top to bottom. New blood needs to come in at the executive levels just as a start. In fact, I believe production needs to halt for a few days as these factory workers can actually point out the areas that need serious fixes. If that means lowering the rate of production until they get a better grip on things, then so be it.

This isn't a production or union problem. This is a culture problem. Back in the days, those factory workers had a voice and were not afraid to speak up when there were issues. Nowadays, they are backed into a corner and told to how they will do the work. If that culture continues, I am confident the end of Boeing will come. Those stock certificates I hold will be worth nothing. And if I am anti Boeing, I would have sold my stock after the first MAX crash.

And I think a majority of us want to see Boeing be successful. Until then, I think every single one of us should be concerned about this companies future. I mean look at us!! Blaming unions for this? Really? Blaming non union workers for this? Really? It's just too damned easy to point fingers, but those fingers need to be pointed at that tower in Chicago.


The problem was the design of MCAS, not the production rate. The screwed up badly on the design.

Your yelling about making 70 aircraft vs 30 and ending outsourcing tips your hand though and shows your real motives.


Why weren't you this upset about the A330 ADIRU? They never have figured out why the ADIRU went psycho on Qantas 72. Had they been at a lower altitude when it occurred it would have ended very badly.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1554
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:04 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Antarius wrote:
F9Animal wrote:

You are correct. Let's shift away for a moment from union and non union here. Let's look at the culture that has been brought by the leadership. Rush!!! Hurry!!! Instead of 30 737's a month, let's slam out 70! Increase those profits. The execs have spent more time at a table brainstorming ideas to increase that profit margin, not even considering the consequences that could come from a rush job. It is evident that the MAX was NOT ready, and it reminds me of the day that shell of a plane rolled off the assembly line in the 2000's.

This actually goes back to the day they rolled out that 787, and made a huge deal about it. Promises made that the plane was going to be on time. It was just a shell! Held together by fasteners that were not even legit. That was shoddy, and that was not the fault of the factory workers. That should have been sending warning bells going off all over the industry. You and I both know the 787 nearly failed. Charleston was rushed, and Boeing couldn't get people hired off the streets fast enough. That implementation was a disaster too.

This is NOT the Boeing we all knew. A company that stood behind it's product, putting out quality before quantity. The execs shoved lean manufacturing so hard, it caused the beginning of the mess. Then Boeing started it's process of reducing it's QA and engineer staff, outsourcing it to other places.

Reality is this. This is not the ultimate finger pointing at the unions or non union factory workers. Those men and women are trying to adapt to this new rushed culture. When you are rushed, mistakes will happen. This is why I have not blamed those factory workers, and pointed my torch at the top brass. I don't give a darn about the stock price at this point. And yes, I am a stock holder! What I care about is the urgent need to revamp the entire program from top to bottom. New blood needs to come in at the executive levels just as a start. In fact, I believe production needs to halt for a few days as these factory workers can actually point out the areas that need serious fixes. If that means lowering the rate of production until they get a better grip on things, then so be it.

This isn't a production or union problem. This is a culture problem. Back in the days, those factory workers had a voice and were not afraid to speak up when there were issues. Nowadays, they are backed into a corner and told to how they will do the work. If that culture continues, I am confident the end of Boeing will come. Those stock certificates I hold will be worth nothing. And if I am anti Boeing, I would have sold my stock after the first MAX crash.

And I think a majority of us want to see Boeing be successful. Until then, I think every single one of us should be concerned about this companies future. I mean look at us!! Blaming unions for this? Really? Blaming non union workers for this? Really? It's just too damned easy to point fingers, but those fingers need to be pointed at that tower in Chicago.


The problem was the design of MCAS, not the production rate. The screwed up badly on the design.

Your yelling about making 70 aircraft vs 30 and ending outsourcing tips your hand though and shows your real motives.


Why weren't you this upset about the A330 ADIRU? They never have figured out why the ADIRU went psycho on Qantas 72. Had they been at a lower altitude when it occurred it would have ended very badly.


Is that aimed at me? If so, I dont think any other incident grows or diminishes the level of mess Boeing made with MCAS. They screwed up - what Airbus, Embraer, Antonov or Gulfstream did or did not do is irrelevant.

My broader point was that F9Animal is conflating two completely different points intentionally. His/her anti-outsourcing, anti-CHS points are being blended in with the safety issues because fear sells.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
User avatar
Super80Fan
Posts: 1525
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:14 am

Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Siteuror

Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:59 am

speedbird52 wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

Yup, that's all that matters to companies in the US. As long as their stock & bottom line are doing fine, safety, employee well-being, customer well-being, and sustainability doesn't matter or can go out the window completely.


So you think companies in other countries *aren't* focused on their stock and bottom line... I feel very sorry for you if that's the case.

Back in the Real World, those things are all connected. "Employee well-being" just isn't as easy to measure as profit/stock levels.

I think he might be implying that in other countries the two often come hand in hand rather than in conflict


This.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1394
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:40 am

So many of the posters here act like this is the first time a company screwed up. Yes, errors were made by McN in particular, that Alan M probably would have not done. But Alan M went on to change Ford, keeping it out of a scandal that consumed many of the big auto companies. Intentional cheating at the highest level against emissions regulations. The list of just some of the lower quality companies that were busted. Oh, Takata listed is for its own scandal. Data from Wiki

Volkswagen
The Volkswagen emissions scandal, also known as Dieselgate[20] or Emissionsgate,[21] began in September 2015, when the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) issued a notice of violation of the Clean Air Act to German automaker Volkswagen Group. The agency had found that Volkswagen had intentionally programmed turbocharged direct injection (TDI) diesel engines to activate their emissions controls only during laboratory emissions testing which caused the vehicles' NO
x output to meet US standards during regulatory testing, but emit up to 40 times more NO
x in real-world driving.[22] Volkswagen deployed this programming software in about eleven million cars worldwide, including 500,000 in the United States, in model years 2009 through 2015.


Renault
Since 2015, Renault has been investigated by the French Direction générale de la concurrence, de la consommation et de la répression des fraudes (DGCCRF). Their 2017 report states “the suspicion of the installation of a ‘fraudulent device’ which specifically modifies the functioning of the engine to reduce emissions of NOx (nitrogen oxides) in conditions specific to the regulatory tests.” It affects 900,000 vehicles. Renault Captur and Clio IV exceeded the threshold for carbon dioxide emissions by 377% and 305%.


Fiat Chrysler
As part of a January 2019 settlement, Fiat Chrysler will recall and repair approximately 100,000 automobiles equipped with a 3.0-liter V6 EcoDiesel engine having a prohibited defeat device, pay $311 million in total civil penalties to US regulators and CARB, pay $72.5 million for state civil penalties, implement corporate governance reforms, and pay $33.5 million to mitigate excess pollution. The company will also pay affected consumers up to $280 million and offer extended warranties on such vehicles worth $105 million. The total value of the settlement is worth about $800 million, though FCA did not admit liability, and it did not resolve an ongoing criminal investigation.


Mercedes
From 2016 to 2018, there were increasingly specific allegations of defeat devices in the control software for Mercedes U.S. cars. In Feb 2018, German newspaper Bild am Sonntag reported that US authorities investigating Mercedes have discovered that its vehicles are equipped with illegal software to help them pass United States' stringent emission tests. The claimed defeat devices include a Bit 15 mode to switch off emissions control after 16 miles of driving (the length of an official U.S. emissions test), and Slipguard which tries to directly determine if the car is being tested based on speed and acceleration profiles.


As of May 19, 2015, Takata is now responsible for the largest auto recall in history. Takata has already recalled 40 million vehicles across 12 vehicle brands for "Airbags that could explode and potentially send shrapnel into the face and body of both the driver and front seat passenger".[24] This recall will bring the number up to about 53 million automobiles eligible for this recall. In November 2015, Takata was fined $200 million ($70 million paid upfront) by U.S. federal regulators in response to Takata's admission of a fault.[25] Toyota, Mazda and Honda have said that they will not use ammonium nitrate-based inflators.


Around a decade ago there was a huge problem with aircraft seats with faked test and QC reports. I couldn't recall the company and the search didn't get good results. Also a Japanese steel company had to confess to faking all the production test reports from several plants. Just a typical day.
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:49 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
So many of the posters here act like this is the first time a company screwed up. Yes, errors were made by McN in particular, that Alan M probably would have not done. But Alan M went on to change Ford, keeping it out of a scandal that consumed many of the big auto companies. Intentional cheating at the highest level against emissions regulations. The list of just some of the lower quality companies that were busted. Oh, Takata listed is for its own scandal. Data from Wiki

Volkswagen
The Volkswagen emissions scandal, also known as Dieselgate[20] or Emissionsgate,[21] began in September 2015, when the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) issued a notice of violation of the Clean Air Act to German automaker Volkswagen Group. The agency had found that Volkswagen had intentionally programmed turbocharged direct injection (TDI) diesel engines to activate their emissions controls only during laboratory emissions testing which caused the vehicles' NO
x output to meet US standards during regulatory testing, but emit up to 40 times more NO
x in real-world driving.[22] Volkswagen deployed this programming software in about eleven million cars worldwide, including 500,000 in the United States, in model years 2009 through 2015.


Renault
Since 2015, Renault has been investigated by the French Direction générale de la concurrence, de la consommation et de la répression des fraudes (DGCCRF). Their 2017 report states “the suspicion of the installation of a ‘fraudulent device’ which specifically modifies the functioning of the engine to reduce emissions of NOx (nitrogen oxides) in conditions specific to the regulatory tests.” It affects 900,000 vehicles. Renault Captur and Clio IV exceeded the threshold for carbon dioxide emissions by 377% and 305%.


Fiat Chrysler
As part of a January 2019 settlement, Fiat Chrysler will recall and repair approximately 100,000 automobiles equipped with a 3.0-liter V6 EcoDiesel engine having a prohibited defeat device, pay $311 million in total civil penalties to US regulators and CARB, pay $72.5 million for state civil penalties, implement corporate governance reforms, and pay $33.5 million to mitigate excess pollution. The company will also pay affected consumers up to $280 million and offer extended warranties on such vehicles worth $105 million. The total value of the settlement is worth about $800 million, though FCA did not admit liability, and it did not resolve an ongoing criminal investigation.


Mercedes
From 2016 to 2018, there were increasingly specific allegations of defeat devices in the control software for Mercedes U.S. cars. In Feb 2018, German newspaper Bild am Sonntag reported that US authorities investigating Mercedes have discovered that its vehicles are equipped with illegal software to help them pass United States' stringent emission tests. The claimed defeat devices include a Bit 15 mode to switch off emissions control after 16 miles of driving (the length of an official U.S. emissions test), and Slipguard which tries to directly determine if the car is being tested based on speed and acceleration profiles.


As of May 19, 2015, Takata is now responsible for the largest auto recall in history. Takata has already recalled 40 million vehicles across 12 vehicle brands for "Airbags that could explode and potentially send shrapnel into the face and body of both the driver and front seat passenger".[24] This recall will bring the number up to about 53 million automobiles eligible for this recall. In November 2015, Takata was fined $200 million ($70 million paid upfront) by U.S. federal regulators in response to Takata's admission of a fault.[25] Toyota, Mazda and Honda have said that they will not use ammonium nitrate-based inflators.


Around a decade ago there was a huge problem with aircraft seats with faked test and QC reports. I couldn't recall the company and the search didn't get good results. Also a Japanese steel company had to confess to faking all the production test reports from several plants. Just a typical day.


Koito?
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1394
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:00 am

1989worstyear wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
So many of the posters here act like this is the first time a company screwed up. Yes, errors were made by McN in particular, that Alan M probably would have not done. But Alan M went on to change Ford, keeping it out of a scandal that consumed many of the big auto companies. Intentional cheating at the highest level against emissions regulations. The list of just some of the lower quality companies that were busted. Oh, Takata listed is for its own scandal. Data from Wiki

Volkswagen
The Volkswagen emissions scandal, also known as Dieselgate[20] or Emissionsgate,[21] began in September 2015, when the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) issued a notice of violation of the Clean Air Act to German automaker Volkswagen Group. The agency had found that Volkswagen had intentionally programmed turbocharged direct injection (TDI) diesel engines to activate their emissions controls only during laboratory emissions testing which caused the vehicles' NO
x output to meet US standards during regulatory testing, but emit up to 40 times more NO
x in real-world driving.[22] Volkswagen deployed this programming software in about eleven million cars worldwide, including 500,000 in the United States, in model years 2009 through 2015.


Renault
Since 2015, Renault has been investigated by the French Direction générale de la concurrence, de la consommation et de la répression des fraudes (DGCCRF). Their 2017 report states “the suspicion of the installation of a ‘fraudulent device’ which specifically modifies the functioning of the engine to reduce emissions of NOx (nitrogen oxides) in conditions specific to the regulatory tests.” It affects 900,000 vehicles. Renault Captur and Clio IV exceeded the threshold for carbon dioxide emissions by 377% and 305%.


Fiat Chrysler
As part of a January 2019 settlement, Fiat Chrysler will recall and repair approximately 100,000 automobiles equipped with a 3.0-liter V6 EcoDiesel engine having a prohibited defeat device, pay $311 million in total civil penalties to US regulators and CARB, pay $72.5 million for state civil penalties, implement corporate governance reforms, and pay $33.5 million to mitigate excess pollution. The company will also pay affected consumers up to $280 million and offer extended warranties on such vehicles worth $105 million. The total value of the settlement is worth about $800 million, though FCA did not admit liability, and it did not resolve an ongoing criminal investigation.


Mercedes
From 2016 to 2018, there were increasingly specific allegations of defeat devices in the control software for Mercedes U.S. cars. In Feb 2018, German newspaper Bild am Sonntag reported that US authorities investigating Mercedes have discovered that its vehicles are equipped with illegal software to help them pass United States' stringent emission tests. The claimed defeat devices include a Bit 15 mode to switch off emissions control after 16 miles of driving (the length of an official U.S. emissions test), and Slipguard which tries to directly determine if the car is being tested based on speed and acceleration profiles.


As of May 19, 2015, Takata is now responsible for the largest auto recall in history. Takata has already recalled 40 million vehicles across 12 vehicle brands for "Airbags that could explode and potentially send shrapnel into the face and body of both the driver and front seat passenger".[24] This recall will bring the number up to about 53 million automobiles eligible for this recall. In November 2015, Takata was fined $200 million ($70 million paid upfront) by U.S. federal regulators in response to Takata's admission of a fault.[25] Toyota, Mazda and Honda have said that they will not use ammonium nitrate-based inflators.


Around a decade ago there was a huge problem with aircraft seats with faked test and QC reports. I couldn't recall the company and the search didn't get good results. Also a Japanese steel company had to confess to faking all the production test reports from several plants. Just a typical day.


Koito?


That was it. Thanks

In February 2010, Koito Industries faced a controversy with the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport of Japan regarding its airline seats. The company was allegedly involved in a seat test falsification, claiming that they omitted part of a test process to test airline seats and used figures from past tests. Koito claimed that they did this because of "heavy number of orders coming and tight scheduling." The problem affected 150,000 seats among over 1,000 Airbus and Boeing planes owned by 32 airlines in 24 countries, causing delays to some aircraft deliveries such as All Nippon Airways' new Inspiration of Japan seats, particularly the premium economy seats.

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