OMAAbound
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SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:04 pm

Ben has reported that SAA will get A350’s in the second part of this year, (link below) anyone got any idea as to where these Aircraft will be coming from?

https://onemileatatime.com/south-african-airways-a350/

I’m pretty certain I’ve read elsewhere that the A350 book is pretty full, so I’m guessing these could be leased from another airline?

Thoughts or Info

OMAA
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x1234
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:10 pm

This should improve their profitability against the ME3/EU3. I heard a rumour the most profitable route for SAA right now is JNB-GRU with connecting traffic to Asia (JNB-HKG).
 
dredgy
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:19 pm

I'm booked with them JNB to PER in October specifically to go on an A340 for the first time, so I'm gonna be peeved if it gets swapped out.

On a business side, can't see this really helping at all. Just another added cost.
 
sxf24
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:20 pm

It will be an airplane that was not delivered to Hong Kong Airlines and leased from Airbus.

I know of one airplane, but it could be more. There are many ex-Hong Kong airplanes available.
 
OMAAbound
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:23 pm

sxf24 wrote:
It will be an airplane that was not delivered to Hong Kong Airlines and leased from Airbus.

I know of one airplane, but it could be more. There are many ex-Hong Kong airplanes available.


I thought these aircraft were going to Fiji Airways as the article says?

OMAA
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MarcusG
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:30 pm

dredgy wrote:
I'm booked with them JNB to PER in October specifically to go on an A340 for the first time, so I'm gonna be peeved if it gets swapped out.

On a business side, can't see this really helping at all. Just another added cost.


They are running the 332s quite a lot on the route now, might be worth keeping an eye out if you were wanting to fly on a 343/346 specifically, the 359s are supposedly going onto JNB-JFK,
 
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eastafspot
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:32 pm

Correct and also discussed here since a few days ago:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1412171&start=100#p21476071
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sxf24
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:35 pm

OMAAbound wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
It will be an airplane that was not delivered to Hong Kong Airlines and leased from Airbus.

I know of one airplane, but it could be more. There are many ex-Hong Kong airplanes available.


I thought these aircraft were going to Fiji Airways as the article says?

OMAA


There are at least 4 aircraft immediately available.
 
BrianWilkes
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:36 pm

Vietnam Airlines has announced there leasing out some of there 350's.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:37 pm

Deja vu to 2013 when SAA board agreed on plans for A350 order and Airbus had already even reserved MSN spots, but the deal was later squashed government committee over acquisition irregularities during the period of another CEO transition.
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dredgy
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:40 pm

MarcusG wrote:
dredgy wrote:
I'm booked with them JNB to PER in October specifically to go on an A340 for the first time, so I'm gonna be peeved if it gets swapped out.

On a business side, can't see this really helping at all. Just another added cost.


They are running the 332s quite a lot on the route now, might be worth keeping an eye out if you were wanting to fly on a 343/346 specifically, the 359s are supposedly going onto JNB-JFK,


I have redundant flights booked if it is the case that is swapped out - TNR-MRU on Air Mauritius, and MRU-JNB on SAA both currently scheduled on A340s, but am most looking forward to the 8 hour trek in business class! A swap to an A330 or A350 is likely an upgrade in product but I want the 4 engines :P
The 600 is what I wanted to fly the most but couldn’t make a flight work with my schedule.
 
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FlightLevel360
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:45 pm

sxf24 wrote:
It will be an airplane that was not delivered to Hong Kong Airlines and leased from Airbus.

I know of one airplane, but it could be more. There are many ex-Hong Kong airplanes available.


Why is HK Air not taking these 350 anymore? It would be a great replacement for their inferior and inconsistent A330 product.
To me, it will always be:
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Bricktop
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:47 pm

If it looks half as good as the A346, it will be gorgeous.
 
sxf24
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:54 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
It will be an airplane that was not delivered to Hong Kong Airlines and leased from Airbus.

I know of one airplane, but it could be more. There are many ex-Hong Kong airplanes available.


Why is HK Air not taking these 350 anymore? It would be a great replacement for their inferior and inconsistent A330 product.


They can’t afford the A350s.
 
x1234
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:21 pm

It seems they don't use their A340's that much as its always resting in overseas ports (no immediate turn) as the Europe-South Africa flights are all overnight (like North America-South America flights). I'd say if they ever get the $$$ it'd be a 1-1 replacement of the A340. They should get 6. As they receive A350's it should be in priority on the following A340 routes: JFK, FRA, & HKG/CAN. LHR, MUC, GRU and PER are already A330. IAD can be A330 for the time being but they should if they get 8 A350's make it non-stop.
 
trees
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:22 pm

sxf24 wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
It will be an airplane that was not delivered to Hong Kong Airlines and leased from Airbus.

I know of one airplane, but it could be more. There are many ex-Hong Kong airplanes available.


Why is HK Air not taking these 350 anymore? It would be a great replacement for their inferior and inconsistent A330 product.


They can’t afford the A350s.


Neither can SAA
 
trees
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:26 pm

As per the Southern African thread. Aircraft are MSN 226 & 245. Both ex-Hainan machines and LATAM ntu's delivered in only January this year.
 
sxf24
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:33 pm

trees wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:

Why is HK Air not taking these 350 anymore? It would be a great replacement for their inferior and inconsistent A330 product.


They can’t afford the A350s.


Neither can SAA


Which is the ironic. The one difference is that SA continues to pay its bills. The HNA airlines are more problematic in this area...
 
9252fly
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:36 pm

A good wide body combination would be A330s and A350s for their range capability where required. I'll avoid commenting on political, financial and management angles that would come into play in order for that to occur.
 
x1234
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:41 pm

Will there be a SAA code-share on United's new EWR-CPT flight!? Though I wish UA launched JNB instead (don't know about the performance characteristics of the 789 in JNB's hot and high weather).
 
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MoKa777
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:44 pm

I found this. Published 40 minutes ago from one of SA's more reliable independent news outlets.

https://ewn.co.za/2019/06/30/saa-acquir ... -its-fleet
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TSA125
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:01 pm

x1234 wrote:
This should improve their profitability against the ME3/EU3. I heard a rumour the most profitable route for SAA right now is JNB-GRU with connecting traffic to Asia (JNB-HKG).

Side note, but who's included in the "EU3" here?
No not that TSA.
 
mwhcvt
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:25 pm

TSA125 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
This should improve their profitability against the ME3/EU3. I heard a rumour the most profitable route for SAA right now is JNB-GRU with connecting traffic to Asia (JNB-HKG).

Side note, but who's included in the "EU3" here?


Usually that would be a reference to the big three intercontinental European airline groups so LH Group, AF/KL Group, and IAG
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
 
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B747-437B
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:29 pm

x1234 wrote:
I heard a rumour the most profitable route for SAA right now is JNB-GRU with connecting traffic to Asia (JNB-HKG).


GRU-JNB-HKG doesn't even offer a reasonable connection anymore. GRU-JNB arrives at 0725 and JNB-HKG departs at 1735. 10+ hours does not a connection make.
 
VSMUT
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:30 pm

TSA125 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
This should improve their profitability against the ME3/EU3. I heard a rumour the most profitable route for SAA right now is JNB-GRU with connecting traffic to Asia (JNB-HKG).

Side note, but who's included in the "EU3" here?


IAG, AF-KLM and Lufthansa Group. A term from the US that some try to misleadingly apply to Europe. Makes no sense since SAS, LOT, Alitalia, Finnair, TAP, Air Europe and Aegean are still around and both Aeroflot and Turkish can be viable competitors in many cases (in this case, especially Turkish).
 
ITSTours
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:31 pm

Oh wait, JNB-JFK nonstop was possible with A359? :P
Jokes aside, leasing this aircraft is a clever decision compared to operating A340.
At least the government will pay the lease even if SAA goes completely bankrupt.
 
A380MSN004
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:59 pm

sxf24 wrote:
It will be an airplane that was not delivered to Hong Kong Airlines and leased from Airbus.

I know of one airplane, but it could be more. There are many ex-Hong Kong airplanes available.


Interesting, didn't know had a lessor entity.
Compared To the other Well known lessors on the market what art The difference with airbus leasing entity?
Does the conditions are marginally better for instance?
 
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OA940
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:00 pm

Good move, but if they don't keep them long-term its gonna be just another financial burden. They need a long-term plan ASAP, and tbh the 359 fits in quite nicely in there.

VSMUT wrote:
TSA125 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
This should improve their profitability against the ME3/EU3. I heard a rumour the most profitable route for SAA right now is JNB-GRU with connecting traffic to Asia (JNB-HKG).

Side note, but who's included in the "EU3" here?


IAG, AF-KLM and Lufthansa Group. A term from the US that some try to misleadingly apply to Europe. Makes no sense since SAS, LOT, Alitalia, Finnair, TAP, Air Europe and Aegean are still around and both Aeroflot and Turkish can be viable competitors in many cases (in this case, especially Turkish).


I think you mean Air Europa. Air Europe has been gone for a while now ;)
A350/CSeries = bae
 
VSMUT
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:06 pm

OA940 wrote:
Good move, but if they don't keep them long-term its gonna be just another financial burden. They need a long-term plan ASAP, and tbh the 359 fits in quite nicely in there.

VSMUT wrote:
TSA125 wrote:
Side note, but who's included in the "EU3" here?


IAG, AF-KLM and Lufthansa Group. A term from the US that some try to misleadingly apply to Europe. Makes no sense since SAS, LOT, Alitalia, Finnair, TAP, Air Europe and Aegean are still around and both Aeroflot and Turkish can be viable competitors in many cases (in this case, especially Turkish).


I think you mean Air Europa. Air Europe has been gone for a while now ;)


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sxf24
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:14 pm

A380MSN004 wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
It will be an airplane that was not delivered to Hong Kong Airlines and leased from Airbus.

I know of one airplane, but it could be more. There are many ex-Hong Kong airplanes available.


Interesting, didn't know had a lessor entity.
Compared To the other Well known lessors on the market what art The difference with airbus leasing entity?
Does the conditions are marginally better for instance?


Airbus Asset Management will lease rejected and undelivered airplanes. For example, many of the A318s were leased from Airbus. At SAA, Airbus placed the A330-300s, which filled a critical production gap. The aircraft were then sold to lessors because they had very attractive (for lessorsj long term leases.
 
jfk777
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:21 pm

Great that SAA is getting some A350-900 at attractive prices but they will not "save" SAA from their problems. Will the A350 be able to fly nonstop from Johannesburg nonstop to JFK ? Very probable they will fly nonstop from JFK to South Africa. A Great step forward but they need many more steps forward.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:24 pm

They so desperately need new management, fear that the A350 will only be a sticking plaster.
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sxf24
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:26 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Great that SAA is getting some A350-900 at attractive prices but they will not "save" SAA from their problems. Will the A350 be able to fly nonstop from Johannesburg nonstop to JFK ? Very probable they will fly nonstop from JFK to South Africa. A Great step forward but they need many more steps forward.


Yes, the A350-900 can fly JNB-JFK. It can’t operate with a full payload and SAA will be limited to a 65-70% LF.
 
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mr02
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:02 pm

I'm assuming they'll be operated on JNB-Guangzhou,JFK-JNB, and JNB-HKG.
 
jbs2886
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:21 pm

 
T54A
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:29 pm

MSN 226 & 245

To be operated on the JNB-JFK-JNB where max fuel saving can be achieved. Prelim figures show a fuel saving in excess of 30000kg per sector vs the A346.

30,000kg x 2 =60,000kg
60,000kg x 365= 21 900,000kg per year on JNB-JFK-JNB

Hot and high performance penalty out of JNB has been taken into consideration.
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LAXintl
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:38 pm

Reported config is C30Y246 which if correct is quite low density.
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MoKa777
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:48 pm

T54A wrote:
MSN 226 & 245

To be operated on the JNB-JFK-JNB where max fuel saving can be achieved. Prelim figures show a fuel saving in excess of 30000kg per sector vs the A346.

30,000kg x 2 =60,000kg
60,000kg x 365= 21 900,000kg per year on JNB-JFK-JNB

Hot and high performance penalty out of JNB has been taken into consideration.


Wow! That is quite the saving!

Do you know how much total fuel the A346 uses on these sectors? It would be great to see the percentage fuel burn saving of the A359.

Edit: Around 3 years ago we were told here on a.net that CX scheduled the A359 on the HKG-DUS route instead of the 77W and achieved 25t lower fuel burn between the 2 models.

Should the saving achieved by SAA on JNB-JFK, therefore, not be higher than 30t especially considering that the A359 they are receiving is much newer and the comparison is between the A359 and A346 that we know uses (slightly) more fuel than a 77W? JNB-JFK is also approx. 40% longer than HKG-DUS.

Any thoughts?
Last edited by MoKa777 on Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MoKa777
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:49 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Reported config is C30Y246 which if correct is quite low density.


That does seem too low. Especially in J.
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x1234
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:51 pm

If they want to save more fuel they should get more A350's or A332's. Their A332 can actually make JNB-HKG as DL used to operate the A332 to the limit with DTW-PEK (similar distance).
 
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mr02
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:05 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Reported config is C30Y246 which if correct is quite low density.


That does seem too low. Especially in J.

Is it Hong Kong airlines' configuration or SAA's own?
 
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MoKa777
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:11 pm

I believe Hong Kong Airlines config is 334 with 33 in J and 301 in Y.

SAA may have had to reconfigure downwards because of the length of flight planned but wouldn't they want to maximise premium capacity because of that (IF they can fill it of course...)
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Polot
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:14 pm

x1234 wrote:
If they want to save more fuel they should get more A350's or A332's. Their A332 can actually make JNB-HKG as DL used to operate the A332 to the limit with DTW-PEK (similar distance).

DTW isn’t ~5500’/1700 m above sea level though, unlike JNB.
 
dmstorm22
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:22 pm

Damn, decided to test out UA's new CPT service next year instead of going with the (slightly) cheaper 1-stop through JNB because of how dated their A346 product was and now they go and do this....

Anyway, no idea on the economics of making this move, but at least their ULH product will be better.
 
TSA125
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:26 pm

VSMUT wrote:
TSA125 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
This should improve their profitability against the ME3/EU3. I heard a rumour the most profitable route for SAA right now is JNB-GRU with connecting traffic to Asia (JNB-HKG).

Side note, but who's included in the "EU3" here?


IAG, AF-KLM and Lufthansa Group. A term from the US that some try to misleadingly apply to Europe. Makes no sense since SAS, LOT, Alitalia, Finnair, TAP, Air Europe and Aegean are still around and both Aeroflot and Turkish can be viable competitors in many cases (in this case, especially Turkish).

Precisely. Europe's rankings are quite more complicated but in terms of legacy but historically it makes sense for it to be the flag carriers of the UK, France, and Germany.
No not that TSA.
 
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mr02
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:28 pm

x1234 wrote:
If they want to save more fuel they should get more A350's or A332's. Their A332 can actually make JNB-HKG as DL used to operate the A332 to the limit with DTW-PEK (similar distance).

It's impossible out of Jnb. Even if it could it would take a heavy payload hit.
 
rigo
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:51 pm

dredgy wrote:
I'm booked with them JNB to PER in October specifically to go on an A340 for the first time, so I'm gonna be peeved if it gets swapped out.

On a business side, can't see this really helping at all. Just another added cost.


Don't be peeved if you get the A350. It's the best ride there is.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:14 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
It will be an airplane that was not delivered to Hong Kong Airlines and leased from Airbus.

I know of one airplane, but it could be more. There are many ex-Hong Kong airplanes available.


Why is HK Air not taking these 350 anymore? It would be a great replacement for their inferior and inconsistent A330 product.

When they're rumoured to have less than 3 months' worth of cash flow left?

Michael
 
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smithbs
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:04 am

T54A wrote:
MSN 226 & 245

To be operated on the JNB-JFK-JNB where max fuel saving can be achieved. Prelim figures show a fuel saving in excess of 30000kg per sector vs the A346.

30,000kg x 2 =60,000kg
60,000kg x 365= 21 900,000kg per year on JNB-JFK-JNB

Hot and high performance penalty out of JNB has been taken into consideration.


Thanks for the info. That sounds like an absolute fuel savings advantage, but the number I'd be curious to see is the fuel per available revenue weight (factoring in the JNB-JFK route particularly - high TO and harsh headwinds). Do you have those kinds of numbers? It would be different if, for example, the A346 took more fuel but could also carry more revenue weight on this particular mission.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:42 am

Another thing is that the A359 cruises at 0.85 compared to 0.82 of the A346. Flight time will be shorter. And with a 30J246Y configuration it’s low density. Also the A350 has quite stellar hot and high performance because of the wing.

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