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killswitch13
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:52 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:18 am

in other news

Blow to GVK as HC allows Bidvest to sell Mumbai airport stake to a third party

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/delhi-hc-dismisses-gvk-s-plea-against-mumbai-airport-stake-sale-1561986643857.html
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:30 am

swapcv wrote:
unrave wrote:
Last month's Indian aviation thread ran into a record 18 pages. Good job!
that's because our Aviation sector is set to become the second largest by the end of the next decade.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk

Second? No way. Third largest is a realistic possibility.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:59 am

Another incident today:
SpiceJet plane breaks runway lights at Kolkata airport.
Flight SG-275 from Pune to Kolkata..veered off..owing to wet runway / heavy rain.
Pilots took corrective action to get the aircraft on center line. Four runway edge lights were inadvertently damaged.All passengers and crew safe
Source: Tarun Shukla on twitter
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:52 pm

unrave wrote:
Another incident today:
SpiceJet plane breaks runway lights at Kolkata airport.
Flight SG-275 from Pune to Kolkata..veered off..owing to wet runway / heavy rain.
Pilots took corrective action to get the aircraft on center line. Four runway edge lights were inadvertently damaged.All passengers and crew safe
Source: Tarun Shukla on twitter

Too many SpuceJet incidents in the last 3 days. Tail strike, runway overshoot and now veering off runway.
Personally, it is incidents like these that would make Spicejet my last choice among airlines for travel....., but if it is a forced choice between Air India and SpiceJet for domestic I don’t know which one is worse.

air India is unlikely to shut down operations. Politically, it is not possible especially so soon after Jet terminated operations.

Moody should be given full credit for calling out Air India as a problem child and making honest efforts, as difficult as they are, to sell it. If this issue was in the hands of the opposition party, they simply wouldn’t have the kahunas.
Last edited by edealinfo on Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:55 pm

edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
Another incident today:
SpiceJet plane breaks runway lights at Kolkata airport.
Flight SG-275 from Pune to Kolkata..veered off..owing to wet runway / heavy rain.
Pilots took corrective action to get the aircraft on center line. Four runway edge lights were inadvertently damaged.All passengers and crew safe
Source: Tarun Shukla on twitter

Too many SpuceJet incidents in the last 3 days. Tail strike, runway overshoot and now veering off runway.

Visible effects of cutting corners on safety and training
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:00 pm

unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
Another incident today:
SpiceJet plane breaks runway lights at Kolkata airport.
Flight SG-275 from Pune to Kolkata..veered off..owing to wet runway / heavy rain.
Pilots took corrective action to get the aircraft on center line. Four runway edge lights were inadvertently damaged.All passengers and crew safe
Source: Tarun Shukla on twitter

Too many SpuceJet incidents in the last 3 days. Tail strike, runway overshoot and now veering off runway.

Visible effects of cutting corners on safety and training

Due to significantly scaling up operations over a very short period of time (80 percent planned capacity increase this year). The funny part is that they are taking on even more ex Jet planes than previously planned as the MAX is unlikely to fly until December
 
hohd
Posts: 768
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:26 pm

edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
Another incident today:
SpiceJet plane breaks runway lights at Kolkata airport.
Flight SG-275 from Pune to Kolkata..veered off..owing to wet runway / heavy rain.
Pilots took corrective action to get the aircraft on center line. Four runway edge lights were inadvertently damaged.All passengers and crew safe
Source: Tarun Shukla on twitter

Too many SpuceJet incidents in the last 3 days. Tail strike, runway overshoot and now veering off runway.
Personally, it is incidents like these that would make Spicejet my last choice among airlines for travel....., but if it is a forced choice between Air India and SpiceJet for domestic I don’t know which one is worse.

air India is unlikely to shut down operations. Politically, it is not possible especially so soon after Jet terminated operations.

Moody should be given full credit for calling out Air India as a problem child and making honest efforts, as difficult as they are, to sell it. If this issue was in the hands of the opposition party, they simply wouldn’t have the kahunas.


I would choose AI over Spice in a minute or even Indigo or Go Air or AirAsia. AI pilots tend to be more experienced and because of better benefits and perception that their jobs are more secure and they have been flying for many more years than Spice Jet

And why do you want AI to shut down so desperately, AI is now running a small profit operationally and is the only airline capable of operating internationally to US and even beats UA. Do you want Indigo to be the main carrier for int'l ops, which is an LCC. Vistara is many years away to be a success internationally and there is no assurance that will suffer the same fate as Jet.
 
swapcv
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:24 pm

unrave wrote:
swapcv wrote:
unrave wrote:
Last month's Indian aviation thread ran into a record 18 pages. Good job!
that's because our Aviation sector is set to become the second largest by the end of the next decade.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk

Second? No way. Third largest is a realistic possibility.


I'd have agreed with you if it was 2014
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:46 pm

swapcv wrote:
unrave wrote:
swapcv wrote:
that's because our Aviation sector is set to become the second largest by the end of the next decade.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk

Second? No way. Third largest is a realistic possibility.


I'd have agreed with you if it was 2014

There's no way Indian aviation sector gets bigger than China's or US' by 2030.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
swapcv
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:57 pm

unrave wrote:
swapcv wrote:
unrave wrote:
Second? No way. Third largest is a realistic possibility.


I'd have agreed with you if it was 2014

There's no way Indian aviation sector gets bigger than China's or US' by 2030.


By 2030, both China and India will overtake that of the US, it's simple demographics, when a large portion of about 2.5 Billion people begin flying, the US will be left behind simply.
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:20 pm

With all the chaos created by Spicejet at BOM and other airports, I wonder why they were given most of the available BOM slots of 9W. They seem to have their own internal disruptions & chaos, and incidents like these are spilling over and affecting all other airlines now.
There should be certain parameters put in place for issuance of slots to airlines at such vital airports based on OTP, pax complaints, schedule integrity, accident/incident rates etc. So better performing airlines are given preference for slots over crappy airlines like Spice & AI. This way the airport can function more efficiently with well performing airlines sticking to those said parameters.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:25 pm

hohd wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
Another incident today:
SpiceJet plane breaks runway lights at Kolkata airport.
Flight SG-275 from Pune to Kolkata..veered off..owing to wet runway / heavy rain.
Pilots took corrective action to get the aircraft on center line. Four runway edge lights were inadvertently damaged.All passengers and crew safe
Source: Tarun Shukla on twitter

Too many SpuceJet incidents in the last 3 days. Tail strike, runway overshoot and now veering off runway.
Personally, it is incidents like these that would make Spicejet my last choice among airlines for travel....., but if it is a forced choice between Air India and SpiceJet for domestic I don’t know which one is worse.

air India is unlikely to shut down operations. Politically, it is not possible especially so soon after Jet terminated operations.

Moody should be given full credit for calling out Air India as a problem child and making honest efforts, as difficult as they are, to sell it. If this issue was in the hands of the opposition party, they simply wouldn’t have the kahunas.


I would choose AI over Spice in a minute or even Indigo or Go Air or AirAsia. AI pilots tend to be more experienced and because of better benefits and perception that their jobs are more secure and they have been flying for many more years than Spice Jet

And why do you want AI to shut down so desperately, AI is now running a small profit operationally and is the only airline capable of operating internationally to US and even beats UA. Do you want Indigo to be the main carrier for int'l ops, which is an LCC. Vistara is many years away to be a success internationally and there is no assurance that will suffer the same fate as Jet.


My aversion to Air India is primarily because of the following;
1) the indisputable fact that it is pure misery during IRROPS. AI won’t rebook you on another airlines as it is cheaper for them to put you in a hotel and wait for their maintenance staff to come and fix the aircraft no matter how long it takes. (#1 applies to international travel not domestic)
2) perception of a sloppy run airline.
3) bed bugs on flights (I can’t get that out of mind)
4) dirty toilets that are not cleaned during the flight as they are on the ME3 long distance flights
5) Government shouldn’t be in the airline business and taxpayer money shouldn’t be used to prop up an airline.

My first preference is for an ME3 airline, then European airline, then US airline and finally AI. If Vistara starts international operations, I would consider them over the ME3.
I fly economy class but am willing to pay $200 more for better seating/service on economy (India to N. America).
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:26 pm

swapcv wrote:
By 2030, both China and India will overtake that of the US, it's simple demographics, when a large portion of about 2.5 Billion people begin flying, the US will be left behind simply.


Eventually, yes. But not as early as 2030. India's traffic is ~180 million while US traffic upwards of 1 billion. 180m cannot grow to 1.5 billion in 11 years, especially with the kind of infrastructure constraints that we have.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:29 pm

avier wrote:
With all the chaos created by Spicejet at BOM and other airports, I wonder why they were given most of the available BOM slots of 9W. They seem to have their own internal disruptions & chaos, and incidents like these are spilling over and affecting all other airlines now.
There should be certain parameters put in place for issuance of slots to airlines at such vital airports based on OTP, pax complaints, schedule integrity, accident/incident rates etc. So better performing airlines are given preference for slots over crappy airlines like Spice & AI. This way the airport can function more efficiently with well performing airlines sticking to those said parameters.

I recall reading in the US that the airport operator can sue the airline for damages (costs associated with flight disruptions including loss of revenue) but I don’t know if that will ever apply in India. In any case, in the US, airlines probably buy insurance for that.
 
VTCIE
Posts: 330
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:21 pm

killswitch13 wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Even though Air India was awarded Jet’s Pune Singapore slot, it will just sit on it and not operate it.
The Government shouldn’t allow slot sitting! After how many days of not operating a flight, as intended, does the slot go back to the Government to be reallocated? didn’t the Government recently say that if an airline doesn’t start operations within 30 of the specified intended date, the slot would be reallocated? Can someone confirm this as well as confirming whether this would apply to Air India or do they have special rights for slot-sitting
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofi ... 031907.cms

When those fools fly with an A321(downgraded from a B788) from the financial capital, I don't expect them to start this flight anytime soon.

In November 2017, the BOM-SIN-MAA-SIN-BOM rotation was downgraded from the 787 to the A320neo (not the A321 as mentioned). It should have been upgraded again on 2 May, but this will never happen.
In grieving remembrance of the thousands of people who lost their lives on ET-AVJ, PK-LQP, XA-UHZ, S2-AGU, CP-2933, SU-GCC, EI-ETJ, D-AIPX, PK-AXC, 9M-MRD, VT-AXV and above all 9M-MRO, besides many more. Your deaths are not in vain. Safety first, always.
 
binayak
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:48 pm

avier wrote:
With all the chaos created by Spicejet at BOM and other airports, I wonder why they were given most of the available BOM slots of 9W. They seem to have their own internal disruptions & chaos, and incidents like these are spilling over and affecting all other airlines now.
There should be certain parameters put in place for issuance of slots to airlines at such vital airports based on OTP, pax complaints, schedule integrity, accident/incident rates etc. So better performing airlines are given preference for slots over crappy airlines like Spice & AI. This way the airport can function more efficiently with well performing airlines sticking to those said parameters.


I think just like how DGCA publish OTP of Indian carriers ( though I don't support their method of OTP calculation), there should be a safety rating for all airlines in the country. DGCA reports are more influential to pax than anything else.
Last year, airlineratings gave SG 3/7 stars for safety. Not many people remember that. Pax have the right to know whether the airline they're flying is safe or not. .
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:01 am

India's New 5 Year Aviation Plan

Yawn, yawn. Aspiration at worst.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/aviat ... 870951.htm
 
FligtReporter
Posts: 198
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:54 am

Spicejet's New Slogan

RUNWAY ke Sath bhi RUNWAY ke Baad bhi :lol:
 
SeanM1997
Posts: 292
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:58 am

British Airways will increase its London Heathrow to Mumbai route in Summer 2020 from 2 to 3 daily flights - all on B777

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/11 ... 2276107264

There will also be frequency increases between 26 December 2019 - 6 February 2020 (17 weekly flights) and between 1 March 2020 - 28 March 2020 (21 weekly - 2x B777 and 1x B789)
 
chinmay17shetye
Posts: 72
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:33 am

FligtReporter wrote:
Ok Spice you gotta get rid of 'em bus drivers ASAP cause it ain doin no good for your already brandless reputation.


Buddy, an investigation has not been carried out yet - do not make comments without any knowledge about the incident. You clearly meant 'bus drivers' as an insult. Cut down on that.
 
binayak
Posts: 972
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:21 am

SeanM1997 wrote:
British Airways will increase its London Heathrow to Mumbai route in Summer 2020 from 2 to 3 daily flights - all on B777

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/11 ... 2276107264

There will also be frequency increases between 26 December 2019 - 6 February 2020 (17 weekly flights) and between 1 March 2020 - 28 March 2020 (21 weekly - 2x B777 and 1x B789)


B777 - which one? 772 or 77W ?
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
SeanM1997
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:24 am

binayak wrote:
SeanM1997 wrote:
British Airways will increase its London Heathrow to Mumbai route in Summer 2020 from 2 to 3 daily flights - all on B777

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/11 ... 2276107264

There will also be frequency increases between 26 December 2019 - 6 February 2020 (17 weekly flights) and between 1 March 2020 - 28 March 2020 (21 weekly - 2x B777 and 1x B789)


B777 - which one? 772 or 77W ?


The additional flight is on 4 class B777-200ER, but the other two are on B777-300ER
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:37 am

SeanM1997 wrote:
The additional flight is on 4 class B777-200ER, but the other two are on B777-300ER

So BA+VS would have filled up most of the lost capacity on the route with 4 daily between them. Now AI needs to add one frequency to fill up the void completely.
 
binayak
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:00 pm

avier wrote:
SeanM1997 wrote:
The additional flight is on 4 class B777-200ER, but the other two are on B777-300ER

So BA+VS would have filled up most of the lost capacity on the route with 4 daily between them. Now AI needs to add one frequency to fill up the void completely.


IIRC BA is seat restricted to BOM and DEL. What's the seat limit ?
Is there any scope for them to have 3 daily 77W in this route in future?
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
SeanM1997
Posts: 292
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:38 pm

binayak wrote:
avier wrote:
SeanM1997 wrote:
The additional flight is on 4 class B777-200ER, but the other two are on B777-300ER

So BA+VS would have filled up most of the lost capacity on the route with 4 daily between them. Now AI needs to add one frequency to fill up the void completely.


IIRC BA is seat restricted to BOM and DEL. What's the seat limit ?
Is there any scope for them to have 3 daily 77W in this route in future?


The current UK - India bilateral agreement states:
- Maximum 56 weekly flights on UK carrier between London Heathrow and Mumbai/Delhi (combined)
- Maximum 56 weekly flights on India carrier between London Heathrow and Mumbai/Delhi (combined)
- Unlimited number of flights between all other UK airports and all airports in India
- Unlimited nunber of flights between all other Indian airports and all airports in UK

So in Summer 2020:
- UK 56 weekly of which
- British Airways - 35 (21 BOM, 14 DEL)
- Virgin Atlantic - 14 (7 BOM, 7 DEL)
- Unallocated - 7

- India 56 weekly of which
- Air India - 21 (7 BOM, 14 DEL)
- Unallocated - 35
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:55 pm

SeanM1997 wrote:
- Maximum 56 weekly flights on India carrier between London Heathrow and Mumbai/Delhi (combined)
- Unlimited number of flights between all other UK airports and all airports in India

So does that imply unlimited flights permissible from BOM/DEL to Gatwick and even Stansted,etc. Or is that rule of 56 weekly applicable for London (all airports). Since you have specified LHR, I wondered if Bilateral's were specific to an airport or the greater city as a whole.
 
SeanM1997
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:59 pm

avier wrote:
SeanM1997 wrote:
- Maximum 56 weekly flights on India carrier between London Heathrow and Mumbai/Delhi (combined)
- Unlimited number of flights between all other UK airports and all airports in India

So does that imply unlimited flights permissible from BOM/DEL to Gatwick and even Stansted,etc. Or is that rule of 56 weekly applicable for London (all airports). Since you have specified LHR, I wondered if Bilateral's were specific to an airport or the greater city as a whole.


Bilateral is just for LHR. An unlimited number of flights can operate between any other UK airport and any India airport including all London airports
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:01 pm

FligtReporter wrote:
Ok Spice you gotta get rid of 'em bus drivers ASAP cause it ain doin no good for your already brandless reputation.



please don’t insult the bus drivers!
 
FligtReporter
Posts: 198
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:44 pm

edealinfo wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:
Ok Spice you gotta get rid of 'em bus drivers ASAP cause it ain doin no good for your already brandless reputation.



please don’t insult the bus drivers!


This comment made my day hahahahaha :lol:
Fanx for always havin my back bruh...!!

Also,I deeply apologize for inadvertently hurting the sentiments of the bus drivers who may have taken offence.l to my comment.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:50 pm

edealinfo wrote:
India's New 5 Year Aviation Plan

Yawn, yawn. Aspiration at worst.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/aviat ... 870951.htm

What is the yawn:
It is important to note here that domestic airlines have not fully utilised 80 percent of their capacity entitlements on overseas routes, but foreign carriers have utilised their bilateral rights.


How about creating a hub at a high O&D city with
1. Low taxes (fuel) and fees
2. Great ground transportation to/from the airport
3. An excellent airport experience (space per passenger), international to International connection experience as well as domestic connections)
4. Infrastructure for fast growth when there is an opportunity to expand.

I see huge potential for Indian aviation growth. The ULCC expansion shiws much of the growth is on the low end where keeping control of costs is King. A 30% fuel tax adds 12% to 15% to the cost of flying, which is more than the profit!

I see an opportunity to:

1. Take the Kangaroo route from Dubai
2. Hub EU to SE Asia
3. Hub China/other Asia to Africa

At least 25% of the seats at this development stage on International travel should be international to International connections. Forfeiting those seats has out India at a huge disadvantage.

For example, LHR slots for India are plentiful. Do an EK like frequency to the hub. Feed tourist destinations, Australia, New Zealand, and much better connections via narrowbody not only India secondary cities (50+ new airports planned), but many of the existing and new Malaysian, Thailand, and Indonesian secondary airports.

Then build up secondary EU cities...

It amazes me such an obvious gap in the air transport network is taxed out of possibility.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
FligtReporter
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:29 pm

So the CA Minister has said that AI will be privatised in mear future and Before that they are doing the best to make it profitable and appealing to the possible buyer.

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 272232.ece

I hope they get rid of AI ASAP and then dont interfare in it even if in future it collapses or else AI will be back with same losses again.
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:48 pm

SpiceJet seems to be getting the bad rep they truly deserve on social media, from their pax who suffered on their aircraft mishaps.
https://mobile.twitter.com/LiveFromALou ... 57/photo/1
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 1652943718

Where are those Spice fanboys on here , who wanted this airline to go places by filling the void and bag all the left overs of Jet? They can't even seem to get their basics right here. Damn their RASM figures, when they can't get their safety and training standards right.
 
subramak1
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:06 pm

lightsaber wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Turkey has been pushing for an increase in civil aviation bilateral rights and managed to slip in the discussion when Moody met the Turkish President at the G20 summit.

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... e/1622998/

However, given Turkish ideological closeness to Pak on Kash, there is zero chance that the Indian side would budge. complicating the issue is the Turkish demand sor numerous additional daily frequencies (in which world are they living??).

Given the geo-political issue, I think the only chance that Turkey has on increasing rights is to ask for just 1 additional daily flight and specifically to Amritsar. Why Amritsar? Because there are a gazillions of Punjabis/Siks in far corners of the world (and Turkish has a really large network across the world) looking for cheap flights to Amritsar. But more so because the Indian Civil Aviation Minister represents Amritsar and if he has to concede, he would do where it helps him politically. Of course, Turkish has to be creative and get the Amritsar trade association and the Golden Temp leaders to lean on the minister and build the pressure which will make it easier for him to support such a decision.

In allowing a new flight to Amritsar, India should also change the bilateral from the current 2X daily to one based on seat counts. This will make 6 Indigo flights (narrow bodied) equivalent to 3 Turkish flights (wide bodied). This way, the minister could also pitch the new arrangement as an "improvement" over the existing bilateral which favored Turkish in the sense that they flew in wide body aircraft and India only flies a narrow body which is disadvantageous when the bilateral is based on frequency not seat counts.

DO YOU AGREE WITH MY POSITION?

Actually, no, I do not agree. Bilaterals are far more than air service rights. Out if curiosity, what is India asking for? Why would Turkey give up anything else for such restrictive rights?

They will negotiate and come back with a middle ground. Or everything stays as is.

India needs help with Pakistan. Turkey could obviously influence them. So more opening of air service in the bilateral is required. This is give me something I want for something you want.

Or not.

Lightsaber


Sorry for going off topic.

Present Turkish dispensation will do little to lean on Pakistan on Kashmir. The only country Pakistan will listen to is China and they are not going lean on Pakistan for a while. Now if after 10 years China realizes that Pakistan is not worth the investments they are making that will be a different story.

India does not need liberal bi laterals with Turkey. It made sense to give them to gulf countries as a quid pro quo for a few things

Subu
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:11 pm

subramak1 wrote:

India does not need liberal bi laterals with Turkey. It made sense to give them to gulf countries as a quid pro quo for a few things

Subu

India has pretty much made it clear that bilateral air rights are quid pro quo with the recent increase in bilats with Saudi. Makes a lot of sense too.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
blrsea
Posts: 1913
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:19 pm

subramak1 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Turkey has been pushing for an increase in civil aviation bilateral rights and managed to slip in the discussion when Moody met the Turkish President at the G20 summit.

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... e/1622998/

However, given Turkish ideological closeness to Pak on Kash, there is zero chance that the Indian side would budge. complicating the issue is the Turkish demand sor numerous additional daily frequencies (in which world are they living??).

Given the geo-political issue, I think the only chance that Turkey has on increasing rights is to ask for just 1 additional daily flight and specifically to Amritsar. Why Amritsar? Because there are a gazillions of Punjabis/Siks in far corners of the world (and Turkish has a really large network across the world) looking for cheap flights to Amritsar. But more so because the Indian Civil Aviation Minister represents Amritsar and if he has to concede, he would do where it helps him politically. Of course, Turkish has to be creative and get the Amritsar trade association and the Golden Temp leaders to lean on the minister and build the pressure which will make it easier for him to support such a decision.

In allowing a new flight to Amritsar, India should also change the bilateral from the current 2X daily to one based on seat counts. This will make 6 Indigo flights (narrow bodied) equivalent to 3 Turkish flights (wide bodied). This way, the minister could also pitch the new arrangement as an "improvement" over the existing bilateral which favored Turkish in the sense that they flew in wide body aircraft and India only flies a narrow body which is disadvantageous when the bilateral is based on frequency not seat counts.

DO YOU AGREE WITH MY POSITION?

Actually, no, I do not agree. Bilaterals are far more than air service rights. Out if curiosity, what is India asking for? Why would Turkey give up anything else for such restrictive rights?

They will negotiate and come back with a middle ground. Or everything stays as is.

India needs help with Pakistan. Turkey could obviously influence them. So more opening of air service in the bilateral is required. This is give me something I want for something you want.

Or not.

Lightsaber


Sorry for going off topic.

Present Turkish dispensation will do little to lean on Pakistan on Kashmir. The only country Pakistan will listen to is China and they are not going lean on Pakistan for a while. Now if after 10 years China realizes that Pakistan is not worth the investments they are making that will be a different story.

India does not need liberal bi laterals with Turkey. It made sense to give them to gulf countries as a quid pro quo for a few things

Subu


In the recent FATF discussion on putting pressure on Pakistan, only Turkey, China and Malaysia supported pakistan. Turkey has consistently supported pakistan against India in multiple forums. Only way Turkey bilaterals will increase is if Turkey turns against pak which is highly unlikely. So no near term change in turkey's bilateral.
 
sabby
Posts: 340
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:53 pm

lightsaber wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
India's New 5 Year Aviation Plan

Yawn, yawn. Aspiration at worst.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/aviat ... 870951.htm

What is the yawn:
It is important to note here that domestic airlines have not fully utilised 80 percent of their capacity entitlements on overseas routes, but foreign carriers have utilised their bilateral rights.


How about creating a hub at a high O&D city with
1. Low taxes (fuel) and fees
2. Great ground transportation to/from the airport
3. An excellent airport experience (space per passenger), international to International connection experience as well as domestic connections)
4. Infrastructure for fast growth when there is an opportunity to expand.

I see huge potential for Indian aviation growth. The ULCC expansion shiws much of the growth is on the low end where keeping control of costs is King. A 30% fuel tax adds 12% to 15% to the cost of flying, which is more than the profit!

I see an opportunity to:

1. Take the Kangaroo route from Dubai
2. Hub EU to SE Asia
3. Hub China/other Asia to Africa

At least 25% of the seats at this development stage on International travel should be international to International connections. Forfeiting those seats has out India at a huge disadvantage.

For example, LHR slots for India are plentiful. Do an EK like frequency to the hub. Feed tourist destinations, Australia, New Zealand, and much better connections via narrowbody not only India secondary cities (50+ new airports planned), but many of the existing and new Malaysian, Thailand, and Indonesian secondary airports.

Then build up secondary EU cities...

It amazes me such an obvious gap in the air transport network is taxed out of possibility.

Lightsaber

Indian airports are struggling to cope up with it's own O/D passengers growth. Creating a super-hub for transit is never gonna fly. I do agree about eventual need of creating hubs outside DEL/BOM when the international traffic goes much higher but that's for India O/D passengers.
 
avier
Posts: 915
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:06 pm

Spicejet will be adding a second daily BOM-DXB flight from August 3, 2019:
SG005 BOM0905 – 1110DXB 737 D
SG006 DXB1210 – 1705BOM 737 D
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18131
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:14 pm

sabby wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
India's New 5 Year Aviation Plan

Yawn, yawn. Aspiration at worst.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/aviat ... 870951.htm

What is the yawn:
It is important to note here that domestic airlines have not fully utilised 80 percent of their capacity entitlements on overseas routes, but foreign carriers have utilised their bilateral rights.


How about creating a hub at a high O&D city with
1. Low taxes (fuel) and fees
2. Great ground transportation to/from the airport
3. An excellent airport experience (space per passenger), international to International connection experience as well as domestic connections)
4. Infrastructure for fast growth when there is an opportunity to expand.

I see huge potential for Indian aviation growth. The ULCC expansion shiws much of the growth is on the low end where keeping control of costs is King. A 30% fuel tax adds 12% to 15% to the cost of flying, which is more than the profit!

I see an opportunity to:

1. Take the Kangaroo route from Dubai
2. Hub EU to SE Asia
3. Hub China/other Asia to Africa

At least 25% of the seats at this development stage on International travel should be international to International connections. Forfeiting those seats has out India at a huge disadvantage.

For example, LHR slots for India are plentiful. Do an EK like frequency to the hub. Feed tourist destinations, Australia, New Zealand, and much better connections via narrowbody not only India secondary cities (50+ new airports planned), but many of the existing and new Malaysian, Thailand, and Indonesian secondary airports.

Then build up secondary EU cities...

It amazes me such an obvious gap in the air transport network is taxed out of possibility.

Lightsaber

Indian airports are struggling to cope up with it's own O/D passengers growth. Creating a super-hub for transit is never gonna fly. I do agree about eventual need of creating hubs outside DEL/BOM when the international traffic goes much higher but that's for India O/D passengers.

If struggling, build infrastructure.

I disagree on Indian only. Bypassing International to International is forfeiting a huge opportunity. Today a market far larger than Indian International. It would seed the growth of the proposed hub.

Look at how many routes Dubai serves that are 15+ years away that Indian passengers would have to use an outside of India hub. Why not seed the service with foreign money? It would also help India's trade balance.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2110
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:33 am

avier wrote:
SpiceJet seems to be getting the bad rep they truly deserve on social media, from their pax who suffered on their aircraft mishaps.
https://mobile.twitter.com/LiveFromALou ... 57/photo/1
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 1652943718

Where are those Spice fanboys on here , who wanted this airline to go places by filling the void and bag all the left overs of Jet? They can't even seem to get their basics right here. Damn their RASM figures, when they can't get their safety and training standards right.


In the end whichever airline is able to pay off its bills and retain its profits will survive. Everything else will remain secondary
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:35 am

unrave wrote:
India has pretty much made it clear that bilateral air rights are quid pro quo with the recent increase in bilats with Saudi. Makes a lot of sense too.


If this is the case, why is the case by Subramanium Swamy against The government for giving liberal flying rights to Abu Dhabi even being entertained by the courts? Wasn't that too also given out on the same basis?
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:44 am

SeanM1997 wrote:
binayak wrote:
avier wrote:
So BA+VS would have filled up most of the lost capacity on the route with 4 daily between them. Now AI needs to add one frequency to fill up the void completely.


IIRC BA is seat restricted to BOM and DEL. What's the seat limit ?
Is there any scope for them to have 3 daily 77W in this route in future?


The current UK - India bilateral agreement states:
- Maximum 56 weekly flights on UK carrier between London Heathrow and Mumbai/Delhi (combined)
- Maximum 56 weekly flights on India carrier between London Heathrow and Mumbai/Delhi (combined)
- Unlimited number of flights between all other UK airports and all airports in India
- Unlimited nunber of flights between all other Indian airports and all airports in UK

So in Summer 2020:
- UK 56 weekly of which
- British Airways - 35 (21 BOM, 14 DEL)
- Virgin Atlantic - 14 (7 BOM, 7 DEL)
- Unallocated - 7

- India 56 weekly of which
- Air India - 21 (7 BOM, 14 DEL)
- Unallocated - 35


Super information. Thank you.

Looks like Virgin should look to get the last remaining 7 LHR slots or else BA might have an eye on it. Couldn't BA start a flight to CCU. It is the only major city in India to which it doesn't have a connection. Ahmadabad would likely be a better fit but does Ahmadabad airport support wide body operation?The gujjus should have a lot of money so filling the premium cabin shouldn't be as much a problem a sit would be for CCU.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:56 am

Jet Airways declared bankrupt but not its wholly owned subsidiary, JetLite.

Go figure!

So now what? Jet will be sold without its subsidiary? What happens to it?
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 65941.html
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:00 am

Sril Lankan Airways to increase Delhi Columbo flights to 18 flights a week.
https://www.outlookindia.com/outlooktra ... to-colombo
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:07 am

Indigo's reasoning for switching engine suppliers:

https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/why-i ... 883691.htm
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:09 am

Is it my eyes or has the "nose" of SpiceJet's plane been "punched"? (plane which overshot the runway in Bombay). Check the pic and let me know.

https://www.thenational.ae/uae/dubai-to ... s-1.882437
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:16 am

Why are only 175 of 700 UDAN routes operational?
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 059554.cms
 
sabby
Posts: 340
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:23 am

lightsaber wrote:
sabby wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
What is the yawn:
It is important to note here that domestic airlines have not fully utilised 80 percent of their capacity entitlements on overseas routes, but foreign carriers have utilised their bilateral rights.


How about creating a hub at a high O&D city with
1. Low taxes (fuel) and fees
2. Great ground transportation to/from the airport
3. An excellent airport experience (space per passenger), international to International connection experience as well as domestic connections)
4. Infrastructure for fast growth when there is an opportunity to expand.

I see huge potential for Indian aviation growth. The ULCC expansion shiws much of the growth is on the low end where keeping control of costs is King. A 30% fuel tax adds 12% to 15% to the cost of flying, which is more than the profit!

I see an opportunity to:

1. Take the Kangaroo route from Dubai
2. Hub EU to SE Asia
3. Hub China/other Asia to Africa

At least 25% of the seats at this development stage on International travel should be international to International connections. Forfeiting those seats has out India at a huge disadvantage.

For example, LHR slots for India are plentiful. Do an EK like frequency to the hub. Feed tourist destinations, Australia, New Zealand, and much better connections via narrowbody not only India secondary cities (50+ new airports planned), but many of the existing and new Malaysian, Thailand, and Indonesian secondary airports.

Then build up secondary EU cities...

It amazes me such an obvious gap in the air transport network is taxed out of possibility.

Lightsaber

Indian airports are struggling to cope up with it's own O/D passengers growth. Creating a super-hub for transit is never gonna fly. I do agree about eventual need of creating hubs outside DEL/BOM when the international traffic goes much higher but that's for India O/D passengers.

If struggling, build infrastructure.

If only! Government and private institutes are struggling to build necessary infrastructures like bridges, highways ! They won't get the massive amount of real estate necessary to create a mega-hub (unlike UAE, India is in a land crisis even for housing) and then there's the vote-bank politics.

lightsaber wrote:
I disagree on Indian only. Bypassing International to International is forfeiting a huge opportunity. Today a market far larger than Indian International. It would seed the growth of the proposed hub.

Look at how many routes Dubai serves that are 15+ years away that Indian passengers would have to use an outside of India hub. Why not seed the service with foreign money? It would also help India's trade balance.

Lightsaber

All good in theory and I agree that there is an opportunity. As much as I'd love to have a mega hub that connects all the big cities in the world, the reality is every metro cities in India are struggling with regular infrastructure, traffic, draught , flooding. I believe there are constraints about how much a foreign entity can invest on creating infrastructure and airlines as well. Then there's the corruption and bureaucracy.
Even if they find the massive area in the middle of nowhere ala DXC, the yield wouldn't be any good without any premium O&D demand.
 
SeanM1997
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:27 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:49 am

edealinfo wrote:
SeanM1997 wrote:
binayak wrote:

IIRC BA is seat restricted to BOM and DEL. What's the seat limit ?
Is there any scope for them to have 3 daily 77W in this route in future?


The current UK - India bilateral agreement states:
- Maximum 56 weekly flights on UK carrier between London Heathrow and Mumbai/Delhi (combined)
- Maximum 56 weekly flights on India carrier between London Heathrow and Mumbai/Delhi (combined)
- Unlimited number of flights between all other UK airports and all airports in India
- Unlimited nunber of flights between all other Indian airports and all airports in UK

So in Summer 2020:
- UK 56 weekly of which
- British Airways - 35 (21 BOM, 14 DEL)
- Virgin Atlantic - 14 (7 BOM, 7 DEL)
- Unallocated - 7

- India 56 weekly of which
- Air India - 21 (7 BOM, 14 DEL)
- Unallocated - 35


Super information. Thank you.

Looks like Virgin should look to get the last remaining 7 LHR slots or else BA might have an eye on it. Couldn't BA start a flight to CCU. It is the only major city in India to which it doesn't have a connection. Ahmadabad would likely be a better fit but does Ahmadabad airport support wide body operation?The gujjus should have a lot of money so filling the premium cabin shouldn't be as much a problem a sit would be for CCU.


British Airways or any carrier can start a route between London Heathrow and any point in India except Delhi/Mumbai with unlimited frequencies. It is unlikely in the near term that either BA or VS want to expand further since they are both growing BOM in W19

Calcutta is not high yield enough, and passengers can easily connect at other points to reach Heathrow. Ahmedabad is served by Air India 4x weekly on B787-8

Follow me on Twitter for more - SeanM1997 ;)
 
JOYA380B747
Posts: 775
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:31 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:48 pm

SeanM1997 wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
SeanM1997 wrote:

Couldn't BA start a flight to CCU. It is the only major city in India to which it doesn't have a connection. Ahmadabad would likely be a better fit but does Ahmadabad airport support wide body operation?The gujjus should have a lot of money so filling the premium cabin shouldn't be as much a problem a sit would be for CCU.


Calcutta is not high yield enough, and passengers can easily connect at other points to reach Heathrow.


:checkmark:

At the risk of sounding too political, the reality is that the situation of West Bengal (and for that matter Kolkata area) from business & industrialisation point of view is extremely deplorable due to the poor political climate since many decades. There only one area of Kolkata that is earmarked for a handful IT companies, and other than that import/export trade and few manufacturing companies do not make up for a whole lot of premium traffic, much less so international premium pax. This is not even considering that there is almost nothing but agriculture, textiles, leather and tourism in rest of the state, with only a decent steel industry in the Asansol-Durgapur belt that does not attract premium business traffic at all. Add to that the relatively lower per capita income of the majority of the state, including greater Kolkata metropolitan area.

What I said might sound naive & maybe even misinformed, but compare it with states like Maharashtra, Delhi, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Telengana/AP, etc and you will realize just how big the difference is.

CCU has the 'potential' to surpass even MAA and BLR in overall pax numbers, but never in terms of J pax. Not for the foreseeable future at least.
India's biggest loss w.r.t global aviation (so far) - Being an Australasia-Europe stopover.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:52 pm

The Government has only allotted 3 of 6 airports to the Adani Group. Newspaper reports of why the other 3 were not allotted are below:

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 99104.html

https://www.pinkcitypost.com/jaipur-air ... i-control/
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