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qf789
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New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:53 pm

Welcome to New Zealand Aviation Thread July 2019. Please continue to add your comments below.

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viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1423767
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ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:55 pm

KE change AKL to 789 today replacing the 772, those 772s first came to AKL around 2000, fortunately we have had 773/77W/744/748 aswell but the 772s have certainly been a main stay over the winter months. The 748 is scheduled again this NW, last year the 77W continued.

Be interesting for them with NZ doing AKL-ICN from November.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:19 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
Anyway the choice is made and we will likely publicly never know the exact reasons why but fleet simplification seems to have played a part here.


I think this sums it up, and there won't be a single reason or even a handful of reasons. It's clearly an extremely detailed formula for how the business foresees the use of the assets, which markets it'll be used in, how those markets will perform over the coming 1-2 decades then down to basic airline modelling on how to configure them how to sell seats, cargo, cabin crew and tech crew training and e.r. parts simulators, fleet flexibility and contingency...

The airline certainly took its time making a decision.

aerokiwi wrote:
All that matters is the outcome, the final decision. Everything else was hearsay and scuttlebutt, which is fun, but largely of no value. The "crowd" on here was ultimately proven wrong. Entertaining to read, all the same..


I'm confused by your post. This is a forum, not a media release website, therefore, the majority of conversation you choose to participate in is "hearsay and scuttlebutt" If that's a negative or of "no value", why contribute? It's a bit weak to say after the fact, it was entertaining to read people were "proven wrong" when they simply had an opinion, I'm sure you also held an opinion.

I'm not even sure who you're directing this towards, I'll make an assumption it's me for a moment, which if so, makes me laugh. I always had no real belief which way it was going until about a month out. I'm not accountable for deciding what aircraft to buy but, like any organisation, rumours float around, preferred options get mentioned by workgroups.. does the benefit to that workgroup(s) outweigh the overall big picture?? I certainly never dismissed Boeing or Airbus, except maybe the 777X option.

If you want to sit on the fence at the finish line and suggest people (me or otherwise) have been proven wrong for simply holding a view or opinion on something which was neck and neck... well... let's not go there.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:56 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
Sure, I’ll admit I don’t think I’m the only one who saw a gap in Boeing’s offering however where for long haul you had something like for typical operators with J, W, Y

210-230 seat 788 with good range.
240-280 seat 789 with very good range,
320-340 seat 778 with extreme range
340-360 seat 779 with good range on high capacity routes

Airbus

270-290 seat A339 with good range
270-290 seat A359 with very long range
330-350 seat A35K with very long range

Not a very scientific view and by by guessing you could say Airbus has a gap but these aren’t exact numbers and it varies from carrier to carrier.

Boeing has a big gap from the 789 to the 779 really, it’s doubtful as to the 778 being built so a 78J with extended range seating 300-320 seemed like an obvious choice to me. The only thing was we were continually told the 787 period had maxed out its landing gear weight. Now we aren’t exactly sure what Boeing have done to increase the range of the 78J but I’m sure we will find out sometime.

The 78J seems a great fit into Asia, and eventually as a 77W replacement into LAX/SFO, I can’t at this stage see it going further and I think the longest current routes into IAH/EZE probably YVR will be 789s.


There are two basic variables at play here, passenger load and range. Obviously, CASM is the kicker between the two but...

What Air NZ has done here is firstly worked out, where and when they'll use these new aircraft, then why and how etc.

From there they've known they want to fly more routes more directly and more frequently targeting inbound premium passengers. This is where you can quickly put a line through the 777X, while it offers the range you want it also offers way too much capacity which rules out frequency. You can still get the range needed from the A350 and 787 families while both offer a more suitable sized passenger cabin. Obviously, when you compare the A359 and 78J the gap and differences aren't as noticeable.

But ultimately, this is where you come to the conclusion it's not a best-fit approach to replacing the 772 and the comment in the media release about working with Boeing to deploy on similar missions is clearly targeting what can only be more payload onboard for missions out at around 5,500nm, remember he said "similar" so is IAH or YVR beyond that range. Is that in the form of an increase in MTOW, most likely.

The 787-10 can fly AKL-LAX, AKL-EZE, AKL-HKG today, heck it can even do AKL-YVR and AKL-IAH, the issue is the amount of payload available to you and can you make that work or how much more do you need.

Again, that's the earlier modelling.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:18 am

Now the eDM has started going out, there's hopefully going to be a slight reduction on guests in the lounge who have obtained accessed via Banking Partners.

The amount spent to get a voucher is changing and the number of vouchers you can get a year is being capped.

In my opinion, a bloody good move for those who are entitled to entry from their regular flying.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:26 am

So it looks like 789s ZK-NZD/NZE are still grounded. Has NZE been repaired since being hit by a ground vehicle? Though it’s engines were removed and put in NZJ, is NZF on track to have engines by September?

ZK-OKJ the 2nd leased 772 hasn’t flown in some time, I’m presuming it’s probably leaving soon?!

ZK-OKT the leased BR 77W is still flying, but for how much longer? And is there any possibility that NZ look at a longer lease? Ie 3-5 years with a repaint and cabin reconfiguration? Or not needed? Given there are no long haul aircraft planned for delivery from late 2019 through 2022, there is the odd route or HKG where they are retiming it which frees up a frame, outside of North America which they probably won’t change anything I don’t think there are any other routes with particularly long ground time bar PVG which is slot restricted.
 
aerokiwi
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:36 am

NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
Anyway the choice is made and we will likely publicly never know the exact reasons why but fleet simplification seems to have played a part here.


I think this sums it up, and there won't be a single reason or even a handful of reasons. It's clearly an extremely detailed formula for how the business foresees the use of the assets, which markets it'll be used in, how those markets will perform over the coming 1-2 decades then down to basic airline modelling on how to configure them how to sell seats, cargo, cabin crew and tech crew training and e.r. parts simulators, fleet flexibility and contingency...

The airline certainly took its time making a decision.

aerokiwi wrote:
All that matters is the outcome, the final decision. Everything else was hearsay and scuttlebutt, which is fun, but largely of no value. The "crowd" on here was ultimately proven wrong. Entertaining to read, all the same..


I'm confused by your post. This is a forum, not a media release website, therefore, the majority of conversation you choose to participate in is "hearsay and scuttlebutt" If that's a negative or of "no value", why contribute? It's a bit weak to say after the fact, it was entertaining to read people were "proven wrong" when they simply had an opinion, I'm sure you also held an opinion.

I'm not even sure who you're directing this towards, I'll make an assumption it's me for a moment, which if so, makes me laugh. I always had no real belief which way it was going until about a month out. I'm not accountable for deciding what aircraft to buy but, like any organisation, rumours float around, preferred options get mentioned by workgroups.. does the benefit to that workgroup(s) outweigh the overall big picture?? I certainly never dismissed Boeing or Airbus, except maybe the 777X option.

If you want to sit on the fence at the finish line and suggest people (me or otherwise) have been proven wrong for simply holding a view or opinion on something which was neck and neck... well... let's not go there.


I'm confused by your confusion. And how quickly you lose context. Read.

My response was replying to ZK-NBT pointing out that many (the majority?) here argued the 350 was the better aircraft and superior choice. This was in relation to claims the 350 production costs played a role, presumably via sale cost to NZ. I pointed out that we shouldn't be surprised the arguments here were proven wrong given the opinion on here is just... opinion.

I never said it was entertaining that people were proven wrong, just that the speculation of the choice was entertaining. I'm wrong all the time but getting there can be great! Though it actually dominated to such an extent that it became a little pointless even checking in on these threads for new news.

Have a wee read next time and perhaps you won't be so confused.
 
tom90
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:43 am

Does anyone know what the new guidelines around lounge access for Air NZ are? I gather they were released today but I haven't heard anything from AirNZ yet.
 
PA515
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:44 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
So it looks like 789s ZK-NZD/NZE are still grounded. Has NZE been repaired since being hit by a ground vehicle? Though it’s engines were removed and put in NZJ, is NZF on track to have engines by September?

ZK-NZD has been back in service for a while.

ZK-NBT wrote:
ZK-OKJ the 2nd leased 772 hasn’t flown in some time, I’m presuming it’s probably leaving soon?!

Most likely.

ZK-NBT wrote:
ZK-OKT the leased BR 77W is still flying, but for how much longer? And is there any possibility that NZ look at a longer lease? Ie 3-5 years with a repaint and cabin reconfiguration? Or not needed? Given there are no long haul aircraft planned for delivery from late 2019 through 2022, there is the odd route or HKG where they are retiming it which frees

It has been mentioned elsewhere that ZK-OKT will stay until late October 2019. Same source that in Dec 2018 said Air NZ might get the 787-10 with GE engines.

PA515
 
DavidJ08
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:09 am

tom90 wrote:
Does anyone know what the new guidelines around lounge access for Air NZ are? I gather they were released today but I haven't heard anything from AirNZ yet.

I had a look at the WingTips newsletters on the AirNZ Agent site someone linked here once... There are a few changes coming in from 1st August 2019:
1) Guest access - Elite members previously could bring up to five guests, this will be reduced to three.
2) Child access - 12-17 year olds will be permitted via Child access (previously had to be 11 or under), and there will be a limit of 3 children aged 3-17.
3) Lounge eVouchers - ANZ Airpoints Visa Platinum and Kwibank-AirNZ Airpoints Mastercard (standard and platinum) previously earned two vouchers for every $20k spent on eligible purchases, this will become two vouchers for every $30k spent, and a maximum of four vouchers per year.

Non-lounge changes
4) Status Boost - Gold members get 15 bonus Status Points for every 10 Status Boost Journeys completed; and Elite members get 30 bonus Status Points for every 10 Status Boost Journeys completed. A "Status Boost Journey" is a journey on Air NZ, or "an Air NZ flight number and ticketed booking on a Qualifying Partner Airline Flight" (CX AKL-HKG & CHC-HKG, UA AKL-SFO, CA AKL-PEK).
5) Status Hold (Parental) - for new parents to put Gold or Elite on hold for 12 months from date of application: https://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/status-hold-parental

EDIT: just received an email from Air NZ with personalized information (i.e. only changes that affect me). I guess this means others should receive information soon also?
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:12 am

tom90 wrote:
Does anyone know what the new guidelines around lounge access for Air NZ are? I gather they were released today but I haven't heard anything from AirNZ yet.

“Your ******* Airpoints ****** Platinum card is one of the fastest ways to earn Airpoints Dollars™. Members have told us the lounge eVouchers they can earn with their card are also a welcome benefit.

We’ve also had feedback that the lounges are becoming crowded, especially at peak times of travel. That's why we're making some changes.

We’re reducing the number of lounge eVouchers you can earn each year, as well as increasing the spending threshold for earning the vouchers.

Changes to your Airpoints credit card
From 10 July 2019, you will receive a pair of Lounge eVouchers when you spend $30,000* per anniversary year on your ******* Airpoints ******* Platinum.

In addition, these eVouchers will now be capped at two pairs per year.

These changes have been made to deliver calm and comfortable spaces and improve your experience when you do use our lounges.”

So you get effectively $120 worth of lounge passes for every $30,000 you spend capped at $60,000 (4x passes). Does seem a little tight considering that many are already frequent flyers or koru members and those passes effectively go to waste. The old amount was simply 2x passes for each $20k spent. The lounge needs to be bigger which NZ wants to do but AIAL have been holding them back.
59 types. 41 countries. 24 airlines.
 
NZ6
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Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:29 am

Zkpilot wrote:
So you get effectively $120 worth of lounge passes for every $30,000 you spend capped at $60,000 (4x passes). Does seem a little tight considering that many are already frequent flyers or koru members and those passes effectively go to waste. The old amount was simply 2x passes for each $20k spent. The lounge needs to be bigger which NZ wants to do but AIAL have been holding them back.


A year ago we were complaining the airline's lounges were too full, now the 'free vouchers' you get for spending money on everyday items through a credit card which is giving people this access is too 'tight'? What option would you prefer.. I mean the only other option is a bigger lounge or more lounges but....

Given some of these passes are used by guests who actually never or rarely fly...

Also, in your scenario, someone who has spent $30,000 or $60,000 on their credit card, you've missed the $461 and $923 of Airpoints Dollars earned on top of the lounge passes... are those rates too low, well point the finger at the bank. Essentially that's what they're willing to buy you for each $100 spent with them.

If you're flying enough and want more passes or lounge access is what you value the most, spend $31,460 and you'll earn enough points to renew your 1 year Koru membership and then get unlimited access plus those benefits.

You say "that many are already frequent flyers or koru members and those passes effectively go to waste", do you actually believe the airline has done this without looking at how many are accessing the lounge based on the type of eVoucher used and filtering HVC's out etc? This, I can only assume is a massive assumption.

Finally, you've made an assumption here that AKL lounge needs to be bigger, this effects all NZ lounges not just AKL.
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:39 pm

NZ6 wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
So you get effectively $120 worth of lounge passes for every $30,000 you spend capped at $60,000 (4x passes). Does seem a little tight considering that many are already frequent flyers or koru members and those passes effectively go to waste. The old amount was simply 2x passes for each $20k spent. The lounge needs to be bigger which NZ wants to do but AIAL have been holding them back.


A year ago we were complaining the airline's lounges were too full, now the 'free vouchers' you get for spending money on everyday items through a credit card which is giving people this access is too 'tight'? What option would you prefer.. I mean the only other option is a bigger lounge or more lounges but....

Given some of these passes are used by guests who actually never or rarely fly...

Also, in your scenario, someone who has spent $30,000 or $60,000 on their credit card, you've missed the $461 and $923 of Airpoints Dollars earned on top of the lounge passes... are those rates too low, well point the finger at the bank. Essentially that's what they're willing to buy you for each $100 spent with them.

If you're flying enough and want more passes or lounge access is what you value the most, spend $31,460 and you'll earn enough points to renew your 1 year Koru membership and then get unlimited access plus those benefits.

You say "that many are already frequent flyers or koru members and those passes effectively go to waste", do you actually believe the airline has done this without looking at how many are accessing the lounge based on the type of eVoucher used and filtering HVC's out etc? This, I can only assume is a massive assumption.

Finally, you've made an assumption here that AKL lounge needs to be bigger, this effects all NZ lounges not just AKL.

Yes you are correct that it is up to the banks to be more generous, however I’m sure NZ does earn nicely from them. Tight as in comparison to the benefits that other cards have.

And yes AKL is where the main issue lies. The other lounges don’t really have the same problem.

No don’t construe this as an attack on NZ. Far from it. I do think it is the banks being greedy as per usual her in New Zealand (they almost single handily account for the current account deficit after all). Likewise AIAL is probably doing its usual squeezing the crap out of an asset rather than investing in the future. It is disappointing though. For me personally yeah I’ll probably get my pair of passes but likely won’t get the 2nd pair now (which I probably would have done under the old scheme).
59 types. 41 countries. 24 airlines.
 
tu2130
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:49 pm

D-AVYR (MSN 8839) (Sorry if I got the reg wrong) bt. ZK-NNF performed a taxi & rto in XFW which means this plane might be on it's way to NZ soon. Then (MSN 8908) is next Can I get an update on ZK-MVZ (MSN 600)?
Air New Zealand. Proud to fly.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:19 pm

Zkpilot wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
So you get effectively $120 worth of lounge passes for every $30,000 you spend capped at $60,000 (4x passes). Does seem a little tight considering that many are already frequent flyers or koru members and those passes effectively go to waste. The old amount was simply 2x passes for each $20k spent. The lounge needs to be bigger which NZ wants to do but AIAL have been holding them back.


A year ago we were complaining the airline's lounges were too full, now the 'free vouchers' you get for spending money on everyday items through a credit card which is giving people this access is too 'tight'? What option would you prefer.. I mean the only other option is a bigger lounge or more lounges but....

Given some of these passes are used by guests who actually never or rarely fly...

Also, in your scenario, someone who has spent $30,000 or $60,000 on their credit card, you've missed the $461 and $923 of Airpoints Dollars earned on top of the lounge passes... are those rates too low, well point the finger at the bank. Essentially that's what they're willing to buy you for each $100 spent with them.

If you're flying enough and want more passes or lounge access is what you value the most, spend $31,460 and you'll earn enough points to renew your 1 year Koru membership and then get unlimited access plus those benefits.

You say "that many are already frequent flyers or koru members and those passes effectively go to waste", do you actually believe the airline has done this without looking at how many are accessing the lounge based on the type of eVoucher used and filtering HVC's out etc? This, I can only assume is a massive assumption.

Finally, you've made an assumption here that AKL lounge needs to be bigger, this effects all NZ lounges not just AKL.

Yes you are correct that it is up to the banks to be more generous, however I’m sure NZ does earn nicely from them. Tight as in comparison to the benefits that other cards have.

And yes AKL is where the main issue lies. The other lounges don’t really have the same problem.

No don’t construe this as an attack on NZ. Far from it. I do think it is the banks being greedy as per usual her in New Zealand (they almost single handily account for the current account deficit after all). Likewise AIAL is probably doing its usual squeezing the crap out of an asset rather than investing in the future. It is disappointing though. For me personally yeah I’ll probably get my pair of passes but likely won’t get the 2nd pair now (which I probably would have done under the old scheme).


It just blows my mind, the airline seems to be buggered no matter what it does in this forum. I'm not defending the airline either, I dropped Koru based on these passes but will likely now have to buy and then renew Koru, so I guess I'm negatively impacted but I'm also hoping that reducing X number of eVouchers issued will go some way to providing a more comfortable space for the airlines most valuable flyers.

Make a choice, do you want loads lounge passes issued to credit card holders or spacious airline lounges with ample seating etc.

You're highlighting that NZ earns 'nicely' from these agreements, yet you've overlooked that Westpac (the Bank I've used in my above example) had a $1.017 Billion dollar profit in 2018 (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-fin ... d=12154636).

The airline is essentially selling the APD to the bank and the bank is the ultimate winner, looking at this World MasterCard, you're expected to spend 30,000 to get two lounge passes, you'll also earn $461 worth of APD. Yet there's an interest rate of 16.95% and an annual account fee of $390, another card has half the earn rate, a fee and 21% interest rate.

Don't get me wrong, the airline does nicely. It creates 'engaged members' who earn points on a day to day basis whereas the old system only rewarded and engaged people when they travelled. Which for some is once a year.

If you think lounge congestion is limited to AKL then you can only be basing this on mainstream media from last year. there are at least half a dozen lounges who have practices in place for when congestion hits them and some of the regional lounges for example simply don't have the space to manage the swell of unexpected eVoucher use.

From a snobby and unrelated perspective, I've used NZ's lounges for about 20 years, I believe the standard of dress and behaviour in the lounge has dramatically dropped of late, I believe the timing of this is around the entry of eVouchers and can only be put down to the type of traveller being granted access. How Gold and Elite have tolerated this I have no idea.
 
NPL8800
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:39 pm

Structural steel complete and roofing to be finished by the end of July. Expected opening in dec/jan. Images show just how small the old terminal was compared to the new structure. Nice to see proper future proofing and the naysayers ignored for once and a facility that will meet the needs of the region for many years to come.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-ne ... 4iG3j5zr1w
 
PA515
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:54 pm

tu2130 wrote:
D-AVYR (MSN 8839) (Sorry if I got the reg wrong) bt. ZK-NNF performed a taxi & rto in XFW which means this plane might be on it's way to NZ soon. Then (MSN 8908) is next Can I get an update on ZK-MVZ (MSN 600)?


ZK-NNF (msn 8839) D-AYAR did a Taxi / RTO on Fri 28 Jun and again on Mon 01 Jul, so I would expect a first flight tonight. It's about five days between the first and second flights, so mid July it should arrive in NZ.

ZK-MVZ (msn 1562) F-WWET had it's second (14 min) flight on Mon 01 Jul from LFBO (TLS) to LFBF (Francazal). This surprised me as ZK-MVZ is already painted and Francazal has paint hangars but is mostly used for storage. https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/f-wwet

PA515
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6873
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:22 pm

PA515 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
So it looks like 789s ZK-NZD/NZE are still grounded. Has NZE been repaired since being hit by a ground vehicle? Though it’s engines were removed and put in NZJ, is NZF on track to have engines by September?

ZK-NZD has been back in service for a while.

ZK-NBT wrote:
ZK-OKJ the 2nd leased 772 hasn’t flown in some time, I’m presuming it’s probably leaving soon?!

Most likely.

ZK-NBT wrote:
ZK-OKT the leased BR 77W is still flying, but for how much longer? And is there any possibility that NZ look at a longer lease? Ie 3-5 years with a repaint and cabin reconfiguration? Or not needed? Given there are no long haul aircraft planned for delivery from late 2019 through 2022, there is the odd route or HKG where they are retiming it which frees

It has been mentioned elsewhere that ZK-OKT will stay until late October 2019. Same source that in Dec 2018 said Air NZ might get the 787-10 with GE engines.

PA515


Typo sorry the first part should have read ZK-NZE/NZF.

Hopefully no more issues going forward.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:55 pm

One change I can see and it’s minor is NZ5 LAX-AKL arriving 45 before NZ1, 0600 rather thank the previous 0730 in NW. I guess NZ6 has always left 2-3hrs before NZ2 ex AKL. You do hear of people doing NZ6 AKL-LAX then NZ2 LAX-LHR, I always thought ex LAX they had NZ5 after NZ1 intentionally, probably more it’s just always been that way.

It does give more ground time in AKL for that 77W however.
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:31 pm

NZ6 wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
NZ6 wrote:

A year ago we were complaining the airline's lounges were too full, now the 'free vouchers' you get for spending money on everyday items through a credit card which is giving people this access is too 'tight'? What option would you prefer.. I mean the only other option is a bigger lounge or more lounges but....

Given some of these passes are used by guests who actually never or rarely fly...

Also, in your scenario, someone who has spent $30,000 or $60,000 on their credit card, you've missed the $461 and $923 of Airpoints Dollars earned on top of the lounge passes... are those rates too low, well point the finger at the bank. Essentially that's what they're willing to buy you for each $100 spent with them.

If you're flying enough and want more passes or lounge access is what you value the most, spend $31,460 and you'll earn enough points to renew your 1 year Koru membership and then get unlimited access plus those benefits.

You say "that many are already frequent flyers or koru members and those passes effectively go to waste", do you actually believe the airline has done this without looking at how many are accessing the lounge based on the type of eVoucher used and filtering HVC's out etc? This, I can only assume is a massive assumption.

Finally, you've made an assumption here that AKL lounge needs to be bigger, this effects all NZ lounges not just AKL.

Yes you are correct that it is up to the banks to be more generous, however I’m sure NZ does earn nicely from them. Tight as in comparison to the benefits that other cards have.

And yes AKL is where the main issue lies. The other lounges don’t really have the same problem.

No don’t construe this as an attack on NZ. Far from it. I do think it is the banks being greedy as per usual her in New Zealand (they almost single handily account for the current account deficit after all). Likewise AIAL is probably doing its usual squeezing the crap out of an asset rather than investing in the future. It is disappointing though. For me personally yeah I’ll probably get my pair of passes but likely won’t get the 2nd pair now (which I probably would have done under the old scheme).


It just blows my mind, the airline seems to be buggered no matter what it does in this forum. I'm not defending the airline either, I dropped Koru based on these passes but will likely now have to buy and then renew Koru, so I guess I'm negatively impacted but I'm also hoping that reducing X number of eVouchers issued will go some way to providing a more comfortable space for the airlines most valuable flyers.

Make a choice, do you want loads lounge passes issued to credit card holders or spacious airline lounges with ample seating etc.

You're highlighting that NZ earns 'nicely' from these agreements, yet you've overlooked that Westpac (the Bank I've used in my above example) had a $1.017 Billion dollar profit in 2018 (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-fin ... d=12154636).

The airline is essentially selling the APD to the bank and the bank is the ultimate winner, looking at this World MasterCard, you're expected to spend 30,000 to get two lounge passes, you'll also earn $461 worth of APD. Yet there's an interest rate of 16.95% and an annual account fee of $390, another card has half the earn rate, a fee and 21% interest rate.

Don't get me wrong, the airline does nicely. It creates 'engaged members' who earn points on a day to day basis whereas the old system only rewarded and engaged people when they travelled. Which for some is once a year.

If you think lounge congestion is limited to AKL then you can only be basing this on mainstream media from last year. there are at least half a dozen lounges who have practices in place for when congestion hits them and some of the regional lounges for example simply don't have the space to manage the swell of unexpected eVoucher use.

From a snobby and unrelated perspective, I've used NZ's lounges for about 20 years, I believe the standard of dress and behaviour in the lounge has dramatically dropped of late, I believe the timing of this is around the entry of eVouchers and can only be put down to the type of traveller being granted access. How Gold and Elite have tolerated this I have no idea.

Um no I haven’t overlooked that Westpac (or the others) are creaming it (as mentioned they are all almost singlehandedly responsible for our current account deficit due to sending outrageous profit levels offshore). Nor do I think the “standards” as you put it are down as a result of platinum card holders having lounge passes. More like people are travelling more and getting more koru memberships. Air travel volumes have grown substantially while the size and number of lounges has in general not kept up either here or around the world. NZ should probably try to take over the Glamp Grounds (or the large space next to it) and turn that into a lounge for lounge users wanting to bring kids in.
AKL has chronic congestion, most other lounges might get busy on occasion.
59 types. 41 countries. 24 airlines.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:39 am

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -oct-2019/

KE dropping NAN doesn’t exactly belong here, however I thought I would add it for a couple of reasons, not sure it needs it own thread, and it was for a long period extended to AKL 2-3 days a week until 2003, IIRC this started around 1994 with M11 equipment then used 744/773/772 and possibly 747 classics as well, there was a brief suspension around 1998/99 due to the Asian Financial crisis. I am partly surprised it’s lasted as long as it has with mainly A330 equipment 2-3 weekly, maybe a part of KE tightening its belts? I’d struggle to see it being overly profitable. But perhaps a chance for FJ?

Also partly surprised they didn’t use it at some point to try CHC which was operated until around 1998 via AKL then reinstated seasonally in 2003/06 DEC-FEB using 744/772. A NS 3 weekly ICN-NAN-CHC with say 2 weekly in NW along with a seasonal non stop ICN-CHC 2 weekly so 4 weekly CHC in NW overall. Not sure I can see CHC at all for a while now though OZ were to have run a weekly 772 ICN-CHC charter for 7 weeks in 2017/18 but pulled it quite late, not sure why exactly, if it was anything to do with their own financial state? Or general lack of interest?

KE still have a few tag ons in Europe, though again how profitable any of them are I don’t no and I wonder if we will see them disappear over the next wee while.

At this stage KE have loaded a daily 748 for the entire NW for AKL, IIRC it was daily last year as well but with a 77W, previously they did 5 weekly 77W in NOV and daily 748 DEC-FEB with the 77W in March often 5 weekly. So prepared for NZs entry to ICN. Interesting times.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:54 am

Zkpilot wrote:
Um no I haven’t overlooked that Westpac (or the others) are creaming it (as mentioned they are all almost singlehandedly responsible for our current account deficit due to sending outrageous profit levels offshore). Nor do I think the “standards” as you put it are down as a result of platinum card holders having lounge passes. More like people are travelling more and getting more koru memberships. Air travel volumes have grown substantially while the size and number of lounges has in general not kept up either here or around the world. NZ should probably try to take over the Glamp Grounds (or the large space next to it) and turn that into a lounge for lounge users wanting to bring kids in.
AKL has chronic congestion, most other lounges might get busy on occasion.


In post #11 you highlighted that you need to spend $30,000 and get two lounge passes or $60,000 and get 4 which you then labelled as being tight. This from a Bank which from its New Zealand arm returned a profit of over $1 Billion in a single financial year, let alone its parent company.

- The Standards have dropped, not solely due to the Credit Card use but the timing, in my opinion, is aligned to when they opened it up to the general public through other schemes. When you limit access to Premium Cabins, Freqnect Travellers or those who Purchase a $500 annual membership, you appeal to a different market. As a single example, It's very easy for the 'average person' to have a platinum card, receive two eVouchers then turn up at AKL for their annual Fiji holiday in July taking in their two kids who behaviour like the novelty it is, overloading their plate of food and making a mess all while wear in jandals and board shorts.

As for the lounge size, additional lounges and lounges designed for kids etc - this is a cost to the business, a significant cost at that. One which isn't paid for by the banks through the insurance of eVouchers. Will larger and additional lounges create more loyalty and improved passenger revenue. No!

You say "AKL has chronic congestion, most other lounges might get busy on occasion.", I've been to AKL plenty of times where it's wide open. It's dependant on the time of day and day of the week. But the lack of available space at times has been acknowledged by the airline and there are plans for a second lounge in the near future. AKL's issues are no different to your comments on other lounges where they get busy on occasions, AKL just sees it more often due to early morning, mid-morning and evening peaks along with the slightly longer dwell time in the lounge due to higher connecting ratio. NAN, RAR, SYD, MEL all face the same issues during their peak periods. There are also other domestic lounges in this same position.

If the airline issued 20,000 eVouchers and reduced this to 8,000, that extra 12,000 guests removed from the lounge, how much impact do you think that'll have? (data is an example only)

Like always here, we want more than that's economically sensible and responsible. Saying we should have multiple lounges or lounges which are bigger even though it'll likely double the OPEX cost and generate almost no additional revenue for the business I mad! Especially when part of the issue is caused by Banking Partners.

My final thought on this is one I had when these cards first came out. Why allow them access in the first place! Now we've gone there, there are thousands of people getting entry into a lounge which is now expected and it's seen as being tight when the criteria changes. This space should be reserved for very frequent travellers and premium cabin guests... Do this right, how big do the lounges need to be?
 
cchan
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:54 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
ZK-OKJ the 2nd leased 772 hasn’t flown in some time, I’m presuming it’s probably leaving soon?!


I have booked a trip to TBU end of August, and it shows 777-200ER, this seems to be until mid-October. I guess this will be ZK-OKJ?
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:00 am

NZ6 wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
Um no I haven’t overlooked that Westpac (or the others) are creaming it (as mentioned they are all almost singlehandedly responsible for our current account deficit due to sending outrageous profit levels offshore). Nor do I think the “standards” as you put it are down as a result of platinum card holders having lounge passes. More like people are travelling more and getting more koru memberships. Air travel volumes have grown substantially while the size and number of lounges has in general not kept up either here or around the world. NZ should probably try to take over the Glamp Grounds (or the large space next to it) and turn that into a lounge for lounge users wanting to bring kids in.
AKL has chronic congestion, most other lounges might get busy on occasion.


In post #11 you highlighted that you need to spend $30,000 and get two lounge passes or $60,000 and get 4 which you then labelled as being tight. This from a Bank which from its New Zealand arm returned a profit of over $1 Billion in a single financial year, let alone its parent company.

- The Standards have dropped, not solely due to the Credit Card use but the timing, in my opinion, is aligned to when they opened it up to the general public through other schemes. When you limit access to Premium Cabins, Freqnect Travellers or those who Purchase a $500 annual membership, you appeal to a different market. As a single example, It's very easy for the 'average person' to have a platinum card, receive two eVouchers then turn up at AKL for their annual Fiji holiday in July taking in their two kids who behaviour like the novelty it is, overloading their plate of food and making a mess all while wear in jandals and board shorts.

As for the lounge size, additional lounges and lounges designed for kids etc - this is a cost to the business, a significant cost at that. One which isn't paid for by the banks through the insurance of eVouchers. Will larger and additional lounges create more loyalty and improved passenger revenue. No!

You say "AKL has chronic congestion, most other lounges might get busy on occasion.", I've been to AKL plenty of times where it's wide open. It's dependant on the time of day and day of the week. But the lack of available space at times has been acknowledged by the airline and there are plans for a second lounge in the near future. AKL's issues are no different to your comments on other lounges where they get busy on occasions, AKL just sees it more often due to early morning, mid-morning and evening peaks along with the slightly longer dwell time in the lounge due to higher connecting ratio. NAN, RAR, SYD, MEL all face the same issues during their peak periods. There are also other domestic lounges in this same position.

If the airline issued 20,000 eVouchers and reduced this to 8,000, that extra 12,000 guests removed from the lounge, how much impact do you think that'll have? (data is an example only)

Like always here, we want more than that's economically sensible and responsible. Saying we should have multiple lounges or lounges which are bigger even though it'll likely double the OPEX cost and generate almost no additional revenue for the business I mad! Especially when part of the issue is caused by Banking Partners.

My final thought on this is one I had when these cards first came out. Why allow them access in the first place! Now we've gone there, there are thousands of people getting entry into a lounge which is now expected and it's seen as being tight when the criteria changes. This space should be reserved for very frequent travellers and premium cabin guests... Do this right, how big do the lounges need to be?

And again you misinterpret my post and completely ignore my next comment (in the same post) that said: “I do think it is the banks being greedy as per usual her in New Zealand (they almost single handily account for the current account deficit after all).” and then proceed to say effectively the same thing? :roll:

As for AKL you have been lucky then as I have only ever seen it full or close to full except for the very late night departure. AKL is NZs hub so it not only has O&D pax using the lounge but also transit pax (Aussies and Americans mostly) as well as being used by other airlines too.

I don’t know what world you live in, but most Kiwis either don’t qualify, can’t afford, or can’t justify getting a platinum card. The fees alone put most off. Yes handing out vouchers for card spend encourages more lounge users...however as mentioned most platinum card holders are likely already frequent flyers or have koru membership already and NZ of course gets paid for those vouchers.
NZ have publicly said they would like to expand the lounge but it is AIAL holding them back. They haven’t said anything about other lounges (WLG is currently being replaced).
59 types. 41 countries. 24 airlines.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:44 am

cchan wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
ZK-OKJ the 2nd leased 772 hasn’t flown in some time, I’m presuming it’s probably leaving soon?!


I have booked a trip to TBU end of August, and it shows 777-200ER, this seems to be until mid-October. I guess this will be ZK-OKJ?


772s go to TBU all the time, today was a 77W, OKJ shows the same code as the NZ 772s AFAIK? The BR 77W does say 777-300 as opposed to the NZ frames say 777-300ER. OKJ hasn’t flown for some weeks now, however we are into the peak season for Pacific Island travel now so maybe it’s still floating around , it hasn’t left the country I know that much.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:07 am

Zkpilot wrote:
And again you misinterpret my post and completely ignore my next comment (in the same post) that said: “I do think it is the banks being greedy as per usual her in New Zealand (they almost single handily account for the current account deficit after all).” and then proceed to say effectively the same thing? :roll:

As for AKL you have been lucky then as I have only ever seen it full or close to full except for the very late night departure. AKL is NZs hub so it not only has O&D pax using the lounge but also transit pax (Aussies and Americans mostly) as well as being used by other airlines too.

I don’t know what world you live in, but most Kiwis either don’t qualify, can’t afford, or can’t justify getting a platinum card. The fees alone put most off. Yes handing out vouchers for card spend encourages more lounge users...however as mentioned most platinum card holders are likely already frequent flyers or have koru membership already and NZ of course gets paid for those vouchers.
NZ have publicly said they would like to expand the lounge but it is AIAL holding them back. They haven’t said anything about other lounges (WLG is currently being replaced).


I didn't misinterpret anything, you said it's tight, yet given the bank's profit injunction with the previous and current moaning of lounge capacity issues, your issue is contradictory. What is it that you want? As I've said, to me it feels it's about wanting a premier lounge but something we can easily access through everyday living. No such thing exists.

I live in the current world, there are literally thousands of adult Kiwis out there with Platinum cards some are Airpoints others with our reward programs... the number of eVouchers given out is huge. Thankfully some expire.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6873
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:32 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
cchan wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
ZK-OKJ the 2nd leased 772 hasn’t flown in some time, I’m presuming it’s probably leaving soon?!


I have booked a trip to TBU end of August, and it shows 777-200ER, this seems to be until mid-October. I guess this will be ZK-OKJ?


772s go to TBU all the time, today was a 77W, OKJ shows the same code as the NZ 772s AFAIK? The BR 77W does say 777-300 as opposed to the NZ frames say 777-300ER. OKJ hasn’t flown for some weeks now, however we are into the peak season for Pacific Island travel now so maybe it’s still floating around , it hasn’t left the country I know that much.


I did just have a quick look and it did as you say, say 777-200ER as opposed to the usual 777-200, also said 77S.
 
PA515
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:40 am

PA515 wrote:
ZK-NNF (msn 8839) D-AYAR did a Taxi / RTO on Fri 28 Jun and again on Mon 01 Jul, so I would expect a first flight tonight. It's about five days between the first and second flights, so mid July it should arrive in NZ.


ZK-NNF (msn 8839) has had the test registration changed from D-AYAR back to D-AVYR.
This photo was taken yesterday. https://www.flickr.com/photos/xfwspotter/48171238077/

PA515
 
Gasman
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:04 am

The lounge issue is far from a problem unique to NZ. It's been ten years at least since business class lounges the world over have been havens of service, peace and solitude. Over the same period however, the comfort within main terminal areas has improved out of sight. For the price of a coffee or small meal these days you'll often get more comfort, space, and better food than you will in the lounges. It's as if the retail outlets have stolen some of the lounge market, but the Platinum card holder on his once a year trip to Fiji with the kids hasn't yet realised it.

So before one can answer the question of "who should get access" you need to answer the question of "what role do the lounges have going forward from 2019"? And in terms of the second question, it's going to be impossible to please hordes of travelers, all of whom feel entitled.

I'd advocate stepping the lounges up a notch in terms of comfort and service. Eliminate credit card access and the like. Restrict free access to true top tier membership (ie. Gold Elite in NZ's case) and business class passengers. But open up pay a pay at the door option for any NZ traveler who wants to take it up - space permitting of course.
 
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aerorobnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:35 am

ZK-NBT wrote:

I did just have a quick look and it did as you say, say 777-200ER as opposed to the usual 777-200, also said 77S.


77S is ZK-OKJ. I see on the 23rd and 31st it is operating (No premium economy for sale is big clue too)
ZK-OKJ currently due back in service on about the 15th to SYD
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:30 am

Gasman wrote:
The lounge issue is far from a problem unique to NZ. It's been ten years at least since business class lounges the world over have been havens of service, peace and solitude. Over the same period however, the comfort within main terminal areas has improved out of sight. For the price of a coffee or small meal these days you'll often get more comfort, space, and better food than you will in the lounges. It's as if the retail outlets have stolen some of the lounge market, but the Platinum card holder on his once a year trip to Fiji with the kids hasn't yet realised it.

So before one can answer the question of "who should get access" you need to answer the question of "what role do the lounges have going forward from 2019"? And in terms of the second question, it's going to be impossible to please hordes of travelers, all of whom feel entitled.

I'd advocate stepping the lounges up a notch in terms of comfort and service. Eliminate credit card access and the like. Restrict free access to true top tier membership (ie. Gold Elite in NZ's case) and business class passengers. But open up pay a pay at the door option for any NZ traveler who wants to take it up - space permitting of course.


- I find most lounges vastly more comfortable than the main terminal which is why I've used Koru and more recently eVouchers. The seat you will sit on; a soft lounge chair vs a food court chair is a starter but more importantly to me, I find the pace of life in the lounge slower and more relaxing than the busy shopping mall which we call the main terminal. Don't get me wrong either, I love a good wander around a terminal, a touch of plane spotting and exploring the duty-free shops. I guess it depends on my mood, I'll normally pop in, have a coffee, beer or wine, a light snack do a bit of reading before heading off on a wander before my flight. It's a great way to relax after doing the airport commute, check-in, customer and security etc. Often you've been on the go for over an hour and it's a nice way to take a load off knowing you've made it.

- I'll agree the main terminal comfort is improving overall and so are the facilities at most. But when it comes to relaxing and filling a few hours, unless you're going to walk around the entire time it's either food courts metal / plastic seating, the industrial-grade padded seating you see in at some gates or spending money in either a bar or a coffee shop...

- You say the retail outlets have stolen some of the market yet, on the other hand, some are saying NZ's lounge is at quote; "chronic congestion"... which is it?

- In that example of the family going to Fiji, they will always want the lounge, it's a 'once in a lifetime' type of opportunity in their eyes, got something for 'free' it's a 'luxury' item and a real 'novelty'. Heck, that family could also easily spend over $50 at an airport food outlet.

- The larger airports do have more options I appreciate that but in general food options at airports are still very limited... Last time I was in Fiji; I paid near on $30 FJD for a toastie and a beer!
 
Gasman
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:53 am

NZ6 wrote:
Gasman wrote:
The lounge issue is far from a problem unique to NZ. It's been ten years at least since business class lounges the world over have been havens of service, peace and solitude. Over the same period however, the comfort within main terminal areas has improved out of sight. For the price of a coffee or small meal these days you'll often get more comfort, space, and better food than you will in the lounges. It's as if the retail outlets have stolen some of the lounge market, but the Platinum card holder on his once a year trip to Fiji with the kids hasn't yet realised it.

So before one can answer the question of "who should get access" you need to answer the question of "what role do the lounges have going forward from 2019"? And in terms of the second question, it's going to be impossible to please hordes of travelers, all of whom feel entitled.

I'd advocate stepping the lounges up a notch in terms of comfort and service. Eliminate credit card access and the like. Restrict free access to true top tier membership (ie. Gold Elite in NZ's case) and business class passengers. But open up pay a pay at the door option for any NZ traveler who wants to take it up - space permitting of course.


- I find most lounges vastly more comfortable than the main terminal which is why I've used Koru and more recently eVouchers. The seat you will sit on; a soft lounge chair vs a food court chair is a starter but more importantly to me, I find the pace of life in the lounge slower and more relaxing than the busy shopping mall which we call the main terminal. Don't get me wrong either, I love a good wander around a terminal, a touch of plane spotting and exploring the duty-free shops. I guess it depends on my mood, I'll normally pop in, have a coffee, beer or wine, a light snack do a bit of reading before heading off on a wander before my flight. It's a great way to relax after doing the airport commute, check-in, customer and security etc. Often you've been on the go for over an hour and it's a nice way to take a load off knowing you've made it.

- I'll agree the main terminal comfort is improving overall and so are the facilities at most. But when it comes to relaxing and filling a few hours, unless you're going to walk around the entire time it's either food courts metal / plastic seating, the industrial-grade padded seating you see in at some gates or spending money in either a bar or a coffee shop...

- You say the retail outlets have stolen some of the market yet, on the other hand, some are saying NZ's lounge is at quote; "chronic congestion"... which is it?

- In that example of the family going to Fiji, they will always want the lounge, it's a 'once in a lifetime' type of opportunity in their eyes, got something for 'free' it's a 'luxury' item and a real 'novelty'. Heck, that family could also easily spend over $50 at an airport food outlet.

- The larger airports do have more options I appreciate that but in general food options at airports are still very limited... Last time I was in Fiji; I paid near on $30 FJD for a toastie and a beer!


Indeed.

Whatever one's position is on this, I think we'd all agree that that "Congratulations. You're in charge of collating feedback on the Koru lounges and their access and coming up with a plan going forward" is a sentence that no-one working at NZ wants to hear.....
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:18 am

aerorobnz wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

I did just have a quick look and it did as you say, say 777-200ER as opposed to the usual 777-200, also said 77S.


77S is ZK-OKJ. I see on the 23rd and 31st it is operating (No premium economy for sale is big clue too)
ZK-OKJ currently due back in service on about the 15th to SYD



Right ok, hasn’t flown for so long I thought it must have finished.

I note ZK-NZF was under tow near the international apron this afternoon, no idea where it went after that.
 
a7ala
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:05 am

JQ suspending CHC-SYD 5/week from 15Oct noting it had been commercially challenging for some time. That plus the VA suspension on the same sector is a significant capacity loss. I guess the EK A380 is having a big impact in the market.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/113 ... ey-service
 
nz2
Posts: 248
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:11 am

I am Gold Elite and am pleased they are reducing the numbers we can bring in, I mean the wife gets her own Elite partner access and another 5 guests meaning 7 pax getting access on one FF is OTT especially when often they are all kids. I think it is only 3 going forward so that should help ease pressure and I agree with the increase of voucher threshold increase (selfishly I admit) so they will be harder to obtain. I have been getting quite a number of vouchers, about 6 per year which of course are never used. Over recent years I have always had to sit out in the garden (due to no window seats available inside) which gives great views but can be chilly - first world problems though !
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:06 am

nz2 wrote:
I am Gold Elite and am pleased they are reducing the numbers we can bring in, I mean the wife gets her own Elite partner access and another 5 guests meaning 7 pax getting access on one FF is OTT especially when often they are all kids. I think it is only 3 going forward so that should help ease pressure and I agree with the increase of voucher threshold increase (selfishly I admit) so they will be harder to obtain. I have been getting quite a number of vouchers, about 6 per year which of course are never used. Over recent years I have always had to sit out in the garden (due to no window seats available inside) which gives great views but can be chilly - first world problems though !


Your thoughts are actually very common. As someone who travels a lot, you deserve a place where you can relax, do some work and enjoy some complimentary food and beverages before your flight.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, Koru has become too affordable and it should cost a few hundred more than it does and not be payable by Airpoints.

The airline has also unfortunately commercialised lounge access by making it a benefit from non-airline accruals. If I was Gold Elite, I would be ropable.

By reviewing eVouchers, Koru/HVC guest entitlements and reviewing Koru fees on top of ensuring Silver, Gold and Elite levels are proportionate to what the most frequent travellers fly will all go a long way to resolving some of the issues faced.

As I've said before, it's not about building it bigger, the first issue is too many people are in the lounge who aren't in there for the core reason the airline has a lounge, that being premium cabin and very frequent high-value flyers.

Being in the lounge as Wesptac Purchased $500 APD after you spent $30,000 on your credit card is not the same as an Elite who is on an aircraft.. Oh I don't know, let's say two to three times a week if they are primarily flying domestic and probably spendning tens of thousands with the airline.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1053
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:06 am

Gasman wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
Gasman wrote:
The lounge issue is far from a problem unique to NZ. It's been ten years at least since business class lounges the world over have been havens of service, peace and solitude. Over the same period however, the comfort within main terminal areas has improved out of sight. For the price of a coffee or small meal these days you'll often get more comfort, space, and better food than you will in the lounges. It's as if the retail outlets have stolen some of the lounge market, but the Platinum card holder on his once a year trip to Fiji with the kids hasn't yet realised it.

So before one can answer the question of "who should get access" you need to answer the question of "what role do the lounges have going forward from 2019"? And in terms of the second question, it's going to be impossible to please hordes of travelers, all of whom feel entitled.

I'd advocate stepping the lounges up a notch in terms of comfort and service. Eliminate credit card access and the like. Restrict free access to true top tier membership (ie. Gold Elite in NZ's case) and business class passengers. But open up pay a pay at the door option for any NZ traveler who wants to take it up - space permitting of course.


- I find most lounges vastly more comfortable than the main terminal which is why I've used Koru and more recently eVouchers. The seat you will sit on; a soft lounge chair vs a food court chair is a starter but more importantly to me, I find the pace of life in the lounge slower and more relaxing than the busy shopping mall which we call the main terminal. Don't get me wrong either, I love a good wander around a terminal, a touch of plane spotting and exploring the duty-free shops. I guess it depends on my mood, I'll normally pop in, have a coffee, beer or wine, a light snack do a bit of reading before heading off on a wander before my flight. It's a great way to relax after doing the airport commute, check-in, customer and security etc. Often you've been on the go for over an hour and it's a nice way to take a load off knowing you've made it.

- I'll agree the main terminal comfort is improving overall and so are the facilities at most. But when it comes to relaxing and filling a few hours, unless you're going to walk around the entire time it's either food courts metal / plastic seating, the industrial-grade padded seating you see in at some gates or spending money in either a bar or a coffee shop...

- You say the retail outlets have stolen some of the market yet, on the other hand, some are saying NZ's lounge is at quote; "chronic congestion"... which is it?

- In that example of the family going to Fiji, they will always want the lounge, it's a 'once in a lifetime' type of opportunity in their eyes, got something for 'free' it's a 'luxury' item and a real 'novelty'. Heck, that family could also easily spend over $50 at an airport food outlet.

- The larger airports do have more options I appreciate that but in general food options at airports are still very limited... Last time I was in Fiji; I paid near on $30 FJD for a toastie and a beer!


Indeed.

Whatever one's position is on this, I think we'd all agree that that "Congratulations. You're in charge of collating feedback on the Koru lounges and their access and coming up with a plan going forward" is a sentence that no-one working at NZ wants to hear.....


As above, I don't think it's as hard as you'd think to resolve.
 
Gasman
Posts: 2048
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:12 am

nz2 wrote:
I agree with the increase of voucher threshold increase (selfishly I admit) so they will be harder to obtain.


Not selfish at all - human nature. Every person in that lounge - even the person who is there for no other reason than their credit card e-voucher, believes:

- that their right to be in the lounge is absolute and incontestable
- anyone else that is in the lounge is an inconvenience, probably doesn't deserve to be there at all (or at least, not as much as you do) and is not to be trusted. Particularly if they've got children with them (and the fact you might've brought your own kids in before makes no difference).

I'm sure the reception staff at lounges could tell most psychologists a thing or two about human behaviour.
 
nz2
Posts: 248
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:38 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:21 am

NZ6 wrote:

Your thoughts are actually very common. As someone who travels a lot, you deserve a place where you can relax, do some work and enjoy some complimentary food and beverages before your flight.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, Koru has become too affordable and it should cost a few hundred more than it does and not be payable by Airpoints.

The airline has also unfortunately commercialised lounge access by making it a benefit from non-airline accruals. If I was Gold Elite, I would be ropable.

By reviewing eVouchers, Koru/HVC guest entitlements and reviewing Koru fees on top of ensuring Silver, Gold and Elite levels are proportionate to what the most frequent travellers fly will all go a long way to resolving some of the issues faced.

As I've said before, it's not about building it bigger, the first issue is too many people are in the lounge who aren't in there for the core reason the airline has a lounge, that being premium cabin and very frequent high-value flyers.

Being in the lounge as Wesptac Purchased $500 APD after you spent $30,000 on your credit card is not the same as an Elite who is on an aircraft.. Oh I don't know, let's say two to three times a week if they are primarily flying domestic and probably spendning tens of thousands with the airline.


I quite agree, I have over the years spent quite a bit of my money to try and maintain GE and when struggling about 3 years ago I looked at the cost of Koru and thought it would be much cheaper to just buy that and be done with it. We are very lucky currently and GE allows us to fly PE or Biz on all long haul as we can get the upgrades, we do tend to plan well over a year out however, our recent Alaska cruise for example in May was booked in October 2017. Agree the cost of Koru could easily go closer to $1,000 these days, I mean in the 90's it was about $350 or $450 so today's price is very cheap.
 
DavidByrne
Posts: 1375
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:53 am

Gasman wrote:
Every person in that lounge - even the person who is there for no other reason than their credit card e-voucher, believes:

- that their right to be in the lounge is absolute and incontestable
- anyone else that is in the lounge is an inconvenience, probably doesn't deserve to be there at all (or at least, not as much as you do) and is not to be trusted. Particularly if they've got children with them (and the fact you might've brought your own kids in before makes no difference).

Cynicism! There's at least one person that doesn't think like that (me).
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
PA515
Posts: 1498
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:17 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:21 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
I note ZK-NZF was under tow near the international apron this afternoon, no idea where it went after that.


There's a spot at the western end of the main taxiway where they do engine tests. Maybe a test flight tomorrow.

A321-271NX ZK-NNF (msn 8839) D-AVYR had it's first flight last night. https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/d-avyr

PA515
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6873
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:34 am

PA515 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
I note ZK-NZF was under tow near the international apron this afternoon, no idea where it went after that.


There's a spot at the western end of the main taxiway where they do engine tests. Maybe a test flight tomorrow.

A321-271NX ZK-NNF (msn 8839) D-AVYR had it's first flight last night. https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/d-avyr

PA515



There is yes, I can’t recall as I was looking at FR24 if it was there or not. Quite likely I guess?
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 4284
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:49 am

nz2 wrote:
NZ6 wrote:

Your thoughts are actually very common. As someone who travels a lot, you deserve a place where you can relax, do some work and enjoy some complimentary food and beverages before your flight.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, Koru has become too affordable and it should cost a few hundred more than it does and not be payable by Airpoints.

The airline has also unfortunately commercialised lounge access by making it a benefit from non-airline accruals. If I was Gold Elite, I would be ropable.

By reviewing eVouchers, Koru/HVC guest entitlements and reviewing Koru fees on top of ensuring Silver, Gold and Elite levels are proportionate to what the most frequent travellers fly will all go a long way to resolving some of the issues faced.

As I've said before, it's not about building it bigger, the first issue is too many people are in the lounge who aren't in there for the core reason the airline has a lounge, that being premium cabin and very frequent high-value flyers.

Being in the lounge as Wesptac Purchased $500 APD after you spent $30,000 on your credit card is not the same as an Elite who is on an aircraft.. Oh I don't know, let's say two to three times a week if they are primarily flying domestic and probably spendning tens of thousands with the airline.


I quite agree, I have over the years spent quite a bit of my money to try and maintain GE and when struggling about 3 years ago I looked at the cost of Koru and thought it would be much cheaper to just buy that and be done with it. We are very lucky currently and GE allows us to fly PE or Biz on all long haul as we can get the upgrades, we do tend to plan well over a year out however, our recent Alaska cruise for example in May was booked in October 2017. Agree the cost of Koru could easily go closer to $1,000 these days, I mean in the 90's it was about $350 or $450 so today's price is very cheap.

They also used to sell life koru memberships for quite a cheap price IIRC would be less than $1000 in today’s money.
59 types. 41 countries. 24 airlines.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:07 am

Gasman wrote:

I'd advocate stepping the lounges up a notch in terms of comfort and service. Eliminate credit card access and the like. Restrict free access to true top tier membership (ie. Gold Elite in NZ's case) and business class passengers. But open up pay a pay at the door option for any NZ traveler who wants to take it up - space permitting of course.


That would be a bit on the nose for the NZ *G members, especially when *G from partner airlines would be allowed access.
 
Gasman
Posts: 2048
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:54 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Gasman wrote:

I'd advocate stepping the lounges up a notch in terms of comfort and service. Eliminate credit card access and the like. Restrict free access to true top tier membership (ie. Gold Elite in NZ's case) and business class passengers. But open up pay a pay at the door option for any NZ traveler who wants to take it up - space permitting of course.


That would be a bit on the nose for the NZ *G members, especially when *G from partner airlines would be allowed access.


Indeed, but whenever you realign a privilege there'll always be a group that just misses out. When I was with NZ I remember *G was pretty easy to achieve with a mix of credit card spend and the odd long haul J class flight.

There's simply going to be no way of reducing numbers in existing lounges without taking something away from someone. Or you increase capacity. Or both.
 
tu2130
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:41 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:13 am

PA515 wrote:
tu2130 wrote:
D-AVYR (MSN 8839) (Sorry if I got the reg wrong) bt. ZK-NNF performed a taxi & rto in XFW which means this plane might be on it's way to NZ soon. Then (MSN 8908) is next Can I get an update on ZK-MVZ (MSN 600)?


ZK-NNF (msn 8839) D-AYAR did a Taxi / RTO on Fri 28 Jun and again on Mon 01 Jul, so I would expect a first flight tonight. It's about five days between the first and second flights, so mid July it should arrive in NZ.

ZK-MVZ (msn 1562) F-WWET had it's second (14 min) flight on Mon 01 Jul from LFBO (TLS) to LFBF (Francazal). This surprised me as ZK-MVZ is already painted and Francazal has paint hangars but is mostly used for storage. https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/f-wwet

PA515

Can I see a photo of ZK-MVZ?
Air New Zealand. Proud to fly.
 
tu2130
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:41 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:14 am

An Air New Zealand flight got delayed 20 minutes due to bird stuck in the cockpit as it was scheduled to leave at 11am, did the brd get stuck die to the bad weather?
Air New Zealand. Proud to fly.
 
nz2
Posts: 248
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:38 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:43 am

My flight AKL/TRG was cancelled this morning, scheduled 11.05 but rebooked to the 12.25pm only to be cancelled 7 minutes from departure, with no boarding announcement it was obvious there would be a cancellation. The weather sure was wet and visibility not the best but it seems something else was going on as weather was not that bad, even our customer in TRG agreed. I had one of my team on the earlier flight to TRG but couldn't land and returned to AKL. A bit chaotic all round today out at the airport...
 
NZ6
Posts: 1053
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:15 am

Gasman wrote:
There's simply going to be no way of reducing numbers in existing lounges without taking something away from someone. Or you increase capacity. Or both.


Shortened

Gasman wrote:
reducing numbers ... taking something away


Stating the obvious here Gasman :lol: You certainly can't reduce the numbers of people going into the lounge without taking something away from people. Well, I guess you could if you made the lounge unattractive and afterall, yesterday you did state "retail outlets have stolen some of the lounge market" so maybe they'll naturally become less interested until it dies a death.
 
a7ala
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:27 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread -July 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:45 pm

I'm hearing rumours that JQ are planning to pull out 2 aircraft from New Zealand. Not sure whether they are both A320's or one of each. I presume the CHC-SYD cancellation is part of that.

Anyone know any more?

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