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hohd
Posts: 755
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:26 pm

avier wrote:
avier wrote:
GoAir to launch new flights :
Hyderabad- BLR X2 /IXC/PAT starting August 15

GoAir new flight launches in August, with two new rotations including above:
Hyderabad- Bengaluru x2/ Chandigarh/ Patna
Hyderabad - Kochi x2/ Chennai/ Jaipur


HYD airport is bursting in seams with new services, and is No. 4 in India (Dom+Intl) passengers. The airport is not yet slot constrained and may not be for a long time in the future after the second runaway is fully open, but the domestic terminal is becoming very congested.
 
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unrave
Posts: 2575
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:38 pm

hohd wrote:
avier wrote:
avier wrote:
GoAir to launch new flights :
Hyderabad- BLR X2 /IXC/PAT starting August 15

GoAir new flight launches in August, with two new rotations including above:
Hyderabad- Bengaluru x2/ Chandigarh/ Patna
Hyderabad - Kochi x2/ Chennai/ Jaipur


HYD airport is bursting in seams with new services, and is No. 4 in India (Dom+Intl) passengers. The airport is not yet slot constrained and may not be for a long time in the future after the second runaway is fully open, but the domestic terminal is becoming very congested.

The present terminal is being expanded on either side
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:43 pm

hohd wrote:
avier wrote:
avier wrote:
GoAir to launch new flights :
Hyderabad- BLR X2 /IXC/PAT starting August 15

GoAir new flight launches in August, with two new rotations including above:
Hyderabad- Bengaluru x2/ Chandigarh/ Patna
Hyderabad - Kochi x2/ Chennai/ Jaipur


HYD airport is bursting in seams with new services, and is No. 4 in India (Dom+Intl) passengers. The airport is not yet slot constrained and may not be for a long time in the future after the second runaway is fully open, but the domestic terminal is becoming very congested.


excellent news and thanks for sharing. A progressive attitude towards taxation on aviation fuel is now demonstrating its potential.
 
avier
Posts: 866
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:55 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Will the Moody Government bail out Air India OR let things play out so people can see why Sir India needs to be sold or shut down?

Lohani must be calling in favors from all the politicians that he has hobnobbed with to ensure Sir India is back on its feet.

If govt. wanted to truly bail out AI, that would have reflected in this fiscal year's budget. So would likely be the latter option you state.
Mr. Lohani wouldn't give two hoots where the airline ends up. This mess is not his making and he can't undo it either. So spare him.
This is likely directed at the other stakeholders (employees,etc) to get in line and realise govt. can pull the plug on AI and have it grounded, just like it did to 9W. Lohani held a meeting with all union leaders recently over disinvestment/privatisation plans of the airline, and they all point blank objected to it.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:57 pm

avier wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Will the Moody Government bail out Air India OR let things play out so people can see why Sir India needs to be sold or shut down?

Lohani must be calling in favors from all the politicians that he has hobnobbed with to ensure Sir India is back on its feet.

If govt. wanted to truly bail out AI, that would have reflected in this fiscal year's budget. So would likely be the latter option you state.
Mr. Lohani wouldn't give two hoots where the airline ends up. This mess is not his making and he can't undo it either. So spare him.
This is likely directed at the other stakeholders (employees,etc) to get in line and realise govt. can pull the plug on AI and have it grounded, just like it did to 9W. Lohani held a meeting with all union leaders recently over disinvestment/privatisation plans of the airline, and they all point blank objected to it.


My recommendation for a logical approach is as follows:
1. Sell the profitable parts of AI first....
Air India Express
AI-SATS
AI Engineering

2. Sell or close the non profitable subsidiaries:
E.g. Alliance Air

3. Sell full service AI international

4. Sell AI domestic by routes. For instance, BOM and DEL operations could be sold to the highest bidder who would get X planes, Y employees and all the slots at those airports. Then continue with the operations at other airports.

5. What’s not sold should be shut and one time losses booked.
 
BrooklyBOMgal
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:16 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:23 pm

There...so simple. AI sold. Which world are you in?
 
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unrave
Posts: 2575
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:57 pm

edealinfo wrote:

My recommendation for a logical approach is as follows:
1. Sell the profitable parts of AI first....
Air India Express
AI-SATS
AI Engineering

2. Sell or close the non profitable subsidiaries:
E.g. Alliance Air

3. Sell full service AI international

4. Sell AI domestic by routes. For instance, BOM and DEL operations could be sold to the highest bidder who would get X planes, Y employees and all the slots at those airports. Then continue with the operations at other airports.

5. What’s not sold should be shut and one time losses booked.

This is the most logical way to go about it and I suspect even the cabinet knows this. But political compulsions may come in the way of financial prudence
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:44 pm

BrooklyBOMgal wrote:
There...so simple. AI sold. Which world are you in?


And, what is your recommendation? Because, oh, “things will be so hard”, Do nothing I suppose.... just Like the advisors the Government had for 2017 and the prior 25 years. You’ll were so helpful. *wink*

I have zero respect for the nay-sayers.

I have respect for Moody’s attempt to sell Air India. even though he failed, he tried, and that in itself is a major accomplishment. The fact that he isn’t giving up, deserves even more respect. Thankfully he doesn’t take advice from nay-sayers
 
vadodara
Posts: 919
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:09 pm

edealinfo wrote:
avier wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Will the Moody Government bail out Air India OR let things play out so people can see why Sir India needs to be sold or shut down?

Lohani must be calling in favors from all the politicians that he has hobnobbed with to ensure Sir India is back on its feet.

If govt. wanted to truly bail out AI, that would have reflected in this fiscal year's budget. So would likely be the latter option you state.
Mr. Lohani wouldn't give two hoots where the airline ends up. This mess is not his making and he can't undo it either. So spare him.
This is likely directed at the other stakeholders (employees,etc) to get in line and realise govt. can pull the plug on AI and have it grounded, just like it did to 9W. Lohani held a meeting with all union leaders recently over disinvestment/privatisation plans of the airline, and they all point blank objected to it.


My recommendation for a logical approach is as follows:
1. Sell the profitable parts of AI first....
Air India Express
AI-SATS
AI Engineering

2. Sell or close the non profitable subsidiaries:
E.g. Alliance Air

3. Sell full service AI international

4. Sell AI domestic by routes. For instance, BOM and DEL operations could be sold to the highest bidder who would get X planes, Y employees and all the slots at those airports. Then continue with the operations at other airports.

5. What’s not sold should be shut and one time losses booked.


Even NG had a mindset of entitlement; why would AI employees who have been fed this longer think differently.
 
vadodara
Posts: 919
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:10 pm

binayak wrote:
vadodara wrote:
avier wrote:
Read the posts again, and see what's being discussed. The user above you seems to have got it, you don't apparently after multiple tries. Unless you're intentionally diverting the topic elsewhere now by talking of 9W being dead or alive.

Route viability and market preference of airlines has been highlighted.


Among others claims for Class F/J services were also being made.

What diversion are you referring to? Even if say a Vistara replaces all of the Class F/J seats, it still proves my point.


Your "points" in the last few weeks :

1. "9W's int'l routes were unprofitable" : ... proved wrong as international carriers are replacing them one by one !

2. " Real market exists beyond BOM/ DEL " : Proved wrong ! Even Indian LCCs are re-launching the ex 9W int'l routes . They're flying to gulf from BOM not STV !

Hilarious that you still say your points have been "proved" . BTW even WWWAS chaps don't show up on twitter nowadays .


9W is bankrupt and STV is still growing!

Looks like your point has been proven!
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:11 am

Total Europe-India capacity is set to fall by 20% this winter.

Europe-India airlines not yet filling the Jet Airways gap

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... gap-482601
 
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CPS001
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:05 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:49 am

Pakistan airspace is open to all commercial traffic.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2099
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:53 am

CPS001 wrote:
Pakistan airspace is open to all commercial traffic.

After some very traumatic time Indian Aviation is out of the blues now. Most capacity lost to 9W has been restored and Pak airspace is open now. Icing on the cake will be the bumper Q1 earnings that airlines are going to report soon
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2575
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:02 am

anshabhi wrote:
CPS001 wrote:
Pakistan airspace is open to all commercial traffic.

After some very traumatic time Indian Aviation is out of the blues now. Most capacity lost to 9W has been restored and Pak airspace is open now. Icing on the cake will be the bumper Q1 earnings that airlines are going to report soon

True dawn will be when AI is off taxpayers' backs
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
adi00654
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:40 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:01 am

anshabhi wrote:
CPS001 wrote:
Pakistan airspace is open to all commercial traffic.

After some very traumatic time Indian Aviation is out of the blues now. Most capacity lost to 9W has been restored and Pak airspace is open now. Icing on the cake will be the bumper Q1 earnings that airlines are going to report soon


Pakistan airspace would be missing those 9W flights,Indeed very relief for Indian Aviation sector moreover we can expect the ticket prices reducing slightly mainly i have seen the INDIA-US sector prices are hefty and one of many reasons is airlines taking detour and 9W issue.

All Air India DEL/EU bound flights are now using the normal old route towards the Lahore FIR. US bound flights would be from Wednesday early morning non stop outbound to US.(ORD,JFK,IAD).
 
srkSJC
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:15 am

Sokes wrote:
srkSJC wrote:
Unrave - I cannot help but laugh at the comments and sublime snide remarks thrown at you. Let me give my inside view on how these things work out so that the lesser brethren can understand the whole issue in a somewhat holistic way.. ( No pun intended to anyone and much less to three or four people trying to question you- so kindly do not take offence at my choice of words but the message has to be delivered hence, .......)

In any related party transaction there are many aspects involved. The very first is the relative ease by which a requestor company can take the benefit of a service from a party which is within its domain of operations ...

Laughing is healthy, so good choice.
What I learned about a fruit market in Goa: The sellers have the telephone number of the guys from the real wholesale market in Belgaum. They phone Belgaum and the Belgaum wholesellers send the fruits.
Suppose all these dealers would be in a group: where is the advantage?


srkSJC wrote:
In any related party transaction there are many aspects involved. The very first is the relative ease by which a requestor company can take the benefit of a service from a party which is within its domain of operations ( in this case domain of operations means group of companies working under a common corporate identity but varied commercial interests). So for example a shipping company ( shipping liner) company like Mitsui OSK lines also owns a telcom service provider say for example SK Telecom ( NOTE : SK group is actually South Korean and is not owned by Mitsui&Co.). So for all varied needs of Mistsui OSK lines SK telecom is the best bet since it is within their own group.


How does this relate to Indigo? The disputed transactions are with companies from one promoter, not from the group.

Obviously you have more knowledge of law than most of us "lesser brethren". What we get upset about is a conflict of interest.
I don't care what the law says. I wouldn't like to make business with somebody who is utterly blind for conflict of interests.


It is related to Indigo when you replace Mitsui with Interglobe and SK Telecom with Indigo airlines. I agree on the ethics and good practices but Novotel is not that bad choice either- quality wise or price wise. And they have a global reach. RG group has raised some valid points but in practice and approach neither of the parties even came within a sniffing distance of suffering loss. My take is that IGE group pushed for these RPT in a sense that RG group cannot be a activist participant( i dont agree with this approach if this is actually true) and persisted ahead with it. But as Sibbibom mentioned it is clear that Qatar Airways is waiting in the wings and in exchange for not getting extra bilaterals who knows GoI may increase FDI in aviation to 82 % or more with minimal or no restriction on substantial control of company being not necessarily Indian. This helps Air India, Jet Airways and Indigo Airlines....Plus Vistara gets SQ managements, SpiceJet gets awash with cash.....Maybe this was stage managed or maybe we are not sensing the crystal ball here......My two paise theory on this.
 
srkSJC
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:18 am

edealinfo wrote:
srkSJC wrote:
unrave wrote:

I am sorry you can't identify an opinion without it being explicitly spelt out. I will keep this in mind when I respond to you in future.
Now if you go back to read my comments you will realise that I never claimed they are "governed by solid rules put in place to ensure misdoings wouldn't happen". You seem to think that the very existence of RPTs point to something sinister. Let me reiterate: no, RPTs are common, you'll find them everywhere if you look.


Edited to expand the points.


Unrave - I cannot help but laugh at the comments and sublime snide remarks thrown at you. Let me give my inside view on how these things work out so that the lesser brethren can understand the whole issue in a somewhat holistic way.. ( No pun intended to anyone and much less to three or four people trying to question you- so kindly do not take offence at my choice of words but the message has to be delivered hence, .......)

In any related party transaction there are many aspects involved. The very first is the relative ease by which a requestor company can take the benefit of a service from a party which is within its domain of operations ( in this case domain of operations means group of companies working under a common corporate identity but varied commercial interests). So for example a shipping company ( shipping liner) company like Mitsui OSK lines also owns a telcom service provider say for example SK Telecom ( NOTE : SK group is actually South Korean and is not owned by Mitsui&Co.). So for all varied needs of Mistsui OSK lines SK telecom is the best bet since it is within their own group. Best rates and other benefits cannot be obviously undermined or less emphasized upon. And a Shipping Line has a continuous and extensive need for telecommunications services all the time.

Second is the issue of Taxation, specifically Income Tax Act. All related party transactions whether or not they are carried out by listed entities or unlisted entities need to have a distinct Transfer Pricing audit ( in this case of Indigo Airlines it should be Domestic Transfer Pricing Audit assuming that overseas operations are not covered in this 'expose' letter of RG group{I have not read the letter but followed what Anish Majumdar of Business Standard and Aditi Phadnees of Hindu Business Line have reported}). In any Transfer Pricing Audit ( THIS IS actually separate from the Statutory Audit under Companies Act 2013[As amended till date]) the auditor will look into multiple aspect of the fairness of the related party transaction and the extent of the involvement of parties. There are multiple thresholds when this will attract the provisions of the regulating statutory provisions - each of them being exclusive of each other ( meaning SEBI rules will undertake a different inquiry from what Income Tax Act will inquire into). As far as Income Tax Act is concerned there are some set percentage limits under which there would not be legally permissible Domestic Transfer pricing transactions. What this entails is that if legally permissible Domestic Transfer pricing is not allowed then TDS has to be deducted and all such transactions need to be probed for arms length pricing compliance{ important factors to note here- rules governing TDS applicability, legally permissible domestic transfer pricing is dependent upon many rules, amendments and rulings of ITAT[Income TAX Appellate Tribunal], High Courts and Supreme Court}.

Thirdly, the Companies Act 2013 lays down elaborate guidelines as to how to carry out a related party transactions, how to classify it, how to report it and then how to ensure that proper compliance is being undertaken at all times. The Key Managerial Personnel or KMP which consists of Chief Executive officer, Chief Financial officer, Company Secretary, Chief Legal officer ,Audit COmmittee are all equally responsible for adhering to these norms. In fact they have to collectively sign off on all these compliance every quarter or every year (this is dependent upon the turnover of the company as to when the filings are done). In addition to this, the staututory auditor and the internal auditor ( now they are to be rotated under new MCA rules, and have to be different firms) also verify and cross check all such related party transactions EVERY QUARTER and submit their findings to the Audit Committee and then later to Board of Directors as the case may be. If the findings are adverse and the Audit Committee and/or the Board is unable to satisfy the findings or the queries raised, the statutory Auditor or the internal auditor are mandated by Law to qualify such findings {these auditor qualifications remain a public record when the annual balance sheet is uploaded to MCA21 portal}. These findings are then subject to external scrutiny or corrections as the case may be. The Board of Directors are also required to answer to the auditor qualifications in the Directors Statement of the Audited Balance Sheet, with specific reference to the P/L account. These qualifications once so done cannot be removed even if the Board or the Senior Management disagrees[though the responses will be recorded].

Finally coming to the SEBI Rules, there are some very elaborate arrangements that the market regulator has laid down when it talks about related party transactions. Some of these are the value of these agreements in relation to the overall turnover, nature of the transactions, effect of the transactions, period and manner of payment, frequency of the payments, equity structure of the parties involved in the related party transactions. One thing which is very common to both MCA and SEBI ( THIS IS ALSO IN THEIR RESPECTIVE STATUTES - Companies Act 2013 and SEBI Act - is that when the Board takes a decision on the RPT[related party transactions] it is to be seen - Who in the respective Boards of the two companies entering into RPT have equity ownership in excess of 15% in either or each of these parties , when the RPT proposal is being discussed or being taken into consideration. Any one having a direct or 'presumed influence' need to recuse themselves from such deliberations. So taking my example, when Director A who is on the board of SK Telecom having an equity ownership of 16% in Mitsuit & Co will recuse himself when the RPT is being discussed and put to vote in Mitsui&Co. Similar would be the case for Director B having equity ownership in SK Telcom{note that it is assumed that in both these instances Director A and Director B will have board positions in Mitsui&Co and SK Telecom}.

NOTE- the respective thresholds of equity ownership, or having board position or having management presence or not is subject to multiple layers of exclusions and restrictions applicable for a variety of reason. Several amendments have been carried which have excluded or included many companies from complying with these rules but the essence is explained above.

This rule of having the necessity of calling for mandatory bids when RPT are discussed is actually not engraved in stone. There is certain degree of latitude which the management can use to sustain effective business operations. While some of the points raised in rebuttal from IGE group is very true that since it is a very restricted number as compared to the total percentage of Gross Revenue(or Total Revenue if we are using exact balance sheet terms) so it does not amount to any transgression of law much less an intentional one. One way companies try to engage in this to seek bids from competitors for financial year 1 and then match it with the RPT bid. Usually the RPT bid is always lower (for variety of reasons which i cannot explain here for sake of brevity). After financial year 1, for financial year 2 , only a cursory email sent to the previously participating competitors can elicit their bid numbers{without running again a bid} and then they can simply match or refuse the price quoted by RPT party. This way the compliance is both achieved and effective commercial operations are not hampered.

Apart from these points, there are many other interwoven critical issues of law and corporate complainces which involve, regulate and administer the RPT, management participation of financial records, business ethics, corporate governance and reasonable shareholder scrutiny in the affairs of the administration of a company. While we can criticise or take sides in this debate or debacle(depending upon the side of the fence we mind booking our seats on) , all the above points in addition to the many unknown issues need to be examined.

DISCLAIMER: I have drafted many RPT and cost sharing agreements between group companies of past employer. I was also signing authority on the compliance confirmation to both internal auditor and statutory auditor for about 6 years. I was also Management representative in these meetings with internal audit and statutory audit {this included final statement approval of the Board in response to Auditor observations, and Auditor qualifications}.


All your rules and regulations, while on paper are BS in reality. See the latest ruling on the Essar case. The judge made his own rule of treating operational creditors the same as secured creditors. apologists for the judge will claim it is “one off” . sure (rolling my eyes. Time and again we have seen legal decisions in India not grounded in law, but what the judge personally deems as best in his assessment of what’s good and bad.

You must have learned in the 11th Standard that a secured creditor holds a higher standing than an unsecured creditor. probably even a law is not required because it is common sense. but now we will have a case that is pursed all the way to the Supreme Court wasting everyone’s time and money so it can rule when something on paper is supposed to mean what it says or not, and whether common sense applies.

And guess what, the judge who made the nonsensical decision will not be removed from his position so the process will repeat itself .

If you are a lawyer or other professional who spent years in college studying rules and regulations, you should know by now that it was all an utter waste and you would have had a much better chance with judges if you studied psychology (in dealing with them).


i agree on this point. But law often does not function as it is written. My experience (gleaned from my peers who have appeared in this very case !!) is that law is evolving but by and large it is functioning in a better fashion than other statutes. So have some patience and it leads to a better outcome. These are minor wrinkles and will be ironed out....
 
srkSJC
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:23 am

edealinfo wrote:
hohd wrote:
avier wrote:
GoAir new flight launches in August, with two new rotations including above:
Hyderabad- Bengaluru x2/ Chandigarh/ Patna
Hyderabad - Kochi x2/ Chennai/ Jaipur


HYD airport is bursting in seams with new services, and is No. 4 in India (Dom+Intl) passengers. The airport is not yet slot constrained and may not be for a long time in the future after the second runaway is fully open, but the domestic terminal is becoming very congested.


excellent news and thanks for sharing. A progressive attitude towards taxation on aviation fuel is now demonstrating its potential.


As an old timer i remember Air Sahara Chief Executive Rono Dutta ( Same as the current 6E boss now) said that Hyderabad is going to be the hub for Air Sahara going forward. This was on the launch press conference of Air Sahara London Flight....How that panned out....Air Sahara went up in smoke and then swallowed 9W. Hyderabad become a world beater in Airport rankings but could not surpass BOM or DEL or BLR...or even MAA...feel sad for this airport.. it has the true potential for a giant hub for Indian carriers for whole of APAC and ASEAN. Wonder what is keeping it back....
 
srkSJC
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:30 am

unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

My recommendation for a logical approach is as follows:
1. Sell the profitable parts of AI first....
Air India Express
AI-SATS
AI Engineering

2. Sell or close the non profitable subsidiaries:
E.g. Alliance Air

3. Sell full service AI international

4. Sell AI domestic by routes. For instance, BOM and DEL operations could be sold to the highest bidder who would get X planes, Y employees and all the slots at those airports. Then continue with the operations at other airports.

5. What’s not sold should be shut and one time losses booked.

This is the most logical way to go about it and I suspect even the cabinet knows this. But political compulsions may come in the way of financial prudence


Handling the pay parity and pending pay arrears for IPG and ICPA will be important. Plus the old payments to ground service personnel, and the engineering depts will be key. Cabin crew unions have lesser pull in the wage settlement. VRS or no VRS, solving staff emoluments is an important factor in all of this. If you go by the twitter feeds of many aviation journalists the employees are actually scared that Govt may not fulfill their dues and just run away in the name of national interest. After Kingfisher and Jet Airways, Paramount and then of Modiluft, Damania in the 90's they are well and wholly spooked lot. Their grouse has a point but now is the time to get out of Air India no matter what the pain is..Point is how and when....
 
srkSJC
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:33 am

adi00654 wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
CPS001 wrote:
Pakistan airspace is open to all commercial traffic.

After some very traumatic time Indian Aviation is out of the blues now. Most capacity lost to 9W has been restored and Pak airspace is open now. Icing on the cake will be the bumper Q1 earnings that airlines are going to report soon


Pakistan airspace would be missing those 9W flights,Indeed very relief for Indian Aviation sector moreover we can expect the ticket prices reducing slightly mainly i have seen the INDIA-US sector prices are hefty and one of many reasons is airlines taking detour and 9W issue.

All Air India DEL/EU bound flights are now using the normal old route towards the Lahore FIR. US bound flights would be from Wednesday early morning non stop outbound to US.(ORD,JFK,IAD).


Biggest news is when Delta touches down in Sahar......And maybe Seattle - Delhi and finally give Air Canada competition to Delhi - Vancouver route and take a shot at the Delhi- San Francisco route. But all of it is still imaginary...
 
adi00654
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:40 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:51 am

srkSJC wrote:
adi00654 wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
After some very traumatic time Indian Aviation is out of the blues now. Most capacity lost to 9W has been restored and Pak airspace is open now. Icing on the cake will be the bumper Q1 earnings that airlines are going to report soon


Pakistan airspace would be missing those 9W flights,Indeed very relief for Indian Aviation sector moreover we can expect the ticket prices reducing slightly mainly i have seen the INDIA-US sector prices are hefty and one of many reasons is airlines taking detour and 9W issue.

All Air India DEL/EU bound flights are now using the normal old route towards the Lahore FIR. US bound flights would be from Wednesday early morning non stop outbound to US.(ORD,JFK,IAD).


Biggest news is when Delta touches down in Sahar......And maybe Seattle - Delhi and finally give Air Canada competition to Delhi - Vancouver route and take a shot at the Delhi- San Francisco route. But all of it is still imaginary...


Dont expect much from Delta.First they need to make a run on their JFK-BOM starting this DEC 19.They need a partner feed in India for them to get back success in India.They had 9W which is doomed now.WE have only Vistara and AI where u can expect Vistara can be domestic transit pax feeder(only assuming).

DEL-SFO from Delta is out of question mate.We Already have AI strong on this route followed by announcement of UA from Dec 19.
 
srkSJC
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:48 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:14 am

adi00654 wrote:
srkSJC wrote:
adi00654 wrote:

Pakistan airspace would be missing those 9W flights,Indeed very relief for Indian Aviation sector moreover we can expect the ticket prices reducing slightly mainly i have seen the INDIA-US sector prices are hefty and one of many reasons is airlines taking detour and 9W issue.

All Air India DEL/EU bound flights are now using the normal old route towards the Lahore FIR. US bound flights would be from Wednesday early morning non stop outbound to US.(ORD,JFK,IAD).


Biggest news is when Delta touches down in Sahar......And maybe Seattle - Delhi and finally give Air Canada competition to Delhi - Vancouver route and take a shot at the Delhi- San Francisco route. But all of it is still imaginary...


Dont expect much from Delta.First they need to make a run on their JFK-BOM starting this DEC 19.They need a partner feed in India for them to get back success in India.They had 9W which is doomed now.WE have only Vistara and AI where u can expect Vistara can be domestic transit pax feeder(only assuming).

DEL-SFO from Delta is out of question mate.We Already have AI strong on this route followed by announcement of UA from Dec 19.


My point was on Delta using Seattle to launch flights to Delhi to make an abortive attempt at Vancouver and San Francisco markets. Seattle is growing as a formidable hub for Delta with their A-330 neo being based out of there. Maybe in 2020 winter some A-350 might as well be based there. Seattle to San Francisco and San Jose is a unexplored route which could yield money but host of factors remain to be considered. Local feed in India is a pain point. But if AI goes away then assuming the new owner is not keen on this route, Delta gets an opening....But as i said it is all imaginary.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:50 pm

srkSJC wrote:
adi00654 wrote:
srkSJC wrote:

Biggest news is when Delta touches down in Sahar......And maybe Seattle - Delhi and finally give Air Canada competition to Delhi - Vancouver route and take a shot at the Delhi- San Francisco route. But all of it is still imaginary...


Dont expect much from Delta.First they need to make a run on their JFK-BOM starting this DEC 19.They need a partner feed in India for them to get back success in India.They had 9W which is doomed now.WE have only Vistara and AI where u can expect Vistara can be domestic transit pax feeder(only assuming).

DEL-SFO from Delta is out of question mate.We Already have AI strong on this route followed by announcement of UA from Dec 19.


My point was on Delta using Seattle to launch flights to Delhi to make an abortive attempt at Vancouver and San Francisco markets. Seattle is growing as a formidable hub for Delta with their A-330 neo being based out of there. Maybe in 2020 winter some A-350 might as well be based there. Seattle to San Francisco and San Jose is a unexplored route which could yield money but host of factors remain to be considered. Local feed in India is a pain point. But if AI goes away then assuming the new owner is not keen on this route, Delta gets an opening....But as i said it is all imaginary.
have you checked if an A330 can do Seattle to DEL, direct? I think NOT.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:06 pm

srkSJC wrote:
Handling the pay parity and pending pay arrears for IPG and ICPA will be important. Plus the old payments to ground service personnel, and the engineering depts will be key. Cabin crew unions have lesser pull in the wage settlement.....
Air India has difficulty paying fuel bills and employees think they will get back pay? Wait a minute, doesn’t this sound like it was with Jet Airways. In the latter, they even demanded interest ( at commercial rates) on outstanding wages. That was a tall order given Jet’s situation. Why is Air India’s any different? I believe the Government has turned off the tap (for continued and unlined funding to fix AI’s budgetary holes).

separately, only a fool would buy Air India, as a whole corporation. The problems with unions, employees and the plethora of laws are enough to sink a privately run operation. That’s why I had suggested that The best chance for any success with AI is to sell it in parts so the good parts can be segregated from the bad. A smaller piece is also easier for the buyer to digest. The Government should think about this approach.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:07 pm

srkSJC wrote:
Handling the pay parity and pending pay arrears for IPG and ICPA will be important. Plus the old payments to ground service personnel, and the engineering depts will be key. Cabin crew unions have lesser pull in the wage settlement.....
Air India has difficulty paying fuel bills and employees think they will get back pay? Wait a minute, doesn’t this sound like it was with Jet Airways. In the latter, they even demanded interest ( at commercial rates) on outstanding wages. That was a tall order given Jet’s situation. Why is Air India’s any different? I believe the Government has turned off the tap (for continued and unlined funding to fix AI’s budgetary holes).

separately, only a fool would buy Air India, as a whole corporation. The problems with unions, employees and the plethora of laws are enough to sink a privately run operation. That’s why I had suggested that The best chance for any success with AI is to sell it in parts so the good parts can be segregated from the bad. A smaller piece is also easier for the buyer to digest. The Government should think about this approach.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:20 pm

CPS001 wrote:
Pakistan airspace is open to all commercial traffic.


So, did India back down and give into Pak’s Demand that India withdraw its fighters from the forward operating base (in exchanging for opening its airspace)? And, was it a secret agreement so the Indian Government won’t be embarrassed?
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:21 pm

edealinfo wrote:

So, did India back down and give into Pak’s Demand that India withdraw its fighters from the forward operating base (in exchanging for opening its airspace)? And, was it a secret agreement so the Indian Government won’t be embarrassed?

No.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
hohd
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:31 pm

Pak removal of airspace restrictions also benefits Indigo and Spice Jet and host of other airlines, various Afghan airlines, SQ, TG, CX, Malaysian, Biman, Aeroflot (in addition to AI, UA) etc. and of course it benefits Pakistan the most as it gives them valuable hard currency.
 
adi00654
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:40 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:45 pm

edealinfo wrote:
CPS001 wrote:
Pakistan airspace is open to all commercial traffic.


So, did India back down and give into Pak’s Demand that India withdraw its fighters from the forward operating base (in exchanging for opening its airspace)? And, was it a secret agreement so the Indian Government won’t be embarrassed?


INDIAN goverment need not be embarrassed and never it will back down to any one demands.Indian government did not even reply to the Pakistan demand of opening its airspace if its fighters are moved back.So i think no question of embaressment.India had requested to open air space earlier but it never backed down.
 
swapcv
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:34 pm

edealinfo wrote:
CPS001 wrote:
Pakistan airspace is open to all commercial traffic.


So, did India back down and give into Pak’s Demand that India withdraw its fighters from the forward operating base (in exchanging for opening its airspace)? And, was it a secret agreement so the Indian Government won’t be embarrassed?


Nothing in the media about the Govt. backing down and withrawing air assets close to the border, seems like a unilateral move from the Pak side, and I think with their weak economy, the lack of overflights was having a big hit, hence they probably "reluctantly" opened up Airspace to Indian Civil traffic.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:40 pm

edealinfo wrote:
CPS001 wrote:
Pakistan airspace is open to all commercial traffic.


So, did India back down and give into Pak’s Demand that India withdraw its fighters from the forward operating base (in exchanging for opening its airspace)? And, was it a secret agreement so the Indian Government won’t be embarrassed?

Lol it's a dream to think anyone can make fighters move away from Forward bases. If anything, new Rafaels and Tejas are going to be positioned there soon
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:48 pm

Jet Update

“In the first CoC meeting, the lenders took stock of the assets of the company, which includes six planes, spare parts, slots, Jet Privilege shares, and other intangible assets. Interestingly, the plane confiscated by Dutch authorities is also being treated as an asset”

Oh boy, they are listing as an asset something that has already been confiscated. Who would want to bid in an inherently tainted process that could be fraught with legal challenges.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:51 pm

swapcv wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
CPS001 wrote:
Pakistan airspace is open to all commercial traffic.


So, did India back down and give into Pak’s Demand that India withdraw its fighters from the forward operating base (in exchanging for opening its airspace)? And, was it a secret agreement so the Indian Government won’t be embarrassed?


Nothing in the media about the Govt. backing down and withrawing air assets close to the border.

But there is also nothing in the media that said that they didn’t do that. If there is a secret agreement “for India to withdraw the planes why would it be in the media in the first place?
 
edealinfo
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Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:53 pm

anshabhi wrote:
If anything, new Rafaels and Tejas are going to be positioned there soon


Didn’t Pak shoot down a plane and capture an Indian pilot? A Rafael plane will be far more expensive for India to replace.
 
VTORD
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:32 pm

^^The shoot down and subsequent capture was the outcome of a dog fight - a dog fight in which IAF claims to have shot down a PAF F-16 as well costing the life of a pilot.

In any case what anshabhi is trying to say is in light of Pulwama and Balakot, GoI is unlikely to agree to move any fighters out of their forward bases. And why would you automatically assume that a Rafale will be lost? The Rafale when inducted may not even need to engage in a dog fight because it has BVR capability. But let's not go down that rabbit hole here.

Coming back to Civil Aviation, chances are Pak made a financial decision. India Today was throwing around a $100 Million dollar number as a price for loss of air charges due to closure. Just checked flight radar and saw that AI127 and L761 both entered Pakistan airspace on their way west.
 
JOYA380B747
Posts: 773
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:31 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:50 am

The only thing India has changed is revert to peacetime alert status. The forward bases in the north are still active. Living near two forward bases in the East, I can indirectly say that most of the Sqdrns from here have all been relocated to the North.
India's biggest loss w.r.t global aviation (so far) - Being an Australasia-Europe stopover.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:52 am

VTORD wrote:
^^The shoot down and subsequent capture was the outcome of a dog fight - a dog fight in which IAF claims to have shot down a PAF F-16 as well costing the life of a pilot.


I don't want to start a political discussion but I believe the CIA assessment was that Pak lost 19 pine trees.
 
adi00654
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:40 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:47 am

edealinfo wrote:
swapcv wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

So, did India back down and give into Pak’s Demand that India withdraw its fighters from the forward operating base (in exchanging for opening its airspace)? And, was it a secret agreement so the Indian Government won’t be embarrassed?


Nothing in the media about the Govt. backing down and withrawing air assets close to the border.

But there is also nothing in the media that said that they didn’t do that. If there is a secret agreement “for India to withdraw the planes why would it be in the media in the first place?


There is nothing so called secret arrangement with India to withdraw the planes from forward base.India had opened airspace for Pakistan flights many days back.Earlier Pakistan needed an assurance that we would open airspace if India would not repeat Balakot Air strikes.They know India can destroy them any time.
So no question arises of secret pact and moroever don't portray that Indian Govt backed down to Pakistan etc.We don't need to and never will back down .Pakistan opened airspace since they had lost enough money and PIA is incurring losses.They country is having tough time regarding their finances.They had open and moreover it's their internal matter.

If you have any credible source regarding secret pact then put forward .
 
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CPS001
Posts: 139
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:34 am

Per Reuters, United is resuming EWR-BOM/DEL on 6th September.

https://twitter.com/ReutersIndia/status ... 0836283392
 
Malayil
Posts: 141
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:47 am

I'm as pro-Indian as any other person of Indian descent; but, I agree with edealinfo, India only shot at pine trees and didn't destroy any JEM camps. The current government was able to spin it as a success, but only India incurred losses.
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2575
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:57 am

edealinfo wrote:
But there is also nothing in the media that said that they didn’t do that. If there is a secret agreement “for India to withdraw the planes why would it be in the media in the first place?

I can assure you that India will not withdraw fighter jets from forward positions just to save a few hours' detour for civil aviation aircraft.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2099
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:46 am

Check out this tweet: https://twitter.com/TheSanjivKapoor/sta ... 3107097601

Last minute fares in India are upto 9 times cheaper than in US
 
Sokes
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:16 am

edealinfo wrote:
All your rules and regulations, while on paper are BS in reality. See the latest ruling on the Essar case. The judge made his own rule of treating operational creditors the same as secured creditors. apologists for the judge will claim it is “one off” . sure (rolling my eyes. Time and again we have seen legal decisions in India not grounded in law, but what the judge personally deems as best in his assessment of what’s good and bad.

You must have learned in the 11th Standard that a secured creditor holds a higher standing than an unsecured creditor. probably even a law is not required because it is common sense. but now we will have a case that is pursed all the way to the Supreme Court wasting everyone’s time and money so it can rule when something on paper is supposed to mean what it says or not, and whether common sense applies.

And guess what, the judge who made the nonsensical decision will not be removed from his position so the process will repeat itself .

If you are a lawyer or other professional who spent years in college studying rules and regulations, you should know by now that it was all an utter waste and you would have had a much better chance with judges if you studied psychology (in dealing with them).


My wife is Indian. That makes me son-in-law of India. Maybe I'm a disagreeable son in law, but I'm part of the family nonetheless. So I chip in.

Suppose there is rule of law: why would you pay a bribe?
For the powerful to twist and turn to their own advantage it is obligatory not to have a functioning legal system.
How to achieve that?
1) Have government fixed fees so ridiculously low that the lawyer job has not much reward for honest people.
2) Have all documents with mistakes. These mistakes can be ignored with a lawyer agreeable to bureaucrats. Indeed agreeable lawyers may be able just to
phone the bureaucrat and get the job done.
However a layer who stands against them can be endless troubled. Will customers accept the delays and pay for his effort?
Nearly all documents I have seen so far had names spelled wrong, date of issue missing, critical facts written with pencil.
In big cities a lawyer may find enough customers who don't want to bow. But in towns?
3) Lawyers mustn't be kept accountable.
Suppose a lawyer had a risk of loosing his license if he acts against the interest of his client. Could he be bribed by the powerful who know to game the
system?
4) Not enough judges.
5) Allow the guilty party to endless delay court procedures.
6) Have laws or procedures that bureaucrats can't be hold accountable.
7) Have documents which have no legal strength but are usually accepted from agreeable people. Disagreeable people will soon learn their lesson.
"Show me your document which establishes your claim? Oh, that's not the right document."
8) Have a law that nearly all creditors have to agree to send a defaulting party into bankruptcy. This way the owner of the company just needs to bribe one or two bank managers and can default without risk.

Am I pessimistic?
Not at all. My German grandfather was born around 1900. My mother told me everybody in his office avoided him. He was the only one not to accept bribes.
In the early days of the East Indian Company corruption was rampant. One guy sent to be in charge of Calcutta presidency increased salaries strongly. Corruption soon became very less, but only in Calcutta presidency.
America in the 1920s had Al Capone.

Nothing surprising that there are conflicts in the legal system. At least there is some action at the moment. And it's important not to rush with topics such as operational vs. financial creditors.
Point 8) from the list will soon be gone. Just as was the case in Germany or the US in a few decades India will be through with the list.

Indeed if I see the bravery towards Pakistan I shall be surprised if corruption can stay any longer.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:47 am

And another good book which may attribute to mature judgement about what to do with Air India:
"Accidental India" from Shankkar Aiyar

As I'm not a Hindu:
Can anybody explain to me what's the philosophical/ theological idea behind the god Shiva?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2099
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:52 am

Sokes wrote:
Can anybody explain to me what's the philosophical/ theological idea behind the god Shiva?

For college going indian kids he's the lord of weed.

Refer to wiki for everything else. He's 1 of the 3 primary god's in Hinduism. The lord of destruction. Also legend has it that River Ganges came into existence after he drank a lot of poison and purified it into a river. Lord Shiva/Bhola is a really major lord in Hinduism. Bholenath Ki Jai!
 
avier
Posts: 866
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:00 am

avier wrote:
avier wrote:
Spicejet will be adding a second daily BOM-DXB flight from August 3, 2019:
SG005 BOM0905 – 1110DXB 737 D
SG006 DXB1210 – 1705BOM 737 D

avier wrote:
GoAir announces seven new international routes, starting July 19th onwards:
Mumbai – Abu Dhabi
Mumbai – Bangkok
Mumbai – Muscat
Delhi – Abu Dhabi
Delhi – Bangkok
Kannur – Dubai
Kannur – Kuwait


IndiGo announces 3rd Daily BOM - DXB effective 25th July 2019. The schedule is as below:
6E 83 BOM - DXB 1230 1405
6E 84 DXB - BOM 1505 2005

avier wrote:
Vistara to go international next month, from 6th August onwards, with daily flights on:
Delhi - Singapore
Mumbai - Singapore


IndiGo will be starting from next month, from 22nd Aug onwards, with daily flights on:

Mumbai- Singapore
Mumbai- Bangkok
 
avier
Posts: 866
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:18 am

^With this there will be 8 daily flights from Mumbai- Bangkok, and one daily on Mumbai-Phuket.
 
Sokes
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:21 am

anshabhi wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Can anybody explain to me what's the philosophical/ theological idea behind the god Shiva?

For college going indian kids he's the lord of weed.

Cool! Humor is also important. I was laughing out loud.
Anybody with theological inclination here for a philosophical answer?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
binayak
Posts: 959
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:51 pm

avier wrote:

IndiGo will be starting from next month, from 22nd Aug onwards, with daily flights on:

Mumbai- Singapore
Mumbai- Bangkok


BOM SIN once again. Well best of luck to them this time. Is there any possibility of a Mumbai - Chengdu in future by 6E given they're launching one from DEL ?
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - July 2019

Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:19 pm

edealinfo wrote:
binayak wrote:
avier wrote:

IndiGo will be starting from next month, from 22nd Aug onwards, with daily flights on:

Mumbai- Singapore
Mumbai- Bangkok


BOM SIN once again. Well best of luck to them this time. Is there any possibility of a Mumbai - Chengdu in future by 6E given they're launching one from DEL ?


Why wouldn’t Indigo fare well on the Mumbai to Singapore route? Aren’t SpiceJet, Air India, Vistara and Go(?) already operating or will be operating on the route? What gives one of these Indian airlines an advantage over the other in operating this route?

Also, isn’t the capacity between Indian metros and Singapore restricted because the bilateral has been exhausted. Doesn’t that itself result in an advantage?
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