swapcv wrote:

unrave wrote:

Last month's Indian aviation thread ran into a record 18 pages. Good job!

that's because our Aviation sector is set to become the second largest by the end of the next decade.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk

unrave wrote:

Another incident today:
SpiceJet plane breaks runway lights at Kolkata airport.
Flight SG-275 from Pune to Kolkata..veered off..owing to wet runway / heavy rain.
Pilots took corrective action to get the aircraft on center line. Four runway edge lights were inadvertently damaged.All passengers and crew safe
Source: Tarun Shukla on twitter

edealinfo wrote:

unrave wrote:

Another incident today:
SpiceJet plane breaks runway lights at Kolkata airport.
Flight SG-275 from Pune to Kolkata..veered off..owing to wet runway / heavy rain.
Pilots took corrective action to get the aircraft on center line. Four runway edge lights were inadvertently damaged.All passengers and crew safe
Source: Tarun Shukla on twitter

Too many SpuceJet incidents in the last 3 days. Tail strike, runway overshoot and now veering off runway.

unrave wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

unrave wrote:

Another incident today:
SpiceJet plane breaks runway lights at Kolkata airport.
Flight SG-275 from Pune to Kolkata..veered off..owing to wet runway / heavy rain.
Pilots took corrective action to get the aircraft on center line. Four runway edge lights were inadvertently damaged.All passengers and crew safe
Source: Tarun Shukla on twitter

Too many SpuceJet incidents in the last 3 days. Tail strike, runway overshoot and now veering off runway.

Visible effects of cutting corners on safety and training

edealinfo wrote:

unrave wrote:

Another incident today:
SpiceJet plane breaks runway lights at Kolkata airport.
Flight SG-275 from Pune to Kolkata..veered off..owing to wet runway / heavy rain.
Pilots took corrective action to get the aircraft on center line. Four runway edge lights were inadvertently damaged.All passengers and crew safe
Source: Tarun Shukla on twitter

Too many SpuceJet incidents in the last 3 days. Tail strike, runway overshoot and now veering off runway.
Personally, it is incidents like these that would make Spicejet my last choice among airlines for travel....., but if it is a forced choice between Air India and SpiceJet for domestic I don’t know which one is worse.

air India is unlikely to shut down operations. Politically, it is not possible especially so soon after Jet terminated operations.

Moody should be given full credit for calling out Air India as a problem child and making honest efforts, as difficult as they are, to sell it. If this issue was in the hands of the opposition party, they simply wouldn’t have the kahunas.

unrave wrote:

swapcv wrote:

unrave wrote:

Last month's Indian aviation thread ran into a record 18 pages. Good job!

that's because our Aviation sector is set to become the second largest by the end of the next decade.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk

Second? No way. Third largest is a realistic possibility.

swapcv wrote:

unrave wrote:

swapcv wrote:

that's because our Aviation sector is set to become the second largest by the end of the next decade.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk

Second? No way. Third largest is a realistic possibility.

I'd have agreed with you if it was 2014

unrave wrote:

swapcv wrote:

unrave wrote:

Second? No way. Third largest is a realistic possibility.

I'd have agreed with you if it was 2014

There's no way Indian aviation sector gets bigger than China's or US' by 2030.

hohd wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

unrave wrote:

Another incident today:
SpiceJet plane breaks runway lights at Kolkata airport.
Flight SG-275 from Pune to Kolkata..veered off..owing to wet runway / heavy rain.
Pilots took corrective action to get the aircraft on center line. Four runway edge lights were inadvertently damaged.All passengers and crew safe
Source: Tarun Shukla on twitter

Too many SpuceJet incidents in the last 3 days. Tail strike, runway overshoot and now veering off runway.
Personally, it is incidents like these that would make Spicejet my last choice among airlines for travel....., but if it is a forced choice between Air India and SpiceJet for domestic I don’t know which one is worse.

air India is unlikely to shut down operations. Politically, it is not possible especially so soon after Jet terminated operations.

Moody should be given full credit for calling out Air India as a problem child and making honest efforts, as difficult as they are, to sell it. If this issue was in the hands of the opposition party, they simply wouldn’t have the kahunas.

I would choose AI over Spice in a minute or even Indigo or Go Air or AirAsia. AI pilots tend to be more experienced and because of better benefits and perception that their jobs are more secure and they have been flying for many more years than Spice Jet

And why do you want AI to shut down so desperately, AI is now running a small profit operationally and is the only airline capable of operating internationally to US and even beats UA. Do you want Indigo to be the main carrier for int'l ops, which is an LCC. Vistara is many years away to be a success internationally and there is no assurance that will suffer the same fate as Jet.

swapcv wrote:

By 2030, both China and India will overtake that of the US, it's simple demographics, when a large portion of about 2.5 Billion people begin flying, the US will be left behind simply.

avier wrote:

With all the chaos created by Spicejet at BOM and other airports, I wonder why they were given most of the available BOM slots of 9W. They seem to have their own internal disruptions & chaos, and incidents like these are spilling over and affecting all other airlines now.
There should be certain parameters put in place for issuance of slots to airlines at such vital airports based on OTP, pax complaints, schedule integrity, accident/incident rates etc. So better performing airlines are given preference for slots over crappy airlines like Spice & AI. This way the airport can function more efficiently with well performing airlines sticking to those said parameters.

killswitch13 wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

Even though Air India was awarded Jet’s Pune Singapore slot, it will just sit on it and not operate it.
The Government shouldn’t allow slot sitting! After how many days of not operating a flight, as intended, does the slot go back to the Government to be reallocated? didn’t the Government recently say that if an airline doesn’t start operations within 30 of the specified intended date, the slot would be reallocated? Can someone confirm this as well as confirming whether this would apply to Air India or do they have special rights for slot-sitting
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofi ... 031907.cms

When those fools fly with an A321(downgraded from a B788) from the financial capital, I don't expect them to start this flight anytime soon.

avier wrote:

With all the chaos created by Spicejet at BOM and other airports, I wonder why they were given most of the available BOM slots of 9W. They seem to have their own internal disruptions & chaos, and incidents like these are spilling over and affecting all other airlines now.
There should be certain parameters put in place for issuance of slots to airlines at such vital airports based on OTP, pax complaints, schedule integrity, accident/incident rates etc. So better performing airlines are given preference for slots over crappy airlines like Spice & AI. This way the airport can function more efficiently with well performing airlines sticking to those said parameters.

FligtReporter wrote:

Ok Spice you gotta get rid of 'em bus drivers ASAP cause it ain doin no good for your already brandless reputation.

SeanM1997 wrote:

British Airways will increase its London Heathrow to Mumbai route in Summer 2020 from 2 to 3 daily flights - all on B777

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/11 ... 2276107264

There will also be frequency increases between 26 December 2019 - 6 February 2020 (17 weekly flights) and between 1 March 2020 - 28 March 2020 (21 weekly - 2x B777 and 1x B789)

binayak wrote:

SeanM1997 wrote:

British Airways will increase its London Heathrow to Mumbai route in Summer 2020 from 2 to 3 daily flights - all on B777

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/11 ... 2276107264

There will also be frequency increases between 26 December 2019 - 6 February 2020 (17 weekly flights) and between 1 March 2020 - 28 March 2020 (21 weekly - 2x B777 and 1x B789)

B777 - which one? 772 or 77W ?

SeanM1997 wrote:

The additional flight is on 4 class B777-200ER, but the other two are on B777-300ER

avier wrote:

SeanM1997 wrote:

The additional flight is on 4 class B777-200ER, but the other two are on B777-300ER

So BA+VS would have filled up most of the lost capacity on the route with 4 daily between them. Now AI needs to add one frequency to fill up the void completely.

binayak wrote:

avier wrote:

SeanM1997 wrote:

The additional flight is on 4 class B777-200ER, but the other two are on B777-300ER

So BA+VS would have filled up most of the lost capacity on the route with 4 daily between them. Now AI needs to add one frequency to fill up the void completely.

IIRC BA is seat restricted to BOM and DEL. What's the seat limit ?
Is there any scope for them to have 3 daily 77W in this route in future?

SeanM1997 wrote:

- Maximum 56 weekly flights on India carrier between London Heathrow and Mumbai/Delhi (combined)
- Unlimited number of flights between all other UK airports and all airports in India

avier wrote:

SeanM1997 wrote:

- Maximum 56 weekly flights on India carrier between London Heathrow and Mumbai/Delhi (combined)
- Unlimited number of flights between all other UK airports and all airports in India

So does that imply unlimited flights permissible from BOM/DEL to Gatwick and even Stansted,etc. Or is that rule of 56 weekly applicable for London (all airports). Since you have specified LHR, I wondered if Bilateral's were specific to an airport or the greater city as a whole.

FligtReporter wrote:

Ok Spice you gotta get rid of 'em bus drivers ASAP cause it ain doin no good for your already brandless reputation.

edealinfo wrote:

FligtReporter wrote:

Ok Spice you gotta get rid of 'em bus drivers ASAP cause it ain doin no good for your already brandless reputation.

please don’t insult the bus drivers!

edealinfo wrote:

India's New 5 Year Aviation Plan

Yawn, yawn. Aspiration at worst.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/aviat ... 870951.htm

lightsaber wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

Turkey has been pushing for an increase in civil aviation bilateral rights and managed to slip in the discussion when Moody met the Turkish President at the G20 summit.

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... e/1622998/

However, given Turkish ideological closeness to Pak on Kash, there is zero chance that the Indian side would budge. complicating the issue is the Turkish demand sor numerous additional daily frequencies (in which world are they living??).

Given the geo-political issue, I think the only chance that Turkey has on increasing rights is to ask for just 1 additional daily flight and specifically to Amritsar. Why Amritsar? Because there are a gazillions of Punjabis/Siks in far corners of the world (and Turkish has a really large network across the world) looking for cheap flights to Amritsar. But more so because the Indian Civil Aviation Minister represents Amritsar and if he has to concede, he would do where it helps him politically. Of course, Turkish has to be creative and get the Amritsar trade association and the Golden Temp leaders to lean on the minister and build the pressure which will make it easier for him to support such a decision.

In allowing a new flight to Amritsar, India should also change the bilateral from the current 2X daily to one based on seat counts. This will make 6 Indigo flights (narrow bodied) equivalent to 3 Turkish flights (wide bodied). This way, the minister could also pitch the new arrangement as an "improvement" over the existing bilateral which favored Turkish in the sense that they flew in wide body aircraft and India only flies a narrow body which is disadvantageous when the bilateral is based on frequency not seat counts.

DO YOU AGREE WITH MY POSITION?

Actually, no, I do not agree. Bilaterals are far more than air service rights. Out if curiosity, what is India asking for? Why would Turkey give up anything else for such restrictive rights?

They will negotiate and come back with a middle ground. Or everything stays as is.

India needs help with Pakistan. Turkey could obviously influence them. So more opening of air service in the bilateral is required. This is give me something I want for something you want.

Or not.

Lightsaber

subramak1 wrote:

India does not need liberal bi laterals with Turkey. It made sense to give them to gulf countries as a quid pro quo for a few things

Subu

subramak1 wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

Turkey has been pushing for an increase in civil aviation bilateral rights and managed to slip in the discussion when Moody met the Turkish President at the G20 summit.

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... e/1622998/

However, given Turkish ideological closeness to Pak on Kash, there is zero chance that the Indian side would budge. complicating the issue is the Turkish demand sor numerous additional daily frequencies (in which world are they living??).

Given the geo-political issue, I think the only chance that Turkey has on increasing rights is to ask for just 1 additional daily flight and specifically to Amritsar. Why Amritsar? Because there are a gazillions of Punjabis/Siks in far corners of the world (and Turkish has a really large network across the world) looking for cheap flights to Amritsar. But more so because the Indian Civil Aviation Minister represents Amritsar and if he has to concede, he would do where it helps him politically. Of course, Turkish has to be creative and get the Amritsar trade association and the Golden Temp leaders to lean on the minister and build the pressure which will make it easier for him to support such a decision.

In allowing a new flight to Amritsar, India should also change the bilateral from the current 2X daily to one based on seat counts. This will make 6 Indigo flights (narrow bodied) equivalent to 3 Turkish flights (wide bodied). This way, the minister could also pitch the new arrangement as an "improvement" over the existing bilateral which favored Turkish in the sense that they flew in wide body aircraft and India only flies a narrow body which is disadvantageous when the bilateral is based on frequency not seat counts.

DO YOU AGREE WITH MY POSITION?

Actually, no, I do not agree. Bilaterals are far more than air service rights. Out if curiosity, what is India asking for? Why would Turkey give up anything else for such restrictive rights?

They will negotiate and come back with a middle ground. Or everything stays as is.

India needs help with Pakistan. Turkey could obviously influence them. So more opening of air service in the bilateral is required. This is give me something I want for something you want.

Or not.

Lightsaber

Sorry for going off topic.

Present Turkish dispensation will do little to lean on Pakistan on Kashmir. The only country Pakistan will listen to is China and they are not going lean on Pakistan for a while. Now if after 10 years China realizes that Pakistan is not worth the investments they are making that will be a different story.

India does not need liberal bi laterals with Turkey. It made sense to give them to gulf countries as a quid pro quo for a few things

Subu

lightsaber wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

India's New 5 Year Aviation Plan

Yawn, yawn. Aspiration at worst.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/aviat ... 870951.htm

What is the yawn:
It is important to note here that domestic airlines have not fully utilised 80 percent of their capacity entitlements on overseas routes, but foreign carriers have utilised their bilateral rights.


How about creating a hub at a high O&D city with
1. Low taxes (fuel) and fees
2. Great ground transportation to/from the airport
3. An excellent airport experience (space per passenger), international to International connection experience as well as domestic connections)
4. Infrastructure for fast growth when there is an opportunity to expand.

I see huge potential for Indian aviation growth. The ULCC expansion shiws much of the growth is on the low end where keeping control of costs is King. A 30% fuel tax adds 12% to 15% to the cost of flying, which is more than the profit!

I see an opportunity to:

1. Take the Kangaroo route from Dubai
2. Hub EU to SE Asia
3. Hub China/other Asia to Africa

At least 25% of the seats at this development stage on International travel should be international to International connections. Forfeiting those seats has out India at a huge disadvantage.

For example, LHR slots for India are plentiful. Do an EK like frequency to the hub. Feed tourist destinations, Australia, New Zealand, and much better connections via narrowbody not only India secondary cities (50+ new airports planned), but many of the existing and new Malaysian, Thailand, and Indonesian secondary airports.

Then build up secondary EU cities...

It amazes me such an obvious gap in the air transport network is taxed out of possibility.

Lightsaber

sabby wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

India's New 5 Year Aviation Plan

Yawn, yawn. Aspiration at worst.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/aviat ... 870951.htm

What is the yawn:
It is important to note here that domestic airlines have not fully utilised 80 percent of their capacity entitlements on overseas routes, but foreign carriers have utilised their bilateral rights.


How about creating a hub at a high O&D city with
1. Low taxes (fuel) and fees
2. Great ground transportation to/from the airport
3. An excellent airport experience (space per passenger), international to International connection experience as well as domestic connections)
4. Infrastructure for fast growth when there is an opportunity to expand.

I see huge potential for Indian aviation growth. The ULCC expansion shiws much of the growth is on the low end where keeping control of costs is King. A 30% fuel tax adds 12% to 15% to the cost of flying, which is more than the profit!

I see an opportunity to:

1. Take the Kangaroo route from Dubai
2. Hub EU to SE Asia
3. Hub China/other Asia to Africa

At least 25% of the seats at this development stage on International travel should be international to International connections. Forfeiting those seats has out India at a huge disadvantage.

For example, LHR slots for India are plentiful. Do an EK like frequency to the hub. Feed tourist destinations, Australia, New Zealand, and much better connections via narrowbody not only India secondary cities (50+ new airports planned), but many of the existing and new Malaysian, Thailand, and Indonesian secondary airports.

Then build up secondary EU cities...

It amazes me such an obvious gap in the air transport network is taxed out of possibility.

Lightsaber

Indian airports are struggling to cope up with it's own O/D passengers growth. Creating a super-hub for transit is never gonna fly. I do agree about eventual need of creating hubs outside DEL/BOM when the international traffic goes much higher but that's for India O/D passengers.

avier wrote:

SpiceJet seems to be getting the bad rep they truly deserve on social media, from their pax who suffered on their aircraft mishaps.
https://mobile.twitter.com/LiveFromALou ... 57/photo/1
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 1652943718

Where are those Spice fanboys on here , who wanted this airline to go places by filling the void and bag all the left overs of Jet? They can't even seem to get their basics right here. Damn their RASM figures, when they can't get their safety and training standards right.

unrave wrote:

India has pretty much made it clear that bilateral air rights are quid pro quo with the recent increase in bilats with Saudi. Makes a lot of sense too.

SeanM1997 wrote:

binayak wrote:

avier wrote:

So BA+VS would have filled up most of the lost capacity on the route with 4 daily between them. Now AI needs to add one frequency to fill up the void completely.

IIRC BA is seat restricted to BOM and DEL. What's the seat limit ?
Is there any scope for them to have 3 daily 77W in this route in future?

The current UK - India bilateral agreement states:
- Maximum 56 weekly flights on UK carrier between London Heathrow and Mumbai/Delhi (combined)
- Maximum 56 weekly flights on India carrier between London Heathrow and Mumbai/Delhi (combined)
- Unlimited number of flights between all other UK airports and all airports in India
- Unlimited nunber of flights between all other Indian airports and all airports in UK

So in Summer 2020:
- UK 56 weekly of which
- British Airways - 35 (21 BOM, 14 DEL)
- Virgin Atlantic - 14 (7 BOM, 7 DEL)
- Unallocated - 7

- India 56 weekly of which
- Air India - 21 (7 BOM, 14 DEL)
- Unallocated - 35

lightsaber wrote:

sabby wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

What is the yawn:
It is important to note here that domestic airlines have not fully utilised 80 percent of their capacity entitlements on overseas routes, but foreign carriers have utilised their bilateral rights.


How about creating a hub at a high O&D city with
1. Low taxes (fuel) and fees
2. Great ground transportation to/from the airport
3. An excellent airport experience (space per passenger), international to International connection experience as well as domestic connections)
4. Infrastructure for fast growth when there is an opportunity to expand.

I see huge potential for Indian aviation growth. The ULCC expansion shiws much of the growth is on the low end where keeping control of costs is King. A 30% fuel tax adds 12% to 15% to the cost of flying, which is more than the profit!

I see an opportunity to:

1. Take the Kangaroo route from Dubai
2. Hub EU to SE Asia
3. Hub China/other Asia to Africa

At least 25% of the seats at this development stage on International travel should be international to International connections. Forfeiting those seats has out India at a huge disadvantage.

For example, LHR slots for India are plentiful. Do an EK like frequency to the hub. Feed tourist destinations, Australia, New Zealand, and much better connections via narrowbody not only India secondary cities (50+ new airports planned), but many of the existing and new Malaysian, Thailand, and Indonesian secondary airports.

Then build up secondary EU cities...

It amazes me such an obvious gap in the air transport network is taxed out of possibility.

Lightsaber

Indian airports are struggling to cope up with it's own O/D passengers growth. Creating a super-hub for transit is never gonna fly. I do agree about eventual need of creating hubs outside DEL/BOM when the international traffic goes much higher but that's for India O/D passengers.

If struggling, build infrastructure.

lightsaber wrote:

I disagree on Indian only. Bypassing International to International is forfeiting a huge opportunity. Today a market far larger than Indian International. It would seed the growth of the proposed hub.

Look at how many routes Dubai serves that are 15+ years away that Indian passengers would have to use an outside of India hub. Why not seed the service with foreign money? It would also help India's trade balance.

Lightsaber

edealinfo wrote:

SeanM1997 wrote:

binayak wrote:

IIRC BA is seat restricted to BOM and DEL. What's the seat limit ?
Is there any scope for them to have 3 daily 77W in this route in future?

The current UK - India bilateral agreement states:
- Maximum 56 weekly flights on UK carrier between London Heathrow and Mumbai/Delhi (combined)
- Maximum 56 weekly flights on India carrier between London Heathrow and Mumbai/Delhi (combined)
- Unlimited number of flights between all other UK airports and all airports in India
- Unlimited nunber of flights between all other Indian airports and all airports in UK

So in Summer 2020:
- UK 56 weekly of which
- British Airways - 35 (21 BOM, 14 DEL)
- Virgin Atlantic - 14 (7 BOM, 7 DEL)
- Unallocated - 7

- India 56 weekly of which
- Air India - 21 (7 BOM, 14 DEL)
- Unallocated - 35

Super information. Thank you.

Looks like Virgin should look to get the last remaining 7 LHR slots or else BA might have an eye on it. Couldn't BA start a flight to CCU. It is the only major city in India to which it doesn't have a connection. Ahmadabad would likely be a better fit but does Ahmadabad airport support wide body operation?The gujjus should have a lot of money so filling the premium cabin shouldn't be as much a problem a sit would be for CCU.

SeanM1997 wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

SeanM1997 wrote:

Couldn't BA start a flight to CCU. It is the only major city in India to which it doesn't have a connection. Ahmadabad would likely be a better fit but does Ahmadabad airport support wide body operation?The gujjus should have a lot of money so filling the premium cabin shouldn't be as much a problem a sit would be for CCU.

Calcutta is not high yield enough, and passengers can easily connect at other points to reach Heathrow.