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seat64k
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:45 am

Good point!

MEX: 2,238 m
BOG: 2,548 m
UIO: 2,400 m
SCL: 474 m
SJO: 921 m

How does the A350 cope at 2400m?
 
gloom
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:40 am

2400m would be more or less 8000ft, to simplify. Not quite sure how much temperature deviates from ISA, but a rough answer is in ACAPS. Their longest runway is 14500 ft long, that would be 4400m (4419.something, but keep the things simple). If there are no other restrictions (climb profile etc), this would give max MTOW at 254-255t, with OEW around 142t and full board with no cargo (35t assumed) this would give somewhere between 55 and 60t of fuel. 10hr range, or 5000nm still range.

Keep in mind that:
1. it's a rough estimation, with some elements simplified
2. based on ACAPS, not the exact plane SAA will use
3. not taking ISA, which could influence the numbers by probably 1hr up or down
4. not taking date/time into considerations

So basically this is just a "very much more or less" from deciding what would be the real range of real thing departing on specified time.

Cheers,
Adam
 
seat64k
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:31 pm

Thanks @gloom - I need to look up some terms to fully understand your explanation :) But it looks like a significant penalty.

Does a longer runway allow for higher MTOW given the thinner air? I.e. a faster takeoff?
 
gloom
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:36 am

seat64k wrote:
Does a longer runway allow for higher MTOW given the thinner air? I.e. a faster takeoff?


Not by much. If you look that yourself, you'd be more familiar, however to give an example:
at 8000ft altitude and 4km runway MTOW would be around 250t
at 8000ft altitude and 5km runway MTOW would be around 257-258t.

So 7-8 tons for extra 1000m of runway.

https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... 0-1000.pdf
 
seat64k
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:11 am

I see that ZS-SDE did a JNB-DUR-JNB round trip a few days ago. The flight number is the same both directions - SA4545. Does anyone know if this was a revenue flight? Or just a test run?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zs-sde
 
trees
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:47 am

Crew training flights. No passengers. You’ll see a few we’re done two weeks ago and more are scheduled.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:09 am

gloom wrote:
N0ot by much. If you look that yourself, you'd be more familiar, however to give an example:
at 8000ft altitude and 4km runway MTOW would be around 250t
at 8000ft altitude and 5km runway MTOW would be around 257-258t.

So 7-8 tons for extra 1000m of runway.

....and that's assuming that you don't hit your tire limit, and thus are even able to take advantage of the extra available length.

That was the issue DL initially faced on the JNB-ATL westbound: Boeing+Goodyear had to modify their 77Ls' tires, to give DL the limit they'd need to get the payload they wanted, on that segment.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:04 am

gloom wrote:
seat64k wrote:
Does a longer runway allow for higher MTOW given the thinner air? I.e. a faster takeoff?


Not by much. If you look that yourself, you'd be more familiar, however to give an example:
at 8000ft altitude and 4km runway MTOW would be around 250t
at 8000ft altitude and 5km runway MTOW would be around 257-258t.

So 7-8 tons for extra 1000m of runway.

https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... 0-1000.pdf

JNB is only 1.7km roughly in altitude. And has 4.4km in runways. So SAA will be just fine. The A359 is a more than capable 17+ hr aircraft even at altitude.
 
jfk777
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:18 pm

What is the status if the A350 lease with SAA declaring Bankruptcy ?
 
gloom
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:46 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
....and that's assuming that you don't hit your tire limit, and thus are even able to take advantage of the extra available length.


A350 wing load at MTOW is really way lower than 777. I don't think it's speed limited at any weight and airport, even given GS on ground will be 16% greater than IAS at takeoff on 8k.

Cheers,
Adam
 
evanb
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:24 pm

jfk777 wrote:
What is the status if the A350 lease with SAA declaring Bankruptcy ?


They didn't declare bankruptcy. They've entered a process under South Africa law called business rescue where an independent practitioner takes over de facto removing the power of the board and shareholders. They have to generate a business plan that can get approval from 75% of the creditors. The practitioners could receive up to several years to then implement this plan. Failure to get agreement will mean liquidation. The incentives are strongly lined up to get an agreement on a plan. The practitioner that was a appointed has a strong track record of success in this process, although the odds are clearly stacked against him.

It's not clear that the leases are part of the process. Firstly, lessors are not major creditors (there is no reason to believe SAA are in arrears to lessors), and secondly, the leases are generally not entered into under SA law and thus not subject to the SA legal jurisdiction.
 
andz
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:17 pm

evanb wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
What is the status if the A350 lease with SAA declaring Bankruptcy ?


They didn't declare bankruptcy. They've entered a process under South Africa law called business rescue where an independent practitioner takes over de facto removing the power of the board and shareholders. They have to generate a business plan that can get approval from 75% of the creditors. The practitioners could receive up to several years to then implement this plan. Failure to get agreement will mean liquidation. The incentives are strongly lined up to get an agreement on a plan. The practitioner that was a appointed has a strong track record of success in this process, although the odds are clearly stacked against him.

It's not clear that the leases are part of the process. Firstly, lessors are not major creditors (there is no reason to believe SAA are in arrears to lessors), and secondly, the leases are generally not entered into under SA law and thus not subject to the SA legal jurisdiction.


He doesn't have a lot of time though:

Within the next two weeks, SAA’s business rescue practitioner Les Matuson must inform creditors and unions whether he believes the beleaguered airline can be rescued.

If he doesn’t think it can be saved, he is obligated to apply for SAA to be liquidated: all its assets will be sold off to return some money to creditors, mainly a group of banks.

But if Matuson does believe the airline can be saved, the Companies Act affords him another fifteen business days to present a business rescue plan to its creditors.


I'm not sure what happened to the thread about the business rescue.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
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AECM
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:31 pm

It appears that today the A350 starts to operate on the JNB-JFK route with SAA
 
seat64k
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:26 pm

I see the flight is delayed. Hope SAA doesn't go out of business befoe it takes off...
 
andz
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:29 pm

seat64k wrote:
I see the flight is delayed. Hope SAA doesn't go out of business befoe it takes off...

You win the prize for stupid comment of the day.

And it is before, not befoe.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
x1234
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:34 pm

A350 should be able to fly faster @ Mach 0.855 resulting in a quicker trip (15 hours)?
 
evanb
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:47 pm

x1234 wrote:
A350 should be able to fly faster @ Mach 0.855 resulting in a quicker trip (15 hours)?


It can, doesn't mean it will. Tonight's will be about 15:50.
 
seat64k
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:11 pm

@evanb do you have any information on the fuel use on SA203 of the A359 compared to the A346? Would be nice to know what sort of gains SAA are getting in efficiency.

Also, is passenger numbers taking a hit due to the troubles?
 
seat64k
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:13 pm

andz wrote:
seat64k wrote:
I see the flight is delayed. Hope SAA doesn't go out of business befoe it takes off...

You win the prize for stupid comment of the day.


I guess you haven't been following the news.

andz wrote:
And it is before, not befoe.


Fair play, I'll own my typoes.
 
evanb
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:16 pm

seat64k wrote:
@evanb do you have any information on the fuel use on SA203 of the A359 compared to the A346? Would be nice to know what sort of gains SAA are getting in efficiency.


Working numbers are about 90t on the A359 and 120t on the A346, so a savings of about 30t each way.

seat64k wrote:
Also, is passenger numbers taking a hit due to the troubles?


Very much so. It took a while to impact them but numbers on some routes have taken a dive in recent days.
 
seat64k
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:19 pm

evanb wrote:
Working numbers are about 90t on the A359 and 120t on the A346, so a savings of about 30t each way.


Holy moly! I didn't expect the difference to be that much. How does weight/passenger restrictions compare?

evanb wrote:
Very much so. It took a while to impact them but numbers on some routes have taken a dive in recent days.


This is what I'm most worried about. Even if the funding comes through and Ghordan stops meddling and the business rescue is successessful, the public confidence is so damaged the airline won't be able to fill the seats.
 
evanb
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:29 pm

seat64k wrote:
Holy moly! I didn't expect the difference to be that much. How does weight/passenger restrictions compare?


Indeed, but you hint at an important point, the A350 also carries less payload so per ton of payload, the A350 doesn't burn 25% less. I suspect that SAA were flying the A346 on the route for payload and range rather than size, so in that respect they will see the full benefit.

seat64k wrote:
This is what I'm most worried about. Even if the funding comes through and Ghordan stops meddling and the business rescue is successessful, the public confidence is so damaged the airline won't be able to fill the seats.


I think many on the inside now feel the same. My belief is that they've thrown in the towel. What is going on now is delaying tactics to give them more time to sort out what they can, salvage the few functional or necessary parts and wind down the rest in an orderly fashion.
 
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AECM
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:42 pm

evanb wrote:
seat64k wrote:
Holy moly! I didn't expect the difference to be that much. How does weight/passenger restrictions compare?


Indeed, but you hint at an important point, the A350 also carries less payload so per ton of payload, the A350 doesn't burn 25% less. I suspect that SAA were flying the A346 on the route for payload and range rather than size, so in that respect they will see the full benefit.

seat64k wrote:
This is what I'm most worried about. Even if the funding comes through and Ghordan stops meddling and the business rescue is successessful, the public confidence is so damaged the airline won't be able to fill the seats.


I think many on the inside now feel the same. My belief is that they've thrown in the towel. What is going on now is delaying tactics to give them more time to sort out what they can, salvage the few functional or necessary parts and wind down the rest in an orderly fashion.


Do you have data regarding max payload difference between A346 and A359 on this route?
 
evanb
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:02 pm

AECM wrote:
Do you have data regarding max payload difference between A346 and A359 on this route?


Very rough estimates, at 5,500ft AMSL

Standard day:
B77L RTOW 330t MTOW 347t
B789 RTOW 240t MTOW 254t
A359 RTOW 275t MTOW 280t
A346 RTOW 375t MTOW 375t (I'm rounding up on RTOW, but it's gets as close to MTOW as one could get)

Standard +15C:
B77L RTOW 320t MTOW 347t
B789 RTOW 233t MTOW 254t
A359 RTOW 270t MTOW 280t
A346 RTOW 365t MTOW 375t
 
andz
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:53 pm

seat64k wrote:
successessful


Are you doing this deliberately?

And no I don't watch the news I have insider information.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
seat64k
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:54 am

andz wrote:
seat64k wrote:
successessful


Are you doing this deliberately?


No

andz wrote:
And no I don't watch the news I have insider information.


So maybe you should take into account what the rest of us know before casting judgements?

andz wrote:
seat64k wrote:
I see the flight is delayed. Hope SAA doesn't go out of business befoe it takes off...

You win the prize for stupid comment of the day.


Let's see: The company is out of cash. Government failed to come up with the 2bn. They're cancelling routes - international and domestic, including some of the JNB-CPT capacity. That last one is a biggy - it's one of the busiest routes by passenger numbers IN THE WORLD. Lack of demand here is not lack of demand for the route. It's passengers voting with their Rands.

While the timing component of my comment was clearly tongue in cheek, the chances of SAA going out of business at any moment is really not far fetched, given what's publicly known. So why not share some of that insider info rather than call people stupid?
 
mr02
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:58 am

seat64k wrote:
andz wrote:
seat64k wrote:
successessful


Are you doing this deliberately?


No

andz wrote:
And no I don't watch the news I have insider information.


So maybe you should take into account what the rest of us know before casting judgements?

andz wrote:
seat64k wrote:
I see the flight is delayed. Hope SAA doesn't go out of business befoe it takes off...

You win the prize for stupid comment of the day.


Let's see: The company is out of cash. Government failed to come up with the 2bn. They're cancelling routes - international and domestic, including some of the JNB-CPT capacity. That last one is a biggy - it's one of the busiest routes by passenger numbers IN THE WORLD. Lack of demand here is not lack of demand for the route. It's passengers voting with their Rands.

While the timing component of my comment was clearly tongue in cheek, the chances of SAA going out of business at any moment is really not far fetched, given what's publicly known. So why not share some of that insider info rather than call people stupid?

Assuming you are South African,and don't fly SAA-you don't speak for the flying public. I was on CPT-JNB flight this school holidays,and the flight was full. If you look at the South African market in general,it is oversaturated.Even comair is canceling some flights in South Africa.
 
majano
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:37 am

mr02 wrote:
seat64k wrote:
andz wrote:

Are you doing this deliberately?


No

andz wrote:
And no I don't watch the news I have insider information.


So maybe you should take into account what the rest of us know before casting judgements?

andz wrote:
You win the prize for stupid comment of the day.


Let's see: The company is out of cash. Government failed to come up with the 2bn. They're cancelling routes - international and domestic, including some of the JNB-CPT capacity. That last one is a biggy - it's one of the busiest routes by passenger numbers IN THE WORLD. Lack of demand here is not lack of demand for the route. It's passengers voting with their Rands.

While the timing component of my comment was clearly tongue in cheek, the chances of SAA going out of business at any moment is really not far fetched, given what's publicly known. So why not share some of that insider info rather than call people stupid?

Assuming you are South African,and don't fly SAA-you don't speak for the flying public. I was on CPT-JNB flight this school holidays,and the flight was full. If you look at the South African market in general,it is oversaturated.Even comair is canceling some flights in South Africa.

Comair is generally unreliable. At Lanseria for example, a great proportion of their flights are delayed substantially. Flysafair is doing a better job of on-time departure and arrival. Yes the market is saturated, but the established carriers have dropped the ball is certain areas that are important for the flying public.
 
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PM
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:10 pm

majano wrote:


Comair is generally unreliable.
Really? I only know them on the JNB-WDH route where they are far, far more reliable than SAA or Air Namibia.
 
seat64k
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:15 pm

mr02 wrote:
Assuming you are South African,and don't fly SAA-you don't speak for the flying public. I was on CPT-JNB flight this school holidays,and the flight was full. If you look at the South African market in general,it is oversaturated.Even comair is canceling some flights in South Africa.


Is SAA cancelling routes depsite the flying public filling seats? I am South African, and as I alluded to I flew SAA two weeks ago. Usually when I fly in early Janaury, the flights are full. This time, on the JNB-CPT flight, the plane was half empty - I had a whole row to myself. The flight back on FlySafAir was packed. Of course, just an anecdote, like yours.

I'm guessing Ghordan didn't plead with the public to book on SAA for the great optics.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:30 pm

Don’t know if this has been posted before, but SAA will deploynthe A350 to FRA too. Booked a flight in September and although it shows A346 on booking sites, I noticed in my booking the seating is 3-3-3 so it’s an A350.

Too bad, A346 would be nice as we’re travelling with a group of 4, 2-4-2 seating of the A340 would have been a lot better.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
evanb
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:13 pm

frigatebird wrote:
Don’t know if this has been posted before, but SAA will deploynthe A350 to FRA too. Booked a flight in September and although it shows A346 on booking sites, I noticed in my booking the seating is 3-3-3 so it’s an A350.

Too bad, A346 would be nice as we’re travelling with a group of 4, 2-4-2 seating of the A340 would have been a lot better.


All A340-600s will be withdrawn from use, 6 sold and 3 returned to lessors.
 
Chrisba320
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:57 am

In 2011 SAA made a very decent profit but unfortunately then the looting, bad management and political interference started. They achieved this despite not having the most efficient aircraft and some routes that could never be profitable. SAA finds itself in its current position as a result of what happened higher up since 2011, not because it is a bad airline. Domestic and regional flights on SAA are excellent, much better than any of its competitors. Not least because of their A320’s which are a joy to travel on compared to the crappy old 737-800’s most of their competitors use. The difference in the passenger experience is vast. I am confident SAA will get through this, the business rescue practitioners are doing all the right things at the moment and the government has little or no influence over the process. SAA after this will be a very different airline to what went before. My guess at this stage is that they will cull most of their domestic routes with the possible exception of JNB - CPT which is one of the busiest routes in the world. Then focus on the best regional routes where the yields are excellent and trim their international network and only keep ones that can be operated profitably. Perhaps even introduce a new route or two, India is near certain. The A350is the right plane for SAA at the right time, so are the A330-300’s they already have. If things go well these can later be replaced with A330neo’s which will give them an efficient, capable fleet perfect for their requirements. We’ve been through a lot in this country, we’ll get through this as well.
 
TriStar500
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:20 pm

Another new SAA A350 Destination is FRA. I just found out that the aircraft type on my SA260 trip next July has changed from A346 to A359.

P.S.: Sorry, just saw that someone else already found out about this.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
seat64k
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:36 am

TriStar500 wrote:
Another new SAA A350 Destination is FRA. I just found out that the aircraft type on my SA260 trip next July has changed from A346 to A359.


I would have such mixed feelings if this happened to me ;)
 
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AECM
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu May 21, 2020 9:05 am

While the A359 was on the JNB-JFK routes does anyone have and can share some info about payload and fuel burns?
 
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frigatebird
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu May 21, 2020 10:01 am

seat64k wrote:
TriStar500 wrote:
Another new SAA A350 Destination is FRA. I just found out that the aircraft type on my SA260 trip next July has changed from A346 to A359.


I would have such mixed feelings if this happened to me ;)


Happened to me twice, and I had these mixed feelings too. Last autumn my IB flight to EZE changed from A346 to A359. First A350 flight for me though. Return flight from SCL still was A346, another first time for me and almost surely the last one too, sadly. Sorry A350 fans, but the A346 experience won hands down.

And the second time the change on SAA from FRA. Due next August, but if or when this will really happen God only knows. Will the SA A350s be returned to the lessors?
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
evanb
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu May 21, 2020 10:11 am

AECM wrote:
While the A359 was on the JNB-JFK routes does anyone have and can share some info about payload and fuel burns?


Lifts 270t to 275t (depending on temperature) on the JNB-JFK sector carrying roughly 90t of fuel.
 
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AECM
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu May 21, 2020 10:32 am

evanb wrote:
AECM wrote:
While the A359 was on the JNB-JFK routes does anyone have and can share some info about payload and fuel burns?


Lifts 270t to 275t (depending on temperature) on the JNB-JFK sector carrying roughly 90t of fuel.


90t of fuel is for the trip or also including reserves?
 
evanb
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu May 21, 2020 10:42 am

AECM wrote:
evanb wrote:
AECM wrote:
While the A359 was on the JNB-JFK routes does anyone have and can share some info about payload and fuel burns?


Lifts 270t to 275t (depending on temperature) on the JNB-JFK sector carrying roughly 90t of fuel.


90t of fuel is for the trip or also including reserves?


Yes. Carrying 90t, not burning.
 
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AECM
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu May 21, 2020 10:51 am

evanb wrote:
AECM wrote:
evanb wrote:

Lifts 270t to 275t (depending on temperature) on the JNB-JFK sector carrying roughly 90t of fuel.


90t of fuel is for the trip or also including reserves?


Yes. Carrying 90t, not burning.
So payloads were 35 ton up? Full passenger plus some cargo?
 
majano
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu May 21, 2020 11:30 am

evanb wrote:
AECM wrote:
While the A359 was on the JNB-JFK routes does anyone have and can share some info about payload and fuel burns?


Lifts 270t to 275t (depending on temperature) on the JNB-JFK sector carrying roughly 90t of fuel.

Thank you very much evanb. Do you expect this to change when summer comes around and by how much?
 
evanb
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu May 21, 2020 11:42 am

AECM wrote:
So payloads were 35 ton up? Full passenger plus some cargo?


Yeah, they were able to carry a nice payload. Not sure they did though. They brought it on the route when they were already suffering from very poor publicity and issues with travel insurance.
 
evanb
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu May 21, 2020 11:46 am

majano wrote:
Thank you very much evanb. Do you expect this to change when summer comes around and by how much?


JNB is southern hemisphere, so summer months run from October through March (on IATA winter) so they already operated it through summer. The flight has a relatively late departure (scheduled 9:10pm) ex JNB in those months to give them a little more room on the temperature side. They do lose about 5t on TOW in summer, sometimes a little more.
 
majano
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Re: SAA Leasing A350

Thu May 21, 2020 8:38 pm

evanb wrote:
majano wrote:
Thank you very much evanb. Do you expect this to change when summer comes around and by how much?


JNB is southern hemisphere, so summer months run from October through March (on IATA winter) so they already operated it through summer. The flight has a relatively late departure (scheduled 9:10pm) ex JNB in those months to give them a little more room on the temperature side. They do lose about 5t on TOW in summer, sometimes a little more.

Thank you.

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