binayak
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:04 pm

unrave wrote:
These BOM/DEL flights are exact replacements of erstwhile Jet Airways' flights with even the same timings.


As you say this , I hope someone takes over 9W's morning BOM-LHR flight . I'm a bit disappointed that VS timed it's BOM flight at midnight along with other EU carriers . Morning flights to EU are always more popular than the rest .
AI has done a good job by launching morning BOM-FRA with onward connections to US .
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:08 pm

binayak wrote:
unrave wrote:
These BOM/DEL flights are exact replacements of erstwhile Jet Airways' flights with even the same timings.


As you say this , I hope someone takes over 9W's morning BOM-LHR flight . I'm a bit disappointed that VS timed it's BOM flight at midnight along with other EU carriers . Morning flights to EU are always more popular than the rest .
AI has done a good job by launching morning BOM-FRA with onward connections to US .

Unfortunately Jet's LHR slots now rest with Etihad, so little chance of that happening
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:33 pm

Mr.Gangwal of IndiGo has written a letter to SEBI alleging lack of corporate governance at the airline over the recent years, blaming it on the other promoter and his company's control over the airline, seeking an intervention from the regulator for the same. Seems like a full blown public fight now. Nothing to hide anymore.

https://m.economictimes.com/markets/sto ... 145629.cms

Link to the tweet where the full letter written by Mr.Gangwal to SEBI and many senior ministers of the govt.:
https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status ... 27712?s=19
 
vadodara
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:40 pm

avier wrote:
unrave wrote:
These BOM/DEL flights are exact replacements of erstwhile Jet Airways' flights with even the same timings.

The cause apparently for the airline's demise, per posters on here..wink. And now other airlines are filling up those same routes, so there definitely was a lucrative market there unlike what people on here make up, saying the real market was elsewhere.
AI is using those same alloted bilaterals for some other almost untouched routes by Indian carriers like IDR/CCU-DXB. So nothing was stopping these three LCC's on doing the same by using their newly alloted bilateral. Instead they are throwing capacity at the two major metros mostly to Gulf and South-east Asia, replicating 9W.


Are u suggesting that 9W was very badly managed?
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:03 pm

vadodara wrote:
Are u suggesting that 9W was very badly managed?

I was suggesting more so that the markets they served were not responsible for their demise, since competitors are keen to fill up the exact same markets over any other with limited bilateral rights available to them. So false claims of where the most lucrative markets are, should end on these forums.
WWWAS -peace.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:18 pm

unrave wrote:
binayak wrote:
unrave wrote:
These BOM/DEL flights are exact replacements of erstwhile Jet Airways' flights with even the same timings.


As you say this , I hope someone takes over 9W's morning BOM-LHR flight . I'm a bit disappointed that VS timed it's BOM flight at midnight along with other EU carriers . Morning flights to EU are always more popular than the rest .
AI has done a good job by launching morning BOM-FRA with onward connections to US .

Unfortunately Jet's LHR slots now rest with Etihad, so little chance of that happening


huh - BA is launching those exact same flights BOM-LHR. I think when they launch, the timings are a bit different but then it changes to daily with almost the same timings of Ket's 9am BOM-LHR flight.
And I agree, I loved that flight. I also loved that Jet offered 3X BOM-LHR. Now BA does (which I never fly). Oh well. At least VS has a BOM-LHR flight again!
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:22 pm

avier wrote:
avier wrote:
Spicejet will be adding a second daily BOM-DXB flight from August 3, 2019:
SG005 BOM0905 – 1110DXB 737 D
SG006 DXB1210 – 1705BOM 737 D

avier wrote:
GoAir announces seven new international routes, starting July 19th onwards:
Mumbai – Abu Dhabi
Mumbai – Bangkok
Mumbai – Muscat
Delhi – Abu Dhabi
Delhi – Bangkok
Kannur – Dubai
Kannur – Kuwait


IndiGo announces 3rd Daily BOM - DXB effective 25th July 2019. The schedule is as below:
6E 83 BOM - DXB 1230 1405
6E 84 DXB - BOM 1505 2005

Indian LCC's continue to add int'l flights from BOM/DEL mostly, much like what 9W did (a reason small town residents hated the airline for, on here). The big two cities continue to be the most attractive markets for all airlines, be it on domestic or int'l.


You hit the nail on the head. So weird that people saw it as a zero sum game - that a BOM add was somehow taking away from fill in the blank small Indian city. Also hating Jet for that was also misplaced. There are so many reasons India has poor aviation connectivity and Jet airways was by no means the main issue. But you can't win that argument here. Let's see who runs to those gold mines (small cities). And as another poster said, small cities are actually worse off because there is no airline dubbed in BOM. But hey Air Arabia can always start new flights to SHJ - so there is hope.
 
vadodara
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:12 pm

avier wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Are u suggesting that 9W was very badly managed?

I was suggesting more so that the markets they served were not responsible for their demise, since competitors are keen to fill up the exact same markets over any other with limited bilateral rights available to them. So false claims of where the most lucrative markets are, should end on these forums.
WWWAS -peace.


For better or for worse 9W is dead so not sure which the false claims are you referring to.
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:12 am

vadodara wrote:
For better or for worse 9W is dead so not sure which the false claims are you referring to.

Read the posts again, and see what's being discussed. The user above you seems to have got it, you don't apparently after multiple tries. Unless you're intentionally diverting the topic elsewhere now by talking of 9W being dead or alive.

Route viability and market preference of airlines has been highlighted.
 
Xetron
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:50 am

Another incident involving Spicejet.

SpiceJet technician gets stuck in aircraft's landing gear door at Kolkata airport, dies.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 151751.cms
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:42 am

Xetron wrote:
SpiceJet technician gets stuck in aircraft's landing gear door at Kolkata airport, dies.

That's gruesome. Spicejet seems to be going through a dark phase.
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:47 am

Vistara to go international next month, with daily flights on:
Delhi - Singapore
Mumbai - Singapore

Official announcement expected soon.
 
binayak
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:21 am

avier wrote:
Vistara to go international next month, with daily flights on:
Delhi - Singapore
Mumbai - Singapore

Official announcement expected soon.


What happened to the planned DEL CMB?
Although Vistara is an excellent airline , using a320s for BOM /DEL to SIN will be a disappointment given its parent is using some of the best products in these routes. I hope they deploy the 787-9 in both once they get them.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
sabby
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:55 am

binayak wrote:
avier wrote:
Vistara to go international next month, with daily flights on:
Delhi - Singapore
Mumbai - Singapore

Official announcement expected soon.


What happened to the planned DEL CMB?
Although Vistara is an excellent airline , using a320s for BOM /DEL to SIN will be a disappointment given its parent is using some of the best products in these routes. I hope they deploy the 787-9 in both once they get them.

Well, using narrow body aircraft would give them significant cost/price advantage over other full service carriers. I'd also guess the timing would be more for O&D traffic as opposed to late night SQ flights which are driven for connections.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:18 pm

avier wrote:
Vistara to go international next month, with daily flights on:
Delhi - Singapore
Mumbai - Singapore

Official announcement expected soon.

Vistara is scheduled to get a spanking new A320 aircraft this month, and next month, presumably before this service starts . maybe they will configure the NEW aircraft to higher standards (personal entertainment system, etc)????

Separately, they were also allowed flying rights to Bangkok but have not yet announced the route.

Also note that air India has decided NOT to utilize Jet’s route from Pune to Singapore. Vistara should push the Government to reallocate the rights so it could operate the route but I am sure SpiceJet and Indigo would also fight for the piece of that action.
 
binayak
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:36 pm

sabby wrote:
binayak wrote:
avier wrote:
Vistara to go international next month, with daily flights on:
Delhi - Singapore
Mumbai - Singapore

Official announcement expected soon.


What happened to the planned DEL CMB?
Although Vistara is an excellent airline , using a320s for BOM /DEL to SIN will be a disappointment given its parent is using some of the best products in these routes. I hope they deploy the 787-9 in both once they get them.

Well, using narrow body aircraft would give them significant cost/price advantage over other full service carriers. I'd also guess the timing would be more for O&D traffic as opposed to late night SQ flights which are driven for connections.


That's right but in a premium route like say DEL-SIN , what will be better for FSC ? Having the best product to attract more premium flyers or go for lower cost ( though not as low as LCCs in the route) and thus be at a competitive disadvantage compared to other FSCs in the route?
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
killswitch13
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:30 am

From Frankfurt, Lufthansa to operate 747-8I instead of A380 to Delhi from 29MAR20
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:30 am

avier wrote:
Vistara to go international next month, with daily flights on:
Delhi - Singapore
Mumbai - Singapore

Official announcement expected soon.

Vistara's international flights to Singapore from Delhi/Mumbai to commence from 6th August onwards.

Will be operated on ex-Jet-Airways Boeing 737-800 aircraft with two-class business and economy.

https://m.timesofindia.com/business/ind ... 169029.cms

Schedule: https://twitter.com/airvistara/status/1 ... 40640?s=19
Last edited by avier on Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
sabby
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:35 am

binayak wrote:
sabby wrote:
binayak wrote:

What happened to the planned DEL CMB?
Although Vistara is an excellent airline , using a320s for BOM /DEL to SIN will be a disappointment given its parent is using some of the best products in these routes. I hope they deploy the 787-9 in both once they get them.

Well, using narrow body aircraft would give them significant cost/price advantage over other full service carriers. I'd also guess the timing would be more for O&D traffic as opposed to late night SQ flights which are driven for connections.


That's right but in a premium route like say DEL-SIN , what will be better for FSC ? Having the best product to attract more premium flyers or go for lower cost ( though not as low as LCCs in the route) and thus be at a competitive disadvantage compared to other FSCs in the route?


As a customer, I'd definitely agree with you. However, if you look at the fares between DEL/BOM and SIN, they are hardly high enough to generate enough profit, especially with widebody cost and 50% more seats to fill. Most of the India-SIN traffic on SQ consists of connecting pax to Australia/NZ as they have near monopoly on those routes and the price is significantly higher (most of the time even higher than many India-US routes!). SQ is one of the best airlines in the world and other heavyweight airlines can't compete, it'd be silly for UK to try that, especially with brand new widebody aircraft. They can and will find better non-stop routes for the 789s where competitions would be less and yield would be higher.
 
FligtReporter
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:23 am

UK will be flying 738s,not surprised given the economy and Business will probably be more apealing in the TEST phase of their intl expansion.I like how smart and careful the UK group is and which is not unusual given its a product of two brands who know how to be profitable without compromising their class and thats the reason I believe they will have have a very bright and long future.

Good Luck Team UK
 
binayak
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:02 am

sabby wrote:

As a customer, I'd definitely agree with you. However, if you look at the fares between DEL/BOM and SIN, they are hardly high enough to generate enough profit, especially with widebody cost and 50% more seats to fill. Most of the India-SIN traffic on SQ consists of connecting pax to Australia/NZ as they have near monopoly on those routes and the price is significantly higher (most of the time even higher than many India-US routes!). SQ is one of the best airlines in the world and other heavyweight airlines can't compete, it'd be silly for UK to try that, especially with brand new widebody aircraft. They can and will find better non-stop routes for the 789s where competitions would be less and yield would be higher.


Agreed on the fare part. They're too low to sustain a WB. However if tomorrow SQ sells DEL / BOM SIN tickets on its A380/ B777 and on UK 737s , that'll be a product disparity. Unlike what generally happens in JVs, same fares can't be charged on UK and SQ.
If not a WB, at least UK can try the a321s (assuming they'll have PTVs and lie flat J) here. With connections to Australia that might be doable.
IIRC even 9W could operate 2x daily 77Ws on BOM SIN because of onward connections on QF, their codeshare partner.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:16 am

binayak wrote:
Agreed on the fare part. They're too low to sustain a WB. However if tomorrow SQ sells DEL / BOM SIN tickets on its A380/ B777 and on UK 737s , that'll be a product disparity. Unlike what generally happens in JVs, same fares can't be charged on UK and SQ.
...
IIRC even 9W could operate 2x daily 77Ws on BOM SIN because of onward connections on QF, their codeshare partner.

There is currently an overall shortage of seats to Singapore from BOM/DEL due to 9W disappearance and AI downgauge to A320's since their 787's are out of service. There is an O&D market between the two countries, and it's not all just connections . Do note it's one of Asia's major financial centres.
And just like you pointed out how 9W could use a WB to serve the route since they fed QF flights to AUS/NZ, Vistara would be in an even better position to serve this market using WB's since its parent co. & major codeshare partner SQ's home turf with its massive hub there. So they'd be able to fill up their flights on a WB better then 9W/AI, by carrying a lot of traffic to connect onwards on its parent group companies.
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:33 am

^Also to point out that Star Alliance group is almost completely dominating the India- Singapore and India-Aus/NZ market - with SQ group (along with UK soon), Air NZ, AI & Thai - carrying the chunk of the traffic.
Only disappointing part is SQ hasn't formed close cooperation with AI. AI and Air NZ do some connections still.
 
sabby
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:14 pm

binayak wrote:
Agreed on the fare part. They're too low to sustain a WB. However if tomorrow SQ sells DEL / BOM SIN tickets on its A380/ B777 and on UK 737s , that'll be a product disparity. Unlike what generally happens in JVs, same fares can't be charged on UK and SQ.
If not a WB, at least UK can try the a321s (assuming they'll have PTVs and lie flat J) here. With connections to Australia that might be doable.
IIRC even 9W could operate 2x daily 77Ws on BOM SIN because of onward connections on QF, their codeshare partner.


I'm sure UK would eventually use widebody aircraft in regional premium routes once it is much bigger with large widebody fleet and healthy finance. For now, they are being prudent and I commend them for it. Once they see more demand and get the A321s, they'd use them. For day time flights of 4-5 hours, flat beds are not necessary. Even SQ use 737 (no PTV, recliner J) on several cities for additional daily flights via MI (some of them even red eye) and I have heard nothing but good words about MI. As an aviation enthusiast, I want UK to succeed and grow as India badly need a good world class FSC but it will take time. Don't want another IT fiasco.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:33 pm

sabby wrote:

For day time flights of 4-5 hours, flat beds are not necessary. .


And how is this relevant when both of Vistara’s Flights to Singapore leave around midnight and run through the dead of the night?

Your analogy is like suggesting pant shorts for summer for someone living in the Polar circle.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:24 pm

edealinfo wrote:
sabby wrote:

For day time flights of 4-5 hours, flat beds are not necessary. .


And how is this relevant when both of Vistara’s Flights to Singapore leave around midnight and run through the dead of the night?

Your analogy is like suggesting pant shorts for summer for someone living in the Polar circle.


And for a 5 hour day flight I absolutely will pick narrow bodies with flat beds. The BOM/DEL-SIN route has SQ on it. Why would anyone want to fly a narrow body without flat beds (if your company is paying)? On a personal trip buying a cheaper Vistara J class on the route, sure. Indian carriers needs to look at flat beds on narrow bodies. Look at AA 321 transcons and Copa. Great examples
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:20 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
sabby wrote:

For day time flights of 4-5 hours, flat beds are not necessary. .


And how is this relevant when both of Vistara’s Flights to Singapore leave around midnight and run through the dead of the night?

Your analogy is like suggesting pant shorts for summer for someone living in the Polar circle.


And for a 5 hour day flight I absolutely will pick narrow bodies with flat beds. The BOM/DEL-SIN route has SQ on it. Why would anyone want to fly a narrow body without flat beds (if your company is paying)? On a personal trip buying a cheaper Vistara J class on the route, sure. Indian carriers needs to look at flat beds on narrow bodies. Look at AA 321 transcons and Copa. Great examples

I think Vistara really blew this big time. They have two brand new A320 aircraft coming in (one in July and the other in Aug) which they could have have used as a showpiece to the media of their hard core international product. instead, they offer a tired ex-Jet plane. Go figure!
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:48 pm

From the Economic Times
Indigo in deep $$it

NEW DELHI: The government wants market regulator Sebi to probe role of all board members and every entity associated with the two main promoter groups of InterGlobe Aviation and take strict action for all wrongdoings, officials said.
There are indications about violations of corporate governance, fair market trade and insider trading rules and the regulator needs to probe role of each and every entity associated with all board members and promoter-linked entities, according to the officials.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:08 am

edealinfo wrote:
From the Economic Times
Indigo in deep $$it

NEW DELHI: The government wants market regulator Sebi to probe role of all board members and every entity associated with the two main promoter groups of InterGlobe Aviation and take strict action for all wrongdoings, officials said.
There are indications about violations of corporate governance, fair market trade and insider trading rules and the regulator needs to probe role of each and every entity associated with all board members and promoter-linked entities, according to the officials.



here is the link for the story:

Boy, Viman's (Mungherilal's) worst nightmare has just turned true...

The rot at IndiGo could run much deeper
Government wants Sebi to get deeper into IndiGo spat, expand probe to all board members
The govt has asked Sebi to probe role of all board members and every entity linked to promoters' groups.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 181102.cms
 
sibibom
Posts: 368
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:08 am

Indigo's drama is an ego issue between the two promoters, the only end I see is one of them exiting. I think Qatar Airways is going to get an early Christmas miracle, they might get into Indian aviation with Indigo/
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:14 am

sibibom wrote:
Indigo's drama is an ego issue between the two promoters, the only end I see is one of them exiting. I think Qatar Airways is going to get an early Christmas miracle, they might get into Indian aviation with Indigo/


That's an interesting angle which I had not thought of. Well done on thinking ahead.
 
Sokes
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:40 am

edealinfo wrote:


It says:
"Bhatia and his affiliates (IGE Group) has around 38 per cent stake while Gangwal along with his affiliates have about 37 per cent shareholding in InterGlobe Aviation. ...
Among the issues flagged by him (Gangwal) are that various related party transactions with the IGE Group were executed without seeking the audit committee's approval and without seeking competitive bids from third parties ... . "

From the Economic times paper (not digital), 11.7.19, titled "Now Indigo promoters spar over EY's report on related-party deals":
"Based on IndiGo's FY 18 annual report, there were related-party transactions in real estate, air transport, simulation services, ticket sale, crew accomodation and transportation, and software.
In most cases, a promoter's company was leasing/ renting out services to the airline."

That's cool.
Loose 38% of an amount and win 100% of that amount at the same time.
Obviously not so cool for the guy who owns the 37% or other shareholders.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
zionite
Posts: 70
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:33 am

Sokes wrote:
edealinfo wrote:


It says:
"Bhatia and his affiliates (IGE Group) has around 38 per cent stake while Gangwal along with his affiliates have about 37 per cent shareholding in InterGlobe Aviation. ...
Among the issues flagged by him (Gangwal) are that various related party transactions with the IGE Group were executed without seeking the audit committee's approval and without seeking competitive bids from third parties ... . "

From the Economic times paper (not digital), 11.7.19, titled "Now Indigo promoters spar over EY's report on related-party deals":
"Based on IndiGo's FY 18 annual report, there were related-party transactions in real estate, air transport, simulation services, ticket sale, crew accomodation and transportation, and software.
In most cases, a promoter's company was leasing/ renting out services to the airline."

That's cool.
Loose 38% of an amount and win 100% of that amount at the same time.
Obviously not so cool for the guy who owns the 37% or other shareholders.


Related party transactions are common business practices in India. We do it all the times... :white:

Bhatia, an Indian resident, has all the interest in running the airline and all its supporting activities. Gangwal, a US resident and citizen, has interest in Indigo only and has clearly said he is not interested in taking full control of the airline. Seems sulking Gangwal will exit pretty soon. Bhatia would happily take up about 12% shares to bring his share to 50% and remaining 25% sold to Qatar or maybe even Turkish Airlines.

Gangwal should have remained silent, take advantage of high share price and exit silently.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:53 pm

It looks like the Pak airs cape issue isn’t going to be resolved since Pak has cleverly upped the game and India would lose face if it backs down. Since Air India has lost over 500 crores in extra fuel it makes one wonder if it was worth the 19 pine trees.

My question now is whether a New Delhi to Dubai flight involves a diversion from a normal route. If so, Vistara, which was to start that route, may choose not to Unless fares are high enough to offset the extra fuel costs.


ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has told India that it will not open its airspace for commercial flights until New Delhi removes its fighter jets from forward IAF airbases, Pakistan's Aviation Secretary Shahrukh Nusrat has informed a parliamentary committee.”
 
User avatar
unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:33 pm

IndiGo is launching daily flights on BOM-KWI wef 5AUG19. BOM joins MAA and AMD to become the third Indian city to be connected with KWI by 6E
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1018
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:53 pm

edealinfo wrote:
It looks like the Pak airs cape issue isn’t going to be resolved since Pak has cleverly upped the game and India would lose face if it backs down. Since Air India has lost over 500 crores in extra fuel it makes one wonder if it was worth the 19 pine trees.

My question now is whether a New Delhi to Dubai flight involves a diversion from a normal route. If so, Vistara, which was to start that route, may choose not to Unless fares are high enough to offset the extra fuel costs.


ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has told India that it will not open its airspace for commercial flights until New Delhi removes its fighter jets from forward IAF airbases, Pakistan's Aviation Secretary Shahrukh Nusrat has informed a parliamentary committee.”


This is a dangerous game of one ups man ship. I think Pak is wrong to keep this going. India opened airspace awhile ago. Pak had the opportunity to show its people it was tough but at some point you have to back down. By placing conditions they know India will never agree to, India has to do something. India will and should escalate back. Like I said before if you weaponize airspace what is next water? The cycle never ends.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:59 pm

edealinfo wrote:
From the Economic Times
Indigo in deep $$it

NEW DELHI: The government wants market regulator Sebi to probe role of all board members and every entity associated with the two main promoter groups of InterGlobe Aviation and take strict action for all wrongdoings, officials said.
There are indications about violations of corporate governance, fair market trade and insider trading rules and the regulator needs to probe role of each and every entity associated with all board members and promoter-linked entities, according to the officials.


While I want India to be free of "rot" as you said in another post, I think the timing of this could have been better. India needs stability in aviation. Jet is gone and investigations will stop people even buying it in bankruptcy (first ever in my mind), AI to be privatized (we know this will mean protests and drama), Indigo being investigated, Spice flaunting their BJP connections as they have safety issues that should make everyone nervous. I mean really. But let me guess people still think Indian aviation is a ok. Indian aviation is growing IN SPITE of itself. Meaning it's airlines and aviation policy have failed it but the economy continues to grow and connectivity is so desperately needed that the clown show of an aviation industry still sees good growth. At some point it will catch up. I pray the airlines and the GOI get their act together soon.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:13 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
From the Economic Times
Indigo in deep $$it

NEW DELHI: The government wants market regulator Sebi to probe role of all board members and every entity associated with the two main promoter groups of InterGlobe Aviation and take strict action for all wrongdoings, officials said.
There are indications about violations of corporate governance, fair market trade and insider trading rules and the regulator needs to probe role of each and every entity associated with all board members and promoter-linked entities, according to the officials.


While I want India to be free of "rot" as you said in another post, I think the timing of this could have been better. India needs stability in aviation. Jet is gone and investigations will stop people even buying it in bankruptcy (first ever in my mind), AI to be privatized (we know this will mean protests and drama), Indigo being investigated, Spice flaunting their BJP connections as they have safety issues that should make everyone nervous. I mean really. But let me guess people still think Indian aviation is a ok. Indian aviation is growing IN SPITE of itself. Meaning it's airlines and aviation policy have failed it but the economy continues to grow and connectivity is so desperately needed that the clown show of an aviation industry still sees good growth. At some point it will catch up. I pray the airlines and the GOI get their act together soon.



I am speculating that the Government is going after Indigo for some or all of the following :

1) For Indigo questioning and lodging a complaint that they did not get adequate exJet Airways slots. Indigo stated that the Government was in violation of its own rules which called for slots to be allocated by Available Seat Kilometers for which Indigo is the undisputed King. so, the Government May have wanted to teach Indigo a lesson for publicly embarrassing the Government

2) officials in the Government are taking sides in the promoter feud.

3) the Government cannot ignore letters and evidence of impropriety especially when the Government has accused Naresh Goyal of exactly that. This move helps cover their backside.

4) The Govenment hates Mungherilal’s chachas.
 
hohd
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:14 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
It looks like the Pak airs cape issue isn’t going to be resolved since Pak has cleverly upped the game and India would lose face if it backs down. Since Air India has lost over 500 crores in extra fuel it makes one wonder if it was worth the 19 pine trees.

My question now is whether a New Delhi to Dubai flight involves a diversion from a normal route. If so, Vistara, which was to start that route, may choose not to Unless fares are high enough to offset the extra fuel costs.


ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has told India that it will not open its airspace for commercial flights until New Delhi removes its fighter jets from forward IAF airbases, Pakistan's Aviation Secretary Shahrukh Nusrat has informed a parliamentary committee.”


This is a dangerous game of one ups man ship. I think Pak is wrong to keep this going. India opened airspace awhile ago. Pak had the opportunity to show its people it was tough but at some point you have to back down. By placing conditions they know India will never agree to, India has to do something. India will and should escalate back. Like I said before if you weaponize airspace what is next water? The cycle never ends.


If Pak continues this blockage then India will have to start restricting Pak commercial flights and also all commercial flights to/from Pakistan through India's air space. Some kind of dialogue needs to take place, perhaps through some one like US or EU nations to intervene. Otherwise the United flights will remain suspended and DL will not start any flights to India soon. AI of course would have a monopoly on India-US routes but they are also hurt since their base is in DEL and DEL is the most affected.
 
COEWR787
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:59 pm

I think the Middle East three are the net winners out of this India-Pak kerfuffle and its effect on Pak airspace availability.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:42 pm

COEWR787 wrote:
I think the Middle East three are the net winners out of this India-Pak kerfuffle and its effect on Pak airspace availability.

But don’t the ME3 also lose access to the same airspace? So, how could they win?
 
vadodara
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:42 pm

avier wrote:
vadodara wrote:
For better or for worse 9W is dead so not sure which the false claims are you referring to.

Read the posts again, and see what's being discussed. The user above you seems to have got it, you don't apparently after multiple tries. Unless you're intentionally diverting the topic elsewhere now by talking of 9W being dead or alive.

Route viability and market preference of airlines has been highlighted.


Among others claims for Class F/J services were also being made.

What diversion are you referring to? Even if say a Vistara replaces all of the Class F/J seats, it still proves my point.
 
Sokes
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:54 pm

zionite wrote:
Sokes wrote:
From the Economic times paper (not digital), 11.7.19, titled "Now Indigo promoters spar over EY's report on related-party deals":
"Based on IndiGo's FY 18 annual report, there were related-party transactions in real estate, air transport, simulation services, ticket sale, crew accomodation and transportation, and software.
In most cases, a promoter's company was leasing/ renting out services to the airline."

That's cool.
Loose 38% of an amount and win 100% of that amount at the same time.
Obviously not so cool for the guy who owns the 37% or other shareholders.


Related party transactions are common business practices in India. We do it all the times... :white:


I believe it is a problem for potential investors if such things happen. Though to a lesser degree most countries have transactions in companies which benefit the main promoter at the cost of other shareholders. There are reasons why the super rich always get richer.

zionite wrote:
Bhatia, an Indian resident, has all the interest in running the airline and all its supporting activities. Gangwal, a US resident and citizen, has interest in Indigo only and has clearly said he is not interested in taking full control of the airline. Seems sulking Gangwal will exit pretty soon. Bhatia would happily take up about 12% shares to bring his share to 50% and remaining 25% sold to Qatar or maybe even Turkish Airlines.

Gangwal should have remained silent, take advantage of high share price and exit silently.


The main promoter cheats the other investors and you say the second most important investor should have remained silent. I don't know what to say.

I do not understand the point you try to make about Indian versus American citizen. When the Soviet Union collapsed Russia as well as former satellite states had to decide what to do with government owned enterprises. Czechoslovakia (now Czech Republic) decided to give Skoda to a foreign company. Russia decided to give Ilyushin and other state owned companies to Russian oligarches.
It's not like Ilyushin prospered because the new owner loved his nation while the workers of Skoda got exploited because the new owner was a foreign capitalist bloodsucker.
Why would an engineer or an unskilled cleaner bother which nationality his employer has? What is important is that well paid jobs are created.

Why does it seem that Gangwal will exit pretty soon?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
binayak
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:09 pm

vadodara wrote:
avier wrote:
vadodara wrote:
For better or for worse 9W is dead so not sure which the false claims are you referring to.

Read the posts again, and see what's being discussed. The user above you seems to have got it, you don't apparently after multiple tries. Unless you're intentionally diverting the topic elsewhere now by talking of 9W being dead or alive.

Route viability and market preference of airlines has been highlighted.


Among others claims for Class F/J services were also being made.

What diversion are you referring to? Even if say a Vistara replaces all of the Class F/J seats, it still proves my point.


Your "points" in the last few weeks :

1. "9W's int'l routes were unprofitable" : ... proved wrong as international carriers are replacing them one by one !

2. " Real market exists beyond BOM/ DEL " : Proved wrong ! Even Indian LCCs are re-launching the ex 9W int'l routes . They're flying to gulf from BOM not STV !

Hilarious that you still say your points have been "proved" . BTW even WWWAS chaps don't show up on twitter nowadays .
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:11 pm

Related party transactions happen all the time and that is not an issue per se. The problem arises when RPTs are not done at arm's length. While I agree with Gangwal's demand that IndiGo should ideally call an open tender, the share of RPTs in this case is too small at only 0.5% of the airline's revenues. I don't see what the big brouhaha is all about. Perhaps Gangwal is jealous that Bhatia now gets to call all the shots despite owning only 1% more stake. Nevertheless it will be an interesting corporate battle to follow in the coming weeks and months.

About Gangwal's exit - if his demands do not go through he can resign from the board. I don't see him offloading his stake to any outside investor.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
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WingsFan
Posts: 320
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:09 pm

It seems the airspace closure will continue for a long time. I cannot imagine a scenario where India will agree to Pakistan's demand of withdrawal of forward placed fighter aircraft along its border.

“The Indian government approached asking us to open the airspace. We conveyed our concerns that first India must withdraw its fighter planes placed forward,” Nusrat told the Senate Standing Committee on Aviation.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 188801.cms
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:46 pm

If you look at the live routes of airlines flying directly between DEL (New Delhi) and DXB (Dubai), you will see that they completely avoid Pakistan! Basically, first flying south west, and then west. What a waste the diversion from the normal route causes. I hope Vistara will avoid the route and instead focus on BOM to DXB or some other city (AMD? Pune? BLR?) to DXB.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:59 am

edealinfo wrote:
If you look at the live routes of airlines flying directly between DEL (New Delhi) and DXB (Dubai), you will see that they completely avoid Pakistan! Basically, first flying south west, and then west. What a waste the diversion from the normal route causes. I hope Vistara will avoid the route and instead focus on BOM to DXB or some other city (AMD? Pune? BLR?) to DXB.


Answering my own question:
Vistara is likely to announce a Mumbai-Dubai flight soon. Services between Delhi-Bangkok and Delhi-Kathmandu are also on the cards.

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 286_1.html
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:37 pm

It appears that the Government has reallocated all of Jet's Mumbai and New Delhi slots as a new list of available slots (see below) has been released, and DEL and BOM are not on it. First, wow! That went fast. Second, if all the Jet slots at BOM have already been reassigned, how come BOM is still 100 flights short of what it was before Jet was grounded? Third, what happened to Jet's dead in the night 3 am domestic flight slots. Who picked that up and who would even want it?

Fourth, of the available Jet slots, I am surprised that there are so many at Chennai. Isn't that a hot place to fly to (relatively)? But which cities would make sense to connect to Chennai if BOM and DEL can't be the ones? Maybe that's the core issue? If I were in Vistara's shoes, I would say start 3X daily between Pune and Chennai and grab the slots in these relatively "hot" places. Fifth, if all BOM and DEL slots have been reallocated, the real UNDISPUTED winner, by a big margin, is SpiceJet. Although they experienced some safety issues recently, if they can avoid a major safety issue, net net, they have made the sharpest move in Indian aviation history (acquiring a large number of ex-Jet slots at capacity restricted BOM and DEL airports).

Sixth, if Pakistan refuses to open up its airspace, where would Vistara base its 787s for flights to Europe/USA? BOM doesn't seem to have the slots (unless some dead of the night ones are available) and DEL would involve route diversions because of closed Pak airspace. Flying to Australia from DEL is attractive but Singapore Airlines, their partner, probably won't allow them to. That leaves DEL to Japan but isn't there enough capacity and ANA and JAL are soon starting flights from Japan to Chennai and BLR, respectively.

Comments?

AVAILABLE EX-JET SLOTS

Chennai: 34
Indore: 18
Guwahati: 12
Ahmedabad: 8
Lucknow: 12
Jodhpur: 10
Pune: 10
Vadodara: 10 slots
Calcutta: 8

Unused slots at other airports - List A: Allahabad, Amritsar, Aurangabad, Bagdogra, Bhopal, Bhuj, Chandigarh, Coimbatore, Dehradun, Goa, Imphal, Jaipur and Khajuraho

Unused slots at other airports - List B: Calicut, Leh, Mangalore, Port Blair, Rajkot, Srinagar, Trivandrum, Udaipur and Varanasi

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 174389.cms
Last edited by edealinfo on Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:51 pm

"Vistara said the existing Airbus A320 planes in its fleet are not suited to fly nonstop to Singapore and hence, Boeing 737 aircraft is being used for operation."

How can this be true? Could someone please explain why Vistara's A320 and A320NEO technically cannot do DEL or BOM to Singapore? Or, is the issue not a technical one, but rather a marketing/sales issue?

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 286_1.html

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