acjbbj
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:02 am

MaksFly wrote:
What was interesting from that Boeing expose video is that reminder once again of how Boeing lobbyists, aka, former FAA executives who retired and are now working for Boeing, have pushed for more and more control for Boeing to self certify.... and here we are two crashes later showing issues with that.

Without a doubt, Boeing is America.... so it does beg the question... how, if any way, will Boeing be punished in order to prevent issues.

Too big to fail? Precisely.... and that is a problem.

No private entity should be too big to fail.

That's because THERE IS LITERALLY NO SUCH THING AS "TOO BIG TO FAIL!!"
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TheRedBaron
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:40 am

Has anyone seen the Al jazera report on Boeing and the 787. Granted it has a lot of exageration, but the hidden camera and the employees talking about QC is really frightening...

Best Regards
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Francoflier
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:40 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Why weren't you this upset about the A330 ADIRU? They never have figured out why the ADIRU went psycho on Qantas 72. Had they been at a lower altitude when it occurred it would have ended very badly.


You're not the first BA hardcore defender to try and deflect towards Airbus (or, as it happens, Northrop Grumman) and QF72.
If you want to go into the details of both design processes and failure modes and compare them, then please do. I believe, however, that you probably would not like the results of that comparison...
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ITB
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:47 am

An article published in late May by the New York Times details, to some extent, why the F.A.A. initiated its investigation of Boeing's Charleston plant. Here's the pertinent quotes:

(1) "The memo [F.A.A. internal memo] revealed that since September, the regulator had investigated and confirmed three safety complaints made by factory employees.

The bracketed info is mine and has been added for clarity. The key words in the above are "confirmed" and "safety." It appears the F.A.A. is taking a hard look whether safety, more precisely the safety of the B787, was compromised in some sort of way by management or manufacturing practices.

(2) "The F.A.A. is also looking into a claim that as recently as late March, a worker at the plant was pressured to sign off on work related to a jet’s airworthiness."

Wow. It seems a worker apparently had significant reservations about some aspect of the manufacturing process that pertained, in some way, to airworthiness, complained about it, but was told to sign off on it nonetheless. This is a very serious allegation and is probably what got the ball rolling on the investigation.

As many of you already know, the top executive who headed Boeing's Charleston plant left the company soon after news reports emerged detailing shoddy workmanship and weak management oversight. As usual, there's probably more to the story, particularly if the F.A.A. brought the "pressure" complaint mentioned above to the attention of top execs in Chicago and started asking probing questions.

And, on another matter, let's bear in mind the investigation into the two B737 crashes is a criminal inquiry. That means some people at Boeing might be facing time behind bars if enough evidence can be uncovered to bring indictments. Probably won't happen, unless some smoking gun emerges, but I imagine a good number of Boeing people are already lawyered up.

Link: NYT article "A Top Executive at Boeing’s Troubled South Carolina Plant Is Out" (May 22, 2019) https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/22/busi ... ogin-email

If the link doesn't work, just search Google, and it should pop up.
Last edited by ITB on Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:51 am

TheRedBaron wrote:
Has anyone seen the Al jazera report on Boeing and the 787. Granted it has a lot of exageration, but the hidden camera and the employees talking about QC is really frightening...

Best Regards
TRB


Yes I have. And like pretty much all documentaries, it was extremely biased. Find a news organization with no bias and then let's talk.

That documentary about regional airline pilots was just as bad. The most experienced mainline captains are the ones who have killed the most people.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Siteuror

Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:53 am

ikolkyo wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
Boeing is a company in crisis. I hate to say it but their survival as a leading commercial aircraft manufacturer is in jeopardy. The drip drip of bad news is killing them.


I was saying this for 20 years. While I have often defended Boeing here, truth is the company has been so poorly managed for the past 22 years, it’s despicable.

I could tell many stories.


The failure aspect of McDonnell Douglas is really shining through currently.

You’re right about McDD being a poison to Boeing, but Boeing has made some big mistakes before they joined such as trying to deny the 737 PCU issue as much as they could or the 747 and it’s self opening cargo doors. However we are talking about the 787 which does have a history of being meddled with by the McDD stupidity, but McDD mostly seemed to poison more their business sense as in what planes they should make vs what they shouldn’t.
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:01 am

caljn wrote:
The article about the South Carolina facility reads like a GM plant in the '70's.
Ultimately I believe whatever the issue is it is not serious, as Boeing is (rightfully) under a microscope at the moment. And I'm getting on a UA 787-10 this week LAX-EWR again...it is the best transcon ride out there.


Exactly my first thought while reading the Seattle Times article, sounds like Lordstown, Ohio GM assembly in the 70s, building the Chevrolet Vega.
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:00 am

Francoflier wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Why weren't you this upset about the A330 ADIRU? They never have figured out why the ADIRU went psycho on Qantas 72. Had they been at a lower altitude when it occurred it would have ended very badly.


You're not the first BA hardcore defender to try and deflect towards Airbus (or, as it happens, Northrop Grumman) and QF72.
If you want to go into the details of both design processes and failure modes and compare them, then please do. I believe, however, that you probably would not like the results of that comparison...


You make a very good point. It would be worth comparing the MAX experience to QF 72 in terms of..

The rigour of the design process
The rigour of the verification process
The probability of failure
The randomness of the event
The response by Airbus in terms of the level of onward training and communication
The outcome of the second event on QF71 and how it was dealt with
The requirement (if any) to make fundamental changes to the design or control system architecture of the type.

to see if the comparison really does what the deflectors hope it will.
Would make for an interesting thread.

Rgds
 
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:57 pm

Chainsaw Al impressed CEOs around the world. Stock price is the ultimate god. At the other extreme are companies which exist only to make a product the founders adore, and struggle to keep the bottom line black. Read Astuteman above. Airbus was founded to make planes, and has struggled to keep the bottom line black (he may not agree with that LOL).

Boeing no longer exists to make planes. Their only responsibility according to free market fundamentalists (their god is a POS) is return to stockholders. The Boeing I knew as a child, as I have read in Sutter may be dead. I hope not.
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WayexTDI
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:03 pm

jubguy3 wrote:
I don’t think too big to fail necessarily means that companies are literally too big to fail - it’s just that those companies who are “too big to fail” are so deeply entrenched within the government and economy that when they begin to fail, they take large amounts of the economy down with them, making it a lot harder for them to fail in the first place. I’m thinking of companies like Lehman Brothers, GM, AIG, etc. They all fell with disastrous consequences to the global economy, and only one of them still exists today. I don’t think any administration would let Boeing fail. That would be a political suicide. It’s just disappointing that companies can become so successful that it doesn’t matter if they are mismanaged or not. I see a lot of parallels in corporate culture of GM and Boeing, at least what we see from the outside in.

I’m worried that the thing holding Boeing up right now is the otherwise excellent performance of the economy right now. When we inevitably come to the downward slope of this phase in the economy, if the “Boeing question” doesn’t resolve itself and manufacturing sectors continue to (also inevitably) suffer, I could see that as being fatal enough to Boeing to either kill it or require government intervention.

That's exactly what "too big to fail" means: if such a company fails, the ripple effect would dramatic on the economics of a country that said country will not allow it to fail and will bail it out.
 
EK77WNH
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:41 pm

Let's not forget that Boeing Seattle workers don't come off looking like saints either, with the FOD discoveries grinding KC-46 deliveries to a halt. Glass houses, and all that stuff...
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sxf24
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:20 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Chainsaw Al impressed CEOs around the world. Stock price is the ultimate god. At the other extreme are companies which exist only to make a product the founders adore, and struggle to keep the bottom line black. Read Astuteman above. Airbus was founded to make planes, and has struggled to keep the bottom line black (he may not agree with that LOL).

Boeing no longer exists to make planes. Their only responsibility according to free market fundamentalists (their god is a POS) is return to stockholders. The Boeing I knew as a child, as I have read in Sutter may be dead. I hope not.


This is the dumbest thing I’ve read (today).

There are two questions you need to consider:

First, who owns Boeing?
Second, if Boeing is not making planes, how does it make money to pay employees and suppliers, not to mention provide returns to its owners?
 
SEU
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:35 pm

DL717 wrote:
SEU wrote:
DL717 wrote:

The FAA is responsible for certification of aircraft, whether they pass some responsibility to the company or not. The buck stops with them. It's not only possible, its probable there is an issue within the FAA. There has been massive turnover at all levels of the FAA in recent years.


I have to disagree with you - yes FAA needs to answer questions as to why they certified an aircraft, which in this day and age, should never have been allowed to fly passengers, the "buck" doesnt stop with them. It should never have passed from Boeing to FAA in the first place.


Yes. It does stop with the FAA. They oversee the design and certification. It makes more sense that some FAA inspectors migrated between two assembly facilities, not workers. If any oversight in the deign and certification was handed over to Boeing, it still falls on the FAA. Do you really think the FAA just stands around outside a hangar waiting for roll-out? If so, you don't know much about the process at all.


Ok so Boeing is faultless - you completely mis-read what I put.
 
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:29 pm

Francoflier wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Why weren't you this upset about the A330 ADIRU? They never have figured out why the ADIRU went psycho on Qantas 72. Had they been at a lower altitude when it occurred it would have ended very badly.


You're not the first BA hardcore defender to try and deflect towards Airbus (or, as it happens, Northrop Grumman) and QF72.
If you want to go into the details of both design processes and failure modes and compare them, then please do. I believe, however, that you probably would not like the results of that comparison...


It is a waste of time. Lets assume, for fun, that Airbus screwed up exactly the same amount. Does that affect whether Boeing screwed up? No. Does it mean Boeing is allowed to screw up? No. So talking about A in this case is, 100% pointless.
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:14 pm

Normally I am a Boeing cheerleader, but one of the posts I read on here reminded me of how badly one former CEO thought of his employees. I hope at the very least they fire everyone who makes over $500,000 a year and start fresh. Maybe get some top brass Millenials or something. They have to do something different.

And honestly, I see a lot of the same mistakes happening in my company.
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:11 pm

If any company sees making superior products only as a means of making money it will always be a second rate company. Boeing at this point is second rate - 3 out of 4 (actually 4 out of 5 if you include the 747) of their products are not selling, or just barely selling.
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LDRA
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:40 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
If any company sees making superior products only as a means of making money it will always be a second rate company. Boeing at this point is second rate - 3 out of 4 (actually 4 out of 5 if you include the 747) of their products are not selling, or just barely selling.

That is not true. Boeing effectively have no competition. Airbus narrow body production capacity is pretty booked. So airlines will come to Boeing wanting to buy Max. Max literally sells itself, same to A320 and to an extent A220
 
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:27 pm

Antarius wrote:
I dont think any other incident grows or diminishes the level of mess Boeing made with MCAS. They screwed up - what Airbus, Embraer, Antonov or Gulfstream did or did not do is irrelevant.


It's just deflective whataboutism.
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:10 pm

EK77WNH wrote:
Let's not forget that Boeing Seattle workers don't come off looking like saints either, with the FOD discoveries grinding KC-46 deliveries to a halt. Glass houses, and all that stuff...


This isn't a work group or union problem. It's a culture problem. It started at the very top! Everything the top brass has done in the last several years has really trickled down to the bottom. Everything is rushed now, and when you rush... Mistakes will happen. I remember when planes didn't leave a factory until the plane was looked over with a fine tooth comb before it's first flight. It was double if not triple checked. This is where the outsourcing of QA really shines. Or, the reduction of QA. This problem plagues the entire company right now, and it shows big time. Like I have said from the start!!! Cheap and airplanes are NOT a good combo. The top brass just needs to suck it up, and invest those profits and reserves to bring this company back to quality. A complete overhaul needs to start in Chicago, and work it's way down.
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F9Animal
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:16 pm

sxf24 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Chainsaw Al impressed CEOs around the world. Stock price is the ultimate god. At the other extreme are companies which exist only to make a product the founders adore, and struggle to keep the bottom line black. Read Astuteman above. Airbus was founded to make planes, and has struggled to keep the bottom line black (he may not agree with that LOL).

Boeing no longer exists to make planes. Their only responsibility according to free market fundamentalists (their god is a POS) is return to stockholders. The Boeing I knew as a child, as I have read in Sutter may be dead. I hope not.


This is the dumbest thing I’ve read (today).

There are two questions you need to consider:

First, who owns Boeing?
Second, if Boeing is not making planes, how does it make money to pay employees and suppliers, not to mention provide returns to its owners?


I think you are missing his point!! See, Boeing wants to ride itself of having it's own workers build these planes one day. They clearly intend to have it all built by vendors, and slap a Boeing sticker on it at the end of the day. Alot of companies have gone this route. As more and more of these planes are built, the less they are actually touched by someone from Boeing. It's obvious that this is the path the top brass envisioned. By the time we leave this world, I wouldn't be surprised if what I am saying was true.

Let's look at the engineers. Most that wore Boeing badges are long gone, replaced by $7 an hour contract workers in other countries. Boeing has saved millions upon millions by doing this. But, poop hit the fan, and well.... Gosh... All I am saying is, this isn't the old Boeing anymore. It's kind of sad.

And it's not just a Boeing problem anymore. We are seeing companies like Airbus testing these waters. Change is inevitable, and I guess we just need to accept it I suppose.
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kelval
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:21 pm

Revelation wrote:
Yes, Boeing clearly did what it took to make it happen, but you have to admit IAG's LOI for 200 737s was the shocker of PAS and the most shocking thing was that IAG would go along with it at this point in time.


Isn't a LOI not really constraining?
Can't Boeing and IAG walk away from this whenever they want?
To me, this announcement seems like a cheap shot ala "Chinese orders". IAG has a super sweet deal and can drop it anyday if Boeing doesn’t straighten their stuff, Boeing gets a lots of positive PR points.

It boggles me how everyone considers it like a firm order though.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:36 pm

kelval wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Yes, Boeing clearly did what it took to make it happen, but you have to admit IAG's LOI for 200 737s was the shocker of PAS and the most shocking thing was that IAG would go along with it at this point in time.


Isn't a LOI not really constraining?
Can't Boeing and IAG walk away from this whenever they want?
To me, this announcement seems like a cheap shot ala "Chinese orders". IAG has a super sweet deal and can drop it anyday if Boeing doesn’t straighten their stuff, Boeing gets a lots of positive PR points.

It boggles me how everyone considers it like a firm order though.

There's two sides to every coin.

If Boeing got a lot of PR points at PAS one would also have to say IAG took a PR hit, and Boeing too can walk away if they later decide the deal no longer makes sense from a financial point of view.

In that scenario Boeing got a bunch of PR points for free at a time they really needed them, with no future commitment.
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kelval
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:40 pm

That's what I was implying as well.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

It boggles me how everyone consider this LOI a deal while nothing's set in stone either way. For now it's just a cunning PR show, not much more than hot air. Isn't there anyone in the press industry to ponderate this? Ah well.
 
Antarius
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:38 pm

kelval wrote:
That's what I was implying as well.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

It boggles me how everyone consider this LOI a deal while nothing's set in stone either way. For now it's just a cunning PR show, not much more than hot air. Isn't there anyone in the press industry to ponderate this? Ah well.


Come on. Unless you hear otherwise, why would your default assumption be that this LOI is nothing? Yes, the LOI has an out clause, but people dont make a habit of wasting time with LOIs on things they dont want.

It is wishful thinking or denial to act like the odds arent HEAVILY in favor of an LOI going through.
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NYCVIE
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:47 pm

acjbbj wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
What was interesting from that Boeing expose video is that reminder once again of how Boeing lobbyists, aka, former FAA executives who retired and are now working for Boeing, have pushed for more and more control for Boeing to self certify.... and here we are two crashes later showing issues with that.

Without a doubt, Boeing is America.... so it does beg the question... how, if any way, will Boeing be punished in order to prevent issues.

Too big to fail? Precisely.... and that is a problem.

No private entity should be too big to fail.

That's because THERE IS LITERALLY NO SUCH THING AS "TOO BIG TO FAIL!!"


I would appreciate if you could elaborate on this because you keep mentioning it.

As another poster mentioned, it's not that Boeing literally cannot fail - of course they can. But if in a year Boeing literally has no money (not gonna happen but hypothetically), of course the US gov won't let that happen. In that aspect they are too big to fail because the federal government will not allow it to fail - they cannot afford that loss, especially politically.
 
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:58 pm

F9Animal wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Chainsaw Al impressed CEOs around the world. Stock price is the ultimate god. At the other extreme are companies which exist only to make a product the founders adore, and struggle to keep the bottom line black. Read Astuteman above. Airbus was founded to make planes, and has struggled to keep the bottom line black (he may not agree with that LOL).

Boeing no longer exists to make planes. Their only responsibility according to free market fundamentalists (their god is a POS) is return to stockholders. The Boeing I knew as a child, as I have read in Sutter may be dead. I hope not.


This is the dumbest thing I’ve read (today).

There are two questions you need to consider:

First, who owns Boeing?
Second, if Boeing is not making planes, how does it make money to pay employees and suppliers, not to mention provide returns to its owners?


I think you are missing his point!! See, Boeing wants to ride itself of having it's own workers build these planes one day. They clearly intend to have it all built by vendors, and slap a Boeing sticker on it at the end of the day. Alot of companies have gone this route. As more and more of these planes are built, the less they are actually touched by someone from Boeing. It's obvious that this is the path the top brass envisioned. By the time we leave this world, I wouldn't be surprised if what I am saying was true.

Let's look at the engineers. Most that wore Boeing badges are long gone, replaced by $7 an hour contract workers in other countries. Boeing has saved millions upon millions by doing this. But, poop hit the fan, and well.... Gosh... All I am saying is, this isn't the old Boeing anymore. It's kind of sad.

And it's not just a Boeing problem anymore. We are seeing companies like Airbus testing these waters. Change is inevitable, and I guess we just need to accept it I suppose.


I understand your sentiment, particularly considering your background as a former union represented employee. I don’t think your perspective is accurate. Boeing is bringing more production work in house and the engineering jobs being outsourced are on the IT side.
 
747megatop
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:34 pm

Jetty wrote:
This is not looking good right after publication of outsourcing critical software design to developing countries, too slow processors to handle MCAS 2.0 and the absence of the supposed to be delivered 787-10 at KL’s 100 year festivities. One can only hope that Boeing seriously rethinks their way of doing business.

Outsourced work of critical software is a very lame excuse. Granted that a bulk of the software was outsourced to Rockwell Collins (very much here in the USA and not any other country) https://www.kcrg.com/content/news/Avion ... 14011.html but is still a very lame excuse.

The 737 MAX fiasco is just a reflection of a very poorly and shoddily run company. Heads need to roll starting with the CEO, Board of directors and leadership on the FAA side of the house for letting this happen on their watch. Time for Boeing to admit that they got the design wrong on this lipstick on a pig that the 737 MAX is.
 
747megatop
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:50 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Yes I have. And like pretty much all documentaries, it was extremely biased. Find a news organization with no bias and then let's talk.

That's the part i love the most. When folks see something they don't like then they call it "media bias". The FBI doesn't quite agree with you - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ports-says

Either they are complete idiots with nothing else to do so they are taking on this investigation OR there is something concrete which is why they are investigating Boeing's 787 factory in Charleston.

An oh, let's not forget the trash on the tankers dished out by Boeing to Uncle SAM - https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... sh-boeing/ ; now, are you going to say both the media and Uncle Sam are biased?

Boeing has some serious problems

1) Trash in new tankers delivered to USAF.
2) 787 global grounding due to battery issues.
3) 2 737 Max crashes killing 300+ people followed by global grounding.
4) Major quality control issues in the Charleston 787 plant triggering the widening of an already ongoing FBI criminal investigation originally triggered by the 737 Max Crashes.

Did i miss anything? This what happens when a bunch of overly greedy businessmen put profits over everything else.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:52 pm

747megatop wrote:
Jetty wrote:
This is not looking good right after publication of outsourcing critical software design to developing countries, too slow processors to handle MCAS 2.0 and the absence of the supposed to be delivered 787-10 at KL’s 100 year festivities. One can only hope that Boeing seriously rethinks their way of doing business.

Outsourced work of critical software is a very lame excuse. Granted that a bulk of the software was outsourced to Rockwell Collins (very much here in the USA and not any other country) https://www.kcrg.com/content/news/Avion ... 14011.html but is still a very lame excuse.

The 737 MAX fiasco is just a reflection of a very poorly and shoddily run company. Heads need to roll starting with the CEO, Board of directors and leadership on the FAA side of the house for letting this happen on their watch. Time for Boeing to admit that they got the design wrong on this lipstick on a pig that the 737 MAX is.


There is a thread for that!
 
Checklist787
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:55 pm

747megatop wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Yes I have. And like pretty much all documentaries, it was extremely biased. Find a news organization with no bias and then let's talk.

That's the part i love the most. When folks see something they don't like then they call it "media bias". The FBI doesn't quite agree with you - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ports-says

Either they are complete idiots with nothing else to do so they are taking on this investigation OR there is something concrete which is why they are investigating Boeing's 787 factory in Charleston.

An oh, let's not forget the trash on the tankers dished out by Boeing to Uncle SAM - https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... sh-boeing/ ; now, are you going to say both the media and Uncle Sam are biased?

Boeing has some serious problems

1) Trash in new tankers delivered to USAF.
2) 787 global grounding due to battery issues.
3) 2 737 Max crashes killing 300+ people followed by global grounding.
4) Major quality control issues in the Charleston 787 plant triggering the widening of an already ongoing FBI criminal investigation originally triggered by the 737 Max Crashes.

Did i miss anything? This what happens when a bunch of overly greedy businessmen put profits over everything else.


"Sarcasm"
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1339
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:55 pm

747megatop wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Yes I have. And like pretty much all documentaries, it was extremely biased. Find a news organization with no bias and then let's talk.

That's the part i love the most. When folks see something they don't like then they call it "media bias". The FBI doesn't quite agree with you - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ports-says

Either they are complete idiots with nothing else to do so they are taking on this investigation OR there is something concrete which is why they are investigating Boeing's 787 factory in Charleston.

An oh, let's not forget the trash on the tankers dished out by Boeing to Uncle SAM - https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... sh-boeing/ ; now, are you going to say both the media and Uncle Sam are biased?

Boeing has some serious problems

1) Trash in new tankers delivered to USAF.
2) 787 global grounding due to battery issues.
3) 2 737 Max crashes killing 300+ people followed by global grounding.
4) Major quality control issues in the Charleston 787 plant triggering the widening of an already ongoing FBI criminal investigation originally triggered by the 737 Max Crashes.

Did i miss anything? This what happens when a bunch of overly greedy businessmen put profits over everything else.


You are so sure of yourself yet you didn't provide any evidence of criminal activity in Charleston.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3339
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:12 pm

747megatop wrote:
The 737 MAX fiasco is just a reflection of a very poorly and shoddily run company. Heads need to roll starting with the CEO, Board of directors and leadership on the FAA side of the house for letting this happen on their watch. Time for Boeing to admit that they got the design wrong on this lipstick on a pig that the 737 MAX is.


If a "very poorly and shoddily-run" company is the envy of the aircraft manufacturing world, what does that say about the management teams of its competitors?

When you're at the top, you have a lot of haters--legitimate and not. Boeing is under a microscope that no other company is under right now. If anything they've been vindicated thus far.
 
nikeherc
Posts: 658
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:05 am

Why don’t we wait and see if the knee jerk probes turn up any thing. Until then you guys are spouting wishful thinking and pure B.S.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
acjbbj
Posts: 310
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:09 am

NYCVIE wrote:
acjbbj wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
What was interesting from that Boeing expose video is that reminder once again of how Boeing lobbyists, aka, former FAA executives who retired and are now working for Boeing, have pushed for more and more control for Boeing to self certify.... and here we are two crashes later showing issues with that.

Without a doubt, Boeing is America.... so it does beg the question... how, if any way, will Boeing be punished in order to prevent issues.

Too big to fail? Precisely.... and that is a problem.

No private entity should be too big to fail.

That's because THERE IS LITERALLY NO SUCH THING AS "TOO BIG TO FAIL!!"


I would appreciate if you could elaborate on this because you keep mentioning it.

As another poster mentioned, it's not that Boeing literally cannot fail - of course they can. But if in a year Boeing literally has no money (not gonna happen but hypothetically), of course the US gov won't let that happen. In that aspect they are too big to fail because the federal government will not allow it to fail - they cannot afford that loss, especially politically.

Isn't it obvious? No matter how big a company gets, there is always a risk of going out of business.

As I've said countless times, why not let Boeing's name + font + commercial division (none of the management, half of BCA's employees) go to General Dynamics or Lockheed Martin? So that Boeing would be under new management and the 737 MAX would receive hardware and software updates by GD or Lockheed, in a timely fashion. That will allow Boeing to restore the public's confidence much faster. New company AND new management.
Douglas Aircraft Company
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Died: 23 May 2006 (Long Beach, CA), age 84 years 10 months 1 day
You will be missed.
 
nikeherc
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:12 am

Why don’t we wait and see if the knee jerk probes turn up any thing. Until then you guys are spouting wishful thinking and pure B.S.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
NYCVIE
Posts: 140
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:42 am

acjbbj wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:
acjbbj wrote:
That's because THERE IS LITERALLY NO SUCH THING AS "TOO BIG TO FAIL!!"


I would appreciate if you could elaborate on this because you keep mentioning it.

As another poster mentioned, it's not that Boeing literally cannot fail - of course they can. But if in a year Boeing literally has no money (not gonna happen but hypothetically), of course the US gov won't let that happen. In that aspect they are too big to fail because the federal government will not allow it to fail - they cannot afford that loss, especially politically.

Isn't it obvious? No matter how big a company gets, there is always a risk of going out of business.

As I've said countless times, why not let Boeing's name + font + commercial division (none of the management, half of BCA's employees) go to General Dynamics or Lockheed Martin? So that Boeing would be under new management and the 737 MAX would receive hardware and software updates by GD or Lockheed, in a timely fashion. That will allow Boeing to restore the public's confidence much faster. New company AND new management.


Ok that's basically what everyone is saying. Yes there is the risk of going out of business but the stakes are too high for gov't to allow Boeing to fail so they won't. What you're proposing is pretty far from reality - you're talking about an orderly split of a company with over 150,000 employees (and it seems like you mean quickly) and shipping off the operations so that one of two companies that haven't sold or developed a commercial aircraft in decades or ever. that'l work....
 
acjbbj
Posts: 310
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:55 am

NYCVIE wrote:
acjbbj wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:

I would appreciate if you could elaborate on this because you keep mentioning it.

As another poster mentioned, it's not that Boeing literally cannot fail - of course they can. But if in a year Boeing literally has no money (not gonna happen but hypothetically), of course the US gov won't let that happen. In that aspect they are too big to fail because the federal government will not allow it to fail - they cannot afford that loss, especially politically.

Isn't it obvious? No matter how big a company gets, there is always a risk of going out of business.

As I've said countless times, why not let Boeing's name + font + commercial division (none of the management, half of BCA's employees) go to General Dynamics or Lockheed Martin? So that Boeing would be under new management and the 737 MAX would receive hardware and software updates by GD or Lockheed, in a timely fashion. That will allow Boeing to restore the public's confidence much faster. New company AND new management.


Ok that's basically what everyone is saying. Yes there is the risk of going out of business but the stakes are too high for gov't to allow Boeing to fail so they won't. What you're proposing is pretty far from reality - you're talking about an orderly split of a company with over 150,000 employees (and it seems like you mean quickly) and shipping off the operations so that one of two companies that haven't sold or developed a commercial aircraft in decades or ever. that'l work....

The other half of the Commercial employees move to the new McDonnell-Douglas (or whomever) and they help the new company (based of Boeing's military division; all the Boeing military people stay at the division) go back into commercial aviation.

And a correction: Management would be restructured so that anyone responsible for Boeing's 737 fiasco would be fired. The others can stay and will be split.
Douglas Aircraft Company
Born: 22 July 1921 (Santa Monica, CA)
Died: 23 May 2006 (Long Beach, CA), age 84 years 10 months 1 day
You will be missed.
 
kalvado
Posts: 1880
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:07 am

acjbbj wrote:
Management would be restructured so that anyone responsible for Boeing's 737 fiasco would be fired. The others can stay and will be split.

Hunt for the guilty, punishment of the innocent, and reward for the uninvolved. Been there, seen that.
 
Etheereal
Posts: 332
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:44 am

Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Site

Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:43 am

acjbbj wrote:
There is NO such thing as "too big to fail."


Dont deny it, you're seeing the company that embodies it already: BCA.
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
nry
Posts: 110
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:53 am

I'm happy this is happening to Boeing. I will make sure I choose the MAX for domestic and 787 for international moving forward as these will be the most scrutinized commercial aircraft in a very long time.
B727, B737, B747, B757, B767, B777, B787, DC9/MD80, DC10, MD11
A319, A320, A321, A340 (surprisingly no A330 yet)
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ATR77, CRJ200, CRJ700, E145, E170, E175
 
gk23
Posts: 49
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:45 am

Jetty wrote:

This is not looking good right after publication of outsourcing critical software design to developing countries...


If you are referring to the recent Bloomberg article, it would be disingenuous to not point out that within the article itself it was stated that the contract companies did not work on the problematic MCAS software, and also that they had previously worked successfully on components of the 747-8 and Dreamliner.
 
acjbbj
Posts: 310
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:35 pm

nry wrote:
I'm happy this is happening to Boeing. I will make sure I choose the MAX for domestic and 787 for international moving forward as these will be the most scrutinized commercial aircraft in a very long time.

To be honest, you have a veey good point.
Etheereal wrote:
acjbbj wrote:
There is NO such thing as "too big to fail."

Dont deny it, you're seeing the company that embodies it already: BCA.

Nope. "Too big to fail" is nothing but a meaningless weasel word. And people know it.
kalvado wrote:
Hunt for the guilty, punishment of the innocent, and reward for the uninvolved. Been there, seen that.

r/woooosh
Douglas Aircraft Company
Born: 22 July 1921 (Santa Monica, CA)
Died: 23 May 2006 (Long Beach, CA), age 84 years 10 months 1 day
You will be missed.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Site

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:11 pm

enilria wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder how far into 2020 the 737MAX flies again. How long is it going to take just to rehab the pickled birds? I wonder if they stored them with the expectation it could be so long. It makes a big difference in terms of how they are stored and how much damage the storage does. The planes are meant to fly, they actually wear more poorly not flying.


The longer they sit, the longer it'll take to get them back into the air. It'll also be fascinating to gauge the load factors of MAX flights vs non-MAX on routes with multiple dailies.
 
Planetalk
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:37 pm

I'd suggest going and doing some reading about the research that's been done on the very interesting research that's been done on how sociopaths/pyschopaths disproportionately occupy the top positions in corporation. (and in politics for that matter too). Hardly surprising when you consider the kind of personality traits that tend to be rewarded in the corporate world.

Once you consider that, everything makes sense, especially the complete insincerity of Boeing and attempt to shift blame after the accidents. We've seen enough too know that their belated remorse is noting more than PR, these guys do not change, and Boeing will not change unless the top management does. It's really quite shocking someone who has overseen the culture that caused these accidents can keep their job, considering the minor indiscretions us minions can be fired for.

There really is something rotten there, and people are incredibly naive if they think the CEOs care as much as anyone about accidents killing people. The sad truth is, they probably don't. That's their personality, that's how they got where they are. As I say, there's research on this and it explains a lot about the world we live in. If you're a psychopath and born poor, you end up in jail, if you're a psychopath and born rich you end up a CEO (or perhaps president...)
 
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par13del
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:50 pm

If Boeing starts cleaning house, does the USA have sufficient local talent in the industry to replace all the staff that would be removed?
To implement the desires of senior executives, a lot of managers - senior and mid-level were deployed who share the principles and are all in on the implementation, so if 200 persons from the CEO down are let go in Chicago, thousands more have to be let go across the various sites, it is not impossible to believe that only at the supervisor level and below that you find employees who just do what they are told and are willing to shift immediately to a different work mindset. Workplace culture starts at the top and the way it filters down is through the management system.
So removing the CEO will not change anything in the short term since all below him are either believers or too heavily invested to pivot 90 or even 180 degrees. A whole scale clearing would only work if qualified or more importantly, knowledgeable resources are available to step in immediately.
So start at the top by changing the mindset which is the head honcho, then eliminate the arteries that are "clogged" with that thinking, then move on down the line, bring in retirees. Unfortunately, due to the outsourcing that took place decades ago, the suppliers who supply components can not have their staff raided since it would take years to bring those functions back in house, the 787 program shows the years delays getting production back in house.
I suspect it would be a couple thousand employees would have to go if the cultural problem has to be corrected as quickly as possible, if done over the long term, disgruntled management employee is just as bad as floor level employees. I am not saying it is impossible, just based on history, it is very difficult to change mindsets in the short term, there is now an industry of consultants whose job is to be hired by large companies to manage a cultural change.

Outsourcing works, it has been proven time and time again, increasing production to meet demand also works, returning funds to investors ensures that funds are available for new investments by up and coming inventors or persons with new ideas, the USA is up there in new start up and technologies for a reason, the funding is available. Robin Hood government attempting to spread the wealth around is a bottomless pit that tax payers continue to fund when government inefficiencies are allowed to go unchecked, we are still trying to find that perfect economic government.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to Alleged Shoddy 787 Siteuror

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:15 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

Yup, that's all that matters to companies in the US. As long as their stock & bottom line are doing fine, safety, employee well-being, customer well-being, and sustainability doesn't matter or can go out the window completely.


So you think companies in other countries *aren't* focused on their stock and bottom line... I feel very sorry for you if that's the case.

Back in the Real World, those things are all connected. "Employee well-being" just isn't as easy to measure as profit/stock levels.

I think he might be implying that in other countries the two often come hand in hand rather than in conflict


They come hand in hand at most U.S. companies too. The only exception I can think of is unionized work forces. In the last 40-50 years, there's been a "rush to the bottom" greed mentality in many unions. Many would rather risk seeing their company shut down than work together to come to a solution or agreement that benefits all. That's unfortunate in many ways, but it's also NOT the case at most US companies.

Anyone who thinks thinks that companies don't have the customers well-being in mind doesn't know anything about how businesses work. Tip: If you don't have customers you don't have a business.

As far as employees go, the job market has never been better. That alone means that companies care about employee well-being unless they want a sky-high training liability for continuous turnover. Not to mention all the other well being things (safety which is required by law, benefits, advancement opportunities, etc.)
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
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PW100
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:38 pm

Antarius wrote:
kelval wrote:
That's what I was implying as well.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

It boggles me how everyone consider this LOI a deal while nothing's set in stone either way. For now it's just a cunning PR show, not much more than hot air. Isn't there anyone in the press industry to ponderate this? Ah well.


Come on. Unless you hear otherwise, why would your default assumption be that this LOI is nothing? Yes, the LOI has an out clause, but people dont make a habit of wasting time with LOIs on things they dont want.


Usually I consider LoI as rather serious interest, just needing some fine tuning for the final deal..
Giving the circumstances of and around this deal, one could (should?) have a rather healthy doses of scepticism. Especially since the competition wasn't even invited to bid. No one will be hurt or lose something when the deal is not honoured.

At the same time, if Boeing was desperate for a deal (which they were), offering UA type of pricing (remember C-series) and BA already have fairly good idea on what the competition has to offer (which they do, they already have it on order), then there would be no reason not to honour the LoI. All depends on pricing, and how much Airbus is willing to cave in on pricing (including already ordered frames ! ). Neither of which we have any insight in.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:39 pm

acjbbj wrote:
Nope. "Too big to fail" is nothing but a meaningless weasel word. And people know it.

It has a meaning in case of financial institutions, which would drag down thousands of other companies in case of failure and which. It also applies to banks, which have balance sheet totals many times as large as the whole economic performance of their countries.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
747megatop
Posts: 1702
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Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:53 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
747megatop wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Yes I have. And like pretty much all documentaries, it was extremely biased. Find a news organization with no bias and then let's talk.

That's the part i love the most. When folks see something they don't like then they call it "media bias". The FBI doesn't quite agree with you - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ports-says

Either they are complete idiots with nothing else to do so they are taking on this investigation OR there is something concrete which is why they are investigating Boeing's 787 factory in Charleston.

An oh, let's not forget the trash on the tankers dished out by Boeing to Uncle SAM - https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... sh-boeing/ ; now, are you going to say both the media and Uncle Sam are biased?

Boeing has some serious problems

1) Trash in new tankers delivered to USAF.
2) 787 global grounding due to battery issues.
3) 2 737 Max crashes killing 300+ people followed by global grounding.
4) Major quality control issues in the Charleston 787 plant triggering the widening of an already ongoing FBI criminal investigation originally triggered by the 737 Max Crashes.

Did i miss anything? This what happens when a bunch of overly greedy businessmen put profits over everything else.


You are so sure of yourself yet you didn't provide any evidence of criminal activity in Charleston.

i don't have since i am not the one saying there IS criminal activity in Charleston. All i said was that the FBI is investigating and doesn't quite agree with TTailedTiger view of Bias in that documentary. I also specifically stated "Either they are complete idiots with nothing else to do so they are taking on this investigation OR there is something concrete which is why they are investigating Boeing's 787 factory in Charleston." and in this sentence they=FBI.
Not sure what evidence you are looking for me to provide.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1430
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Federal Prosecutors Expanding Boeing Investigation to CHS 787 Production Site

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:12 pm

EK77WNH wrote:
Let's not forget that Boeing Seattle workers don't come off looking like saints either, with the FOD discoveries grinding KC-46 deliveries to a halt. Glass houses, and all that stuff...


It seems the P-8 workers did not talk to the KC-46 workers. In particular since the FOD discoveries I am surprised there are no commercial customers complaining. Or is it the Defense workers that worked on 20 planes on the ground, revised said planes several times with that attitude of "we will be back on this one, we can clean up then". This I think is one of the worst QA messes for recent Boeing, screwing up the basic stuff. There are 2 $B
worth of planes just sitting there.

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